Nickel-63 to Copper-63 Nuclear Thermal Energy Supply

tahanson43206 · 2023-12-27 08:04:58

This topic flows from study of the Ni-63 to Cu-63 transition, carried out in another topic to investigate electric supply.

It turns out that collection of direct electricity from this transition is possible but difficult, while production of thermal energy is simple and reliable.

A small part of the thermal energy can be captured for electricity production, and that would be useful.

This topic is offered for those members of the forum who might wish to contribute to a collection of knowledge/insights/tips/rules-of-thumb to guide future readers who might be interest in this or related studies.

The form factor under consideration is a standard shipping container 8 feet by 8 feet by 20 feet.

The range of energy released by a beta emission from a Nickel-63 atom while transitioning to Copper-63 is wide, because a neutrino is emitted at the same time. The range between the maximum value and the average shows up in tons. I asked ChatGPT4 to estimate the tons of Nickel-63 needed to produce a megawatt of electric energy, and it came up with 44.39 tons. Calliban observed this result, and pointed out that the average value would yield an tonnage on the order of 171 tons. ChatGPT4 then acknowledged the error, recomputed the tonnage using the best information it could find from published sources on the Internet and came up with 165 tons.

The difference between 171 and 165 tons is not worth worrying about. The result means that the original concept of packaging a direct electricity production system in a standard shipping container is not going to be possible because all the equipment needed to harvest electrons is far more massive than the Nickel itself.

However! if the objective is changed from direct production of electricity to traditional dumb thermal energy, then the picture changes. It might well be possible to package that 1 MW supply in the standard pod, if the space remaining is allocated to pipes that allow liquid to flow through the mass. This topic is offered for those NewMars members who might be interested in developing this concept for use on Earth, on Mars, or anywhere in the Solar System.

Production of Nickel-63 is NOT within the scope of this topic. The assumption going into ** THIS ** topic is that the problem has been solved. The purpose of ** this ** topic is to explore and to document how this substance might be most effectively used if only the dumb thermal energy is exploited.

Side note: There may be a hybrid option ... direct production of electricity might be a side venture within the dumb thermal structure. For example, the walls of the container might be fitted with electronics capable of capturing beta emissions directly, and that might produce a small reliable current flow, and ** that ** might be sufficient to insure the reliable flow of liquid through the thermal energy collection pipes.

Update 2023/12/28 .... Post #6 reports on a work session that shows the starting allocation of Ni-63 is 3.5 tons to yield 20 Kw at start and 14 Kw after 50 years.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 58#p217758

A great deal more work is required to turn this discovery into an industry:
1) Manufacture of Ni-63
2) Assembly at a factory
3) Shipment while keeping cool (ie, redirecting thermal energy)
4) Installation while keeping cool
5) Operation while keeping cool
6) Removal from operation while keeping cool
7) Return to factory while keeping cool
8) Disassembly and reprocessing at factory (70% of the original charge will remain after 50 years)

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-12-27 08:05:32

This post is reserved for an opening discussion with ChatGPT4 ....

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-12-27 09:54:23

AS we see there is almost always a couple of ways to view the information coming out to a solution. The desired outcome can be thermal or electrical and this topic shares many of the same starting points in using the decay of isotopic materials to make it happen. The rate of decay helps as well as material selection is part of the determining factors to be considered for the design and its use their in.

Other topic has been renamed for outcome to be electrical as a starting point of its first post.
Nickel-63 to Copper-63 Nuclear Electrical Battery

To that end parts of each of Calliban's posts are relative to each topic's outcome for the design.

SpaceNut · 2023-12-27 18:07:44

A thermal energy source is not the same as an electrical that a Generac generator would do. Since we need to convert it to make use of it even if we are using the same value.

a (very small) nuclear power station may produce 3kWh(th) of heat energy from the reactor that is used to heat the water to create steam to drive the turbines. However the turbines only product 1kWh(e) electrical energy indicating that 2 kWh of energy is lost in the electrical generation process.

That means 3 x the value of electrical is needed from thermal to be equal.

