Units of Measure

tahanson43206 · 2023-11-24 08:09:54

For SpaceNut ....

We did not have a topic that contained the words "unit" and "measure" ...

In a recent post, Mars_B4_Moon has brought up the question of how power might be measured on Mars.

The hour on Mars is longer than an hour on Earth, because the minute is longer (by NASA practice, as I understand).

This would mean that the number of electrons of current would be greater than the one on Earth.

Because humans are going to be travelling all over the Solar System, it seems to me that it is likely they will prefer to hold onto as many units of Measure as possible.

I don't think the matter has received much attention to this point. Humans are not yet a multi-planet species.

However, this topic is available for thoughtful discussion of how humans might manage units of measure as they venture away from Earth.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-11-24 08:14:50

The Proposed Business Calendar for Mars is built upon the proposition that a Martian "Sol" will contain precisely 24 hours.

It follows that each of 24 hours would contain 60 minutes.

It appears that someone at NASA decided to elongate the minute to fit 60 of them into an hour on Mars.

The advantage of this idea is to be able to retain the existing Earth "Second" length.

I am inclined to prefer to keep 60 seconds in a minute, and to elongate the second.

How this shakes out is "to be determined"

In any case, it most definitely ** will ** become an issue at some point.

This topic is available for links and comments (or questions) about how these issues might be resolved.

(the)

tahanson43206 · 2023-11-24 08:36:04

I find myself taken aback by the response provided by ChatGPT4 to my inquiry today. ChatGPT4 is a paid version. It has recently been enhanced to perform live Internet lookups, and in this case, it consulted Wikipedia and NASA as well as astronomical resources.

20231124ChatGPT4UnitsOfMeasure
tahanson43206
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ChatGPT 4
You
Units of Measure - Hello Again ... the question has come up in discussion of how humans will manage Units of Measure as they venture away from Earth. I think this is an interesting question. The matter is NOT academic. We are dealing already with the rotation rate of Mars, which is slightly slower than that of Earth. I understand that NASA may have decided to elongate the minute, in order to keep 60 minutes in an hour and 24 hours in a Sol. Can you find any reference to confirm that?
ChatGPT
NASA and other Mars missions have indeed adapted their timekeeping to account for the longer Martian day, or "sol." A Martian solar day is approximately 24 hours, 39 minutes, and 35 seconds, which is about 2.75% longer than an Earth day. To accommodate this difference, a convention used by spacecraft lander projects has been to enumerate local solar time using a 24-hour "Mars clock," on which the hours, minutes, and seconds are 2.75% longer than their standard Earth durations. This approach allows the use of standard timekeeping tools without the need to handle times greater than 23:59, and aligns the Mars time of noon at 12:00 with Earth time approximately 12 hours and 20 minutes after midnight.
You
Thank you for this helpful opening reply! Can you refine the search to determine if the minutes are elongated, or if the seconds are elongated.
ChatGPT
On Mars, time is kept slightly differently than on Earth due to the longer Martian day, or sol. A sol is about 2.75% longer than an Earth day, lasting 24 hours, 39 minutes, and 35 seconds. This time difference is handled by elongating the Martian second, minute, and hour. Specifically, on Mars, a solar hour is 1 hour, 1 minute, and 39 seconds long, a solar minute is 61.65 seconds, and a solar second is 1.0275 seconds. This system of timekeeping is used by NASA and other space agencies to coordinate activities on Mars, aligning with the local solar time.
You
Thank you! What is implied by your answer is that someone at NASA must have decided to keep the Earth second as a Universal Unit of Time Measurement. Can you confirm that?
ChatGPT
The decision to maintain the Earth second as a universal unit of time measurement for space missions is not explicitly stated in the information available. However, the approach of elongating Martian minutes and seconds relative to their Earth equivalents, as used in Martian timekeeping, suggests that the Earth second serves as a baseline or reference point. This methodology allows for a consistent and understandable timekeeping system across different planetary environments, while still accommodating the unique rotational period of each celestial body, like Mars. This approach would be in line with the goal of maintaining a certain level of universality and consistency in time measurement for space missions.
You
This has been a most productive conversation. Thank you for doing the online lookups you used to improve the product! I am happy that things seem to be settling down in the management structure of your creator company, and look forward to enjoying the benefits of working with you into the future.
ChatGPT
You're very welcome! I'm glad I could assist you with your inquiry and provide useful information. If you have any more questions in the future, whether about space exploration, timekeeping, or any other topic, feel free to reach out. Enjoy your journey into the fascinating world of space and time, and I look forward to assisting you again!
ChatGPT can make mistakes. Consider checking important information.
ChatGPT

