Duck n Cover - Water but no jubilee and still hiding

rhw007 · 2002-06-08 20:49:39

Duck n Cover

Well it seems NASA/JPL is playing Duck n Cover once more. Rather than FACE any questions directly by LIVE TV cameras and tape recorders and LIVE reporters, they ducked a press conference and went scurrying for cover after 'leaking' its biggest turnaround in 26 years so far to date anyway, LOTS n LOTS n LOTS of water on Mars, NOW! Not a gazillion years in the past, but laying there just a yard down into that previous 'cold, dead, dry, dusty dune of place' that they had been touting to the public for this past quarter century. They have put the CO2 fluid proponents off the stage for good with this one, yet they refuse to make a big deal of it, politically. Which is surprising since this whole Mars 'Investigation' is as dual an exercise in the science of politics as it is about the politics of science. FOLLOW THE WATER was the NASA/JPL mantra repeated and repeated and restated that water would be needed for LIFE and for PEOPLED missions. Yet now with finding literally a planet-wide ocean of the stuff, they fail to toot the horns and throw their hats into the air with jubilee?! This is most definitively NOT the NASA of the Apollo era, or even Pathfinder so recent where more emotion was forthcoming than had been seen in a long time, and has not been really seen since. I mean when the Principle Investigators need to be 'dragged kicking and screaming':

http://www.space.com/science....22.html

to see things that others already knew is a far cry from a scientific enthusiasm for new data, no matter how it may shatter precious preconceived notions of false perceptions.

Again, many like Effrain Palmero and Jill England knew it was SEEPING out ALL over the place:

http://home.attbi.com/~palermo63/Mars_A … mages.html

along with images of LIQUID water ON the surface:

http://home.thirdage.com/Teaching/rhw007/M0901354.gif

the real 'news' actually is that NASA/JPL, while releasing their OWN leak, decided to cancel their press conference BECAUSE of that leak. Which is surprising since they had previously said there was OCEANS of water on Mars TWO ( 2 ) YEARS AGO ! ! !

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast29jun_1m.htm

And in the 'new leaks',

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/rapidpdf/1073722v1.pdf

http://grs.lpl.arizona.edu/results/presscon2/

it seems that the HIGHEST temperature possible (according to Odyssey's instruments???) ON THE SURFACE of Mars remains STILL locked in at 0 deg C, or 32 deg F, or, to put it more importantly, the point at which (pure) WATER ICE becomes a liquid here on Earth. Why is that?, when Pathfinder recorded a balmy 70 deg F on the surface?

In additional observations about this 'science by press release' and the politicizing of the story, I would have thought that these Mars NASA/JPL scientists and Principle Investigators would be just a wee wee LITTLE bit more inclined to step out of those big ol' boxes their intellects have been stuck into for more than 25 years. Apparently I was wrong, they are JUST AS ENTRENCHED AS EVER in their little preconceived notion of what is up there on Mars:

http://www.space.com/science....30.html

"They could always boil the water and not have to worry about bacteria. My guess is, based on everything we know at Mars is that water would be pretty pure, with no organic matter in it at all," Boynton said.

Maybe Dr.William Boynton, principal investigator for Odyssey's gamma ray spectrometer suite at the University of Arizona, Tucson should do some more investigations into such things as GIANT LIFE FORMS!!!

http://www.curiousnotions.com/mars/index.html

Or even to take another look at Dr. Levin's work now that it is being confirmed as being real AND valid AND positive scientific results?

http://www.biospherics.com/mars/

http://space.com/science....28.html

At least Dr. Gil Levin has his OWN intellectual strings still in his own control:
"I am surprised that no mention was made of putting the Pathfinder data and the Odyssey data together," Levin told SPACE.com. "Pathfinder found the surface temperature of Mars to exceed freezing, and Odyssey reports near-surface ice over wide regions including the Pathfinder landing area, and the Viking landing areas," he said.

