The Dollar as Old Maid - Borrow and spend is unsustainable

Grypd · 2005-02-27 18:48:14

Every administration since the Civil War has been a borrow and spend administration. You know if you don't like Bush because you are against the war just say that. Spin, spin, spin.

I was not for the War, I have allways had my doubts about its claimed WMD etc. But it does not matter now, we are in it so we have to finish it.

What was being said in this forum though was the USA is fighting an expensive war and is also reducing taxes! There is only so much money in a pot and just where are the funds coming from to do both. You have to pay for it sometime and a country that gets into a financial mess has a tendency to make the world sick. And im not convinced that the USA is not in a real financial mess.

Dook · 2005-02-27 19:38:22

Martian: My quote was referring to BWhite since he's the one who is posting the spin.

President Bush said he was going to cut taxes before he was elected the first time, before 9/11, before the war in Iraq. He's only following through on his promise.

War criminal? How so? You have some proof other than links to Larouche web sites? Larouche hasn't been correct about anything so far so why should I or anyone bother to listen to him now?

Grypd: Yes the war is expensive and cutting taxes when the deficit is so high and social security needs help is not the thing to do. But some of the blame goes to American's themselves. Would any candidate for public office get elected if they were to say they were going to raise taxes? Even 4%? No way. For the most part Americans are a credit society, we max out our credit cards as if we don't really have to pay for it all. All of this governmental debt will simply be passed on to our children, and their children, and theirs.

Martian Republic · 2005-02-27 20:34:25

>>>President Bush said he was going to cut taxes before he was elected the first time, before 9/11, before the war in Iraq. He's only following through on his promise. <<<

He is no longer in a position to cut taxes when he has to spend over 300 hundred billion dollars for the Iraq war. Beside this tax cut was not for the poor, but for the rich man. For the middle class, they got a tax deferment. In other words they got the next years tax return one year earlier, but they didn't get a tax cut. But, the tax cut for the rich man came from raiding Social Security of about four trillion dollars and giving that to the rich man. The George Bush intend to default on the Government bonds that were put in place of the raided Social Security funds. That the way this George Bush Social Security scam is suppose to play itself out. If you don’t believe that, then check the web site that I gave you and if you don’t like those web sites, then do a Google Search of your own and find a few web site that you like or that you trust and get this information.

>>War criminal? How so? You have some proof other than links to Larouche web sites? Larouche hasn't been correct about anything so far so why should I or anyone bother to listen to him now?<<<

War criminal, that word on George Bush. For George Bush to qualify as a War Criminal he has to do one of the following things:

1. Do the same thing that Adolph Hitler did by invading other countries without cause. The way that Adolph Hitler invaded Poland and other countries in Europe. The Nuremberg trial was an American Idea to serve as a deterrent to any other country that might invade any other country without cause. George Bush's invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq meet that definition of a war criminal.

2. George Bush's invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq violate the US Constitution of sovereign nation state concept and is an impeachable offense.

3. George Bush's invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq violate International laws that the United States in principle claim to support. These agreement go back the Treaty of Westphallia that ended the thirty year war long before the United States even became a nation. We are also a signer of the UN Charter that should have kept us out of both Afghanistan and Iraq.

4. George Bush's invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq was a population war to kill people and so George Bush is a mass murders. This qualifies him as a war criminal.

5. George Bush's invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq was based on a false flag attack of 9/11 that he and people in his administration were in on. Dick Cheney in his bunker, was the one that shut Norad down so the 9/11 attack could happen. So they are guilty and co-conspirators to killing three thousand Americans and they should be tried for mass murder of three thousand Americans too.

6. George Bush's invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq was an illegal and immoral war that violate all decency and every principle that this nation stands for and it very nature is a criminal act. We had absolutely no justification for going into either of those war and what we did as a nation was also criminal too. We may have the power to invade other countries, but we don't have the right to invade other countries. Just because we are Americans, we don't have the right to murder people in other counties, just because we feel like it. We Americans murders as a people, have killed over 200 hundred thousand Iraqi’s in this illegal war and as a people we have the blood of those Iraqi’s on our hands.

If you support this President in his war against the Iraqi people and murder of over 200 hundred thousand so far, then you actively are supporting mass murder and you are just as guilty of committing genocide as George Bush is and that a fact.

Larry,

BWhite · 2005-02-27 21:54:48

Cutting taxes? Okay, that was the Bush platform but by how much? IIRC, it was the Goldilocks formula. He (and only he) knew how much of a cut was too much and how much was too little and how much was "just right" :;):

Personally, I would love to see a cut in the employee share of the FICA tax and an increase in the top tier income tax (1040) with a net reduction in overall taxation. This would funnel money to people who would spend it rather than invest it in euro demoninated mutual funds. :;):

In the abstract, lower taxes are good however rising interest rates from dollar devaluation offset the benefit of lower taxes. Deficits also cause (a) inflation & (b) higher interest rates.

