So what if we find out there's no nitrogen on Mars

rustyplanet · 2003-07-20 22:04:30

As far as I know, there's no evidence that nitrogen is present. The atmosphere needs it, but so does the regolith. Actually the regolith needs a lot of things That's the smiley for when the situation is hard to solve right? I hope it is. Anyway, Kim Stanley Robinson mentioned that argon could be substituted for nitrogen but would be very hard to separate out of the regolith. Next to impossible. But if there is no nitrogen, we might be forced to not terraform Mars at all

prometheusunbound · 2003-07-21 06:57:10

Maybe. How bout we just dump 3-4 km comets on mars (loaded with water, nitrogen and carbons) and then terraform it? There is nothing stopping us from doing it.

Bill White · 2003-07-21 07:21:22

Frozen ammonia might well be the most precious material on Mars. Is there any on Phobos or Deimos?

Also, Zubrin's plan was to carry H2 to Mars for the Sabatiers. If there is abundant water we don't need to take H2.

But then we take N2 instead and re-cycle, re-cycle, re-cycle.

dickbill · 2003-07-21 11:02:39

There are some report in the litterature (go to NCBI/PUBMED, search for " Mars Nitrogen ") that say the earth atmosphere, and other planets, has its composition significantly shaped by comets impacts because of all the volatils these comets are made of.
In the case of Mars, just look at Mars, Mars doesn't need more impact, but maybe these impact were due to asteroid-like carbon rich, rather than comet-like water and ammoniac rich bodies. And why's that ? Jupiter ! that big guy sucks all the good stuff that otherwise would go to Mars! the last one being stollen was comet Shoemaker.
Jupiter has been on fast food for too long, it's time we, Martians, claim our right for our stollen nitrogen !

Shaun Barrett · 2003-07-21 20:03:34

Well mercy sakes!!
First Iraq, then North Korea and Iran ... and now this!
Looks like we're jus' gonna hafta add Jupiter to them other sumbitches in the Axis of Evil !!!

Somebody call George Dubya. We need an aircraft-carrier battle group stationed off'n the coast of Jupiter jus' as soon as possible!
Who in tarnation's runnin' that godforsaken place anyhow? ...
:angry:

dickbill · 2003-07-21 21:10:51

Looks like we're jus' gonna hafta add Jupiter to them other sumbitches in the Axis of Evil !!!

You're right Shaun, Jupiter is Axis of Evil !
W forgot to mention it, but now, it's done !

dickbill · 2003-07-23 10:00:00

I have read again the meteorit table of the site of Nirgal (in French, sorry) at :
http://www.nirgal.net/meteori_table.htm … table.html

The only mention of nitrate (as an inclusion of salt in the meteorit) is for EETA 79001. I specify again: nitrate, that doesn't mean that nitrogen gas cannot be found in bubble inclusion in other martian meteorit, but as for nitrate, that's the only one I found. Even so, it is not absolutely sure this nitrate inclusion is not from earth contamination.

When I searched EETA 79001 in Pubmed, I got 3 references, but I have no access to this "Meteoritics" journal . If somebody in this list has access to these papers, please, confirm and let us know exactly what was the nitrate content story, that would be nice.

here are the refs:

1: Drake MJ, Swindle TD, Owen T, Musselwhite DS.
Fractionated martian atmosphere in the nakhlites?
Meteoritics. 1994;29:854-9.

2: Grady MM, Gibson EK Jr, Wright IP, Pillinger CT.
The formation of weathering products on the LEW 85320 ordinary chondrite: evidence from carbon and oxygen stable isotope compositions and implications for carbonates in SNC meteorites.
Meteoritics. 1989;24:1-7.

3: Marti K, Kim JS, Thakur AN, McCoy TJ, Keil K.
Signatures of the martian atmosphere in glass of the Zagami meteorite.
Science. 1995 Mar 31;267(5206):1981-4.

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dickbill · 2003-07-23 13:58:24

Maybe there is no nitrogen on Mars, meaning no nitrates and the only nitrogen present is from the atmosphere.

an interesting ref:

Adv Space Res. 1989;9(6):173-6.
Biological nitrogen fixation under primordial Martian partial pressures of dinitrogen.
Klingler JM, Mancinelli RL, White MR.
NASA-Ames Research Center, Solar System Exploration, Moffett Field, CA 94035, USA.