And it is sad that this mentality of NOT connecting the dots and seeing LIFE is not located in just ONE of these great PHD's currently involved with Odyssey:
"Bruce Jakosky, an astrobiologist at the University of Colorado in Boulder, said the Odyssey data points to a climate story, rather than a biology tale. "

And despite Pathfinder reporting 70 deg F surface temperatures this feller STILL believes this:

"At present, there is no way to warm this water ice enough to get even trace amounts of liquid. The ice is in equilibrium with atmospheric vapor," he said.

One wonders just when oh when oh when will the 'blinder' on that Lady of Justice fall and she can once more 'see the light of truth'?

And if you expect this news to SPUR a new push for a humaned mission soon?:

"Odyssey's revelations, Garvin said, will not alter NASA's step-by-step plan to explore Mars. " Which means a possible sample return by 2015, and NOT a humaned mission until sometime AFTER 2020.

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/future/2005-plus.html

Yet we once had such grand plans:

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/taskgrp.html

How did we waste our history?

"Mars will not let us down," Garvin concluded. No, but NASA/JPL have once again done EXACTLY that despite confirming with detailed maps what they ALREADY had announced back on March 1, 2002; that they had said two years ago in June 2000; that there was LOTS of water on Mars just below the surface. This news conference was hopefully to be something MORE than just a more detailed map of the previously disclosed gross distributions.

New 'news' NASA's Oceans on Mars:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cydonia/message/16944

Not only did NASA let us down by pulling a no-show, they have yet to follow through on past promises with MGS MOC and Odyssey data releases. To 'just get the data out there'.

Promise to image Cydonia and release images:

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/od … 20121.html

And the MGS MOC promise NEVER fulfilled:

http://mpfwww.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/cydonia.html

and which NASA admitted in a FOIA to me.

Also it has been awhile since the April 2002 Cydonia Face and D&M Pyramid image has since already been acquired by the THEMIS, except that not ALL of the information acquired at the time ( when was the image acquired ? we'd like to know NASA ) was released to the media and the taxpaying public, nor to those of us who are truly interested in this enigmatic area.

Here is a PRIME image of the famous D & M pyramid and the Cydonia Face and in further study and homework we learn that a full five color visible image AND a 9 spectrum infrared image is available ON THE SENSORS at the SAME TIME as this Odyssey space craft is flying over the most interesting landscape on the planet, in near-perfect lighting, and ONLY ONE (1) , repeat ONLY 1 ( ONE ) sensor bank was 'commanded' to be 'read' by the onboard computer???

C'MON ! ! !

I will only 'presume' that IF, and HOPEFULLY, ALL the bands were commanded to be read, AS IS POSSIBLE, for this image; that the withholding of this information is 'political'. If that is the case, then we should do all we can do to peacefully change this political conundrum. Because if ALL the bands were NOT commanded to be read, then that is one wasted wonderful opportunity to really show us all out here the FULL capabilities of this instrument in a landscape that has attracted more of humanity's attention on Mars than any other. THAT would be a shame. Sort of like letting George gut the White House for an indoor baseball field. Or like watching the hearings now concerning the failures of our intelligence agencies to handle the data they acquire in a manner that is accurate or timely. NASA seems to be having the same problems concerning ANYTHING about Cydonia on Mars! The very FIRST Cydonia Face image they had with the MGS MOC was distorted so bad that it has earned the nickname the 'Catbox' image. And the latest image has only ONE band of sensors operating???

