Is this alive? - Poll on picture on Mars-Mania website

keithphi · 2003-10-08 15:42:40

I have conducted a national poll in America in early October on the question of whether an image shown (MOC) was of a living creature or not. The answer was 40% yes, 60% no. If you can visit the USA national polls, please add your vote. If not, GOTO: Mars-Mania and look at the picture displayed on the Guestbook. Then complete this new poll on the Mars Society Website. Thankyou very much. keithphi@ev1.net

Shaun Barrett · 2003-10-08 19:18:27

Sorry, Keithphi, but I can't find the site and the picture!

keithphi · 2003-10-09 12:03:56

I have a whole section dedicated to my findings of 'Life on Mars'.

> You can begin by going to :

http://www.mars-mania.com/lifelinks.html

There are six species and 10 photos. Three of the species there are two different creatures that were caught by the MOC of msss.com.

Visited by moderator 2022/02/06

Shaun Barrett · 2003-10-10 19:48:31

Unfortunately, I think the answer to your question: "Is this alive?" has to be that there's no compelling reason to say yes.
I've looked at all the pictures and alternative, simpler, and more mundane geological explanations are more likely.

Section XVI was the one that lent itself most effectively to the notion that we're looking at herds of enormous animals, disporting themselves in the sand. But, again, there's really nothing to suggest the purported 'beasties' are not simply eroded craters full of sand dunes.

I truly hate to rain on other people's parades but we have to apply strict standards of evidence to this sort of thing, and your pictures simply don't pass the test. In fact, it would take enormously detailed orbital images showing completely enequivocal evidence before people would change their minds about Mars.
So far, I've seen nothing which constitutes incontrovertible proof of macroscopic Martian life-forms.
Sorry!

Free Spirit · 2003-10-10 23:37:10

That second picture is a giant trilobyte that adapted to Mars' evaporating oceans by growing so huge its body would have enough surface area to soak up moisture. We have to be careful to avoid sending people to these areas of Mars to prevent them from becoming snacks for these beasts. So Mr. Barrett, as you can see, that picture on the bottom is clearly not a crater or sand dune as you mistakenly assert.

keithphi · 2003-10-11 10:38:45

Thank you free spirit. What our skeptical friends don't know is
what goes on behind the curtains at OZ. You see, I presented a
paper on my findings to NASA/AMES near the end of August. It
has only been 5 weeks and they just launched a project for students
to try to determine what kind of creatures could be alive on Mars.
So, while we could argue about photos and pixels NASA/AMES is
attacking the problem the logical way. As I pointed out in my
paper we need to verify what we think we know about the conditions
on Mars. THe UV radiation levels, the atmosmpheric pressure, the temperatures,
and the composition of the atmosphere. Then, ask what biological
configuration could cope? Because it appears that nature is prevalent
and bound and determined to survive any environment that is around it.

Palomar · 2003-10-11 11:22:02

Thank you free spirit. What our skeptical friends don't know is
what goes on behind the curtains at OZ.

*Far be it from me to think I can read Free Spirit's mind, but I'm under the impression that s/he might have been facetious in the post addressing Shaun (and ultimately agreeing with him). That's just my impression.

Sorry, Keith; I remain skeptical. The first photo could be anything...the second photo reminds me of other photos which scientists say are dethawing sand dunes.

It all boils down to you can't prove there is currently life on Mars and I cannot prove there isn't. Hopefully there is, though; that'd be great. But I haven't yet seen data, photos, etc., which sway me toward being convinced life has been found there...yet.

And sorry, I don't buy the "you're being hoodwinked if you don't believe" routine. There is skepticism and then there is narrow-mindedness; the two are often confused in usage and are -not- always synonymous.

--Cindy

keithphi · 2003-10-11 14:08:06

You have not reviewed all the material on my site so it is understandable
that your response would be that.

You see a couple of photos
and that is the end of the argument.

So, here is one more for
you to ponder. This one has both eyes clearly visible and is under
attack. It is leaving a trail of blood and its predator is riding on
its back.

