Technological Cumulativeness, (Accumulation).

Void · 2023-11-19 07:43:46

With the permission of the moderators, I will start this. I know we have technological updates already, but what I am thinking about is how unless we have a civilization collapse, we should have an ever-expanding library of accumulation of improvements.

As long as we can keep the librarians from having excessive powers over the distribution of knowledge of this sort, we may suppose that over time problems that seem insurmountable may over time be solved to a better accumulating degree of improvement.

Evil librarians are priests who posture as intellectuals of final authority. They sort of exist between religion and the material world and seek to exploit the common people by establishing hierarchy to a level which prohibits highest efficiency of productivity of a society.

These are the types who may feel that suffering is good for the lower classes. They are essentially looters.

They are basically in association with Royalty of the right and left ranks, and I feel they emerged from the emergence of humans into farming societies from hunter gatherer societies.

Just now they do not appear to have the upper hand.

The current high-tech billionaires are for the most part not looters in my opinion so I very much feel they should have as minimal interference from society as possible, as per regulation of their activities.

Done

This comes from betters than me I would suppose: https://direct.mit.edu/qss/article/2/3/ … -knowledge

Technological Cumulativeness, (Accumulation)., sounds so much better than Technological Accumulations. So, thanks to the author(s).

Done

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries. … cumulative
Quote:

cumulative adjective
OPAL W
/ˈkjuːmjələtɪv/
/ˈkjuːmjəleɪtɪv/
having a result that increases in strength or importance each time more of something is added
. the cumulative effect of human activity on the world environment
. The evolution of human life was a gradual, cumulative process.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-19 08:57:36)

Void · 2023-11-19 07:48:27

I had been considering starting this topic for some time but this new thing pushed me over the edge today. I think it is rather a good thing.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani … e61e7&ei=8
Quote:

Vertical photovoltaics. Innovative set-up generates more electricity
Story by KLT •
4d

Image Quote: AA1jWfPV.img?w=534&h=419&m=6

https://www.overeasy.no/
Image Quote: e79af6_66dd5e05f5784192a03db9109912dda6~mv2.jpg

Necessity being "The Mother of Invention", it is not surprising the Norwegians would be involved with this.

Although I am supposed to be part Swedish, part of that is Norwegian as it turns out, so that's nice, something to feel good about, I guess.

So, this is not a technical origination of a skill, but an improvement on an existing skill accumulating more beneficial output from my point of view.

I live west(Sometimes), and south(sometimes of Lake Superior, so our winters may have more sunlight than Norway in the winter. But we also can be assured of snow. We tend to have hot summers also.

So obviously the system will tend to shed snow, and also snow on the "Ground" in the winter will tend to reflect light back onto the panels.

In the summer the panels may shade a roof, and also the flow of air should keep them cooler.

And it you were on a roof with this system, watering vegetation would tend to give evaporative cooling.

Of course, a flat roof tends to leak more, but I guess it may be worth it.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-19 08:05:46)

Void · 2023-11-19 08:07:53

Another path to accumulation would be "Self Healing Solar Panels".

https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/04/ … ean-energy
Quote:

Self-healing solar panels may be the future of reliable clean energy

The "Electric Viking" mentioned this in one video.

The idea is that solar panels may be able to last much longer than 20-30 years, maybe even hundreds of years. No promises on that but no reason not to have a look at it over time.

I think that solar energy is good in the correct proportions. Most power needs to come in through a grid from a remote location. Solar power can be more local, and that could improve recovery in the case of a temporary breakdown of a power grid.

Anyone who has a cell phone knows that when it is 100% charged power is not an issue, but when you get down to 5 to 10%, it becomes very important to have some power, even if it is intermittent.

So, by no means do I think it is a good idea to try to kill solar energy. It has a special quality that can make our situations more resilient in times of stress.

And over time efficiency has been increasing and may still do so for a while.

Done

Query: "Self healing solar panels"
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Self+heal … D8995DF47B

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-19 08:17:23)

Void · 2023-11-19 08:20:02

I have seen mention of different types of windmills than what is currently standard, and also mention of the future use of Carbon in the structure of the windmills, instead of "Fiberglass"?

Recycling of windmills is a concern.

Query: "Windmills made of Carbon, recycling"
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Windmills … cc=0&ghpl=

I get annoyed, you use the word "Carbon" in reference to a windmill and then of course you get flooded with "Green think", which obscures your objective.