I doubt the solution worked out above is going to be the last word on the subject.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-11-24 09:31:44

The SI to metric is another problem for all that live in one or the other area that only uses 1 or the other. It was why a mars lander went cah-splat on the surface.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-28 19:58:19

I would say we keep Earth units for as long as possible.

Changing a unit of time could create a Mars nightmare of different figures that an Earth person can not relate to?

Your air changes per min and per sec and per hour, Air entering a space from an air-conditioning, heating, or ventilating apparatus, the time it takes to boil a pot in Earth pressure changes in 'Mars Time' your delicious recipe for cooking changes and you ruined dinner.

Any units linking to time will have changes, your heart beat changes, your wages change, your photograph and computer animation standards from Earth changes with a new unit for film and photography and Frame rate.
Words per second or per minute changes, stuff fired out of a machine per second changes, the Revolutions per minute or second changes, the beat or tempo for a standard song changes.
The 'Gravity of Earth' will change if measured in 'Mars time' the 'Viscosity' change if measured by a Mars clock, the 'Fastest animal' on Earth now running on Mars will travel a strange number of seconds on Mars.
Your speed 'signs' will change. Your computer speed will change the per second (bit/s) and bytes per or Megs per second, your musical standard changes your tone or pitch or key changes with Frequency defined as the number of cycles per second, measured in hertz (Hz). Mars might have different road signs than Earth because of the natural color of Mars and even if you were to try and standarize signs on Mars, the two big nations landing stuff on Mars, the USA and China never signed up to an Earth 'standard' on road signs.

How will you measure the healthy 'heart' at so many beats a second or 60 to 100 beats per minute.

Will the Martian change their meters per seconds?

Driving your car or Bike or Truck on a busy Mars colony and busy roads? Look at how difficult it has been for humans to agree to standards.

The two biggest players landing Rovers on Mars today, the USA followed by China both nations have never signed a 'UN Road Standard' or Vienna Convention on Road Traffic, Colombia or República de Colombia did not sign, Canada did not sign and Australia did not sign and neither have North Korea or Ethiopia signed but signs in Canada kind of look like road signs in Australia maybe the British Empire influence?

Road signs in Canada looks similar to England or Australia and sometimes Canadian signs may change language and in Quebec you will see an 'ARRÊT' instead of a stop but the 'Stop' sign Octagon is the same the world over, they have also started to use Inuktitut or Cree language symbols in some regions instead of English language or Latin Latin English Roman alphabet script. Communist or former Soviet USSR States also signed the Vienna Convention on having some kind of road sign standard. There may be signs of Cyrillic or Ukrainian or Russian or Greek scripts in each nation but the Greek signs look almost the same as the rest of the World or the UN or Europe standard but the Greeks might use both Greek and English words on their signs.

