Radioactive Oceans, source of Organics and Oxygen?

Void · 2023-11-30 08:46:45

Another topic the moderators are welcome to kill in the crib if they want to.

It has been on my mind that a biosphere supported by radioactive decay might produce organics and free Oxygen.

Life might be the reason. If radioactive decay splits H20 in the sediments, then life consuming H20 and CO2, will liberate Oxygen in order to incorporate Carbon and Hydrogen into their body tissues.

My thinking is that this could be done on Mars, artificially and may exist in some of the oceans under ice that occur naturally in our solar system.

Here is a bit of support: https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2021/07 … 20microbes.
Quote:

Radiolytic H2: Powering Subsurface Biospheres
by Paul Gilster | Jul 2, 2021 | Astrobiology and SETI | 62 comments
Although we’ve been focusing lately on photosynthesis, radiolysis — the dissociation of molecules by ionizing radiation — can produce food and energy for life below the surface and in deep oceans. Our interest in surface conditions thus needs to be complemented by the investigation of what may lie within, as Alex Tolley explains in today’s essay. Indeed, biospheres in a planet’s crust could withstand even the destruction of all surface life. The possible range of microorganisms well beyond the conventional habitable zone defined by liquid water is wide, and while detecting it will be challenging, we may be able to investigate the possibilities in our own system with landers, looking to a day when interstellar probes are possible to explore exoplanet interiors.

Quote:

However, later experiments with oceanic sediments showed that radiolysis production of H2 was catalyzed by the minerals increasing production of H2 many fold. In the sediments on the ocean floor it was found that radiolysis was the main source of H2 as an energy source for microbes.

So, if a nuclear industry on Mars maybe some type of farming with the creation and enhancement of such a "Biosphere".

I am not sure that the outputs would be suitable for direct human consumption but it may provide fuels and Oxygen for some type of machine processes.

Mars would be much easier to do this on than Earth as it has a thick permafrost layer, which may be icy very deep many places, especially at higher latitudes. This would perhaps allow the waters of a pond/lake/sea to remain in isolation for very long periods, while the contents of the pond might be somewhat toxic.

I think it could be likely that the sediments in a lake would already have the natural radiolysis, but perhaps some more radioactive materials of some kind could be tolerated. I don't know if you could put Tritium into it to have it decay into Helium 3 or not and if that would be useful or tolerable.

Helion intends to make its own Helium 3 by using Deuterium with Tritium produced as a byproduct. So those reactors would be Neutronic, but their other reactors would be Aneutronic, by using Deuterium and Helium 3.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helion_Energy

Done.

This may be of some interest as well: https://phys.org/news/2023-02-radioacti … rnova.html

FEBRUARY 20, 2023
Editors' notes
Radioactive isotopes reach Earth by surfing supernova blast waves, scientists discover
by University of Hertfordshire

So, these isotopes would eventually sink into the Earth's interior with plate tectonics. Perhaps not so on Mars, it may be more in the surface materials. And that could be a good thing if you want to set up a biosphere.

Such a system might produce biogases which could be released to atmosphere to serve as greenhouse gasses.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-30 09:10:12)

Calliban · 2023-11-30 09:49:10

Mars lacks tectonics. The only thing that exposes deep crustal rocks is meteorite impacts, which are rare. Large parts of the surface are permafrost, which will be relatively impermeable to gases. Radioloysis of ice and water will generate gases which will tend to become trapped within the grain boundaries of rocks and fissures. These will continue to build until they find either a leak path, or pressure build up leads to catastrophic failure of the overburden. In places where the H2 migrates into ice layers, it will form clathrates. Oxygen, which is a larger and heavier molecule, will have a much smaller diffusion coefficient through rock grains. It will remain trapped in the grain boundaries close to where it is made.

Mars may have large reservoirs of trapped H2 and O2 beneath its surface. These could one day be economically important for life support, power production and chemical industry. We may find economically important quantities of Argon-40, which is a dexay product of pottasium-40.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-11-30 09:51:39)

Void · 2023-11-30 10:39:42

It will be good if it is that way Calliban.