Higher oil prices also offset the benefit of lower taxes. This is best solved by doing everything possible to leave behind the petroleum era ASAP.

Finally, I do believe that the bell curve of income and wealth distribution is a legitimate societal concern. Massively increasing concentration of wealth in the top 1/10th of 1% with stagnation or reduced wealth for the remaining 99.9% will - - IMHO - - be very bad for the long term societal health of our nation.

BWhite · 2005-02-27 21:57:17

Actually, I can agree to #2 and #4 with little objection:

I believe that we have to take these steps:
1) An independant review of every department's practices with a focus on improving efficiency and a 5% reduction in federal workers gained through attrition.
2) A 4% increase in income taxes plus a 5 cent federal increase applied to both alcohol and cigarettes. All of this must go toward balancing the budget and paying down the national debt.
3) An efficiency program instituted for the military. Unit commanders who return money to the general fund while still accomplishing their mission and maintain morale get better proficiency reports.
4) Cut the funding to most of the programs cited by the Citizens Against Governmental Waste.

#4? I am not sufficiently familiar with that group so I offer no opinion.

#1? Depends on who does the independent review. :;):

= = =

The war on terror, in Iraq, and the problem social security have put us in a position where we cannot trim spending at the moment but in the future we will because, we have to.

Iraq was an imprudent war the neo-cons asserted would be paid for with Iraqi oil revenues. Remember that?

Saddam being gone is a good thing. Had we given Sistani the keys to Iraq 16 months ago and by-passed Garner, Bremer, Chalabi and Allawi, Iraq would be a better place today.

But we also need to budget the actual costs of having done Iraqi regime change. That is a legitmate reason to re-visit the tax cut pledge.

= = =

Social security demolition is NOT necessary. Medicare is a far more pressing problem. To say we must do radical surgery on social security NOW is like saying we need a new kitchen at a time when the roof is leaking.

Social security reform (GOP style) is an oxymoron. FDR hatred is the real agenda and my advice to Democrats is to firmly and consistently say Social Security just ain't broke. Nothing to discuss, subject closed.

If the GOP passes Social Security demolition without Democratic votes HAMMER every GOP Representative and Senator up for election in 2006.

= = =

As for spin, after Jeff Gannon (major league spin) nothing I write gets beyond the 6 year old tee ball league.

Edited By BWhite on 1109563668

Cobra Commander · 2005-02-28 06:22:55

So much bovine feces, so little time to clean it up. I'll make a dent in it and leave the rest for the next generation. :;):

Social security demolition is NOT necessary. Medicare is a far more pressing problem. To say we must do radical surgery on social security NOW is like saying we need a new kitchen at a time when the roof is leaking.

You have fallen prey to one of the myths of our time. Here's the deal: Spending on Medicare is rising faster than SocSec. Future obligations over future receipts is also higher with Medicare than SocSec. Obviously Medicare is the bigger problem right?

No. What matters is not what's worse but the total amount of money needed to fix it. Total SocSec costs are still far in excess of Medicare. To follow your analogy, what you suggest is fixing the roof and worrying about the crumbling foundation later.

We need to fix both SocSec and Medicare, to use the medicare problem as a reason to ignore SocSec is a willful act of self delusion, ignoring looming problems out of spite.

Social security reform (GOP style) is an oxymoron. FDR hatred is the real agenda and my advice to Democrats is to firmly and consistently say Social Security just ain't broke. Nothing to discuss, subject closed.

Nor long ago Democrats were frothing at the need to reform SocSec. But now Dubya is saying it. Go ahead and stick your head in the sand, pretend everything is fine now. If you're willing to be honest with yourself and can add, SocSec is clearly in trouble but hey, it wouldn't be the first time the Left has covered its ears and eyes in the face of obvious truths. "I'm not listening, it just ain't broke, nothing to discuss."

BWhite · 2005-02-28 07:30:14

Since the Bush social security "proposal" is nothing more than political manuevering (and since he as zero track record of negotiation or good faith compromise) we have stalemate.

Deadlock. So be it.

SpaceNut · 2021-12-16 22:25:15

Bump older inflation topic.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-10-11 07:56:26

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Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-02-20 15:31:01

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Debt Ceiling 2023: US Will Be Unable to Pay Bills Sometime Between July & September, New Data Shows
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The U.S. government will exhaust its “extraordinary measures” if the debt ceiling isn’t raised

The U.S. dollar enjoys the world reserve currency status due to numerous factors. Legal and investor security, an open and transparent market, as well as independent institutions with checks and balances that limit political power and strengthen the country’s currency in relative terms. No, a country does not have a world reserve currency due to military power. No one accepted the kopek when the Soviet Union ruled half the world. For a fiat currency to be a world reserve it needs to be widely accepted as unit of measure, method of payment and reserve of value.
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Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-08-15 06:53:51

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Calliban · 2023-08-16 06:55:10

Debt rating agency Fitch is considering downgrading China's credit rating as debt/GDP surges past 300%.
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/fitch … my-falters

And that debt-GDP ratio assumes that we take official GDP numbers at face value. Chinese GDP is probably only 2/3rds what they say it is. This would put Chinese debt at catastophic levels.