People say I and others calling for the IMMEDIATE release of the raw data from these spacecraft should just wait. We've BEEN waiting. When data is finally released, in the last Mars Face MOC case it was THIRTEEN months when they are only 'allowed' SIX months, not only is it late, it is actually been distorted when presented to the public.

http://www.vgl.org/webfiles/mars/stereo … esults.htm

Only the raw data remains pure. And THAT continues to be withheld beyond allowable limits, and ALL that raw data is possibly NOT being acquired by the THEMIS team! Should we wait and wait to find out that the THEMIS team 'blew it' like our intelligence agencies did? That the NASA bureaucracy is just as 'overwhelmed' to undertake it's task properly as is other branches of our government? Our intelligence agencies are beginning to ask for the American Public's help in defending the homeland, maybe its time NASA started asking for the help of the image analysts out here with processing all that raw data they are sitting on. We can at least do better than this very FIRST presentation of the Cydonia Face to the public back in 1998 after a quarter century of a lack of data, and the FIRST try out, located on the left in the image below,

http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/facecomp.jpg

was a complete 'Catbox' effort. Sadly, some of the efforts regarding Cydonia haven't gotten much better by them. If they aren't going to do their jobs and do HONEST science with this raw data, at least they should let us out here do it for them. Or at least also live up their already made promises, and to only hang on to that raw data they want for 'egotistical publishing' purposes for the 6 months they are allowed, instead of DOCUMENTED 13 months. That is just plain dishonesty out in the open where the Principle Investigator knows there will be no penalty for flaunting the rules in our CYDONIAN FACES. So why should the University of Arizona act any different? They haven't yet. There STILL has been NO pre-announcement of imaging of Cydonia, and NO releasing of the raw data. Our government tax dollars hard at work, but not for us.
THAT is the sad BRUTAL TRUTH !

Let's taunt a Billionaire to Mars ! ! ! Beats Begging.

Think out there act down here... NOW ! ! ! Have YOU ??

Give a High School kid a reason to care...a spacewalk.
Teach 'em a lesson in teamwork.
Teach 'em a lesson in humanity.

Bob... ;-{)

http://home.thirdage.com/Teaching/rhw007/index.html

http://members.tripod.com/rhw007/

http://communities.msn.com/JPLMarsExploration

Josh Cryer · 2002-06-09 00:40:06

Oh my fucking god!

I am offically annoyed! I cannot believe I am about to spend time actually responding to this nonsense! But I'm too pissed to not!

This post, and this mentality, is science going out the door. Proof that people use science religiously- in fact, I would not call this science at all.

Well it seems NASA/JPL is playing Duck n Cover once more. Rather than FACE any questions directly by LIVE TV cameras and tape recorders and LIVE reporters, they ducked a press conference and went scurrying for cover after 'leaking' its biggest turnaround in 26 years so far to date anyway, LOTS n LOTS n LOTS of water on Mars, NOW! [...] They have put the CO2 fluid proponents off the stage for good with this one, yet they refuse to make a big deal of it, politically. [...] now with finding literally a planet-wide ocean of the stuff, they fail to toot the horns and throw their hats into the air with jubilee?! This is most definitively NOT the NASA of the Apollo era, or even Pathfinder so recent where more emotion was forthcoming than had been seen in a long time, and has not been really seen since.

Duck and cover isn't what this is. Yes, they're keeping a low profile, but there are some logical reasons behind it. The whole, ?there's water on Mars? thing has been done before. Scientists expected the results we've seen (although where the water was was unknown, we knew it was there, or was once there). The reaction from the leak was less than extraordinairy. ?Water? on Mars isn't very interesting.

The CO2 proponents were, they even admitted themselves, less than confident in their own theories. It was just a ?side? to the argument as to what caused the ?wet? formations. Very few scientists actually took that is the explaination for it, they just kept it up in the air because we won't- we can't know until we actually go there in person.

Personally, I don't see why NASA has to dance in jubilee over something that they've known about all this time... you know how the press conference would have went?

?There is a lot of water on Mars. All the water we suspected was there, looks like it's actually there. Any questions??

?Yes, is there life on Mars??

?We don't know, but the odds got better.?

?Do you think there is life on Mars??

?I don't know, but I figure since there really is a lot of water there, the odds have increased, so maybe.?

?Since there's water there, do you think the odds of life being on Mars are higher??