Combined heat and power (CHP), also known as cogeneration, produces both electricity and thermal energy on-site

CHpt 14A.1 Thermal Energy, Heat and Temperatur

Chpt 11.1 Temperature and Thermal Energy

https://www.researchgate.net/post/How_i … er_in_kWth

https://www.unitconverters.net/energy-converter.html

https://www.convertunits.com/from/kWh/t … +heat+unit

https://solarthermalworld.org/news/sola … are-metre/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_thermal_unit
1 kWh to celsius heat unit = 1895.63428 celsius heat unit

https://www2.lehigh.edu/news/engineers- … plications

SpaceNut · 2023-12-27 19:42:24

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut re thermal energy supply ....
A thermal energy supply would be able to provide a maximum of (about a third) of the output energy delivered as electric current.
The size supply I'm working on is 14 Kw, because that is a popular size for home backup devices made by Kohler and Generac.
As you've pointed out in recent posts in other topics, a user of such a system would be lucky to get 1/3, or about 4 Kw of usable electricity.
In one of your posts you mentioned 2 Kw as a usage you might have recorded at your home.
However, that might not include heating for air for the home, and water for various uses.
One application that might be possible, if you had 10 Kw of thermal energy constantly available, is a neighborhood hot springs business.
That idea might work better in a Northern latitude that has more winter and less summer.
Another option that practically anyone could use is to deliver the excess thermal energy into the water underground, where it would be available for retrieval via heat pump if necessary.
An example for application of such a capability might be melting ice on the driveway or sidewalks, which would otherwise be unaffordable for most folks.
Update later:
I asked Google about the efficiency of KRUSTY, which uses stirling engine technology to drive a generator ...
The thermal power of the test ranged from 1.5 to 5.0 kW(thermal), with a fuel temperature up to 880°C. Each 80-W(electric)–rated Stirling converter produced ~90 W(electric) at a component efficiency of ~35% and an overall system efficiency of ~25%.
Results of the KRUSTY Nuclear System Test - Taylor & Francis Online
www.tandfonline.com › ... › List of Issues › Volume 206, Issue sup1
About Featured Snippets
That figure of 25% is interesting, because it shows performance of a system not too different from the one we're talking about in the Nickel-63 topics.
If the target output is 14 Kw, then 25% of that is a bit over 3 Kw for electric supply, and that would appear to meet most of the household electrical supply needs.
The balance of 11+ Kw of thermal energy would be available for heating or for processing water to remove impurities or other similar applications.
Whatever can't be used by the customer has to be fed to the air or to the water underground.
(th)

The Krusty uses a Stirling electrical generator that is giving 10kwhr with 30 kw(th) being radiated by the heat pipe thermal fin system to mars air that allows for the cooling to form a solid that drops back to the heat source being created by HUE nuclear materials.

All I have been doing is searching and reading the information that I am looking to find answers for.

Much of the issues are units of measurement and how they corelate to the desired outcome.

tahanson43206 · 2023-12-27 22:45:22

For SpaceNut re #5 and support for topic in general...

I've just finished a multi-hour series with ChatGPT4 ... we ended up in a good place, but both of us were on the ropes at various points.

There is an art to asking questions, and I am a long way from mastering that art....

The bottom line is that if we start with 3.5 tons of Ni-63, we have a furnace substitute that lasts for 50 years. it produces 20 Kw at the start, and is still producing 14 Kw at the end of that 50 years. ChatGPT4 found that most furnaces (gas, oil or electric) all perform within those values.

The benefit of a 50 year furnace is that there are no costs for fuel over that 50 years. The external heat delivery system (fans and ducts) is still needed.

I've had to replace my furnace three times and the AC twice, and I understand that is pretty typical.

Speaking of AC ... this isn't an AC system, so it wouldn't help with that.

The conversion of thermal energy to electrical power looks iffy ... ChatGPT4 calculated that water that passes through the system at the rate of one liter per second only rises in temperature by five degrees, but that figure needs a closer look. i'm not sure of the distance traveled by that liter of water. We have 20,000 joules of thermal energy to start with, so it should be possible to harness that but I'll defer to someone who knows a lot more than I do.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-12-28 09:56:18

The formula used to convert square feet to tons is as follows:

Tons (T) = Area * Thickness / 12 * Density

https://chemlin.org/isotope/nickel-63

https://www.isotopes.gov/sites/default/ … /Ni-63.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel

https://www.theworldmaterial.com/density-of-metals/

Various Metals Density, g/cm3 Density, kg/m3 Density, lb/in3 Density, lb/ft3
Nickel 8.90 8,902 0.322 556

It appears it can be formed into a film.

tahanson43206 · 2023-12-28 10:41:17

For SpaceNut re #7

Your insight about manufacturing the Ni-63 in thin panels is timely!

The power pod needs to be manufactured so that there is ample (ie, plenty) of pathways for capture of thermal energy. The thin panels might resemble slices of swiss cheese. The thin sheets of material is important, because the layers of material needed to capture as many of the beta particles directly as possible need to be close to the emitting material.

The quantity of Ni-63 needed to make a 20 Kw power supply is 3.5 tons, but that can be manufactured in thin swiss cheese-like sheets.