Eris is now said to be squishy: https://phys.org/news/2023-11-dwarf-pla … shier.html
Quote:

NOVEMBER 30, 2023
Editors' notes
Dwarf planet Eris is 'squishier' than expected
by Erin Malsbury, University of California - Santa Cruz

So, if radioactive materials are surfing to our planets from star explosions, then this world may be moving the materials down to its core surface.

Dwarf Planet Oceans/seas: https://www.newscientist.com/article/23 … uid-water/ Quote:

Space
Eris and Makemake might be hiding unexpected oceans of liquid water
Dwarf planets aren’t expected to carry liquid water, but hints of surprising geological activity spotted with JWST indicate that some of them might have buried oceans
By Leah Crane
21 September 2023

So, how about dwarf rogue planets?

Mars may be a good starter house, but I think that if fusion becomes practical, humans may want to specialize in Dwarf Planets and Dwarf Rogue Planets.

I am guessing that there could be a lot of them.

If they have subducting ice shells they may convey radioactive materials from exploding stars into the bottoms of oceans that may exist.

So, they may have a more or less continuous replenishment of a source of heat and also radiolysis.

Possibly life.

If life found then that has to be discussed as what to do.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-30 10:49:49)

Void · 2023-11-30 19:04:04

It is beginning to look like to me that each Dwarf Planet will be different some more or less suitable to needs/desires.

But even in our solar system there may be many of them.

Rogue Dwarf Planets. Have we considered the chance that one might hit a planet in our solar system? Probably over long stretches of time that could be possible. That could be a portion of the answer to the Fermi Paradox, I feel, that and the observation that there are very few solar systems which might have a planet like Earth in them.

So, maybe we should become multiplanetary. Those who don't want to don't get a say. As they don't want to, they can mind their own business. If they say, "We have too many things to fix here" it tells me that they are authoritarian "Royals", left or right, and only want to feed on the real humans. They are subhuman by their intentions. They don't have to be subhuman, but the choose to be.

So, I am going to be very interested in the Dwarfs.

Space Elevators and other "Clark Teck" might work well with them.

How many Dwarf Planets may there be?

https://www.turito.com/blog/physics/dwarf-planets
Quote:

The number of dwarf planets in the Solar System is unknown1. The International Astronomical Union officially recognizes five dwarf planets: Pluto, Ceres, Eris, Makemake, and Haumea234. Some sources also include 2015 RR245 as a sixth dwarf planet5. Estimates have run as high as 200 in the Kuiper belt and over 10,000 in the region beyond1, but some factors may reduce the numbers

So, let's say there might be 5000 Dwarf Planets, and let's say that only 1 out of 10 is worth the work to inhabit/utilize. Then that would be 500 worlds.

And then there may be Rogue Dwarf Planets.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-30 19:09:35)

Calliban · 2023-12-01 01:43:41

We have discussed before methods of aquaforming icy bodies like this. All such ambitions come down to having a sufficient energy source. Fissionable materials appear to be too diffuse to be useful in these objects. The sun is so distant it is really just another star amongst the multitude. The only other energy source we know of is fusion.

Icy bodies 100km in diameter would appear to be roughly minimal size for aquaforming. How many objects are there 100km and larger?

We humans are creatures of the land. We could build floating habitats under the ice or free space habitats around the body. I am put in mind of the episode 'Swarm' from the Netflix series 'Love, Death and Robots'.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-12-01 01:47:03)

Void · 2023-12-01 07:17:37

Your observations seem sensible to me, there should be many more of the smaller ones, and many of those may not be as differentiated so may have easier access to a variety of materials.

The idea of the human race gradually crawling to other star systems from object to object has been around for a long time as an alternative to the "Interstellar Starship" notion. It of course wants a good energy source which for now seems like it would need to be some kind of fusion.

If humans adapt to settle on Dwarf Worlds and Sub-Dwarf Worlds, then it might shed a different light on our neighbor Proxima Centauri

https://www.universetoday.com/137783/pr … r%20system.

It may turn out to be a good thing if planets 'b' and 'd' have little or no atmospheres, presuming that there are icy dwarf objects around such a star.

Quote:

Another important question has been whether or not Proxima Centauri could have any more objects orbiting it. According to a recent study by an international team of astronomers, Proxima Centauri is also home to a belt of cold dust and debris that is similar to the Main Asteroid Belt and Kuiper Belt in our Solar System. The existence of this dusty belt could indicate the presence of more planets in this star system.