and on the subject of different Speed signs between Earth and Mars, road signs, kph, mph and the colors, Mars already has a lot of Orange and Red, is it wise to use an Orange or Red as a warning when Red or Orange as a color does not stand out against the Mars landscape? ....on Earth we use Earth hours but this has been very difficult to standardize, and the USA does its own thing and hates been told what to do least of all by it's own government but there have been attempts to standardize road signs on Earth which have been semi- successful,
Spain, Germany, France, Japan, all have similar road signs and road speed markings, even India or some far off island looks the same.
Give way or Yield is usually an upside-down triangle and a red barrier, the same in Australia although in Japan they have switched between a shape that looks like a stop or a yield and for a time used black and yellow but typically in Japan a stop symbol at least looks like a yield to others so from other parts of the word you could mistake this as a 'Yield' or Give way so the Japanese sign is red with the word Tomare '止まれ' ...but stop and give way are similar-ish signals and there is a 'Stop Ahead' sign across Europe that looks almost exactly like the Japan stop sign, Australia has a number of Retired signs or signs they want to get rid of. If you read old Japanese characters it is possible you might guess the meaning of a Chinese sign 'Exit to Southbound' or 'Traffic Westbound' or Police Station or School or the 'Exit' is the same or the symbol for Blabla Whatever Mountain at so many meters elevation will be 'the same' for example but this is only because of the old link between the ancient pictogram idea of the languages and sometimes simplified Chinese and Japanese have very different characters. In South Korea the 'No Stopping' or no parking looks almost the same as the rest of the word, the Stop sign looks the same as the rest of the world and even has the word 'Stop' on it written in English, the Yield sign looks the same and even has the word 'Yield' on it but in South Korea there are also yellow backgrounds, red borders and black pictograms to learn.
In Chile the Give Way sign is similar to others around the world, in Argentina the 'Yield' sign similar again to others, in Brazil the same
The sign for Low-flying aircraft is similar across the world, or the sign for 'End of all Previously signed Restrictions' the same the world over or the Sign for 'No Vehicles Allowed' or Closed to all vehicles the same from Latin America to Europe to Vietnam, the sign for a Trucks and the Bridge or Tunnel Height limit the same or Tunnel Truck Width limit the same across the world but maybe not the USA.
The 'Stop' is almost the same the world over but there are people who do there own this it is typically a red octagon surrounded by white octagon barrier with the words 'Stop' wrote as a stop sign but it can be different colors or different shapes, the sign for 'Road Narrows' is the same the world over.
The sign indicators for the speed limits are almost the same the world over, the United States wanted to develop a 'world standard' but the some like the USA didn't care for the UN.
It kind of made logical sense because if you learn the road signs in a foreign country there is a good chance you already know the sign 'No Parking' for the next country or nation you visit, it is a blue circle with a red cross-line, when you came to a sign you did not come to it with your vehicle confused and not know what the standard sign traffic sign means.

but for the USA the States handle local road signs not 'The Federal Government' however they can use a legal work around and threaten to pull US Federal Funding for Local States if they do not comply with a Federalized Standard.

'The maddening vagueness of European road signs'
> you might have to copy and paste the url with the ' @ ' symbol
https://medium.com/@ronradu/the-maddeni … bc8b3197e1

After thousands of kilometers driven, I’ve come to know what most of these signs mean, but every so often I am reminded just how unfriendly and confusing some of them are. Even while acknowledging that the inherent polyglottal nature of the European population means road signs have to rely less on words in any particular language and more on universal symbols, some of the signs just don’t make any damn sense.

Some other things that will change per hour, 'wages' US Dollars, Yen, Euros or Bitcoin or Marscoins paid per hour

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-12-28 20:09:53)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-04-05 15:57:38

White House directs NASA to develop lunar time

pdf

https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/u … Policy.pdf

“As NASA, private companies and space agencies around the world launch missions to the Moon, Mars and beyond, it’s important that we establish celestial time standards for safety and accuracy,” Steve Welby, OSTP deputy director for national security, said in a statement.
Simply using UTC in cislunar space is inadequate for precision operations, the policy notes. UTC is tied to Earth-based systems, but relativistic effects mean a second on the moon is not the same length as one on Earth. “For example, to an observer on the Moon, an Earth-based clock will appear to lose on average 58.7 microseconds per Earth-day with additional periodic variations,” the policy states.

California lawmaker introduces new bill to end daylight saving time

https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news … ving-time/

Moon Standard Time? Nasa to create lunar-centric time reference system
https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 … lunar-time

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-04-06 07:41:08

On Earth atomic clocks and the centi second used by stop watches, the super super fast picosecond 10−12 s or less fast but also superfast nanosecond 10−9 s time for molecules to fluoresce, in Einstein's theory of relativity, rates of time run differently depending on relative motion, and space and time are merged into spacetime, where we live on a world line. Ilya Prigogine tried to explain why we do not see Anti-Time events that statistical and thermodynamic physics can explain irreversible phenomena, a Belgian physical chemist of Russian-Jewish origin, noted for his work on complex systems, and reversibility, as well as the arrow of time and the Big Bang. Time was also seen as a clock measurement in the past, the sequence of Sun and seasonal movement, a set of events by adding a ternary "between-ness" a counting of numbers or division relation of the form, the "x is between y and z" the shadow clock, sun dial, the sand timer and water clocks in ancient times. In the 1980s and 1990s Radio-controlled clocks become common place in Europe and the USA. Schrödinger equation is a linear partial differential equation that governs the wave function of a quantum-mechanical system, Time evolution is the change of state brought about by the passage of time, applicable to systems with internal state. The atomic clock today is a clock that measures time by monitoring the resonant frequency of atoms, the rubidium atomic clock a frequency standard in which a specified hyperfine transition of electrons in rubidium-87 atoms. In other observed events unanswered questions, a large cosmology event and the quantum level, the concept of 'Time' breaking down at high speeds, with massive objects, Gravity Waves and new theory not observed and unproven since we have ideas like gravitation or strings since wormholes are contortions of spacetime geometry.