Early Earth and early Mars were similar enough such that past geochemical and climatic conditions on Mars may have also been favorable for the origin of life. However, one of the most striking differences between the two planets was the low partial pressure of dinitrogen (pN2) on early Mars (18 mb). On Earth, nitrogen is a key biological element and in many ecosystems the low availability of fixed nitrogen compounds is the main factor limiting growth. Biological fixation of dinitrogen on Earth is a crucial source of fixed nitrogen. Could the low availability of dinitrogen in the primordial Martian atmosphere have prevented the existence, or evolution of Martian microbiota? Azotobacter vinelandii and Azomonas agilis were grown in nitrogen free synthetic medium under various partial pressures of dinitrogen ranging from 780-0 mb (total atmosphere=1 bar). Below 400 mb the biomass, cell number, and growth rate decreased with decreasing pN2. Both microorganisms were capable of growth at a pN2 as low as 5 mb, but no growth was observed at a pN2 < or = 1 mb. The data appear to indicate that biological nitrogen fixation could have occurred on primordial Mars (pN2=18 mb) making it possible for a biotic system to have played a role in the Martian nitrogen cycle. It is possible that nitrogen may have played a key role in the early evolution of life on Mars, and that later a lack of available nitrogen on that planet (currently, pN2=0.2 mb) may have been involved in its subsequent extinction .

Bill White · 2003-07-23 15:00:00

The data appear to indicate that biological nitrogen fixation could have occurred on primordial Mars (pN2=18 mb) making it possible for a biotic system to have played a role in the Martian nitrogen cycle. It is possible that nitrogen may have played a key role in the early evolution of life on Mars, and that later a lack of available nitrogen on that planet (currently, pN2=0.2 mb) may have been involved in its subsequent extinction .

Absent nitrogen, how can Mars have living microbes?

dickbill · 2003-07-23 15:57:26

Absent nitrogen, how can Mars have living microbes?

Absent nitrogen, or not enough to be more precise, IN SURFACE. But underground we don't know. We can hypothesize "nitrate beds" from an early warm Mars with plenty of salts dissolved in the water and later on deposited, which then could sustain a hidden, underground life today. But if nitrates are in depositions underground, then, the "meteoritic sampling" that we receive on earth should contain some of these nitrates, however, as I said earlyer, I have found only one reference of a meteorite with nitrate deposits in the Nirgal web site list of martian meteorites (but many with carbonates by the way, which support an early wet Mars).
Can somebody confirm that, or are there other examples of martian meteorites with nitrate inclusion ?

Shaun Barrett · 2003-07-23 21:41:51

I'm afraid I've never been able to find any reference to nitrogen on Mars apart from the 2.7% in the atmosphere.
It's always been at the back of my mind that this dearth of nitrogen would be the biggest impediment to terraforming. Obviously, KSR could find no way around the problem either without resorting to shipping the stuff in from Titan!

We may be reduced to liberating as much nitrogen as we can find from nitrate beds in the regolith (if there are such deposits! ), but essentially having an almost all-oxygen atmosphere of say 350 millibars.
That's if it's feasible (or even desirable) to do such a thing. An atmosphere with that much O2 at that pressure may be too problematic, I'm not sure.

We really need the two MERs and Mars Express to find lots of nitrogen for us because otherwise creating a shirt-sleeve environment on Mars might be impossible.

dickbill · 2003-07-24 09:48:04

We may be reduced to liberating as much nitrogen as we can find from nitrate beds in the regolith (if there are such deposits! )

A big argument agaisnt widespread nitrate in bedrocks is precisely the fact that no martian meteorites found on earth (except one as I said before) contains nitrate. Even worst, some meteorites contains a lot of NaCl, phosphates, sulfates and carbonates in the meteorite interstices, which suggest evaporites or precipitates from a salt rich solution, but no nitrates.
So the meteoritic "sampling" of the martian soil indicates a nitrate deficiency and the only source of nitrogen on Mars would be the atmosphere.