This seems to be an encouraging article about recycling and more, but not about Carbon in the structure: https://www.energy.gov/eere/wind/wind-t … ainability

Anyway, if wind has problems now, technical accumulation over time should reduce those problems.

Here is a possible one here, not Carbon but maybe better: https://www.ucdavis.edu/climate/news/a- … ine-blades Quote:

A Sustainable Solution: Compostable Wind Turbine Blades
Blades Made From Bamboo and Mycelium Could Keep a Growing Number of Wind Blades Out of Landfills
by Sharon Campbell Knox May 30, 2023

So, again this is not a new technology at the basic level but a possible improvement with the accumulations of technical skills.

I hope that they can make it work.

Done

And there may be different types of windmills that will emerge. We have already looked at this one elsewhere: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1jC2U3
Quote:

share
Bill Gates backs innovative wind energy alternative:

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-19 08:33:35)

Void · 2023-11-19 08:59:10

My next post is about SpaceX Starship and Vast Space.

It seems that sage "0" may not be damaged much in an optimal launch situation.

Next then in my opinion is to bring the 1st stage to a similar result.

At that point the "Stack" would be operating similar to the Falcon 9 "Stack", except that the raptors are much better than the Merlin engines.

But they should then be in reach of putting large payloads into orbit at a favorable price, provided they can get sufficient launch facilities, and launch permissions from authority. This would be without yet being able to recover the 2nd Stages.

I don't think that they will ever make all Starships capable of atmospheric entry, as Lunar Starship shows that they may not.

Such a situation of the sacrifice of a stage to achieve an objective is not that unusual it is done all the time with Falcon 9 and also in some situations with the 1st stage as well. And of course, Falcon Heavy does it on occasion.

But a "Naked Starship" not for the Moon, might have value in orbit, I think. Eventually it may be subject to salvage, but early on not so much, but I can imagine using one with Vast Space technology to achiever experiments with synthetic gravity.

So, after discharging payload such as for Starlink, you would have this "Naked Starship" carcass in orbit. It would make a nice center of mass for a synthetic gravity experiment, I would think. Actually, you could also do it with a test Starship with atmospheric entry cababilities as well.

https://www.vastspace.com/

So of course after testing the first space station of vast, I can see that it might not be that strange to link it to a Starship and spin the assembly to get some test data. So, this could likely come early on. Might even be possible to do this for Lunar Gravity simulations to see how humans respond to a month of it.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-11-19 09:15:54)

Void · 2023-11-19 18:15:00

Continuing from the previous post, I have had a notion that a fixture could be placed over the engine bell of a Starship and the engines could be unhooked, and "Packed" for shipment back to Earth in another atmosphere capable Starship.

Possibly the fixture could bolt or otherwise be connected to the engine bell. The fixture might have a "Rubber/Plastic" sleeve which could go inside of the inner perimeter of the engine bell. Perhaps then the engine bell could be pressurized for the engine removal.

Then the thing could be reopened to get the packed engines out for transfer to the Atmosphere capable Starship.

If desired then the fixture could be reconnected to the engine bell, and that fixture might have a port for the Vast Space module and a Dragon Capsule. Then if desired spin tests could be done.

While there could be a notion of making the propellant tanks and cargo compartment habitable, I think I would take counsel from Dr. Johnson that that might take more effort than making a space station module(s) and bringing them up to LEO.

In that case I would like to think that eventually you would have tools that could cut the Starship up as space junk to be used as propellant or feed stock for 3D printers. For parts of the ship, the tank walls, I think a cutter could be designed, but for some other parts of the ship it may be harder to do. But Neumann Space intends to harvest space junk of many sorts so maybe it could be done.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-19 18:22:36)

Void · 2023-11-19 18:33:58

Something that I think needs work is floating solar with pumped hydro energy storage.

The Colorado River comes to mind as I don't think the reservoirs freeze too much, but reservoirs anywhere might be suitable. If people are looking for places to do pumped hydro, then go to some place where hydro-electric is already in place.

Of course, for wind the Missouri River reservoirs might work out, but there would be seasonal ice.

Done

kbd512 · 2023-11-19 18:55:55

Void,

Photovoltaic panels that can "self-repair" would be a good thing, provided they're not made from Unobtainium, and that there's enough of whatever materials they required to be made, to begin with.

I don't think there is any presently sustainable solution involving photovoltaics and wind turbines, it's all an obfuscation of absurd over-consumption of more hydrocarbon fuels.

