Generating wealth from intermittent sources. Credit to Calliban.

Void · 2023-11-26 11:06:04

If the management wants this gone or modified, then please give directions for it.

I have seen Calliban and perhaps some others approaching plans to satisfy the Subject above.

For the moment the intermittent raw source of benefit might be wind or solar power.

The concept might avoid the cost of energy storage partly or completely.

While it might be a self-sufficient system, it might also connect to an energy grid and on occasion export and import energy.

I will next bring text from the members related to the stimulation of myself to create this topic.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 93#p216293
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 09#p216309
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 76#p216376

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-11-26 11:17:18)

Void · 2023-11-26 11:18:20

I will let other members such as Calliban represent their version/ideas as they may wish.

I would use the phrase "Active Diode System", in this case.

The system would have an active mode of operation when the sun was shining sufficiently and a more dormant action for the "Dark Phase".

This is originally conceived for Mars but might apply to other worlds, with some modifications.

The active solar mode would see fluids and organisms moved from a storage, to a transparent bubble in the sunshine.

While Solar microbes might be the organisms shifted, a plant like Duckweed might be possible as well.

And when the sun was not providing sufficient energy, then the reverse would occur, the fluids and organisms would go to storage.

The wealth resources that might be created could be:
1) Extracted Heat.
2) Oxygen Production
3) Distilled Water
4) Cleaned Water
5) Biomass/Food.

In the case of duckweed, at least the difference between Distilled Water and Cleaned Water, is one goes through a evaporate and condense process, and Cleaned water might be made usable by the organisms growing in the liquid water.

It is not required but I expect that solar energy to power this system will include:
1) Transparent Bubble.
2) Heliostats to present photons to #1.
3) Photovoltaic panels to provide intermittent electrical power to work in parallel with the whole process.

In the Dark Phase, the exterior devices #1, #2, #3 would not be powered or heated, to conserve energy loads.

During the Sun Phase, water vapor could be forcibly removed from the bubble and sent to a condenser by compression tank.
In order for the bubble to remain inflated, sufficient water and heat would be pushed into the dome. Heliostats would provide the needed heat.

The forcibly condensed distilled water would be of some warmth, and that could be extracted using a heat pump to create industrial grade heat.

Duckweed would he harder to handle than photo microbes, and would be involving more robotics, I would think. Not as much duckweed would be sent out to the Sun Phase of the bubble as it would be expected to grow. So, when the Duckweed was pulled back to storage, some of it would be harvested.

Thats a lot for now.

If you had water, at the location, lava tubes might be a good place for the storage sections.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-26 11:42:24)

Calliban · 2023-11-29 03:10:19

In theory, storage heaters like this, could provide a large part of the solution to integrating intermittent renewable energy into the grid.
https://www.esource.com/ES-WP-18/GIWHs

Storage heaters use resistance heaters to generate heat. The temperature of the heat generated is almost arbitrary, as the heating coil temperature is only limited by its melting point. Heat is stored in insulated containers filled with water, rock or some sort of phase change material. When grid electricity is over-abundant, heating elements are switched on, charging the thermal mass. Heating will be intermittent, but the heat load can be used as desired.

The advantage of this idea is that storage of energy in the form of heat is very cheap. Resistance heaters are low-tech devices with no moving parts aside from a switch. The thermal storage mass is usually a bulk, low-grade material like rock, sand, iron oxide or water. So the equipment itself is cheap and easy to build. And there is a high demand for heat in domestic, commercial and industrial applications. Thermal storage can absorb large quantities of energy and is one of the few technologies that can cost effectively store energy for long periods.

We could even use this technology to store electricity. Heating elements would dump heat into a container filled with rock when electricity is abundant. A steam plant would convert this heat back into electricity 24/7. The round trip efficiency would only be 40%, but waste heat from the steam plant could supply a district heating network.