Events that led scifi writers to ask questions of 'Time Travel'?

the hypothetical activity of traveling into the past or future, the Alcubierre drive a speculative warp drive idea according to which a spacecraft could achieve apparent faster-than-light travel by contracting space in front of it and expanding space behind it, or paradox and the tachyonic antitelephone is a hypothetical device in theoretical physics that could be used to send signals into one's own past.

MIT researchers use quantum computing to observe entanglement
https://news.mit.edu/2022/mit-researche … ement-1201
Researchers at the Center for Theoretical Physics lead work on testing quantum gravity on a quantum processor.

Spacetime
https://brilliant.org/wiki/spacetime/
'Time runs at different speeds for different observers'

A History of the Rubidium Frequency Standard
https://ghostarchive.org/archive/oMcfH

The measurement of the 'second' observed by the human on Planet Earth, second (symbol: s) is the unit of time in the International System of Units (SI) the SI has defined the second as the duration of 9192631770 cycles of radiation corresponding to the transition between two energy levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom.

Le Système international d’unités (SI)
https://web.archive.org/web/20210604163 … hure_8.pdf

The madness of a Napoleon calendar or French Republican calendar Republican Calendar?

The French Revolutionary calendar (also known as the French Republican calendar) had 3 weeks in a month, 10 days in a week, and 10 hours in a day.
https://snippetsofparis.com/french-revo … -calendar/
What could go possibly wrong?

France had trade links and borders with the rest of Europe and North America who were following the Gregorian calendar.
The ordinary French worker now needed to work 9 days before having 1 day off, instead of 6 under the old system.
The new clocks were confusing, and this part of the project only lasted for 17 months.

The Short, Strange History of Decimal Time
https://gizmodo.com/the-short-strange-h … me-5886129

The megasecond is a masurement spanning from weeks to years.
A centi second is in common use in Sports it is one hundredth of one second, the mili-second thousandth and micro-second millionth of one second, the lifetime of a muon particle

'Exclusive: White House directs NASA to create time standard for the moon'
https://www.reuters.com/science/white-h … 024-04-02/

The differing gravitational force, and potentially other factors, on the moon and on other celestial bodies change how time unfolds relative to how it is perceived on Earth. Among other things, the LTC would provide a time-keeping benchmark for lunar spacecraft and satellites that require extreme precision for their missions.
"The same clock that we have on Earth would move at a different rate on the moon," Kevin Coggins, NASA's space communications and navigation chief, said in an interview.

OSTP chief Arati Prabhakar's memo said that for a person on the moon, an Earth-based clock would appear to lose on average 58.7 microseconds per Earth-day and come with other periodic variations that would further drift moon time from Earth time.
"Think of the atomic clocks at the U.S. Naval Observatory (in Washington). They're the heartbeat of the nation, synchronizing everything. You're going to want a heartbeat on the moon," Coggins said.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2024-06-04 14:34:40)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-06-04 14:31:20

a question posted 4 years ago

topic updated

'How does time work on other planets?'

https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … er-planets

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2024-06-04 14:35:01)

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#1 2023-11-24 08:09:54

Units of Measure

#2 2023-11-24 08:14:50

Re: Units of Measure

#3 2023-11-24 08:36:04

Re: Units of Measure

#4 2023-11-24 09:31:44

Re: Units of Measure

#5 2023-12-28 19:58:19

Re: Units of Measure

#6 2024-04-05 15:57:38

Re: Units of Measure

#7 2024-04-06 07:41:08

Re: Units of Measure

#8 2024-06-04 14:31:20

Re: Units of Measure

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