?Sure, life on Mars is more likely now.?

You get the picture.

By the end of the day, it would be a discussion about life on Mars, not water! Can you blame them for not wanting to have the #### conference?

I am surprised that no mention was made of putting the Pathfinder data and the Odyssey data together," Levin told SPACE.com. "Pathfinder found the surface temperature of Mars to exceed freezing, and Odyssey reports near-surface ice over wide regions including the Pathfinder landing area, and the Viking landing areas

He's deriving that from non-scientific, public relations data? What a very wise thing to do!

If you don't notice, I'm being quite sarcastic. Even if the surface temperature exceeds freezing, a foot underground is going to still be quite cold. This is because the atmosphere is thin (low convection heat) and the ground has an insulating effect. Odyssey shows that water ice starts existing deeper and deeper towards the equator, which backs up these facts.

What kind of science is science that makes conclusions with incomplete data? It's fucking bullshit.

Um, wasting resources on disproving the psychos isn't what my tax payer money goes for. There are many reasons why Cydonia isn't in the allocated imaging sweeps. But the obvious one is that the chance doesn't come around all that often. And when it does, they, THE CIVILIAN MISSION SCIENTISTS, don't feel it's necessary to allocate every bit of MGS's memory on the slight chance that they'll actually get something (it should be noted that there is a chance that MGS can miss its target completely).

Why in the #### would NASA give in to you? You're not a #### scientist, that's for sure. You just want your way. If they gave it to you, effectivelly shutting down any other probe functions, would they really get you off their back? I doubt it! They'd just then prove that they're malleable, and you conspiracy theorists would not let up.

I remember when Nancy, of ZetaTalk, fucked with amateur astronmers. They humored her at first, but soon regretted it, as their observations returned nothing, and it only led to more urging by more conspiracy theorists. Conspiracy theorists always see what they want to see. That's why, when clearer images of the face came up, conspiracy theorists were so quick to judge NASA for taking so long to get them published in the PDS (which, I might add, was just being built around that time).

If they aren't going to do their jobs and do HONEST science with this raw data, at least they should let us out here do it for them.

You don't know what honest science is, frankly. Honest science isn't about shortsighted conclusions, it's about gaining knowledge. See, honest scientists go searching for knowledge, you are merely searching for something that looks like a preconceived bit of reality. In some instances, distorting it so that it is what you want it to be. There is nothing you have shown that isn't totally subjective.

You, sir, are a distorter of truth.

Look, if you're willing to pay them to investigate everything that comes out of Odyssey, go for it. Double their staff, get it done twice as quick. But the cold hard fact remains. They are in control, and they deserve first discovery rights on anything they find. Can you imagine how the MOC guys felt when the liquid water was discovered? Granted, they were elated that the scientific community went over images they themselves couldn't (there were hundreds of thousands), but they were still probably annoyed they missed something like that.

GOM · 2002-06-10 12:02:26

Whoa....

Better stick with the decaf.