George H · 2003-10-11 14:51:15

Some imagination you got there Keith. I think you just see what you WANT to see, & end of argument. Why ask us? You got your mind made up.

keithphi · 2003-10-11 17:21:50

Imagination? The human race suffers many afflictions. That is not
one of them. Ignorance is the number one affliction. I, we, all
of us suffer from this. It can be attributed directly to the
control of the populace through the mass media and those in power.
Tere are too many examples to list here that you and others probably
think the same of as my evidence. You are right, though. My mind is
made up. It took me a while though to make up my mind. You have
not had time to digest the information or even contemplate as
long as I have already. But, you also seem to indicate that you have no
inclination to even do so. I have already predicted in my study (if
you read any of it) that you are among the 1 in 4 that will never be
convinced about anything you have not already made your mind up on.The
reason I bring it to this forum is simple. I want to find some
intelligent feedback about what could exist on Mars. We have certain
information about the environment and people who know biology. I
am here to find some intelligent feedback. That is all. End of story.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-10-12 01:55:23

Hi again Keith!
That last photo is certainly very interesting. It's not immediately obvious to me what that dark linear streak might be, though some kind of windblown material springs to mind.
It never would have occurred to me to think I was looking at large living creatures, one having attacked and wounded the other. Even armed with this as a potential hypothesis, I still can't see any evidence to persuade me I'm not looking at craters. The fact that there are other structures in the picture which are very plainly craters of various sizes, makes it all the more plausible that the largest structure is also a crater, notwithstanding the fact that it has dark material associated with it.
I certainly think it would be interesting to investigate further and find out exactly what the dark material is and why a streak of it extends off in a straight line like that, in only one direction, when the wind must surely change with the daily fluctuation in temperature or with the seasons. (Actually, I think I can see a feint streak emanating in the same direction from the smaller of the two craters with dark material, too.) But, until we use spectrometers to analyse it or, better yet, get down there on the surface in space suits and take samples, the best we can do is speculate.
I don't mind being called someone's 'skeptical friend'; 'friend' is a nice thing to be called ... I've been called worse! And I think I'd rather be called skeptical than gullible.

I still think, by the way, that the Cydonia Face looks suspicious and for that, I suppose, there'll be people here who have already labelled me gullible anyway!
But I'm not that thin-skinned and I don't really care that much what people think of my level of credulity. I just call the shots as I see 'em, with as much objectivity as I can muster, and I rule out nothing that I perceive to have some legitimate substance to it.
Without wishing to sound dismissive or insulting, Keith, your pictures simply don't convince me.

sethmckiness · 2003-10-12 03:41:39

Well.. I will not discount that life could exist on Mars, I do not find anything living about pictures of craters. Give me some good Hi-res shots.. let's say 1/8 inch resolution... of something you think is a species that was one plentiful on Earth and measured on average an inch to two inches long. BTW.. They existed in environments that were completely different then Mars. If we are going to find life on Mars, I would Wager it would be a few inches below ground or in the Caps. Most likely it will be microbial.

dicktice · 2003-10-12 09:01:11

Keith: Craters appear as humps, humps appear as craters in such pictures of the Martian, as well as Lunar, terrain, depending upon the direction of viewing and illumination. All of the features in your picture look suspiciously "humpy" to me, which would seem to be improbable. Hope I'm wrong. The mere fact of your arguments being made, says a great deal about the astounding progress in resolving the features of Mars in the few years since that first Mariner flyby!

keithphi · 2003-10-12 10:29:55

Well, I want to thank all of you for courtesy and honest opinions.

At least we stayed on the topic and didn't tear down the messenger.

You have a very good BBS. I hope it maintains such quality of
content and purpose. I could leave you all with some stunning
'objects' amidst the craters. These unfortunately were low
resolution shots. The starship is 8 miles long.

Mad Grad Student · 2003-11-09 17:38:50

Hey Percival Lowell, er, keithphi! I'm sorry, but the only way that I can see intellegant design to what you show is by using extreme imagination, and as we all know, while imagination is good for inventing it can get in the way when trying to find "life" on Mars.

If you want to see if they actually are living things, wait about a week and see if they formations have moved. Also, if there really were 200-ft-long trilobites on Mars, wouldn't MGS have seen them by now? The first one is just some sand dunes or something, and the second one is some kind of joke, right? 8-mile long starship!? ???

jadeheart · 2003-11-10 19:47:44

how about those 'banyan trees' arthur clarke keeps spouting off about? (couldn't put the image in here, but here's the link):

http://www.space.com/php....Clarke.

pretty curious, huh? down in the southern part of the planet. i'm thinking this must be some kind of geological phenomenon, but clarke is convinced it's some kind of vegetative life. the smallest of these would be like 3,000 feet across if i remember correctly.

atitarev · 2003-11-10 22:15:50

Hey, KeithPhi, thanks for your posts. We need more enthusiasts like you. Although, I am not convinced we found life on Mars yet but with people like, I'm sure we will.

