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#51 2023-09-21 17:28:14
- Mars_B4_Moon
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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution
Time to board the hydrogen bus, says CSIRO. The report claims that hydrogen fuel will play a key role in the future of transport, and highlights places for governments and industry to focus their efforts.
https://cosmosmagazine.com/technology/e … -vehicles/
Australia needs to embrace hydrogen transport infrastructure, according to a new report by the CSIRO.
The report claims that hydrogen fuel will play a key role in the future of transport, and highlights places for governments and industry to focus their efforts.
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-09-21 17:28:51)
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#52 2023-11-28 15:06:17
- tahanson43206
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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution
The article at the link below contains "forward looking" projections...
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/reac … 00528.html
The reason I decided to post the link is that the company in focus appears to be harvesting "free" energy in a clever way .... Aluminum requires a significant investment of energy in order to prepare it for use in products. As I interpret the article, this company collects used Aluminum that is on it's way to being recycled, and uses the aluminum in an exothermic reaction that produces aluminum oxide. The clever use of this resource gives the company an economic benefit, and it yields a product (aluminum oxide) that is available for input to the aluminum industry, at a cost much less that mined aluminum from bauxite.
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#53 2023-12-06 17:18:32
- Mars_B4_Moon
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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution
Can China make Hydrogen Electrolyzers cheap as it did for Solar? If it can, hydrogen can replace natural gas, another huge win against climate change.
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#54 2023-12-07 03:50:18
- Calliban
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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution
Can China make Hydrogen Electrolyzers cheap as it did for Solar? If it can, hydrogen can replace natural gas, another huge win against climate change.
The answer is 'No', even if they can reduce the cost of electrolysis stacks. Natural gas is something we extract from the ground. The energy is almost free. Hydrogen is something that we must manufacture using expensive electricity. It could substitute natural gas in limited applications. But it will never replace all of the functions performed by natural gas. Most likely, we will eventually rely on it as a feedstock rather than as a direct energy source.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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#55 2023-12-07 07:17:27
- tahanson43206
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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution
The answer to Post #53 is most certainly "YES" ...
The key is to use solar power to make hydrogen without using a single molecule of the stored energy Calliban reminds us was stored long ago from solar energy captured in plants, and squeezed by gravity and thermonuclear churning of the Earth's mass.
All that stored energy has given the human race a running start in developing the technology needed for life off planet. There are no comparable stored chemical energy sources elsewhere in the solar system. Humans need to learn how to stop living off the egg we've been given.
Fortunately, we have 8 billion people, and of that number, a few are working on developing the technologies we need to live comfortably without drawing upon the chemical stores we've been exploiting.
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#56 Yesterday 07:35:36
- tahanson43206
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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution
In another topic, Void recently posted a link to a report on research to improve the efficiency of water splitting to make hydrogen (and oxygen).
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 55#p228255
The method improves performance 200 times (according to the report). That number deserves study.
The method involves quantum physics used to improve electron transitions to allow the bonds between hydrogen and oxygen to let go.
The method currently (in late 2024) requires the use of rare earth materials, but the researchers will continue looking for more common elements to implement their technique, now that they know it works.
The claim of 200 times improvement seems suspect to me, so I'm hoping a NewMars member will investigate to see where that number comes from .
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#57 Yesterday 11:43:50
- kbd512
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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution
After careful scientific analysis, I was able to deduce the "special element" they're using:
![632_240x240_Front_Color-White.jpg?Size=Small-3x3&AttributeValue=NA&c=True®ion={%22name%22:%22FrontCenter%22,%22width%22:2.25,%22height%22:2.25,%22alignment%22:%22MiddleCenter%22,%22orientation%22:0,%22dpi%22:200,%22crop_x%22:0,%22crop_y%22:0,%22crop_h%22:400,%22crop_w%22:400,%22scale%22:0,%22template%22:{%22id%22:78941058,%22params%22:{}}}&cid=PUartJBjiF%2Fyg4FdKqiggQ%3D%3D+%7C%7C+3sauT6nzR0eWEM3le9aH4g%3D%3D&ProductNo=861271294&Filters=[{%27name%27:%27background%27,%27value%27:%27ddddde%27,%27sequence%27:2}]](https://i3.cpcache.com/merchandise/78941058/632_240x240_Front_Color-White.jpg?Size=Small-3x3&AttributeValue=NA&c=True®ion={%22name%22:%22FrontCenter%22,%22width%22:2.25,%22height%22:2.25,%22alignment%22:%22MiddleCenter%22,%22orientation%22:0,%22dpi%22:200,%22crop_x%22:0,%22crop_y%22:0,%22crop_h%22:400,%22crop_w%22:400,%22scale%22:0,%22template%22:{%22id%22:78941058,%22params%22:{}}}&cid=PUartJBjiF%2Fyg4FdKqiggQ%3D%3D+%7C%7C+3sauT6nzR0eWEM3le9aH4g%3D%3D&ProductNo=861271294&Filters=[{%27name%27:%27background%27,%27value%27:%27ddddde%27,%27sequence%27:2}])
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#58 Yesterday 12:15:26
- tahanson43206
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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution
For kbd512 re #57
Your conclusion may well be right, but you did not show your work. Therefore, your post is essentially useless for a reader wanting to learn more about this incredible (ie, unbelievable) claim.