GOM · 2002-06-10 12:09:08

Duck n Cover

Here is a PRIME image of the famous D & M pyramid and the Cydonia Face and in further study and homework we learn that a full five color visible image AND a 9 spectrum infrared image is available ON THE SENSORS at the SAME TIME as this Odyssey space craft is flying over the most interesting landscape on the planet, in near-perfect lighting, and ONLY ONE (1) , repeat ONLY 1 ( ONE ) sensor bank was 'commanded' to be 'read' by the onboard computer???
C'MON ! ! !
I will only 'presume' that IF, and HOPEFULLY, ALL the bands were commanded to be read, AS IS POSSIBLE, for this image; that the withholding of this information is 'political'. If that is the case, then we should do all we can do to peacefully change this political conundrum. Because if ALL the bands were NOT commanded to be read, then that is one wasted wonderful opportunity to really show us all out here the FULL capabilities of this instrument in a landscape that has attracted more of humanity's attention on Mars than any other. THAT would be a shame. Sort of like letting George gut the White House for an indoor baseball field. Or like watching the hearings now concerning the failures of our intelligence agencies to handle the data they acquire in a manner that is accurate or timely. NASA seems to be having the same problems concerning ANYTHING about Cydonia on Mars! The very FIRST Cydonia Face image they had with the MGS MOC was distorted so bad that it has earned the nickname the 'Catbox' image. And the latest image has only ONE band of sensors operating???
People say I and others calling for the IMMEDIATE release of the raw data from these spacecraft should just wait. We've BEEN waiting. When data is finally released, in the last Mars Face MOC case it was THIRTEEN months when they are only 'allowed' SIX months, not only is it late, it is actually been distorted when presented to the public.
http://www.vgl.org/webfiles/mars/stereo … esults.htm
Only the raw data remains pure. And THAT continues to be withheld beyond allowable limits, and ALL that raw data is possibly NOT being acquired by the THEMIS team! Should we wait and wait to find out that the THEMIS team 'blew it' like our intelligence agencies did? That the NASA bureaucracy is just as 'overwhelmed' to undertake it's task properly as is other branches of our government? Our intelligence agencies are beginning to ask for the American Public's help in defending the homeland, maybe its time NASA started asking for the help of the image analysts out here with processing all that raw data they are sitting on. We can at least do better than this very FIRST presentation of the Cydonia Face to the public back in 1998 after a quarter century of a lack of data, and the FIRST try out, located on the left in the image below,
http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/facecomp.jpg
was a complete 'Catbox' effort. Sadly, some of the efforts regarding Cydonia haven't gotten much better by them. If they aren't going to do their jobs and do HONEST science with this raw data, at least they should let us out here do it for them. Or at least also live up their already made promises, and to only hang on to that raw data they want for 'egotistical publishing' purposes for the 6 months they are allowed, instead of DOCUMENTED 13 months. That is just plain dishonesty out in the open where the Principle Investigator knows there will be no penalty for flaunting the rules in our CYDONIAN FACES. So why should the University of Arizona act any different? They haven't yet. There STILL has been NO pre-announcement of imaging of Cydonia, and NO releasing of the raw data. Our government tax dollars hard at work, but not for us.

Amazing....

They must really be afraid of something.

Phobos · 2002-06-10 16:49:10

It would be nice though it the mainstream American media would give out at least a blurb about the discovery of water on Mars despite the all important news of some movie star's shoplifting escapades. I have yet to see the discovery mentioned on TV news, which of course, is hardly a source of news, but still, it does reach a lot of people and the discovery is definately a newsworthy item.

Byron · 2002-06-10 17:53:50

Actually, the discovery was mentioned on the CBS news on May 28th, right when the news was 'leaked' in a 30-second blurb. At least they showed a map of the southern hemisphere showing all the blue below -60 degrees latitude.

The real problem is not with the media, I'm afraid...it's the apathy and ignorance of the American public on anything that happens beyond their close-minded existence...I'm amazed at how many people don't even know that Mars is the 4th planet in our Solar System, let alone realize that it is the wonderfully dynamic planet we know it to be (read: Mars Fanatics....you know who you are! )

We need to get our schools to teach more science and appreciation of the physical universe around us, like we did in the late 50's and the 60's...perhaps if more people had a bit more knowledge about the Red Planet, there would be much more exposure in the media, government support of Mars exploration, etc, etc....