If we started from the standpoint of a photovoltaic panel that could potentially last for hundreds of years and that was what we were mass-producing, and the materials were abundant, then yes, it would stupid to kill development of photovoltaic panels, because over time they could provide a lot of energy.

My issue is that's not where we started, and that's not what we're doing, and pretending that dumping more money into a non-workable solution is a good idea, is totally asinine. We can't power entire countries using photovoltaics, if for no other reason than they presently produce energy 11% of the time.

A compostable wind turbine blade means it's highly likely to catastrophically fail in operation, and a tacit admission that the blade waste being generated is not sustainable. That said, if we can grow new wind turbine blades from bamboo and fungus, and we can truly compost them without toxic chemicals, then I'm 100% behind trying the idea to see how well it works in practice. If it does work, then that means we outlaw producing wind turbine blades using synthetic composites (same as how we outlaw running a car without a catalytic converter and outlaw nuclear power plants from dumping their waste wherever they want to), because we already know what will happen to the blades when they break- 90% of them go straight to the landfill and there's no practical possibility of doing anything else with them, except burning them.

As far as pumped hydro storage is concerned, I think it's great, but estimate the cost of building enough reservoir capacity to account for the fact that we only get 11% of the 8,760 total possible generating hours per year from photovoltaics, or maybe 33% of 8,760 possible total generating hours per year from wind turbines. It's not doable. That doesn't automatically mean more storage is bad, but it's a non-viable solution to the larger problem.

Look at it this way: If dollars were in limited supply, where would you invest your dollars to get the biggest bang for your buck?

Void · 2023-11-19 19:15:23

I only suggested using the existing reservoirs.

Some solutions may be worth the trouble for some countries, maybe not for others.

Now here is a thing that you might like or maybe not be happy about. I am happy myself.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VRDGAR
Quote:

Moving waste heat from industry to homes.
YouTube
Just Have a Think
18.9K views
7 hours ago

So, the point of this topic is " Technological Cumulativeness, (Accumulation).", which means that you are looking to future improvements, not dwelling on current deficiencies.

Will every venture pay off? No, of course, but there is the potential that some may, and if we can find those they might pay off big time.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-19 19:23:56)

kbd512 · 2023-11-19 22:05:23

Void,

I take no issue with experimentation. We can experiment forever, but to what end? You're not going to find a way to "cheat" physics. I do have a big issue with forcing people to use something that's clearly not ready for prime time, using the power of government, especially when whether or not it's demonstrably "better" than whatever it's intended to replace requires a very narrow view of reality. Basically, don't expect me to drink the Kool-aid if you're unwilling to show me how it's made.

All of what you're pointing out here is something that anyone purporting to have an actual practical solution would've thought about ahead of time. The mere fact that they haven't, should tell you most of what you need to know. I can forgive not thinking ahead, because I know who I'm dealing with. "Big Ideas" people typically stumble over the basics. After they do the same thing enough times, though, I get the sense that they lack the ability to properly identify a "forest" when a huge group of trees is blocking their field of view.

So, yes, people finally waking up to the fact that they're being sold a bill of goods, and that they need to take a hard-nosed look at what they're actually accomplishing. I'm quite pleased that a lot of the existing non-solution wind turbine and photovoltaic projects have been outright canceled, after those involved accepted that they were not actual solutions and absurdly expensive, relatively to whatever meager benefits they may have provided. I'm equally pleased that the automotive manufacturers are starting to tell governments to either foot the bill for EV adoption, or to see what life is like without personal transportation, because they can't continue to lose money on every EV sold, into perpetuity.

1. This "green energy" fad was all ideologically-based, as opposed to pragmatic economic and resource constrained reality-based
2. No fundamentals are ever analyzed (how much input energy is required, where am I getting the raw materials from, can we make enough of this new tech for it to matter, etc)
3. Only outsized changes have outsized impacts (measurably move the needle in the direction you want to go), so is there anything at all that we've done with energy, apart from switching to natural gas from coal, that you see as having an outsized impact?

I know for a fact that no single person can properly consider and address all aspects or impacts of a purported solution, which is why we created markets, so that the market can tell you what's working and what's not, by voting with their dollars. Whenever governments fiddle with markets, negative / unhelpful results are a foregone conclusion.

"Proof" / Fantasy:
Study Confirms Climate Models are Getting Future Warming Projections Right

There’s an old saying that “the proof is in the pudding,” meaning that you can only truly gauge the quality of something once it’s been put to a test. Such is the case with climate models: mathematical computer simulations of the various factors that interact to affect Earth’s climate, such as our atmosphere, ocean, ice, land surface and the Sun.