What I might be strongly interested in would be an object that was just close enough to that star that a Nitrogen dominated atmosphere would be inflated. I think titan gets about 1.5 times the sunlight of Earth, but might keep an inflated atmosphere with less. Pluto even can inflate an atmosphere, but tends to lose it though.

A world somewhere between the gravity of Earth and Mars, with a magnetic field that much of a distance from the star might host a Nitrogen atmosphere, I think. And I don't believe that we have much hope at this time of detecting something that size and that far away from its star. But such might be useful to humans with Fusion power. And there could be a lot of them around the galaxy.

If Proxima had such a planet then the inner planets 'b' and 'd' could be mined for materials, and of course the other materials desired would be at that "Cold Terrestrial". (It would not necessarily be like a terrestrial, but have some similarity to Titan, I suppose.

Some versions of such worlds would have such an atmosphere and also an ice covered ocean powered by radioactive decay, I am guessing.

Others might be more like a Terrestrial with some projections of rock showing up from volcanos jutting above ice.

In a case like that then volcanic ash layers on top of the ice in some cases.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-01 07:41:36)

Void · 2023-12-01 22:00:51

Calliban Said: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 58#p216658
Quote:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,006
Email
We have discussed before methods of aquaforming icy bodies like this. All such ambitions come down to having a sufficient energy source. Fissionable materials appear to be too diffuse to be useful in these objects. The sun is so distant it is really just another star amongst the multitude. The only other energy source we know of is fusion.
Icy bodies 100km in diameter would appear to be roughly minimal size for aquaforming. How many objects are there 100km and larger?
We humans are creatures of the land. We could build floating habitats under the ice or free space habitats around the body. I am put in mind of the episode 'Swarm' from the Netflix series 'Love, Death and Robots'.
Last edited by Calliban (Today 02:47:03)
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

If I could borrow from Issac Arthur, the "Laser Highway", and incorporate it.to this.

Here is a video, it would be a hope, but it does need proving over time: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
Quote:

Interstellar Highways
YouTube
Isaac Arthur
448.5K views
Feb 23, 2017

So, then a modification of that may fit in, a much more humble system.

A 100 km diameter or larger object if surrounded by a shell of large size could then associate the aquaformed object with a very large target for lasers.

Similarly, I have already elsewhere mentioned a modification(s) of an Orion Starship for use in the proposed system.

In the case of an icy world with a large amount of ice, I am now thinking of a torus of buckets. Each bucket creating centrifugal pressurization. Very large but also able to accommodate spin habitats with air in them.

So, perhaps a collection of those tools might allow some rather interesting spread of the human race into the various objects.

But I am tired the idea is not fully formed, so I want to rest on it. Comments are welcome.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-01 22:46:46)

Void · 2023-12-02 09:00:42

My last post is rather ambiguous, I admit.

Calliban having help better define "Aqua Forming", that is an interesting option: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 58#p216658

Some larger Dwarf Planets may still have ice covered oceans. Smaller ones may have frozen solid by now, it is not known.

Different histories for these objects then likely make them all be somewhat unique, but maybe similar to some extent. That is unknown. So, what to do with each one of them if anything, is not yet well discovered.

Things that may be like some of these objects could be some icy asteroids/Dwarf Planets such as Ceres, the moons Triton, Phobe, and the Dwarf Worlds Pluto/Charon.

The number of ices in these objects are of interest. Obviously, these may contain fusion fuels and propellants.

But the ices may be an overburden that gets in the way of access to the heavier materials. Not always though, if the objects are not completely differentiated.

For molecules of Oxygen, Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, it might be possible to assemble them into woody products or plastics, as structural materials.

Dealing with the icy overburdens could be assisted by lasers from more sunward locations and for water ice at least, centrifugal Lakes/Seas may be useful to create a parking place for the ices, and to make a target object for the lasers to send energy to.

To imagine a centrifugal Lake/Sea, imagine a car tire partly filled with water and spun.

You could also imagine two buckets attached by a rope, filled with water and spinning in microgravity. This is a bit like a baton synthetic gravity machine, similar to concepts from Dr. Johnson or from Vast Space.

Now turn that into a ring of buckets on a hub and you have a torus of buckets, or cells.