Shaun Barrett · 2002-06-10 20:44:42

I don't know where you people live, but here in Australia it's the same sorry tale.
There was a snippet about the Martian water-ice during a midday TV news program but it wasn't repeated that evening as far as I know. If it had been, it would have looked something like this:-
The evening news on TV is a half hour long. The first five minutes might show Israel/ Palestine/George W./War-on-Terror/India-Pakistan and such like. That's assuming a disgraced South African cricketer hasn't died in a light-plane crash or an Australian Rules footballer hasn't been found in bed with his best friend's wife! Then, the five minutes of world events would have to be further abbreviated while we delve breathlessly into these sportsmen's sordid private lives.
Then comes a ten minute period dealing with Australian news: The latest political scandal, deaths on the roads, and some more about those sportsmen's private lives!
After the commercial break, it's ten minutes of sports results, more commercials, two minutes of the weather (and how it might affect the sporting fixtures over the next 24 hours! ), and then, just as they're tidying up the papers on their desk and saying good night .... oh yes! "Scientists think they've found some water-ice on Mars, enhancing the possibility of life there." ... Smiles and chuckles as one of the newsreaders cracks a joke about a possible Martian entrant at the next Olympic figure-skating event!
It's pathetic!! So many people dismiss anything about Mars as just scientists playing with their toys. An excuse to dig out the "little green men from Mars" jokes .... you know ... anyone who talks seriously about space is "one of those Space nuts" ... good for a laugh.
These denigrators are completely secure in their cocoon of total ignorance about anything other than what's going on right here on Earth. And they laugh about it. The same kind of people must have laughed in Columbus's face and joked about him falling off the edge of the world. I can feel the frustration he must have felt!
Byron is right, of course. Education is the answer. But it's going to be a slow process while space in general, and Mars in particular, are treated as subjects for derision by so many woefully blinkered people.
???

Phobos · 2002-06-11 14:06:59

I can barely even stand watching TV news anymore. It's so predictable and dumbed down. It feels more like the National Enquirer than a true form of journalism. Anyways, I'm beginning to wonder if education can even do the job of instilling greater appreciation of science in people. I think one of the problems with science education in high school and below is that it focuses so much on just memorizing rote facts and occassionally doing calculations here and there. With the exception of one class, I never had an enjoyable science class in high school. Most students don't understand that true science is often a mixture of both technical competence and creativity, which is very similiar to the way an artist works. But most revere artists while they see scientists as just these hags with big pocket protectors. We need to destroy those stereotypes and make science class focus less on the boring rote crap and more on the thinking and creative aspects.

Palomar · 2002-06-12 13:45:20

Josh writes: "I remember when Nancy, of ZetaTalk, fucked with amateur astronmers. They humored her at first, but soon regretted it, as their observations returned nothing,"

*Who is Nancy and ZetaTalk? Can you refer me to a web link regarding this?

Josh: "and it only led to more urging by more conspiracy theorists. Conspiracy theorists always see what they want to see."

*Yup. And it's mostly useless speculation -- and a waste of time, IMO -- since they rarely can prove anything they're yapping about. I've interacted with two die-hard conspiracy theorists online, and have seen others interacting in various forums. The impression I got was that most of these people are clinical paranoids to some degree or other. Definitely *not* my type of people. :angry:

--Cindy

Palomar · 2002-06-12 13:58:34

Phobos: "I can barely even stand watching TV news anymore. It's so predictable and dumbed down. It feels more like the National Enquirer than a true form of journalism."

*Agreed, totally. Besides, there's always the biases and what they don't want you to hear -- or are unable to ascertain for themselves. Even the CBS, NBC, and ABC nightly news are watered down; mostly NBC now caters to the elderly and aging baby-boomer crowd with many news segments devoted to health and medical issues for senior citizens. You'd think they were broadcasting from a nursing home. Maybe NBC, CBS, and ABC have rationalized their change from the rather intense, old-fashioned hardline journalist techniques I recall as a kid growing up in the 1970s because of these 24-hour cable network news broadcasts (which, yes, are themselves looking more and more like tabloid "news" segments), but that's no reason if so.

Phobos: "Anyways, I'm beginning to wonder if education can even do the job of instilling greater appreciation of science in people."

*Carl Sagan discusses this in _Candle in the Dark_.