Reality / "Pudding":
Manufacturing Alarm: Dana Nuccitelli’s Critique of John Christy’s Climate Science Testimony

The mathematical models are correct, and we're actively generating "proof" that they're correct, but the temperature observations just aren't cooperating with the models.

Which data set is wrong?

The ones generated by all those mathematical models, or the actual temperature record?

Maybe I recently lost my ability to read graphs, but could I be forgiven for thinking that it looks like the temperature models are diverging wildly from the temperature record.

These people are carnival clown show barkers, Void:

Meanwhile, the only "millions of people" who have died, were a direct result of the wars that President Bush, President Obama, and President Biden have started.

The Green Transition will not work as planned, what might we do instead? - Professor Simon Michaux

Void · 2023-11-20 04:41:48

The topic here is " Technological Cumulativeness, (Accumulation)." I prefer not to get too narrow. I have mentioned perhaps 5 or more subtopics, and I do not expect all of them to bear fruit, but am hopeful that some could.

If some "Royals" are trying to skim money off the population with verbal tricks, say climate conversations, that is simply an unfortunate factor that has to be worked around.

The "Royals" enjoy slavery, a top down with several hell layers for the undesirables. It was not invented in this country.

I cannot stop them from existing and polluting the potential for progress. When possible they need to be pushed away, to make room for actual progress.

But, in my opinion we do not have to do much as it is not their time anymore. Their time is drifting away, and the time of science and industry is emerging. Of course they will try to capture it into their Royal University Institutions and stifle actual progress but I don't believe that the inertia of reality will favor them in the next subperiod.

As I have previously in another topic show how innovation is showing up for wind, and you agreed that that might be worth a try, the only item I have produced here that you might object to is the solar panels. I know that you have had an unfortunate experience yourself in that.
But as I have said this topic is not about an executive function to make a binary choice of what child to keep and which to kill.

It is simply the recording of "Technological Cumulativeness".

I could also open the conversation on Nuclear Fission. When I found out that new reactor technology can change the "Toxic" nature of nuclear waste to vastly reduce the danger of it, and to also create massive amounts of energy, then I realized that we already have the bad parts of Nuclear Fission and cannot escape them but are suppressing potential good, due to outdated understandings of potential. Nuclear Fission is experiencing "Technological Cumulativeness".

Back to solar, one aspect of some of the solar panel tech, is that it can be very local. And that indicates that it could be very valuable in a circumstance where a grid goes down. Normally you want all the electricity you need, 24/7, but in a compromised situation, having a few hours of it daily could make a big difference as to getting things back on their feet again. So, I like a bit of solar for that reason if for no other.

The problem with Royals is that they are Anti-Industrial. They always have been. They like to be on top of the heap and want to be allowed to charge rents to the undesirables for even existing in "Their" world.

When the Anglicans broke off a chunk of the Roman Church for their own, that was the religion you needed to be to be in the Royals. Their colleges were about being proficient in dead languages, and to be a part of the ruling classes. The other religious sects which tended to be in the north, were prohibited from joining. So, they set up technical schools and invented the industrial revolution.

They were always despised by the old money to the south where the bulk of good land was. They liked being gentlemen farmers. The modern world happened in spite of them.

The three faces of Europe in my opinion are Club Med., The ocean coast, and the Steppes.

The west is a confusion between Club Med. (Which includes South England and South Ireland).

The Coast extends from Iberia to Siberia, and so crosses Club Med and the Steppes. There has always been this contest where the Royals feel that the "North" Needs to be subjugated to the "Green Royals".

This Green thing is not new. The gentlemen farmers have always resented that the people to the north could have any power at all. Industry gave that power that the "Old Money" could not so easily control, and they hate it and have been struggling to subjugate the middle class in this country.

But Soviets and China. Their little green butts would be in the wringer if industry did not give this country the means to compete.

Therefore, undesirables that can use tools and think get a chance.

I have a notion to be understanding of other cultures needs for the Royal function. I would not go on a rampage to unseat them, but I do not favor the idea of becoming impoverished to satisfy the unreasonable desires of the princess process, and the boy kings thy want pandering from.

The last move was theirs they sold the Rust Belt to China. I guess it kept the Soviets on a back foot so I can forgive it. But that time is no more, in fact I believe the flip side is here.