The entire developed world is going to hell now thanks to the demographic unwinding resulting from industrialisation. This put the majority of people in cities where children were more expensive and there was less space to support large families. It is also the result of big state policies which nanny people into relinquishing responsibility for their own lives. The result is 'Kidults' who think they are endlessly entitled and never grow up enough to take responsibility for a family. China, Japan and Italy are leading the demographic decline. But all developed countries are headed the same way. This will lead to economic ruin and collapse for most of the world. The countries that are still growing are the middle east and Africa. These are sending migrants across the world. Welcome to Planet of the Apes.

Calliban · 2023-11-01 01:31:41

The souffle economy.
https://surplusenergyeconomics.wordpres … e-economy/

Since 2008, all economic growth has been fake, an artifact of credit expansion and money printing. If governments attempted to balance budgets now and if interest rates actually rose above inflation, the economy would shrink every year. Capitalism died in 2008.

kbd512 · 2023-11-01 10:06:01

Calliban,

Economic expansion died as a result of population expansion in developed countries slowing, stopping, and now reversing. From here on out, population reduction is baked into the as-is demographics. Whether we were all living under communism or capitalism, population dictates total energy usage and the complexity of the "super organism" as Nate Hagens calls it. The printing of money was done under the belief, of bankers and economists, that the problem was merely a matter of liquidity in the markets. This practice was carried out in both capitalist America and communist China. In both cases, it utterly failed to stimulate organic economic growth, in much the same way that the "green energy" silliness utterly failed to increase the availability of energy for any other economic purpose.

The real failure was in the education and understanding of the economists and bankers. Economics In One Lesson, by Henry Hazlitt, defines the nature of the problem with their thinking- the broken window fallacy. It doesn't matter whether your economy is based upon capitalism or socialism, the net effect is the same. You cannot stimulate real economic growth by breaking all the windows in the city. All you can do by intentionally breaking windows is to devote more labor / capital / resources to fixing broken windows while simultaneously taking it away from other useful economic purposes, such as building new roads or bridges or new buildings with windows of their own.

If the problem with the markets is lack of liquidity, then the solution is to print more money, right? No. The solution is more productive labor or new products and services that people actually want to spend their money on. New products and services that people want to buy is real and typically sustainable economic growth in a nutshell. Government never had to force the adoption of the gasoline powered car, because it was self-evident that it was an improvement over what was available (horses or electric cars). There was no government edict banning the sales of new horses to people who wanted horses.

The communist Chinese built entire cities that nobody could actually live in, rather than upgrading all their existing buildings. The net effect is that the labor, money, and building materials have been squandered, while nobody's standard of living improved, regardless of where they live. In America, we typically do upgrade in place. It's a much slower and more expensive process than new construction or living with the existing infrastructure, but when you're done, the net effect is that everybody benefits from the improved infrastructure, even the people who oppose it.

Ironically, this is a sign of how real protection of private property rights limits the effects of squandering, rather than how much more efficient and effective capitalism is than communism. Both the efficiency and effectiveness of capitalism is on full display when it comes to computing technology, which goes far beyond the mental and physical capacity of communists without capitalist assistance. We've tried for decades to create an organic semiconductor industry in China to serve the needs of their people. No matter how much money and technology we throw at them, they can only make the simplest of semiconductors with our equipment. The business and economic world isn't driven by Chinese semiconductor design and manufacturing. The Chinese assemble iPhones and computers. They don't design or even make their own CPU designs. None of that appears to happen in China without concerted and continuous outside support. On paper, they should wildly surpass western capitalist computing technology. None of what they teach or practice values and rewards creativity, though. If it can't become a tool or weapon of the state to coerce their own people into worship of the state, they're not really interested.

Despite that fact, as others have poined out, it's theoretically possible for communism to be more efficient than capitalism. In the absence of private property rights, it's possible for progress to be rapid and result in a better outcome. Unfortunately, that possibility has never once been actualized. There's no great social and technological achievement of communism to point to, apart from mass murder and mass starvation. In reality, under communism the dumbest and most anti-social people imaginable are the ones who get to make all the profoundly important decisions, which actively encourages mediocrity and actively discourages excellence, so you inevitably get the worst of all possible outcomes. Look at the ivory tower educational system in America which actively encourages mediocrity in the name of inclusivity. They're fundamentally stupid and/or actively evil people with painfully dumb ideas about the way the world has never worked, and never will work outside of their heads.

Is upgrade in place (driven by private property rights) more painful and more costly? Yes. Does it at least achieve the aim of a better result? Yes. Have we discovered a workable alternative, anywhere humans are involved, which actually produces the desired result? No. What is the wisdom to be learned from our experimentation? Do what actually works. That's real wisdom. It's simple, but not easy.

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#26 2005-02-27 18:48:14

Re: The Dollar as Old Maid - Borrow and spend is unsustainable

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