Phobos: "Most students don't understand that true science is often a mixture of both technical competence and creativity, which is very similiar to the way an artist works. But most revere artists while they see scientists as just these hags with big pocket protectors. We need to destroy those stereotypes and make science class focus less on the boring rote crap and more on the thinking and creative aspects."

*Excellent points! Unfortunately, we live in a society where a jock is considered Campus King while the kids interested in science, philosophy, etc., are considered "geeks" and "nerds."

--Cindy

Josh Cryer · 2002-06-12 14:19:51

I agree with what everyone has said here. I've said before that scientific interest here in America is at a 10 year low. You can't really blame NASA for not wanting to do their conference. There are a lot of factors, but I figure the biggest one is that it simply wouldn't have been about water. No one cares about it.

Americans are in a lull of conservative, anti-progressive thinking.

Who is Nancy and ZetaTalk? Can you refer me to a web link regarding this?

I'm not sure you really want to know, Cindy.

Nancy is someone who claims to be in psychic communication with The Greys (aliens), who are warning about the end of the world in 2003 by the passing of Planet X. She has been, for years, asking amateur and professional astronomers alike to point their scopes into the sky to where she says Planet X is.

www.zetatalk.com

Palomar · 2002-06-12 14:30:56

Me: Who is Nancy and ZetaTalk? Can you refer me to a web link regarding this?

Josh: I'm not sure you really want to know, Cindy.

Nancy is someone who claims to be in psychic communication with The Greys (aliens), who are warning about the end of the world in 2003 by the passing of Planet X. She has been, for years, asking amateur and professional astronomers alike to point their scopes into the sky to where she says Planet X is.

*Thanks for the link, Josh. I got a chuckle reading your comments about her, and I'm sure I'll get more at the web site. I remember some woman from Arizona, I think, who was supposedly having "visions" in the late 1980s or early 1990s about a great catastrophic event on earth that would result in the flooding of 1/3 of the North American continent in 1998; she called it "I Am America," and claimed an extraterrestrial intelligence related this information to her. She and her husband invested a lot of money in printing and distributing pamphlets and posters about it. Well, 2002 is here, and there's no ocean-front property in Arizona.

I haven't seen any of those "I Am America" posters and pamphlets around for some time now...hopefully they can be recycled.

Sad thing is, there's more kooks where these two gals came from.

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2002-06-13 02:37:08

Cindy's 110% right when she says there are "more kooks where these two gals came from"!
That's why those of us serious about space exploration and Mars colonisation get packaged up with all the nutcases and tarred with the same brush!!!
And the average shmuck in the street doesn't know his a** from his elbow and thinks we're all just escapees from the local psych. ward!
Which brings me back to the late, great Carl Sagan, who insisted we OWE IT TO OURSELVES to be skeptical, or else start believing in pixies again and burning innocent women as witches!
Sorry! Sometimes I get a little bit hot under the collar.
:angry:

Phobos · 2002-06-13 03:12:55

I know what you mean Shaun. I rarely bring up my interest in space exploration outside of this board, but it seems whenever I do people think I'm talking about Astrology. People seem to lump us in with psychics and astrologers and obscure cultist freaks who think residents from Tau Ceti are coming to rescue them. Many people are to short sighted to realize that dedicated space development could help a lot of the environmental and energy problems we experience on the Earth. Sometimes I wonder if humanity is doomed to die because of its own stupid shortsightedness. Anyway, I notice that a lot of people even in the scientific community view Zubrin as something akin to the Rev. Moon. God forbid if we have forward looking visions of colonizing Mars and other places!!

Palomar · 2002-06-13 10:32:07

Shaun wrote: "That's why those of us serious about space exploration and Mars colonisation get packaged up with all the nutcases and tarred with the same brush!!!"

*Yes. Whenever I've mentioned the Mars Society to friends and acquaintances, either in person or online, I make sure to tell them that this ISN'T a "UFO buff thing," mention Dr. Zubrin's credentials, and the fact that Carl Sagan, Buzz Aldrin, and Sir Arthur C. Clarke have all given public, documented praise of Zubrin's ideas. That has been very effective. Usually the only "flack" I may get after that point is, "Well, don't you guys care about the Earth?" -- relating their protest to social and environmental ills, etc. I tell them at the Mars Society is pro-environmental-issues as well.

