New Mars Forums

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,428

Re: Steam powered rovers

I got thinking about the co2 collection and here is what I was thinking.
A repost:
I got thinking about how to concentrate the intake of the co2 inlet for the compressor to be able to move it to a storage tank but under higher pressures. The through put was to be created on a circular track or road for a solar power rover to just drive at velocity with a funnel shaped opening to use as a ram intake to boost the incoming pressure to allow for a compressor to work more easily.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity_stack

Basically using a rocket engine nozzle in reverse to create a greater pressure via motion.
Storing on the vehicle to be released to a much larger tank when its its stopped.

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,428

Re: Steam powered rovers

Using mars against its self to make energy from the day time solar and night time cold would mean that we would use 2 systems to collect the energy and a 3rd to create energy for mans use with the other.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas_law
https://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/Numbe … nstant.htm

Lets make use of an evaporated tube for collecting the heat Which is dark or black in color, using an inlet control value to allow mars air to enter during the night and have it close at the dawn comes with. The exit valve that is set for the high of the days pressure to allow for a bank of these to make a heat engine.It would be possible to do a solar powered value for the injecting process.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/comp … d_605.html

Several of these could be mounted to a manifold to gang the pressure to push a rotary or piston style shaft generator system where by the vented gas from motion exits to a low pressure tank for the next days use.

https://www.catalinacylinders.com/faqs/ … cylinders/

The other night time collector which is an open shiny relective group of tubes to store cold co2 would cool the exit gas to make dry ice from it.
http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWE … irfrig.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compresse … gy_storage

Of course the shafts of opposing drives are 180 out so as to push pull the complete cycle of motion. This is simular to the locomotive steam engine in concept.

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,428

Re: Steam powered rovers

Another mixed topic of energy, co2 compression and movement by them...
https://www.humanpowerplant.be/2017/09/ … plant.html

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,428

Re: Steam powered rovers

Depending on the heat content and temperature the steam could be less than boiling.
https://cset.mnsu.edu/engagethermo/systems_stpp.html
steam turbine power plants generate approximately 90% of the electricity produced in the United States of course these are from mostly fossil fuels but for mars we could have nuclear, solar and other types of fuels to make heat from.

of course solar concentration is another method to product heat

but the amount of a mobile surface could be problematic though not impossible...as a bring and drop item to recharge at before heading home from any given site if its collapsible.

A key component of moxie is the scrol compressor for mars atmospher and its also one for creating ower as well.

Heat Engine Projects.
http://www.redrok.com/engine.htm

Mars_B4_Moon

Member

Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,776

Re: Steam powered rovers

Epic Land Rover with a steam engine laughs at petrol stations
https://uk.motor1.com/news/526834/steam … and-rover/
It does use quite a bit of coal, however.

Celsius and centigrade but what if they counted in 'milligrade' based on a division into 1000 degrees while centigrade is having 100 divisions between two fixed points or used another temperature scale?

I think an independent colony on Mars could develop its own scales for cold and warmth and 'steam'. How will Mars measure when liquids boil from the soil or when pipes freeze, the Boiling points, hot plus cold temperatures and how to use 'Steam' and heating in a space village when Oil and Gasoline are rare? At 10000 ft or 3048 mWater will boil at 193 ºF or 89.5 ºC. Mount Vinsonthe highest peak in Antarctica, at 4,892 metres (16,050 ft) north part of Vinson Massif's summit plateau in the south portion of the main ridge of the Sentinel Range

For example on Earth at standard 10 Degrees Celsius is 50.00 F 283.15 Kelvin 509.67 135.00 Delisle 3.30 Newton 8.00 Réaumur 12.75 Rømer and a measurement of 0 Fahrenheit is 255.37 Kevlin is -17.78 Celsius and 459.67 Rankine 176.67 Delisle -5.87  Newton -14.22      Reaumur  -1.83 Romer. normal human body temperature range is typically stated as 36.5–37.5 °C (97.7–99.5 °F) the Human body temperature varies. It depends on sex, age, time of day, exertion level.

I wonder if Mars people will develop their own ways to measure temperature, what do I mean by this. Celsius, Fahrenheit have been great to measure temperature for Western Civilization, in ancient times they explored the idea of the 'thermoscope' used in the ancient Greek Hellenic period, Celsius, Fahrenheit survived as measurements one named after the Swedish astronomer and Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit from the old Dutch Republic of United Netherlands with colonies in NYC. Celsius, Fahrenheit give good data that people can understand but currently there is a trend to move to 'Kelvin' within the science community. Zero Kelvin or Absolute zero is the zero point temperature at which particles have minimum kinetic energy and cannot get colder.
A Community on Earth in a sandy desert or near the top of the Himalayas range might have different attitudes to weather, on Mount Everest pure water boils at about 154 ° F or 68 ° C. Fahrenheit has changed because of the scale's redefinition that normal mean body temperature today is taken as 98.6 degrees, whereas it was 96 degrees on Fahrenheit's original scale,  the Fahrenheit scale was the primary temperature standard for climatic, industrial and medical purposes. The original Celsius unit was called centigrade, from the Latin centum, which means 100, and gradus, the Celsius scale has been based on 0 °C for the freezing point of water and 100 °C for the boiling point of water at 1 atm pressure on our Planet Earth, the measurement of Fahrenheit, is still used in the United States, some island territories, and Liberia.  10 Degrees Celsius is 50.00 F or 283.15 Kelvin.
Mars is relatively low compared to Earth, averaging about minus 80 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 60 degrees Celsius).