It would be helpful to be able to capture as much as 50% of the energy as electric current, because that can be stored or sold to the grid, whereas thermal energy has to be used immediately for heating or just wasted.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-12-28 11:11:15

Good suggestions of aspects to explore for how to create

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut re planning for Ni-63 industry ...
Please start thinking about how we might organize topics in the forum to support development of a global and eventually Solar system-wide industry based upon the reliable heating and energy storage capability of Ni-63.
It seems to me that our Economy topic might be the best fit for creating topics that would help to organize thinking about the several aspects of the new industry.
Topics might include:
A great deal more work is required to turn this discovery into an industry:
1) Manufacture of Ni-63
2) Assembly at a factory
3) Shipment while keeping cool (ie, redirecting thermal energy)
4) Installation while keeping cool
5) Operation while keeping cool
6) Removal from operation while keeping cool
7) Return to factory while keeping cool
8) Disassembly and reprocessing at factory (70% of the original charge will remain after 50 years)
9) Security, Government relations, Public relations, other topics
(th)

We know that a thermal device would have built information similar to the RTG devices with a system of capture of the thermal heat and storage for the device. It would most likely be contained below ground level in a concrete vault and covered to provide a layer of protection.

tahanson43206 · 2023-12-28 12:35:34

For SpaceNut re #9

Thanks for your post, and for pointing out two of the major concerns for this initiative.

I'd like to focus on beta particles. You could (if you have time (and I know your time is limited)) help our readers by explaining what a beta particle is, and what danger such particles might pose. I understand (as just one example) that a sheet of paper can block beta particles. however, in this case, it is to the advantage of the business to capture every beta particle so it's electrical energy, or it's thermal energy can be sold to the customer. The business will have NO interest in allowing beta particles to escape capture. The system should fit comfortably into the basement of a home, or a garage, like a home freezer, which also uses electrons to perform it's operations.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-12-28 14:58:57

Was talking protection from both the decay particles and for security once install to make it less plausible for terrorist or thieves to steal the system from a concrete vault.

Not sure of the method for a panel build for thermal pipe design for how thick it needs to be..

Alpha, Beta, Gamma How Radiation Sickness Works

be careful when looking for information as my Norton's just detected intrusion attack... on site 4. staminacomfort .com

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/radiation/isotopes.html

https://www.epa.gov/radiation/radiation-basics

Appears sheet aluminum thickness of foil is all that is needed.

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-01 07:09:27

This topic is now closed.

While Ni-63 has many benefits as a material for service to the home consumer, the rarity of the isotope required to make it argues against it's use.

This conclusion is consistent with a prediction of Calliban, that Ni-63 would be suitable for niche applications on a very small scale.

An example of such an application might be a power supply for a space probe that is intended to last for 100 Earth years or more.

Ni-63 will still be producing after 100 years, because the half life is 100.1 years.

This inquiry is now closed.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2024-01-01 07:39:02

No reason to stop the thinking of the how to do or knowledge gathering planning on the best method for a design and manufacturing. Sure, it's going to be slow, but the status can be monitored as the many topics we have here.

Here are some more technical links.

this one is for electrical
Optimal Semiconductors for 3H and 63Ni Betavoltaics

Betavoltaic power sources based on the conversion of radioisotope energy to electrical power are considered an appealing option for remote applications due to extended period of operation and high energy densities. However, to be competitive with other power sources, their efficiency must be increased.

Ni-63 Radionuclide Fact Sheet

For thermal its a chuck that is milled to the desired shape to cause heat to be expelled.

NewMarsMember · 2024-01-01 08:19:43

For SpaceNut re #13

Thanks for your support of this inquiry! It turned out that the isotope needed to make Ni-63 is rare on Earth. It costs $17,000 per ton to procure pure Nickel (99.8%-99.9%) but Ni-62 is only 3.6% of the average ton as sold in pure form.

It would cost over a million USD to accumulate the 3.5 tons needed to make the 20 Kw battery.

Calliban suggested the substance might be suitable for niche applications such as deep space probes,so I agree that further study is appropriate, but the application for home heating is closed.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-13 19:37:31

Here is a nice follow up to the topics created in the forum for Nickel-63...