So, I am very interested in promoting: "Technological Cumulativeness, (Accumulation)."

So, then heck yes, experimentation and hurray for prosperity.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-20 05:10:04)

Void · 2023-11-21 06:28:21

OK, just a little progress for radiative panel energy: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/technol … r-AA16Ckf8

Quote:

These cutting-edge solar panels can even generate electricity at night — here’s how they work
Story by Ben Stern •
2h

It is not clear to me what the temperature differential magnitude does in the scheme.

Could one be made for radiating very hot temperatures?

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-21 06:29:08)

Void · 2023-11-21 06:31:34

Well, here is solar canals: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani … 9d908&ei=5
Image Quote: AA1keY4h.img?w=534&h=345&m=6

Stuff like that for Mars?

A canal water 33 feet deep equals about 333 mbar at the bottom.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-21 06:34:08)

Void · 2023-11-22 10:30:12

Well, if I understand it this is interesting.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/technol … 40bb&ei=44
Quote:

Company invents first-of-its-kind system for powering cars: ‘Like having a gas station with your own oil well’
Story by Jeremiah Budin •
5h

This could be done with other energy resources such as Nuclear perhaps.

So, you come home, and are in for the night, an advertisement says you can to the power tower, and get a deal. So you tell your self driving car go over there and charge up while you are asleep and then to come home.

If you are going driving you use the power for that, but if you are a home body today, you dump some of the power into your home grid, especially if you need it that day.

Well, that would be a weird world but maybe I will live to see it.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-22 10:34:25)

Void · 2023-11-28 11:18:28

Here is another one much different: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani … r-AA1kBGa5 Quote:

share
more
Ad
TheStreet
TheStreet
Elon Musk makes an enormous new promise for Neuralink
Story by Ian Krietzberg •
1d

Perhaps adding "Crystal Intelligence" to people.

https://www.thoughtco.com/fluid-crystal … 20improved. Quote:

Fluid vs. Crystallized Intelligence
The theory contends that there are two distinct types of intelligence. It challenges, and extends, the concept of g, or generalized intelligence factor.
Fluid intelligence is the ability to use logic and solve problems in new or novel situations without reference to pre-existing knowledge.
Crystallized intelligence is the ability to use knowledge that was previously acquired through education and experience.
Fluid intelligence declines with age, while crystallized intelligence is maintained or improved.

Probably useful on Mars and everywhere.

Done

I think that other than degradation of the body/brain, fluid intelligence may slow down with age is that the crystal database gets so much bigger, it would slow down the search engines.

This would be another case where our schooling system is probably stupid at times as it wants quick thinking, where elsewise a slow thinker not much damaged, may do broad slow thinking and arrive at something more, sometimes.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-28 11:24:51)

Void · 2023-11-28 20:55:54

I would like to let certain members know that I understand at this point the problems with the so-called green revolution.

I don't feel that it is my responsibility to make the world perfect for the little green cupcakes. I did my work in my time, and much of what the cupcakes have is from my generation and those before us.

But if I get a chance to participate in some improvement then I don't mind that at all.

Not guarantees of success or perfection are to be given. I can just as well like Thorium Nuclear reactors as to like solar and wind.

As for electric cars? That is not my fault or problem if that does not work out.

It may become true after all that Hydrogen or Ammonia cars may become a thing as well.

I think Iron Air batteries may have a good effect on the grids as it may limit the amount of electricity having to flow though the lines, if there is local storage from place to place.

Done

Void · 2023-12-01 07:44:22

Well like or hate here is something about a very large offshore wind farm https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets … 339e&ei=20 Quote:

The Cool Down
A ‘mega’ offshore wind farm just went online — and it will power over a million homes
Story by Leo Collis •
2h

Looks interesting to me.

Over time methods and skills that bring profit are likely to accumulate I expect for wind.

Done

This could be another post, but I will clip it to this one so as not to obscure the above material.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/technol … 45a6&ei=14
Quote:

The Cool Down
Footage shows innovative ‘self-climbing’ crane technology could completely revolutionize wind turbines
Story by Ben Raker •
2h

Video Quote: https://v16m-default.tiktokcdn-us.com/7 … =e00010000

Mega-Bots!