I decided to take analysis step by step...
First, the article cites the Max Planck Institute .... it turns out there are several of them, all associated with the Max Planck Society.
Per Google, I get the impression the Max Planck Society exists and it appears to have several Institutes:
AI Overview
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The Max Planck Society is a German-funded, non-governmental organization that operates over 80 research institutes around the world:
Max Planck InstitutesThese research institutions are organized into five categories based on their research area:
Astronomy & Astrophysics
Biology & Medicine
Material & Technology
Environment & Climate
Humanities
Max Planck CentersThese research institutions are located in partnership with other universities, such as:
Princeton University in the USA
Paris University Science Po in France
University College London in UK
University of Tokyo in JapanThe Max Planck Society was founded in 1911 as the Kaiser Wilhelm Society, and was renamed in 1948 after its former president, Max Planck. The society is known for its basic research in the natural sciences, life sciences, and humanities. Some of the topics that Max Planck Institutes research include: Climate change, The human brain, and Human mobility.
Here are some examples of Max Planck Institutes:
Max Planck Institute for Human Development
Located in Berlin, this institute studies human development, education, and human-machine interaction.Max Planck Institute for the History of Science (MPIWG)
Located in Berlin, this institute studies the history of science and how scientific thinking and practice have evolved.Max Planck Institute for Psycholinguistics
This institute studies language and communication, including how children and adults acquire language, how the brain processes language, and how language is related to cognition and culture.Max Planck Florida Institute for Neuroscience (MPFI)
Located in Palm Beach County, South Florida, this institute provides a collaborative environment for scientists to conduct research.The Max Planck Society for the Advancement of Science
Topic Specials * Topic Specials. Climate and transformation. In addition to climate forecasts, the consequences of climate change...Max-Planck-Gesellschaft zur Förderung der Wissenschaften
List of Max Planck Institutes - Wikipedia
Max Planck Institutes are research institutions operated by the Max Planck Society. There are over 80 institutes. Most of them are...Wikipedia
Max Planck Society - Wikipedia
History. The society's logo features Minerva, the Roman goddess of wisdom. The organization was established in 1911 as the Kaiser ...Wikipedia
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Generative AI is experimental.Max Planck Institutes and Experts
Max-Planck-Gesellschaft zur Förderung der Wissenschaften
https://www.mpg.de › instituteswhat is the max planck institute from www.mpg.de
The Max Planck Institutes carry out basic research in the life sciences, natural sciences and the social and human sciences.
MPI of Physics · Max Planck Unit for the... · Institute of Animal Behavior · Nobel Prize
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#59 Yesterday 12:21:39
- tahanson43206
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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution
Following up further, I am curious about the researcher cited in the article.
It appears there ** is ** such a person, but I did not seen a connection to Max Planck in this list...
Binghai Yan
Weizmann Institute of Science
http://www.weizmann.ac.il › sites › files › shortCV
C: Employment History. 2008 - 2010. Humboldt postdoc University of Bremen (Prof. Thomas Frauenheim), Germany. 2010 - 2011. Postdoc.
