Potential Multi-World Future

Void · 2023-01-04 11:24:45

Really a good article Calliban. Many things lately are emerging to change the older views of realities.

I consider us fortunate to have the asteroid belt available, including the Jupiter Trojans. These could give an approximation for a potential future human drift outward, into the void to many other worlds.

Most Kuiper/Oort/Interstellar objects will not be "Dry", so the outer belt, Hilda's, and Trojans will be good training for it. And of course, Ceres will be Dwarf Planet practice.

In another post of yours in another topic, you indicated that Eris, could support the current population of Earth for billions of years. That is presuming that Fusion was possible to use effectively.

I think it is likely that it will be possible "Down The Line", to tap the atmospheres of at least Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune for Fusion fuels.

And since Helion claims (Probably truthfully), that they can manufacture Helium 3 fuel, then I am going to guess that even p-p fusion will be available in some form eventually.

The view that small Oort Cloud objects will consist only of ices, is being challenged. I read an article that indicated a value of 1-20% of the Oort Cloud objects will be "Metals", (As in star content), heavy elements.

To be lazy, I will imagine a 100-kilometer sized object which is cubic. (Maybe the space aliens were amused to confuse us and so built one). Am I correct for a volume number 100 * 100 * 100 = 1,000,000 cubic km? So then, if 1% metals, then 10,000 cubic km of rock (with metals), if 20% then 20 times that or 2,000,000 km of rock. (I try not to do more math that is needed for a visual). So, we probably have not identified 100 km objects in the Kuiper Belt, but each might be a world in itself for humans who have the technology for it.

Estimated number of 100 km objects in the Kuiper Belt?
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/solar-syst … /overview/
Quote:

Overview | Kuiper Belt – NASA Solar System Exploration
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/solar-syst … t/overview
There may be hundreds of thousands of icy bodies larger than 100 km (62 miles) and an estimated trillion or more comets within the Kuiper Belt. 5 Spacesuit Required Some dwarf planets within the Kuiper Belt have thin atmospheres that collapse when their orbit carries them farthest from the Sun. 6 Tiny Moons See more

And that is to leave the Kuiper Belt Dwarf Planets aside, and the objects in the Oort Cloud and the objects beyond.

The material goods available before crossing halfway to the nearer stars, has to be mind boggling. Granted at this time we are not even ready to access the Asteroid Belt very much at all, but anticipating future technological proficiency, (It is hoped), the compulsion to go to another star to establish an alternate home for the human race, lacks any kind of need.

Other practice objects for the human race could be Centaurs: https://www.fossilhunters.xyz/outer-sol … %20Neptune.
Quote:

The Centaur objects are a population of small bodies, similar to asteroids in size but to comets in composition, that revolve around the Sun in the outer solar system, mainly between the orbits of Jupiter and Neptune.
Centaur Objects - Outer Solar System - Fossil Hunters
www.fossilhunters.xyz/outer-solar-system/centaur-objects.html

https://www.britannica.com/science/Centaur-object

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centaur_( … stem_body)

The idea that the orbits of the Centaurs are unstable, presents danger and yet promise.

In the event that one represents a kill shot to a world humans inhabit, then the ability to manipulate them might be important.

If humans wanted to bombard a planet with something, I think the choice would be to use things much smaller.

But if it were possible to shoot a centaur by gravity assist, in the direction of a star, that might be an interesting notion. It would take thousands of years to make the passage, but it might have a civilization of its own, and might access other rogues in its passage to, by, and beyond that star.

But good chances the star itself, may be of a lesser interest, except for science than the object itself, and the rogues it might "Infect" with humans.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-04 12:12:17)

Calliban · 2023-01-04 14:26:33

Proton-proton fusion appears to take place too slowly to be useful in reactors.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton% … oton_chain

That means reactors must be huge (planet sized) to provide enough confinement time and power density will be poor.