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-01 07:57:48)

Void · 2023-12-13 08:00:49

I feel that this is worth looking into: https://undecidedmf.com/what-really-hap … ar-panels/
Quote:

What REALLY happens to used Solar Panels?
Matt FerrellBy MATT FERRELL 14 hours ago

Well, I guess if they de develop ways to recycle panels, one thing to consider is how the panels are made in the first place. To make them more compatible with lower cost recycling methods.

---

I think I want to piccy-back this geothermal post onto this post: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 45#p216945 Quote:

This may be somewhat redundant to some prior posts, but it is from Peter Zeihan which is interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwgivqvvYDs
Quote:
Generating Geothermal Energy Using Shale Technology || Peter Zeihan
Zeihan on Geopolitics
672K subscribers

My feeling is that this technology could be used for geostorage as well. If you have excess electricity making hot water to shove down a well should be no problem, so that would fit well with wind and solar.
Done

----

The two, recycling solar panels and geothermal might not seem related, but may be if solar electric panels could be jointed to the geothermal.

And I feel they can be. If you have excess solar electric, it is more likely to be in the summers in most places. But not always, it could also be true any time of year in mid latitudes and tropics.

So for your cool liquid return on the fluid loop, you might do resistance heating to dump heat into the return fluid. This will help regenerate the geothermal well. And this could be seasonal and also periodic year around as well.

There are three things that are likely to be simultaneous when the sun is more intense:
1) The solar flux itself.
2) The temperature of the air in the area.
3) The output of solar electric and also solar thermal panels.

So, if we have solar electric panels, tied to a geothermal process, lets add an air fed heat pump system. I am not sure that a heat pump with an output of 180 degC is hot enough to be useful but it may well be. And there is some notion that hotter heat pumps may become available.

If we have cost effective solar thermal panels to pull heat from using electricity that drives a heat pump system powered by solar electric panels, then we have a large pulse of heating potential for the return fluids for a geothermal system.

In the case of very large buildings in hot climates, then instead of solar thermal panels you would simply use a building as a solar thermal collector by cooling it.

Hot buildings in the summer can occur in most places in the USA so this could have some potential as well.

But this is potentially a seasonal system where summer heat could be stored and converted into electricity more in the winter. But electricity might be output year around. In the winter the system would rely more on geostored energy, and in the summer would have more solar energy.

And of course, wind could be added to the mix.

Done

I guess I would add this: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1lrgy4 Quote:

A Potential World-Class Helium Discovery in Minnesota
Story by Joyce Sundy •
2h

If geothermal wells are being drilled in places not oil or gas fields, then at times there will be accidental discoveries of useful raw materials.

This in itself could help pay for such a incorporation of geothermal wells into our energy systems.

Done

So, over time the accumulation of better methods may well make things pay off better than they do now.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-13 08:50:45)

Void · 2023-12-13 13:40:51

It does seem sometimes that possibly people prefer problems rather than solutions

Done

Void · 2023-12-21 08:32:22

In the interest of cheering up people subject to despair: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets … 142a&ei=21
Quote:

New report reveals a stunning fact about the future of wind and solar power: ‘The more you install, the cheaper it gets’
Story by Leo Collis •
4h

Quote:

According to the RMI report, as more solar projects are completed — and costs are reduced due to increased production — the price per megawatt could reduce from $40 to $20.

I think that with the advent of different types of robotics/automation the price for hardware could decline even faster.

I think that P. Zeihan said that making solar panels requires some hand work, so in part that may explain why China dominates its productions: https://www.kloecknermetals.com/blog/wh … facturing/
Quote:

Global sourcing of solar panels
When it comes to manufacturing solar panels, sourcing the materials used is a major factor in the overall cost and efficiency of the product. Solar panel components can be sourced from various parts of the world, depending on the product’s quality and availability.
Solar panel manufacturers often rely on countries like China, India, and Malaysia for sourcing materials. Recent global supply chain fractures and weak links have created supply concerns. In 2021, China controlled 84% of the world’s solar panel manufacturing capacity while accounting for just 36.4% of solar panel demand. The U.S. and Europe, by contrast, make up more than ⅓ of demand for solar panels but less than 6% of its capacity. When supply chains between China and the U.S. snarl, break, or weaken, U.S. manufacturers and suppliers face severe shortages.

https://www.pvknowhow.com/costs-of-sola … %20located.
Quote:

Labor
Solar module manufacturers typically need to hire a variety of personnel to operate the machinery, inspect the solar modules, and perform other tasks. The costs of solar panel manufacturing labor can range from $15 to $30 per hour, depending on the type of work being performed and where the PV factory is located. For example, labor is generally cheaper in emerging market countries.
In addition to the cost of labor, solar module manufacturers also need to focus on the cost of benefits and other expenses associated with hiring personnel. These costs can range from $3 to $10 per hour, depending on the type of benefits offered.