Regarding importing nitrogen from Titan, it has been said (I think by Robert ) that it's much easyer to move a planetary body loosely gravitationaly linked, like a water and ammoniac rich comet in the Kuiper belt. These objects are so far from the sun, that an infime acceleration can disturb them from their orbit and push them anywhere. Of course, to direct such an object precisely to Mars would probably require more than just a blind push, the position of Jupiter is probably an important parameter, but it could be done. I read about some astucious, and very cheap, devices to do that. The space engineers in this list can explain that better than I.
Anyway, if a global Mars terraforming is undertaken in the future, Klingler et al. say 5 mb, at least, of N2 pressure is requested, versus 0.2 mb available right now, so maybe the comets of the Kuiper belt will be used for that.

Rxke · 2003-11-06 08:09:49

instead of impacting asteroids head-on, wouldn't it be more subtle to kinda aero-break them? inserting them into a trajectory so that they 'scrape' Mars' upper atmosphere, and release smaller bits, by breaking up or friction induced evaporation, instead of causing seriously violent impacts... Of course this would be a bit more complicated, bigger asteroids wouldn't break up completely, but zip through the upper layers, causing them to eventually return for a possible head-on impact... they could be re-captured again ater aero-breaking, and pushed into another run, or 'discarded' (sent away further out...)
Of course this is mere speculation with today tech, but, who knows...

dickbill · 2003-11-06 11:47:36

instead of impacting asteroids head-on, wouldn't it be more subtle to kinda aero-break them? inserting them into a trajectory so that they 'scrape' Mars' upper atmosphere, and release smaller bits, by breaking up or friction induced evaporation, instead of causing seriously violent impacts...

sure, a gentle, targeted, entry into the Mars atmosphere would be preferable to a blind crash somewhere on Mars, possibly on a human settlement.
Maybe the polars caps are good targets for comets-like body with a very excentric orbit out of the equatorial plan. You mention asteroids by the way, I think comets would be better. Asteroid are rock rich, sometimes metal rich whereas comets are mostly ice, volatils and even some organic materials, and interestingly, precious nitrogen in the form of ammoniac (which is a strong greenhousing gaz by the way).

The way I see it is: dozens or hundreds of cheap robotic small probes are send in the Kuiper's belt, far beyond Pluto.
http://www.harmsy.freeuk.com/kuiper.html
There, they find thousands of small icy bodies. The small probes contain a cable system with heating devices, or explosives devices, (also, small ionic engines have been suggested I believe) spaced along the cable. The probe's heads target the comets like bullets while the cable turns around the comet body. When the alignment with giant planets is favorable with regards to a Mars collision trajectory, the computer in the probes fires the small engines/explosives in order to destabilize the comets. These comets are very far from the sun, a small push can really move them anywhere, so if the push is well calculated for a gravitational assistance from a giant planet (forget Mars pull), some of these comets could really enter into a Mars collision trajectory.
After the comet moves inside the solar system, the pull from the giant planets will become stronger and I don't believe that the comet's trajectory can be changed at that point. So it's a one shot experiment.
Probably most of these deturned bodies will miss Mars, but some might be "lucky". I don't think the process can be more precise than that, but I might be wrong. Ultimately, if a comet appears to collide Mars in a dangerous spot like a human settlement, it could be necessary to blow it before it crashes.

other ideas ?

dickbill · 2003-11-06 12:29:12

The small probes contain a cable system with heating devices, or explosives devices, (also, small ionic engines have been suggested I believe) spaced along the cable.

why a cable after all ? several explosive or heating devices equiped microprobes plugged into a single comet could do as well.
A computer would synchronize the ignition of the microprobes so that the best positioned probe ( I assume that the comet is rotating) regarding the planet alignement that I mentioned previously would provide the best impulse for a high probability Mars collision trajectory.

I mention heating devices because the gentle, local vaporization of the comet ice could act like a rocket engine.

atitarev · 2003-11-06 21:07:07

If there is no nitrogen on Mars or too little, it should be imported from Titan or from Venus (Venus has 2-3 bars of nitrogen, it only needs to be separated from other gases). It's going to take a long time but who said that terraforming is quick? The larger the containers, the faster the shuttles, the better.