Shaunt: "Which brings me back to the late, great Carl Sagan, who insisted we OWE IT TO OURSELVES to be skeptical, or else start believing in pixies again and burning innocent women as witches!

*Yes. He was definitely a brilliant, progressive mind. And that huge, sweet grin of his -- I miss him.

Shaun: "Sorry! Sometimes I get a little bit hot under the collar."

*There's no need to apologize, and you're totally justified to get "hot under the collar" about this. The forces of non-reason, irrationality, and mysticism have the potential (as history has proven time and again) to lead to great destruction and human misery.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2002-06-13 10:42:32

Phobos: "Sometimes I wonder if humanity is doomed to die because of its own stupid shortsightedness."

*Yeah. I'll admit to wondering the same.

Phobos: "Anyway, I notice that a lot of people even in the scientific community view Zubrin as something akin to the Rev. Moon."

*What the f*ck?! Please elaborate, or refer me to some web links. It's one thing to disagree with his plans; it's one thing to consider his plans unworkable -- but for some scientific folks to consider him in a manner similar to the leader of a religious cult?? Why I am surprised, though? I am, but now I'm questioning why I am. Short-sightedness isn't just limited to people with low IQs...Galileo's colleagues condemned him.
I've worked throughout my adult life with medical doctors; though they may be very intelligent and well educated, when it comes to plain old-fashioned common sense, some of them can be rather stupid. Maybe it's jealousy on their part, as well; nay-say it because it's brilliant, or at least the best working plan ever laid out for going to Mars, and they didn't think of it -- jealousy, in other words. Damn, this makes me mad.

--Cindy

Phobos · 2002-06-13 16:35:57

*What the f*ck?! Please elaborate, or refer me to some web links. It's one thing to disagree with his plans; it's one thing to consider his plans unworkable -- but for some scientific folks to consider him in a manner similar to the leader of a religious cult?? Why I am surprised, though? I am, but now I'm questioning why I am. Short-sightedness isn't just limited to people with low IQs...Galileo's colleagues condemned him.
I've worked throughout my adult life with medical doctors; though they may be very intelligent and well educated, when it comes to plain old-fashioned common sense, some of them can be rather stupid. Maybe it's jealousy on their part, as well; nay-say it because it's brilliant, or at least the best working plan ever laid out for going to Mars, and they didn't think of it -- jealousy, in other words. Damn, this makes me mad.

Maybe I was exaggerating a bit when I made the connection of Zubrin as a cultist leader, but there are definately scientists and engineers out there who thinks he's some kind of whacked out crackpot with unworkable ideas. Give me some time and I'll dig up some material I've read to make my point. Those people often strike me as being very arrogant and closed minded. Granted, there are problems with Zubrin's plans, but to totally trash him as some delusional nut is going to far. I think its something all visionaries have to contend with, being put through the fire by unreasonable naysayers. And I know what you mean by educated and intelligent people acting unreasonable. I think my favorite example is the story of the truck that got caught under a bridge because it was too large. A bunch of engineers were trying to figure out how to get the truck out from underneath while ignoring one of the engineer's five year old who kept saying to let the air out of the tires.

Palomar · 2002-06-14 11:52:29

Phobos wrote: "And I know what you mean by educated and intelligent people acting unreasonable. I think my favorite example is the story of the truck that got caught under a bridge because it was too large. A bunch of engineers were trying to figure out how to get the truck out from underneath while ignoring one of the engineer's five year old who kept saying to let the air out of the tires."

*Yes, I heard that story. I think they eventually did take the youngster's advice. The true mark of intelligence is the ability to simplify, no?

--Cindy

MS member since 6/01

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