I think I see how this could go, with humanoid robots and more automation. Everyone that can do them will. China and North America.

Peter Zeihan indicates that blue collar workers / Labor Unions are going to get an upper hand now, no choice. But if they are thinking rationally, they will understand that reshoring or shoring panel manufacturing to North America, then provides blue collar jobs and other jobs that would not otherwise exist here.

For any Doomsters here, I am not trying to wreck your day. I just approach this in the "Glass Half Full Mode".

Perhaps we will not be able to maintain a high standard of living without Carbon and Nuclear expansions. Well, then that is how it will be.

But if you get a little in the glass a thirsty person may prefer that to having none.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-21 08:53:53)

Void · 2023-12-21 13:01:03

I am very interested in this: https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topst … 008d&ei=27
Quote:

South China Morning Post
How Chinese scientists are extracting uranium from seawater faster than ever

Faster.....But economical? Maybe economics would be different on Mars.

By tapping aquifers, or melting ice covered seas at the poles, it may be that there would be enough salts with Uranium for this process.

So, I have always felt that we could tap solar energy to melt seas at the poles of Mars. But if you can get Uranium at an economy, relative to other options for Mars, this then becomes even more attractive.

The North Cap is low so it would possibly melt into a singular sea, or multiple lakes and seas with permafrost partitions.

The South pole is at an elevation and might be made to flow into various depressions in a general direction towards the equator.

I have no problem with the idea of aqueducts on mars, and even watercraft that can travel though them.

For a bulk of shelter, you may make tunnels and vaults under the sea/lake beds.

By pushing Oxygen, Martian Atmosphere, and Acetate into the seas, you may create an ecosystem. That would likely leak greenhouse gasses like Methane into the atmosphere.

This video may seem unrelated but is interesting in its contentment are mapping of water ice underground that is near the equator of Mars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up6x6tv3DlQ
Quote:

Major Mars Updates (Dec, 2023): Green Glow, Strange Polygonal Structures, Ice Map and More!
Anton Petrov
1.22M subscribers

Here is a relatively recent NASA Ice Map: https://www.nasa.gov/solar-system/plane … s-new-map/

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasa-is-l … is-new-map

So, anyway maybe solar and nuclear seas to be made on Mars.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-21 13:36:16)

Void · 2023-12-24 12:39:49

This is optimistic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AypUDutNK54

But, I am willing to have a look.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-24 12:40:36)

Void · 2023-12-25 08:46:51

In the previous post some encouraging and maybe optimistic presentations.

But I don't agree that solar without seasonal storage will become the one and only thing.

Why would Iceland give up geothermal and go to solar alone for instance?

Australia, however probably should do solar to the max.

Climate situations and geopolitical situations are likely to create spots for many different types of energy methods, I think.

I think that we are perhaps heading towards distributed energy sources which will change the world. Obviously, the USA has done it temporarily with Shale, and later on the M.E. will eventually run out of its Hydrocarbons.

In the future some nations such as the USA may have an interest in Nuclear Fission, to burn up much of the nuclear waste if for no other reason.

Fusion will likely appear or before that Calliban's hybrid notion Fission/Fusion. It may or may not be economically competitive on Earth but may be more competitive on other worlds. In a similar fashion space based solar may exist for some places and not so much for others.

Just a little more success in Geothermal it may be of importance in some places as well.

Drilled geothermal batteries, may have value, and Carbon Block thermal batteries may be of value simply to get Carbon from the Air or Sea, and maybe to make coal mining economic as well.

Time will tell.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-25 08:58:09)

Void · 2023-12-25 13:13:28

I had my Christmas get together already so I am bored.

And I will so do this.....

Some time back it occurred to me that if you had non-permeable plastic in the desert, you might be able to hold water in cisterns covered by it.

And they the University community went ballistic about plastic in the environment. Probably just coincidence but very annoying even so. Plastic of course will be damaged by a desert environment, things, like UV light. So, it was not a great idea.

But this is now emerging: https://thehill.com/changing-america/su … lectricity.