I wonder if P-P fusion could be muon catalysed? Apparently not.
https://physics.stackexchange.com/quest … -be-viable

'Note that p-p fusion to deuterium is a weak-interaction process, whose cross section is too low to observe in any terrestrial experiment. Muon-catalyzed fusion is d-d or d-t fusion, where the strong interaction permits a neutron to escape from the nucleus; the weak interaction is not involved (apart from the muon decay).'

Still there is enough energy in the deuterium to fuel a colony for billions of years.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-01-04 14:40:59)

Void · 2023-01-04 20:36:43

Thats a pity about the p-p fusion. I had hoped that if it were true, that Helion can manufacture Helium 3 using two Deuterium's, they could process protons also, but I need to learn more about it, it appears.

Gas giants appear to have equal parts Deuterium, and Helium 3, so finding and tapping those would be an increasable resource is Helion actually goes to production. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bDXXWQxK38 Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune would of course be easier than Jupiter.

Perhaps the interstellar void has some of the desired fuels as well.

You have made me realize that a Brown Dwarf is the least useful object, as its gravity field is so strong relative to gas giants, and they burn up their Deuterium. Stars at least shine and burn regular Hydrogen.

So, it may be the Mini-Neptunes may be very valuable objects in space, particularly if they might have a rocky body accessible near them.

Thanks for your assistance to cause learning Calliban.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-04 20:43:26)

Void · 2023-01-06 21:42:46

Since I ran into this, I decided to place it here.

I have straitened my head out in realizing that the Gas Giants have plenty of easy nuclear fuels Deuterium, and Helium 3, and yet before resorting to that there is plenty of Deuterium on Earth in in various moons, and then it may prove true that Helion can create Helium 3 using Deuterium.

Still, I wanted to place this video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmC9KCz3xtg

I think that it is good to have awareness, almost always.

They talk about the CNO process, (carbon–nitrogen–oxygen). I am not trying to educate you. I am aware that you know much more.

But some members might benefit.

The CNO process sounds like it is a more active process than p-p, but we really don't need to burn actual Hydrogen as the Deuterium and Helium 3 method will do just fine, provided it actually works at a practical level.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-01-06 21:47:42)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-02-09 13:34:38

NASA's Europa Clipper gets its wheels for traveling in deep space

https://phys.org/visualstories/2022-11- … s-deep.amp

NASA is continuing to build the Titan Dragonfly helicopter, with a focus on its rotors

https://phys.org/news/2023-01-nasa-tita … focus.html

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-02-09 13:35:25)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-05-12 12:50:03

NASA's Snake-Like Robot Could Look for Life on an Icy Saturn Moon

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180982149/

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-05-24 18:40:20

We have a number of 'Elevator' threads, hopefully I will have time to post stuff again during the week

'Space Elevator for Space-Resource Mining'
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … rce_Mining
Yoji Ishikawa

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-06-11 08:56:39

We have strong evidence that, like Earth, Europa is home to a global ocean of liquid water, though it's hidden beneath an icy shell. Our mission will look into the nature of that ocean, and whether it could be a possible habitat for life.

https://twitter.com/EuropaClipper/statu … 4048218112

With all deployments complete, Juice is fully stretched out and ready for cruising to Jupiter

https://twitter.com/ESA_JUICE/status/16 … 2103128065

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-06-11 08:57:37)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-06-16 04:13:17

Saturn's moon Enceladus has all the ingredients for life in its oceans; but is life there?

https://www.space.com/saturn-moon-encel … orus-found

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-08-29 14:20:29

A Swarm Of Swimming Microbots Could Be Deployed To Europa’s Ocean

https://www.universetoday.com/162883/a- … pas-ocean/

Void · 2023-08-29 14:48:00

Mars_B4_Moon,

That is interesting. I have in the past imagined building liquid filled elevator shafts for ice shell worlds, of which there may be many.

Borrowing from Issac Asimov, (I think), then you put a weighted oil in them to match the specific gravity of the ice around the shaft.

