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My name 'Mars_B4_Moon' tells you I am against this but...maybe the Moon has some use
I know a lot of people say its not a good idea to test a Mars colony on the Lunar Surface, test Mars on the Moon its a mission for Loony Lunatics! Many people have this criticism of using the Moon as a stepping stone myself included. Some critics are amateur scientists, some of the many critics are professionals working in the industry there have been critics including former NASA astronauts who support a Direct-to-Mars vision. As simulations go the Moon is a very very very time energy consuming costly expensive place to build a Mars Simulation. Maybe Musk could do it cheaper but it could be a 10 Billion to $80 Billion Dollar research station depending on how you do the "Creative accounting" math.
However if you can grow something, build a space village work a space farm on the difficult conditions of the Moon then maybe it should be far easier to do the same on Mars. There might be a way to have AI Robots dig and process chemicals and 3-D print structures, a link could be explored between the power and manufacturing needs and geology, minerals of these different worlds. We have discussions regularly updated on Robotics, AI and 3d printing and perhaps future Cars will be tested on the Moon or a designer of buildings in Antarctica or groups like 'Foster & Partners' will probably start printing some impressive structures using off world materials. Sending stuff from the Moon into Orbit might be an overall Analogue for a growing Solar system wide trade economy. Perhaps they will find a way to live healthy in Lower G 16% Gravity. Survive CMEs or cosmic radiation on another body with no magnetic field to protect you. I personally believe its a waste of energy and money and time to be training in lunar scenarios and expect a simulation for totally different conditions on Mars but SLS is here, the Lunar Surface is the agenda now and the Moon will provide some very useful knowledge.
Vision for Space Exploration as proposed by 43rd President Bush Jnr a way to give NASA a new goal and to regain public enthusiasm for space exploration by President George W. Bush.
The original vision was changed or modified by Barack Obama's space policy and once again given a new direction by Donald Trump's "National Space Strategy" space policy.
https://web.archive.org/web/20060702073 … tellation/
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Joe Biden has not made any big announcements like previous US Presidents, however in 2021, a Russian satellite Kosmos was destroyed by an ASAT missile test, causing a debris field that affected the International Space Station, the Joe Biden Kamala Harris Admin and their European allies are also busy responding politically to the invasion of Ukraine so they might have other priority than speeches about the Moon or Mars.
Trump created a 'Space Force' which the Biden Admin also support plus news items like this "Russian officer says developing new weapon for space defense" might be of more importance to the Biden Admin
https://web.archive.org/web/20100518190 … 29349.html
However the Mars Society had an FAQ on its website about testing Mars on the Moon
The Mars Society Frequently Asked Questions
https://web.archive.org/web/20080126202 … moon_first
It is useful to practice for Mars before we go, but this can be done in the Arctic at 1/1000th the cost of a Lunar training facility.
There is perhaps an unseen Political and Business side to the Lunar surface. Commercialization of the Moon is a contentious issue for national and international lunar regulation and laws such as the Moon treaty, Trump basically ignored the treaty and said it hampered progress. https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 … gal-issues Laying claim to the minerals and stones on Moon has been declared illegal through international space law and no state has made such claims https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-inter … overeignty A Lunar Base or moonbase would be a village or a facility on the surface of the Moon, enabling human activity on the Moon, it would be manned presence on the surface or inside Caves, a different journey and mission than an orbiter or from a lunar space station in orbit around the Moon. Space advocacy groups support or advocating for human exploration or robots exploring space, the search for alien life or for a commercial human use of outer space, like the planetary society, Canadian Space Society, SETI or the Royal Astronomical Society, the French International Space University, American Astronautical Society, British Interplanetary Society or now dead groups such as the California Space Authority ceased operations in 2011, examples of other such groups would be.
http://www.planetary.org/
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http://www.seti.org/
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http://www.bis-space.com/
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http://www.moonsociety.org/
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http://astronautical.org/
http://nasawatch.com/archives/2011/06/c … -spac.html
Within each advocacy group you will have people with different opinions. Moon Society is a space advocacy organization, founded in 2000, and dedicated to promoting large-scale human exploration, research, and settlement of the Moon.