Palomar · 2003-11-11 10:02:52

how about those 'banyan trees' arthur clarke keeps spouting off about? (couldn't put the image in here, but here's the link):

http://www.space.com/php....Clarke.
pretty curious, huh? down in the southern part of the planet. i'm thinking this must be some kind of geological phenomenon, but clarke is convinced it's some kind of vegetative life. the smallest of these would be like 3,000 feet across if i remember correctly.

*Clarke's "banyan trees" came up in a different thread a few months ago, which I'm currently unable to relocate.

It does look like trees, doesn't it? Just like the blackish patches on thawing sand dunes look like mesquite bushes dotting along the banks of Elephant Butte Lake here in NM.

Well...I haven't been to Mars, so I can't prove there aren't trees (of whatever species) there...nor brush. jadeheart, this is the first time I've seen a photo of Clarke's theoretical trees.

What I'm wondering (again, as in the previously-mentioned thread) is how could trees live in what seems to be an otherwise ecological (as far as flora go, not to mention fauna) vacuum? We see (so far) no grasses, flowering plants, etc. Just these "trees." Out there, seemingly alone amidst the reddish-brown soil of Mars. And, of course, it's rather cold on Mars any time of the year, especially the further away from the equator (in either direction) you go. Plants don't thrive well in such cold (understatement); and then plants a few thousand feet across??

I wish I could locate that other thread, because I recall Shaun Barrett had some very interesting input there. I'll try to find that thread again.

--Cindy

"Of course, I could be wrong." -- A favorite friend's saying.

::EDIT:: The previously posted material about "banyan trees on Mars" was in the Acheron Labs section, a thread entitled "New research paper says, Mars life unlikely"

jadeheart · 2003-11-11 13:35:47

doh! i just now stumbled onto the clarke discussion in "research paper says..." i shoulda familiarized myself more with what's here before making that post.

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#1 2003-10-08 15:42:40

Re: Is this alive? - Poll on picture on Mars-Mania website

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Re: Is this alive? - Poll on picture on Mars-Mania website

#3 2003-10-09 12:03:56

Re: Is this alive? - Poll on picture on Mars-Mania website

#4 2003-10-10 19:48:31

Re: Is this alive? - Poll on picture on Mars-Mania website

#5 2003-10-10 23:37:10

Re: Is this alive? - Poll on picture on Mars-Mania website

#6 2003-10-11 10:38:45

Re: Is this alive? - Poll on picture on Mars-Mania website

#7 2003-10-11 11:22:02

Re: Is this alive? - Poll on picture on Mars-Mania website

#8 2003-10-11 14:08:06

Re: Is this alive? - Poll on picture on Mars-Mania website

#9 2003-10-11 14:51:15

Re: Is this alive? - Poll on picture on Mars-Mania website

#10 2003-10-11 17:21:50

Re: Is this alive? - Poll on picture on Mars-Mania website

#11 2003-10-12 01:55:23

Re: Is this alive? - Poll on picture on Mars-Mania website

#12 2003-10-12 03:41:39

Re: Is this alive? - Poll on picture on Mars-Mania website

#13 2003-10-12 09:01:11

Re: Is this alive? - Poll on picture on Mars-Mania website

#14 2003-10-12 10:29:55

Re: Is this alive? - Poll on picture on Mars-Mania website

#15 2003-11-09 17:38:50

Re: Is this alive? - Poll on picture on Mars-Mania website

#16 2003-11-10 19:47:44

Re: Is this alive? - Poll on picture on Mars-Mania website

#17 2003-11-10 22:15:50

Re: Is this alive? - Poll on picture on Mars-Mania website

#18 2003-11-11 10:02:52

Re: Is this alive? - Poll on picture on Mars-Mania website

#19 2003-11-11 13:35:47

Re: Is this alive? - Poll on picture on Mars-Mania website

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