Of course, the pressures would be very high, but robots might be functional.

But I was wondering if for a world like Titan, if the core is hot, could you somehow generate power by the difference in the liquid ocean's temperature and that of the surface atmosphere?

Believe it or not, I do have a concern for alien life, and so that needs consideration, but the human race has some importance as well, in my calculations.

Done.

Calliban · 2023-09-26 02:42:46

Carl Sagan once speculated that genetic engineering could one day produce plants able to survive in the vacuum of space and colonise the cometary cloud of the solar system. Eventually, quantum computers could allow the development of a life form to be modelled from its genetic code. At that point, we could produce designer species.

Things I find improbable about Sagan's concept are that: (1) Such life would grow and metabolise extremely slowly, due to the weakness of sunlight; (2) Such life would exist in extreme cold. Finding a solvent that would work in deep cryogenic temperatures would be difficult.

However, one of the most interesting concepts in biology is symbiosis. Two lifeforms living together for mutual benefit. If humanity moves into space, it will be employing symbiosis. Humans will provide warm, pressurised and lit environments for plants. Plants will provide food and oxygen.

Perhaps we could take this further to imagine a symbiosis between plants and machines. Plants convert concentrated sunlight into sugar and oxygen. This could be fuel for machines, which would convert local materials into habitats for more plants. In some cases, nano-machines could be integral parts of the plant itself, producing external films that protect it from vacuum and storing oxygen which the plant needs. We could imagine machine-plant hybrids out in the kuiper belt. Machines would construct habitat-trees on comets, using sunlight energy to extract nutrients from comet materials and convey them them to pods, containing the plant elements, that produce the sugar and oxygen that keep the plants and machines alive. The pods would be transparent glass or plastic spheres, located at the focus of foil mirrors. The tree itself would be a machine built structure. The plants are most likely to be algae, as these are most efficient at converting weak sunlight into sugar and oxygen.

The composite organism would propogate through seeds. These would consists of glass spheres containing algae and nanites, the latter of which would get to work building tree support structures when arriving at a new comet. Tree trunks would contain a large pressurised area for storing oxygen. This is where humans could live. The humans would consume excess food and oxygen from the tree. Their primary function is to carry the seeds to new cometary bodies as they spread and colonise.

We could ultimately envisage such a three-way symbiosis as being a Von Neuman machine allowing interstellar colonisation. A probe would carry seeds to another star system. These would contain frozen algae and human embryos. Upon reaching the new star, the probe would plant the seed on a suitable icy body. The seed mirror would unfurl, bringing the algae to life. The nanites would begin metabolising excess sugar and oxygen, reproducing and beggining the work of building the tree. As the tree grows, a central cavity forms, which fills with food and oxygen. Human embryos are grown within the cavity, the machine elements nurture them until they mature into adults. The adult humans then use the excess resources from the growing forest, to build the space craft needed to spread seeds throughout the whole system.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-09-26 03:12:00)

Void · 2023-09-26 11:17:24

As I think you have also said, the symbiosis of that sort already exists. But you are talking about non-human intelligence directing the initiation to other star systems. That is unique to me.

The only thing I had similar was to drop microbes into oceans and those microbes would have multiple stored genomes that were put into silence until needed to make the next organism.

Yours goes deeper.

Done

Calliban · 2023-09-26 14:23:11

The obvious weakness in the idea is that any robotic system that is advanced enough to be self replicating, doesn't have any real need for the plants. It needs energy? Just aim a foil mirror at the sun and generate electric power or direct heat. Photosynthesis is far less efficient. If it needs fuel? Use electricity to electrolyse water, producing hydrogen and oxygen. Solar heat to electricity is 30-50% efficient and electrolysis is 80% efficient. That is 24 - 40% efficient overall. By contrast, photosynthesis is 1-4% efficient.