I kind of like this as you could perhaps manufacture a really big structure like that, a singular multi-world structure. Larger objects would be easier for the lasers to efficiently deliver power to, particularly if these are not changing speeds much. Their locations in time should be rather predictable.

When possible, it could be good to have worlds with actual pictures so we can imagine what could be done with them.

I wish we had pictures of Eris, but we don't it is currently though that it is rockier than Pluto, and may have an ice shell. That ice shell might have a liquid sea.

Pluto/Charon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluto
Very icy, it may be hard to get rocky materials local, but they might be delivered as solar sail materials. Ia might be possible to inflate a cold atmosphere with laser energy and fusion energy. I don't know if a magnetic field could help Pluto retain that atmosphere, but maybe. Charon being of so many ices and a lower gravity might be possible to make into multiple seas, either Aqua formed with their own gravity or Centrifugal Lakes/Seas. Charon might allow a sort of Orion Drive power plant where you could just set off bombs and use the waste heat.

Triton: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triton_(moon)
May have some similarities to Pluto, but may be about to provide power with tethers that pull power from it's orbit withing the magnetic field of Neptune? Rocky materials may be hard to come by. I think it may not be possible to hold a cold atmosphere to it but I don't know.

Phobe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_(moon)
It is thought that it might be a captured Centaur. I might hope that it is 50/50 icy/rocky, but I don't know. It may be very valuable if rocky materials are accessible at the surface along with ices.
Quote:

It is estimated that Phoebe is about 50% rock, as opposed to the 35% or so that typifies Saturn's inner moons. For these reasons, scientists are coming to think that Phoebe is in fact a captured centaur, one of a number of icy planetoids from the Kuiper belt that orbit the Sun between Jupiter and Neptune.[26][27] Phoebe is the first such object to be imaged as anything other than a dot.
Despite its small size, Phoebe is thought to have been a spherical body early in its history, with a differentiated interior, before solidifying and being battered into its current, slightly non-equilibrium shape.[28]

I think that it is not out of the question to consider solar energy for the Saturn system, with very large mirrors orbiting Saturn. And of course, then if you had laser power also fusion power method, all the better. Saturn also has many other moons that would have some nature which would allow similar treatments.

Exceptional asteroids/dwarfs/Ceres: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids
Image Quote:

Some of these are thought to be icy, and rocky, and likely to have formed in the more outer solar system and have be displaced to the asteroid belt over time.

Putting some of the water of them into centrifugal Lakes/Seas, may not be a bad idea as it allows the greater interception of sunlight. Mirrors/Lasers/Fusion and also Fission may be useful.

In post #1: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 24#p216624
Radiolysis in a sea bed is discussed.

I can wonder if we can use planetary magnetic fields and fusion that is Neutronic to transmute substances into radioactive materials that could drive such processes in centrifugal Lakes/Seas.

It is hard to say of organic materials resulting from life living off of that will be useful. I also feel that there could be some free Oxygen produced by this process, but I am not sure. I am guessing that some radioactive substances may provide a toxicity greater than others. Maybe some could be useful. Radioactive farming

Nurturing these processes, may allow the human race to eventually develop the tools to live on the objects mentioned, and even to perhaps spread into rogue worlds of various types, and so become interstellar in nature.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-02 09:55:04)

Void · 2023-12-02 10:19:43

Continuing with the last post: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbTRl6ZNXpM
Quote:

What Would A Future Human Colony On Titan Be Like?
Insane Curiosity
415K subscribers
Subscribe

Most of the energy for Titan are interesting, and I am comfortable with.

Hydrogen + Acetylene to make power? Very interesting.

Just as seems true for Mars/Phobos/Deimos, it seem like they imagine humans be "Land-Lubbers.".

For a world like Titan where you have a thick atmosphere and low gravity why in the world would you restrict yourself to the surface of Titan?

We should really be thinking about settling the Saturn System with Titan as a piece of that.

It would take some very large thin mirrors but this could be done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRT0GGTWYnM Quote:

Interstellar - Cooper Station Scene 1080p HD
Jay M
27.6K subscribers

3.9M views 8 years ag

Hollywood did not try to emasculate Cooper too much in this scene, but they did make a small effort towards it. A bit of humility can be good, but not much more than enough thanks.