I have a general feeling within the United States public mood there is a "been there, done that" in going back to put more Flags on the Moon. However the Moon will deliver some good science. Other nations for example the Chinese they will not truly have any open debate, they don't have space advocacy groups, because whatever the government of China chooses Moon or Mars or even somewhere as far away as Neptune the public is generally expected to go along with the wishes of its government which supposedly 'knows best'. There are lesson to learn from the Moon and setting up structures on a natural body like the Moon and Mars would provide ample sources of material for their construction, particularly for purposes such as shielding Lunar or Mars citizens from cosmic radiation, observatory facilities on the Moon or orbiting the Moon might also be done on Mars.
My opinion still has not changed and I agree with the Mars society article that says you can test Mars in the Arctic at 1/1000th the price of testing Mars colonies on the Moon.
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-12-24 20:14:20)
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Peter Kokh
https://www.thespaceshow.com/guest/peter-kokh
Mare Cognitum Virtual Chapter - July 2021 meeting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po_1mMhFzx4
Interview* with Peter Kokh
https://archive.ph/1XCc
Editor of the Moon Miners' Manifesto
Peter Kokh has been involved in space advocacy since the early 1970s when he became one of the first members of von Braun's National Space Institute, the forerunner of today's National Space Society (NSS). He has remained very active till the present day and is involved with the NSS, the Mars Society, and the Moon Society, both at the local and national levels.
Since 1986 Peter has published the Moon Miners' Manifesto for which he is the editor and primary contributor. The monthly issues of the Manifesto "contain speculative articles that deal with the opening of the Lunar frontier, suggesting how pioneers can make best use of local resources." Most of the material deals directly with pioneer life on the Moon but much of it is also relevant to living on Mars.
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NASA Releases Revised Version of Its Moon to Mars Objectives
https://scitechdaily.com/nasa-releases- … bjectives/
“We need a roadmap with staying power, and through a collaborative process, we’ve identified a core set of defined objectives to achieve our exploration goals with our partners,” said NASA Deputy Administrator Pam Melroy. “These objectives are both practical and aspirational, and we were gratified by the thoughtful contributions of our workforce, industry, and international partners who will join us in shaping our future together.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtJTRtpf2lQ
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Will Artemis 2 launch to the moon in 2024? NASA has a lot of work ahead
EDIT trouble posting article
The ISS costs about $3 billion a year, you might argue it could have shown multiple goals over its years a symbol of global collaboration and human ability and may inspire future applications. It was a political station of peace after the fall of the USSR, it could inspire a cloud city on Venus or some other research, it is an advanced microgravity laboratory, a hotel for space tourists, a site and a port for commercial space flight .
The Moonbase the political climate is different, yes there are international players but will be the most expensive analogue ever created by mankind. Space-X Musk hopes to get to Mars but the relationship with the Joe Biden Kamala Harris Admin is bad, political back and forth more obstacles, time has been lost.
The Moon vs Mars and Manned vs un-manned, Mars has potential which the Moon simply does not have, Mars has air, a lot more water than on the Moon, the possibility of life with Methane signals, presence of hydrocarbons, Ore resources which the Moon does not have, protection from micrometeorites and Moxie is working on Mars there would possibly be farms set up on Mars with AI robots preparing a colony before the arrival of humans.
if a Moon base is made to compare to a possible future Mars base it will be an expensive analogue, maybe 80 Billion maybe as high as $120 Billion and SLS costing $4.1 billion per launch
The development cost of having colonies on the Lunar surface or villages the Moon with a research Moonbase, will probably send costs out of control and we are back in the JFK Nixon era with people ready to break up NASA because of costs.
What kind of issues and maintenance will pop up to keep humans alive and what is the life expectancy of manned Lunar villages or a the life expectancy of bases on the Moon?
a topic from RobertDyck in 2012, a very active remember of this forum a Computer Software scientists who made many great astronomy and physics presentations over the years
He also talks about Dr. Robert Zubrin
Back in 1989, then president George Bush Sr. stood on the steps of the Air and Space Museum and proclaimed "We will go to Mars!" NASA trundled off and 90 days later came back with a report called the "90 Day Report". It called for a space station, Moon base, fuel depot in Earth orbit, a second space station to check out the Mars spacecraft, and a giant space craft for Mars with onboard greenhouse and nuclear engines. Well, I like nuclear engines, but this craft was WAY too big, it looked like something from Hollywood. It would take 26 months round trip (dictated by planetary orbits) but they would only land half the crew on Mars, and they would only spend 2 weeks on Mars before heading home. The price for all this was $450 Billion! Congress took one look at the price tag and immediately killed it.
'Control cost or go home'
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6151
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-12-26 09:48:02)
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