Solar panel covered water: (Image Quote): ca_solarcanal_021022solaraquagrid.jpg?w=1024

https://electrek.co/2023/11/21/indian-c … ar-canals/

You would want the solar panels to be tight enough to block most daytime light, but open enough to allow coold desert air to flow below the solar panels. and above the plastic film.

https://ozzyman.com/why-covering-canals … ower-move/
Image Quote:

It occurs to me that if you put a poly film under the solar panels and over the water, you might cut the evaporation and still have nighttime cooling and the production of water condensation that may be of value even if the water in the canal is of poor quality.

As the water surface would shed heat and moisture at night, that moisture should tend to condense on the underside of the plastic film, while the dry desert night air will take the heat away, but not moisture.

Depending on the character of the plastic film bubble the water condensate should flow across the surface to tbe collected at the edges.

Many of the dry places that have strong solar energy potential have a lack of water. This may fix that. Even a water source like the Great Salt Lake, may be suitable inside of the canals.

And then we are developing chemical agriculture now, so you could try to implement some version of that in the canals.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-37891-1
Quote:

The microbial food revolution
Alicia E. Graham & Rodrigo Ledesma-Amaro

The Merchants of Doom and Accelerationists may try to get in the way of such things though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism
Quote:

Accelerationism is a range of revolutionary and reactionary ideas in left-wing and right-wing ideologies that call for the drastic intensification of capitalist growth, technological change, infrastructure sabotage and other processes of social change to destabilize existing systems and create radical social transformations, otherwise referred to as "acceleration".[1][2][3][4] It has been regarded as an ideological spectrum divided into mutually contradictory left-wing and right-wing variants, both of which support the indefinite intensification of capitalism and its structures as well as the conditions for a technological singularity, a hypothetical point in time where technological growth becomes uncontrollable and irreversible.[5][6][7]

The above does seem confusing as I think that a condition of abundance could promote individuality, and both the Left and Right, want to secure positions of authority over the masses, in my opinion.

I believe they are not happy until they can see evidence that they are above all the others in power and privilege.

And eventually when they start thinking of themselves as gods, they think it is a good time to slaughter the inferior members of the human race so that they can get their "Supermen".

Things going well such as sometimes in the USA and other places, gets in the way of their career options, so they don't like it, I think.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-25 13:47:59)

Void · 2023-12-25 14:15:42

I think I have a partial understanding of a post from Terraformer and want to use it here: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 09#p217609
Quote:

Terraformer
Member
From: Ceres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,765
Email Website
Re. compressed/liquid air energy storage, the latent heat of fusion in water might be usable to provide most of the heat? Yes the exhaust will be at 0c, but that's not all that bad... and the process is simple to reverse even with lukewarm heat. Which could be from the compression, or from a simple flat plate collector. It's a very simple heat storage system that won't need much insulation around it smile
If the heat for expansion is free, how does that change the roudtrip efficiency?
"I'm gonna die surrounded by the biggest idiots in the galaxy." - If this forum was a Mars Colony

I am looking at the water in the canal, and the distillation process I mentioned in the prior post.

Lets suppose that during the day when you were generating liquid air or even compressed air you dumped the heat into the bottom of the canal.

The previous night you might have cooled the bottom water to 39 degF. by expanding liquid air or compressed air to run a turbine at night.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=convert+f … c1f785ba5a

39 degF = 3.88888889 degC. This is the heaviest fresh water normally in a pond/lake/canal, so will stay at the bottom even if the surface water might be 90 degF. (32.2222222 degC).

So, during the day you could warm all the water in the canal top to bottom to 90 degF, and during the night cool all the bottom water to 39 degF with your "Air" energy storage process.

I actually won't promise that 90 degF will be in the surface water all the time, but if it were, then you could expect condensation on the underside of the plastic in most weather conditions except the heat of the midday (Often? Maybe?)

As for the heat of the sunshine hitting the solar panels, quite a lot of it will go to air cooling, convection and the winds of daytime. As for the electricity, other than to make chemicals to do agriculture in the canal and run the air process, it would be consumed in lights and motors in homes and factories perhaps.

Yes, I think it is not all thought though, but of course at night if you are heating a house using a heat pump, you may help to cool the bottom waters of the canal by extracting heat. During the day indeed you might push heat into the bottom waters.

Factories near the canal? Maybe similar.

Deserts tend to be mid latitude, so may have seasonal temperature and solar energy balances. So, actually the canal bottoms of solid materials may actually store some relative cool from the winter into summer and also heat from the summer into the winter.

Done

Of course, I am interested in something like this for Mars, with some changes.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-25 14:40:53)

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