Orbital solar power stations could beam power to Titan. It may be that eventually the smog of Titan would be harvested at such a rate that the skies might be somewhat clear. That is if there is no life on the surface of Titan.

Phobe may supply more rocky materials as it may be possible to dig all their way into it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_(moon)
Quote:

Phoebe is roughly spherical and has a diameter of 213±1.4 km[4] (132 mi), approximately one-sixteenth that of the Moon. It is Saturn's ninth-largest moon, but it might be the eighth-most massive. Hyperion, another one of Saturn's moons, has a larger radius, but is less massive than Phoebe. Phoebe rotates every nine hours and 16 minutes, and completes a full orbit around Saturn in about 18 months. Its surface temperature is on average 75 K (−198.2 °C).

Quote:

It is estimated that Phoebe is about 50% rock, as opposed to the 35% or so that typifies Saturn's inner moons. For these reasons, scientists are coming to think that Phoebe is in fact a captured centaur, one of a number of icy planetoids from the Kuiper belt that orbit the Sun between Jupiter and Neptune.[26][27] Phoebe is the first such object to be imaged as anything other than a dot.

Rocky materials from Phobe may supply Titan and also build orbital stations both aquatic and Nitrogen filled.

I have it in my mind to find ways to transmute materials into isotopes that might support a simulation of ocean sediment radiolysis. I wonder if we could make this feed Mushrooms. I wonder if Mushrooms could be engineered to make something like wood.

I have my eyes on the radiation belts of planets, Mercury, Earth, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune. They may all have very dangerous radiation belts and I wonder if we could harness transmutation successfully to provide some material goods.

Done

So, actually, if you could get to it the Saturn System looks like the place to be.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-02 10:45:12)

Void · 2023-12-02 20:38:38

So, could certain soils without organics but with a type of radioactivity support mycelium and mushrooms? If you added CO2 and H20 and a tolerable amount of radiation might this work a bit like sediments in the ocean?

Done

Calliban · 2023-12-03 07:49:06

What the radiation is actually doing is breaking chemical bonds, giving rise to reactive chemical species that micro organisms can then metabolise. But it is a relatively inefficient way of converting energy into biomass. It may be active on Mars. Radiolysis of water produces H2 and O2. Hot water coming into contact with igneous rock can also release chemical energy through serpentinisation. The rate of energy release from all of these processes is low. So this isn't a process that would support an ecosystem as we would usually imagine it

Last edited by Calliban (2023-12-03 07:51:33)

Void · 2023-12-03 08:48:24

Probably more like to be true, what you say, than not.

However, Chernobyl shows that Fungi can be extremely tolerant of high levels of radiation.

And productivity in that situation might be enhanced if ocean sediments were introduced as a catalyst.

Also, if CO2 and fertilizers were introduced, the productivity might be higher.

I am more interested in this as how a natural situation might exist, but it would be interesting to see how high the rate of growth could be pushed if the conditions were optimized.

Ocean floor sediments only have a little radiation intensity, and it is not likely that Carbon and Nitrogen compounds are strongly circulated in those sediments. But a very low gravity moon like Enceladus, might have much greater porosity in its sediments, and a moon like Europa may have higher radioactivity in its sediments if the ice shell is tectonic in nature.

In a artificial space environment, it might be possible to have a very low g spin gravity situation where nutrients could be circulated, and waste from nuclear reactors could be mixed in with the sediments. In such situations fungi seem to adapt surprisingly well, and in some cases seem to have developed a pigment that may allow them to synthesize off of gamma rays.

I would be surprised if a commercial result could be produced, but I do not fully rule it out. Of course I would expect that any resulting organic materials would not be fit for human consumption and may need to be isolated from humans in general.

But the concept is interesting.

As I have mentioned before, I suspect that this process might produce excess free oxygen as the organisms have to reject some of the presumed produced Oxygen in order to keep their body tissues unoxidized.

Around Saturn for sure I would be more likely to try to use sunlight in a more traditional method to produce organic matter and Oxygen.

But the idea that out there, what we consider to be processes hostile to life are producing food for ecosystems is really interesting to contemplate.

It is as if the universe deals in life and death all at the same time.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-03 08:56:15)

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Radioactive Oceans, source of Organics and Oxygen?

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