We could programme the machines to build habitats for humans and plants, but the relationship is one-sided. The humand and plants are a parasitic burden on the machines. The idea of a cyborg lifeform, with machines integrated into it to provide additional capabilities, is an old one. But the machine elements are not generally imagined to be self-replicating. The idea of self-replicating Von Neuman machines, functioning as interstellar seeds for life, is also an old one. But again, any machine advanced enough to do this, has no need for the humans, plants and animals that it would be building the habitat for. So this isn't symbiosis.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-09-26 14:28:12)

tahanson43206 · 2023-09-26 14:30:21

For Calliban and Void re recent posts....

Thank you for developing these ideas!

For Calliban ... while it cannot be guaranteed to last over an extended period of time, it appears that artificial intelligence can be given a bias toward service. I agree that if replication is included in the package, then errors will/may occur over time, so the bias may weaken, but perhaps it will also increase.

In any case, this discussion is well within the province of science fiction writers, so I'm hoping any forum members who try to keep up with the prolific outpouring of science fiction will keep watch for any stories or novels that pursue these ideas.

If there is a forum reader who would like to contribute, and is not currently registered, please see the Recruiting topic for procedure.

(th)

Void · 2023-09-26 15:12:33

In a sense the chemical mechanics of organic life makes them part machine, so I think that machines may not regard organics as useless.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-09-26 15:12:53)

tahanson43206 · 2023-09-26 17:54:35

For Void re #66

You posted an interesting idea, and I hope you will continue developing this kernel of an idea.

It seems to me that small non-intelligent biological structures ** are ** machines.

Those who are pursuing the field of Nanotechnology will ultimately be working at the level of individual atoms, where biological structures operate.

If you are looking for some light bedtime reading, I can recommend "Engines of Creation" by K. Eric Drexler.

(th)

Void · 2023-09-26 20:16:00

I used to read a lot of Sci Fi when young. One book included robots, and the newest version was to be an organic robot.
So, no original thinking with me, but a good memory for some things.

Thanks for the recommendation I may very well order the book.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-26 20:16:47)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-01 19:13:37

Galileo plasma wave observations at Jupiter's moon, Ganymede
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llXu9pSvF54
Sounds of Ganymede's magnetosphere

NASA’s Dragonfly to Proceed with Final Mission Design Work
https://science.nasa.gov/missions/drago … sign-work/

Multi-world will not be a flag planting mission it will involve Domes and Cave and sub-surface colony and keeping humans alive and healthy for long periods in the harsh offworld environments

Juno’s Ganymede Close-up
https://www.nasa.gov/image-article/juno … -close-up/

Two more missions to Jupiter will arrive one from ESA and another from NASA/JPL

https://web.archive.org/web/20160610230 … 202015.pdf

,

https://web.archive.org/web/20140324154 … uments.htm

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-12-01 19:21:13)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-03-02 10:42:01

'LIFE ON AN INTERSTELLAR ARK SHIP'

Isaac Arthur

The vast gulfs between stars may take decades or even centuries to travel, requiring enormous generation ships carrying families and whole ecosystems with them.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/55dCKVJW8yI/

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#51 2023-01-04 11:24:45

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

#52 2023-01-04 14:26:33

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

#53 2023-01-04 20:36:43

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

#54 2023-01-06 21:42:46

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

#55 2023-02-09 13:34:38

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

#56 2023-05-12 12:50:03

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

#57 2023-05-24 18:40:20

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

#58 2023-06-11 08:56:39

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

#59 2023-06-16 04:13:17

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

#60 2023-08-29 14:20:29

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

#61 2023-08-29 14:48:00

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

#62 2023-09-26 02:42:46

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

#63 2023-09-26 11:17:24

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

#64 2023-09-26 14:23:11

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

#65 2023-09-26 14:30:21

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

#66 2023-09-26 15:12:33

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

#67 2023-09-26 17:54:35

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

#68 2023-09-26 20:16:00

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

#69 2023-12-01 19:13:37

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

#70 2024-03-02 10:42:01

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

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