5 pagesHome | Yan Group - Topological Materials
Weizmann Institute of Science
https://www.weizmann.ac.il › condmat › Yan
We are exploring the beauty of physics in real materials by both first-principles calculations and analytical methods.Binghai Yan
Google Scholar
https://scholar.google.com › citations
Associate Professor, Weizmann Institute of Science, Israel - Cited by 30729 - topological materials - quantum geometry - chirality
Publications
Topological materials: Weyl semimetals
B Yan, C Felser
Annual Review of Condensed Matter Physics
2017
Large-gap quantum spin Hall insulators in tin films
Y Xu, B Yan, HJ Zhang, J Wang, G Xu, P Tang, W Duan, SC Zhang
Physical review letters
2013
Extremely large magnetoresistance and ultrahigh mobility in the topological Weyl semimetal candidate NbP
C Shekhar, AK Nayak, Y Sun, M Schmidt, M Nicklas, I Leermakers, U Zeitler, Y Skourski, J Wosnitza, Z Liu
Nature Physics
2015
Weyl semimetal phase in the non-centrosymmetric compound TaAs
LX Yang, ZK Liu, Y Sun, H Peng, HF Yang, T Zhang, B Zhou, Y Zhang, YF Guo, M Rahn
Nature Physics
2015
Large anomalous Hall effect driven by a nonvanishing Berry curvature in the noncolinear antiferromagnet Mn3Ge
AK Nayak, JE Fischer, Y Sun, B Yan, J Karel, AC Komarek, C Shekhar, N Kumar, W Schnelle, J Kübler
Science Advances
2016
Superconductivity in Weyl semimetal candidate MoTe 2
Y Qi, PG Naumov, MN Ali, CR Rajamathi, W Schnelle, O Barkalov, M Hanfland, SC Wu, C Shekhar, Y Sun
Nature communications
2016
Prediction of Weyl semimetal in orthorhombic MoTe 2
Y Sun, SC Wu, MN Ali, C Felser, B Yan
Physical Review B
2015
Strong anisotropic anomalous Hall effect and spin Hall effect in the chiral antiferromagnetic compounds Mn 3 X (X …
Y Zhang, Y Sun, H Yang, J Železný, SPP Parkin, C Felser, B Yan
Physical Review B
2017
Oscillatory crossover from two-dimensional to three-dimensional topological insulators
CX Liu, HJ Zhang, B Yan, XL Qi, T Frauenheim, X Dai, Z Fang, SC Zhang
Physical Review B—Condensed Matter and Materials Physics
2010
High electron mobility and quantum oscillations in non-encapsulated ultrathin semiconducting Bi 2 O 2 Se
J Wu, H Yuan, M Meng, C Chen, Y Sun, Z Chen, W Dang, C Tan, Y Liu, J Yin
Nature nanotechnology
2017
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Google ScholarBinghai Yan - Associate Professor - Weizmann Institute of ...
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Israel · Associate Professor · Weizmann Institute of Science
Professor at Weizmann Institute of Science, Israel · ניסיון: Weizmann Institute of Science · חינוך: Tsinghua University · מיקום: Israel · 457 חיבורים על ...Binghai Yan
MPI CPfS
https://www.cpfs.mpg.de › cv_binghai_yan
Yan. Extremely large magnetoresistance and ultrahigh mobility in the topological Weyl semimetal candidate NbP. Nature Physics 11 (2015), 645–649 ...Home | yan-group
Wix.com
https://binghaiyan.wixsite.com › yan-group
I am a condensed-matter physicist working on ab initio materials simulations. My recent research is focused on the design and prediction of exotic topological ...Prof. Binghai Yan - Profile
Alexander von Humboldt-Stiftung
https://www.humboldt-foundation.de › singleview › pr...
Binghai Yan. Profile. Academic position, Lecturer, Assistant Professor, Researcher. Research fields, Theoretical Condensed Matter Physics,Surface Physics.Binghai Yan's lab - Weizmann Institute of Science
ResearchGate
https://www.researchgate.net › lab › Binghai-Yan-Lab-2
Principal Investigator: Binghai Yan | Topological Quantum Materials | ResearchGate, the professional network for scientists.Binghai Yan - Physics Magazine
American Physical Society
https://physics.aps.org › authors › binghai_yan
Jun 17, 2019 — Binghai Yan is an Assistant Professor at the Weizmann Institute of Science in Israel. After completing his Ph.D. at Tsinghua University in ...颜丙海
清华大学高等研究院
https://www.ias.tsinghua.edu.cn › 20230823-yanb...