I think we can't get away without shipping gases from planet to planet but if this technology is developed we can terraform other planets. If people want something badly they can make it happen.

dickbill · 2003-11-10 13:01:13

If there is no nitrogen on Mars or too little, it should be imported from Titan or from Venus (Venus has 2-3 bars of nitrogen, it only needs to be separated from other gases). It's going to take a long time but who said that terraforming is quick? The larger the containers, the faster the shuttles, the better.

You refer to a far far future...

You should rather look at the comets in the Kuiper's belt, the inner part of the Oort Cloud, a giant ensemble of millions of comets like objects.

Even more simple than the method I was suggesting before, but also much less precise: a small probe containing a powerfull themonuclear bomb is targeted to hit and penetrate inside one of these extraplutonian bodies. When the alignement Mars/Jupiter/ or other big planet, is favorable for a pull towards Mars, the probe triggers the bomb and vaporize the comet, creating a schock wave that could destabilize nearby comets and send them, at least some of them, in a Mars collision trajectory.
I say some, yes it's not JPL interplanetary navigation precision, but who cares if most of these comets finish in Jupiter ? this is where they would go anyway, at least the process could be cheap and repeatidly enough to generate some succesfull Mars impact.
Imagine a 50 km diameter ice ball containing 1 or 2 % ammoniac among other good stuff, entering the Mars atmosphere at full speed.
What a beautiful rain !

atitarev · 2003-11-10 17:23:55

Sounds good if this is possible. If...

All options should be investigated but to me it sounds a pretty difficult task.

dickbill · 2003-11-10 22:17:39

Sounds good if this is possible. If...
All options should be investigated but to me it sounds a pretty difficult task.

It's not really difficult, but it's probably inefficient.

Blowing an H bomb in the far side of the solar system is in the capabilities of today's technology.

atitarev · 2003-11-10 22:20:48

That's what I meant, difficult to achieve the desired result.

dickbill · 2003-11-11 10:27:01

That's what I meant, difficult to achieve the desired result.

This is not a mechanism based on precision but on chance and numbers. I think that if a powerful nuclear bomb can be inserted deep inside some of these Kuiper/Oort objects, the explosion would vaporize the comets, creating hot gas expending radially instead of directionally like with a rocket divergent.
Several comets in the same region could be blowed up sequentially, creating a series of shock waves that could be enough to destabilize hundreds of nearby comets. Remember that the solar gravity is very weak in this region, a small push towards the sun could really send hundreds of these comets towards the inner solar system.
If the alignement Mars/Jupiter or other giant planet is favorable, maybe a significant fraction of these bodies will have a chance to meet Mars.
A couple of them could make a difference in the Mars atmosphere. I hope so.

Ian Flint · 2003-11-11 11:01:24

The idea of pushing unguided comets toward the inner solar system is good for Mars, but I don't think the billions of people on Earth would like it.
What are the chances of one of those comets colliding with Earth?

A more politically acceptable way of adding nitrogen to Mars would be a guided comet or asteroid, or interplanetary cargo ships.

dickbill · 2003-11-11 12:14:03

The idea of pushing unguided comets toward the inner solar system is good for Mars, but I don't think the billions of people on Earth would like it.
What are the chances of one of those comets colliding with Earth?
A more politically acceptable way of adding nitrogen to Mars would be a guided comet or asteroid, or interplanetary cargo ships.

But how do you guide a "small" 50 or even 10 km diameter iceball comet ? it's too massive.

The answer is in celestial mechanic I believe. If a favorable alignment MArs/Jupiter (or other giant) is important for a gravitational assistance, then the "window of opportunity" might also take into account Earth, such as Earth must be in the opposite orientation relative to MArs at the time the comet arrives in Mars viccinity (I am not sure the terms "oppositions or conjunctions" applied from the Mars point of view) so that if any comet has successfully passed Jupiter or Saturn without being gobbled, the next encounter would be Mars, then the Sun if no Mars collision has occured.
To be at close range with Earth, the comet would have to pass very close to the sun without being gobled. That is unlikely.

But ultimately a "Terran shield defense" would have been set up against the "unlikely". I think that Air Forces have thought about it already, but for a different purpose.

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