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/tiny-radioac … 38318.html

TechRadar
A tiny radioactive battery could keep your future phone running for 50 years
James Ide
Fri, January 12, 2024 at 12:45 PM EST·3 min read
14 comments
Close up of Betavolt nuclear battery .
A Chinese company has developed a new nuclear battery that could keep your phone running for 50 years without charging.
Betavolt Technology claims to have successfully miniaturized atomic energy batteries, which measure less than a coin at 15 x 15 x 5mm. The compact battery uses 63 nuclear isotopes to generate 100 microwatts and a voltage of 3V of electricity through the process of radioactive decay.
The battery is currently in the pilot testing stage and Betavolt plans to mass-produce them for commercial devices like phones and drones, but also states nuclear batteries could be used for aerospace equipment, AI, medical equipment, advanced sensors, and micro-robots. The Beijing-based company claims to have drawn inspiration from devices such as pacemakers, and satellites.
Betavolt is planning to boost its tech to produce a 1-watt battery by 2025. And while it still has some way to go, the company seems confident stating development is way ahead of European and American scientific research institutions and enterprises.
Tiny nuclear batteries
Image 1 of 3
size of the nucleat BV100 Betavolt battery next to a coin
Image 2 of 3
Breakdown of the elements used to create the BV100 Betavolt nuclear battery
Image 3 of 3
Close up of the nuclear battery BV100 created by Chinese company Betavolt
This technology could revolutionize electronics by removing the need for chargers or portable power banks altogether creating devices that run continuously and whose batteries do not degrade in terms of capacity and lifespan over charging cycles in the way Li-ion batteries do.
It could even prove to be safer too, as Betavolt states that the BV100 will not catch fire or explode in response to punctures or even gunshots, unlike some current batteries that can be unsafe if damaged or when exposed to high temperatures.
Such unlimited power could provide drones that fly continuously, phones that run constantly, and electric cars that don’t require recharging.
Currently nuclear batteries are used for spacecraft, underwater systems, automated scientific stations as well as crafts like the Mars rover, but they are large, heavy, and generate a lot of heat, as well as being expensive. However, Betavolt states that it uses a different approach.
How Betavolt's radioactive battery works
To create the radioactive battery, Betavolt's scientist used nickel-63, which is a radiactive element, as the energy source and then diamond semiconductors as energy converters.
The team developed a single-crystal diamond semiconductor that is just 10 microns thick, and then placed a 2-micron-thick nickel-63 sheet between two diamond semiconductor converters.
The decay energy of the radioactive source is then converted into an electrical current.
Betavolt claims the advantages of its atomic energy batteries are their lightweight, feature a long service life, as well as feature high energy density, and can work normally under extreme temperatures from -60 to 120-degrees Celcius.
Due to the modular design multiple atomic batteries could be connected to provide a higher energy output that could power automotive technology, as well as AI systems just to name a few.
Toxic reputation
Understandably most people wouldn’t want to carry nuclear material in their pocket; particular not viewers of HBO's fantastic but chilling Chernobyl series. Many could be hesitant to adopt the widespread use of nuclear batteries due to the negative connotations of nuclear tragedies like the Chernobyl disaster in 1986 or the Fukushima nuclear accident in 2011.
However, the Betavolt also addressed the concerns about radiation, stating the battery is safe as it has no external radiation and is suitable for use in medical devices inside the human body like pacemakers and cochlea implants.
Betavolt says that after it has decayed the 63 nuclear isotopes become copper, which would be non-radioactive and not cause any environmental threat.
While it sounds like something from 1950s science fiction this technology could change the face of electronics by providing unwired, always-on devices that could be spell a new revolution in nuclear energy use.

(th)

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#1 2023-12-27 08:04:58

Nickel-63 to Copper-63 Nuclear Thermal Energy Supply

#2 2023-12-27 08:05:32

Re: Nickel-63 to Copper-63 Nuclear Thermal Energy Supply

#3 2023-12-27 09:54:23

Re: Nickel-63 to Copper-63 Nuclear Thermal Energy Supply

#4 2023-12-27 18:07:44

Re: Nickel-63 to Copper-63 Nuclear Thermal Energy Supply

#5 2023-12-27 19:42:24

Re: Nickel-63 to Copper-63 Nuclear Thermal Energy Supply

#6 2023-12-27 22:45:22

Re: Nickel-63 to Copper-63 Nuclear Thermal Energy Supply

#7 2023-12-28 09:56:18

Re: Nickel-63 to Copper-63 Nuclear Thermal Energy Supply

#8 2023-12-28 10:41:17

Re: Nickel-63 to Copper-63 Nuclear Thermal Energy Supply

#9 2023-12-28 11:11:15

Re: Nickel-63 to Copper-63 Nuclear Thermal Energy Supply

#10 2023-12-28 12:35:34

Re: Nickel-63 to Copper-63 Nuclear Thermal Energy Supply

#11 2023-12-28 14:58:57

Re: Nickel-63 to Copper-63 Nuclear Thermal Energy Supply

#12 2024-01-01 07:09:27

Re: Nickel-63 to Copper-63 Nuclear Thermal Energy Supply

#13 2024-01-01 07:39:02

Re: Nickel-63 to Copper-63 Nuclear Thermal Energy Supply

#14 2024-01-01 08:19:43

Re: Nickel-63 to Copper-63 Nuclear Thermal Energy Supply

#15 2024-01-13 19:37:31

Re: Nickel-63 to Copper-63 Nuclear Thermal Energy Supply

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