Now for the downsides. In reality, using thermal storage to absorb excess grid energy would introduce a lot of complexity into the grid itself. It would require a grid control system able to activate millions of distributed heating elements throughout the country. This control system would need to be protected from hacking and sabotage by hostile actors. So whilst storage heaters would appear to be a neat solution to the problem of intermittent power generation, using them in this way builds a lot of extra complexity into the grid. This complexity introduces cost and vulnerability.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-11-29 03:16:24)

tahanson43206 · 2023-11-29 07:30:15

This post is inspired by a comment of Calliban in another topic .... in that topic, Calliban wrote about the "wealth" of wind power potentially available to the residents of the United Kingdom, and he specifically pointed out that when there is more power coming from wind generators than the grid can handle, then the mills have to be turned off, since the grid has to be managed in real time to match supply to load.

The discussion in Post #3 of this topic is about storage of energy in a thermal "container".

I'd be interested in evaluation of the proposition that when a generator is producing more power than is needed at a moment in time, it can be diverted to production of hydrogen and oxygen by electrolysis of water. It seems to me that these two elements can be stored for indefinite periods, and they do not lose their potency with time. When brought back into service, they are able to supply a high quality steam that may be more efficient in round trip than the corresponding thermal storage concept. Plus! When the elements are recombined to water, that water is pure, and it can be sold as pure water.

Update later ... perhaps the idea of using stored hydrogen and oxygen to make steam to feed a mechanical system is less efficient than a fuel cell would be.

(th)

Void · 2023-11-29 09:24:58

The post #3 Calliban and #4 (th), seem to fit in different ways perhaps. The scope of this topic includes stand-alone energy sources and also such energy sources which at times can do sharing with a grid.

For wind, the only application normally possible would be off peak heating of water as suggested in #3, I think. In post #3, something closer to what (th) proposed might be possible.

A thing I might propose for offshore, relating to #3 would be surface water fertilization, to augment Carbon capture into ocean life forms. Most wind would currently be local to the country hosting the wind farms. A simple method would be to simply mix cold lower water with warmer surface water, in proportions that the output would put nutrients into the water column high enough for sufficient sunlight to impinge on it. While this might use surplus electric power from a wind farm, it is also possible that power might be send from land at times to power this process. This then uses the conductors for something useful even when the wind is low. But it presumes that you have some type of land based power with a surplus such as solar or nuclear.

An alternative would be to incorporate the OTEC technology into the system. This also could bring nutrients into the sunlight, and may generate distilled water. Most OTEC is surface based, but if you were on the continental shelves then it might be that most of this could be submarine on the bottom. In some cases if you had hot water tanks, then those would be used in the OTEC process, of course in most cases tanks of hot water on the bottom of the continental shelves would be heated with excess wind energy, or power from land sent out to the wind farm.

----

Two types of solar I see as separate are rooftop distributed, and solar farms, potentially over water. A strength I see for rooftop distribution is that indeed you might involve them in off-peak water tank heating. Also, these may be stand-alone to some extent but still also connectable to a grid as needed. Such subsystems would help to reduce social hierarchy, which I feel is very important, particularly to the more truly western cultures. Our cultures are constantly under assault from posers/mimics, who have short-cut minds and are parasitic in their nature. They most often may come from old cultures in my opinion. They are constantly trying to squeeze wealth out of the citizens. No, I am not what you would call a lefty. For instance, I consider Elon Musk to be a creator, not a looter, and not a parasite, so think he should be given quite a lot of leeway to do what he can so. On the other hand, when I see he and others like him I really do think that this is the Parasitic Looter/mimic minds in action. So, I like distributed solar power on rooftops.

As for solar farms, other than feeding a grid, indeed some sort of intermittent local production might be employed, maybe a bit like what (th) has suggested.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-29 09:48:53)

Calliban · 2023-11-30 02:02:00

Hydrogen has the problem of being a diffuse gas that is difficult to store. At high pressure it is soluble in water and it diffuses through metals and ceramics, making it difficult to store for long periods. It's boiling point is 20K and its critical point is 32K. So it cannot be liquefied by any amount of compression.