It is possible that over generations Mars could have modified people partially cyber machine man, Cybernetic Transhuman Cyborg mix of animal and human, what helps the Emperor Penguin survive, the tallest and heaviest of all living penguin species in Antarctica might also help part machine engineered people live offworld. The air of Mars and Landscape might be changed century after just as humans have put chemical pollution in rivers and seas and warmed the air with global warming gasses.

Mars could have a mix of ordinary human and an advanced machine person engineered for the elements offworld. The Cyborg man or woman might better survive on Mars, 'Cybernetic machine village and town of mechanical bio people and its Neo culture might have a different concept of coldness and hotness, regular humans might adapt a culture new to Mars, alien measurement and language when compared to the measurement and languages of Earth.

Most of the world outside the USA uses Celsius scale, China is now another nation part from the USA that has shown ability to land working Rovers and it can perhaps have satellites in orbit or robots on the ground that measure wind, pressure and other measurements.

Mars today has very Low air pressure even in the most favorable spots, where the pressure is higher than average, liquid water is restricted to the range 0 to +10 °C

+10 °C for example 'One Hundred' miligrades? human body temperature a little over 365 miligrades

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-05-25 06:41:54)

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,428

Re: Steam powered rovers

Much like temperature we have the same issues for other measurement types as well that have to many scales and identifiers for them. Its why we lost in conversion of units a mars lander year back.

You bring up an interesting point and that is optimizing what we build that works on earth for the mars difference in conditions that mars will present. Temperature shift for operation is as you mention 1 of them and pressures will be another along with gravity.

Mars_B4_Moon

Member

Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,776

Re: Steam powered rovers

User JoshNH4H discussed Venus

We had a full thread discussion of radical old concepts for Venus exploration and even colonization, Venusians living in skyship balloon structures amongst the clouds .

The idea of a Steampunk style Rover on the ground has been discussed on Venus before or hardy machine to work on Jupiter's Moon Io, or where high radiation makes use of traditional electronics difficult, something inside a hot tunnel or a powered old style mechanical computer, or a steampowered Rover clockwork machine working around or near or on lava flows they could also be used at Fukushima or Chernobyl or other highly radioactive areas on Earth.  NASA funded Innovative Advanced Concepts program with a phase-I and a phase-II study from 2017-2018.

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/automaton- … ments-aree

https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/space … ironments/

Steampunk Venus rover ideas win NASA contest to 'explore hell' with clockwork robots
https://www.space.com/steampunk-venus-r … a-jpl.html
A future Venus rover could be decked out with steampunk-esque rollers and fenders as it carefully explores a planet that is so hot that the environment has destroyed other spacecraft within mere minutes of landing.

A Clockwork Rover for Venus
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/a-cloc … -for-venus

'Beach Animals' were created by Theo Jansen as a fusion of art and engineering
https://twitter.com/thePiggsBoson/statu … 2834941958

A video to 'voice tube' was linked it transcribes audio to text
https://www.voicetube.com/videos/163634

Here is the original link NASA Engineers Want This Steampunk Rover to Uncover Venus’ Secrets
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAhVi7IkL08

Steampunk Rover to Uncover Venus’ Secrets

Mars_B4_Moon

Member

Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,776

Re: Steam powered rovers

Demos: 3E-10 Stirling Engines
https://www.physics.purdue.edu/demos/di … item=3E-10

Modified "Hot" Beta engine
https://www.stirlingengineforum.com/vie … php?t=5598

Stirling engines using working fluids with strong real gas effects
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 1110001390

Specific Output - Stirling Engines
https://www.beyonddiscovery.org/stirlin … utput.html
The size and weight of Stirling engines for a given power output is important in many applications, particularly in the automotive, locomotive, space, and under-watcr power fields. It is still important, bul rather less critical in the stationary generator, heal pump and total energy, and surface marine fields.

For the First Time Ever, China Tested a Stirling Engine in Space
https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/ … ter-china/
The converter could provide a viable source of energy for future space colonies.

Mars_B4_Moon

Member

Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,776

Re: Steam powered rovers

Astrobiological Breakthrough: Detecting Life in the Ice Grains of Outer Moons
https://scitechdaily.com/astrobiologica … ter-moons/

Titan Submarine: Exploring the Depths of Kraken
https://www.nasa.gov/general/titan-subm … of-kraken/

HISTORY OF THE GROWTH OF THE STEAM-ENGINE
https://web.archive.org/web/19970629015 … ston/1878/

Gas Turbines breaking the 60% efficiency barrier
https://web.archive.org/web/20160328161 … aking.html

Gas turbines were not always this efficient. The first simple cycle model, developed in 1939 had an 18% thermal efficiency. Its turbine inlet temperature was less than 540°C, with an exhaust temperature a little over 260°C. These days, we are talking about around 40% simple cycle efficiency, with turbine inlet temperatures of 1500°C and exhausts up to 630°C – and of course, on much larger machines.

Even as the Fusion Era Comes Into View—We’re Still in the Steam Age
https://singularityhub.com/2024/03/19/e … steam-age/

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2024-04-01 16:15:57)