But it could have direct uses that do not require storage. For example, hydrogen is a feedstock for ammonia production. We use ammonia as fertiliser and it can be stored as a saturated liquid at a pressure of about 8 bars. Hydrogen can also be burned in kilns to produce the heat needed to manufacture cement. Hydrogen is also valuable as a reducing agent. Biomass heated in the presence of hydrogen can be reduced into shorter chain hydrocarbons that may have use as fuels. If hydrogen is passed over hot iron oxide at 800°C, it will reduce the oxide to metallic iron. This can be seperated by milling and magnetic seperation and then converted to steel in an electric arc furnace. Carbon dioxide extracted from sea water will react with hydrogen to produce methane, methanol, ethylene and acetic acid. These are all synthetic fuels and can also form the foundation of plastics industry. We have discussed before the use of acetic acid as a feedstock for food production.

So hydrogen presents a pathway to the four material pillars of civilisation: Ammonia, polymers, steel and cement. If hydrogen is produced using intermittent energy, we must figure out ways of using it to produce these things in batch processes. But this shouldn't be too difficult. We get around the storage problem with hydrogen by using it as soon as it is made, in chemical reactions that produce other material commodities.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-11-30 02:04:19)

Void · 2023-11-30 08:19:58

That is interesting Calliban. I will note that it might be possible to inject Hydrogen into a natural gas pipe.
That could get complex, but it avoids using the electric power grids.

You however made me think of Acetate. On Earth the creation would allow it to be stored, and the Oxygen could be dumped into the atmosphere. On Mars, using it to grow Algae, Yeast, and Mushrooms might make sense.

For the moment I am looking at these: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets … bad4&ei=35
Quote:

The Cool Down
These remarkable floating solar panels solve one of the biggest problems with sun-based energy — here’s how they work
Story by Rick Kazmer •
5d

To do this: https://scitechdaily.com/artificial-pho … 0to%20grow. Quote:

Artificial Photosynthesis Can Produce Food in Complete Darkness
TOPICS:PhotosynthesisPlant SciencePopularUC Riverside
By UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA – RIVERSIDE JUNE 25, 2022

Quote:

The new research, published on June 23, 2022, in the journal Nature Food, uses a two-step electrocatalytic process to convert carbon dioxide, electricity, and water into acetate, the form of the main component of vinegar. Food-producing organisms then consume acetate in the dark to grow. Combined with solar panels to generate electricity to power the electrocatalysis, this hybrid organic-inorganic system could increase the conversion efficiency of sunlight into food, up to 18 times more efficient for some foods.

I would not forbid the connection of this to a local grid or the use of some energy storage. Energy storage might be just enough to smooth out a cloudy day's fluctuations in output. Perhaps an Iron/Air battery method?

And on occasion if it made sense electric power could be exchanged either way from a local grid with perhaps solar panels to a greater grid.

On Mars the creation of biomass of Algae, Yeast, and Mushrooms might be the primary objective.

On Earth there might be a connection to fish farming.

The system would not run at night, unless the creation of acetate could be fun from power from an external grid which might be wind powered.

Maybe the economics would make sense.

I think that the system used on Mars could create excess Oxygen, as the only way the process would consume all the Oxygen would be if all of the Organic Matter was burned back to CO2 and H20.

Done

On Mars a cold water reservoir, ice covered might be mechanically covered by vapor barrier materials, and solar panels. But a warm water tank(s) could be in the cold waters below, and this could be a type of farm which I think would give food and Oxygen.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-30 08:43:35)

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#1 2023-11-26 11:06:04

Generating wealth from intermittent sources. Credit to Calliban.

#2 2023-11-26 11:18:20

Re: Generating wealth from intermittent sources. Credit to Calliban.

#3 2023-11-29 03:10:19

Re: Generating wealth from intermittent sources. Credit to Calliban.

#4 2023-11-29 07:30:15

Re: Generating wealth from intermittent sources. Credit to Calliban.

#5 2023-11-29 09:24:58

Re: Generating wealth from intermittent sources. Credit to Calliban.

#6 2023-11-30 02:02:00

Re: Generating wealth from intermittent sources. Credit to Calliban.

#7 2023-11-30 08:19:58

Re: Generating wealth from intermittent sources. Credit to Calliban.

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