Aug 23, 2023 — Binghai Yan is an associate professor in the department of condensed matter physics at the Weizmann Institute of Science, Israel. He is a ...
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#60 Yesterday 12:28:17
- tahanson43206
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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution
The next step is to see if the Weizmann Institute of Science is affiliated with Max Planck Society... it appears the answer is yes...
is Weizmann Institute of Science associated with max planck institue or max planck society
These are results for is Weizmann Institute of Science associated with max planck institute or max planck society
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Yes, the Weizmann Institute of Science (WIS) in Rehovot, Israel is associated with the Max Planck Society (MPS):Historical relationship: The two institutions have a close relationship that dates back to the 1950s, shortly after the Holocaust.
Shared focus: Both institutions focus on basic research.
Joint centers: The two institutions have established several joint centers, including:Max Planck Weizmann Center for Integrative Archaeology and Anthropology: This center brought together expertise from archaeology, anthropology, biology, physics, and material sciences to study human evolution.
Max Planck-Weizmann Joint Postdoctoral Program: This program offers a four-year position for postdoctoral researchers in fields like physics, chemistry, mathematics, computer science, and earth science. The program's goals include:
Nurturing a new generation of scientists
Deepening scientific collaboration and exchange
Attracting outstanding researchers to begin their professional careersIsrael - Max-Planck-Gesellschaft
The Weizmann Institute of Science in Rehovot near Tel Aviv is the Max Planck Society's key partner, not just because of their spec...Max-Planck-Gesellschaft
Max Planck-Weizmann Joint Postdoctoral ProgramWeizmann Institute of Science
Weizmann Institute and Max Planck Society create joint postdoctoral program - Weizmann Canada
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IsraelMax-Planck-Gesellschaft zur Förderung der Wissenschaften
https://www.mpg.de › ... › International › Country Portals
The Weizmann Institute of Science in Rehovot near Tel Aviv is the Max Planck Society's key partner, not just because of their special historical relationship, ...Weizmann Institute and Max Planck Society create joint ...
Weizmann Canada
https://www.weizmann.ca › weizmann-institute-of-scien...
May 23, 2023 — Alon Chen and Max Planck Society (MPG) President Prof. Martin Stratmann signed a cooperation agreement with the aim of deepening scientific ...Max Planck-Weizmann Joint Postdoctoral Program
Weizmann Institute of Science
https://www.weizmann.ac.il › sites › mpg-wis
The Max Planck Society (MPG) and the Weizmann Institute of Science (WIS) are thrilled to announce a prestigious opportunity for outstanding postdoctoral ...Max Planck Society
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The Max Planck Society for the Advancement of Science is a formally independent non-governmental and non-profit association of German research institutes.Weizmann Institute of Science and Max Planck Society Create ...
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May 23, 2023 — Weizmann Institute of Science and Max Planck Society Create a Joint ... Indeed, we feel very connected to the Weizmann Institute in ...The Max Planck Institute, Israel and Me. Personal ...
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https://mpil100.de › 2024/11 › the-max-planck-institute...
Nov 22, 2024 — The close ties between the Max Planck Society and the Israeli scientific community, especially the Weizmann Institute of Science, go back to ...Weizmann and Max Planck Establish Joint Center ...
American Committee for the Weizmann Institute of Science
https://www.weizmann-usa.org › news-releases › weizma...
Jan 11, 2012 — The creation of the center marks more than five decades of collaboration between the Max Planck Society and the Weizmann Institute. This ...Max Planck Weizman Joint Center in the Field of ...
Weizmann Institute of Science
https://www.weizmann.ac.il › pages › max-planck-weizm...
The second “spirit” behind this Center is the long and important history of collaboration between the Max Planck Society (MPS) and the Weizmann Institute of ...Max Planck-Weizmann Postdoctoral Program, Germany ...
Researchersjob
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Oct 31, 2024 — Max Planck-Weizmann Postdoctoral Program: The Max Planck Society (MPG) and the Weizmann Institute of Science (WIS) are thrilled.
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#61 Yesterday 12:35:50
- tahanson43206
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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution
When I searched the Weizmann Institute web site for Binghai Yan I got 74 citations.
I'll now attempt to refine the search to see if hydrogen comes up...
This is better but it is still a lot of results (13)
research-groups
Condensed Matter Physics Binghai Yan Binghai Yan Department of Condensed...activities can be found at the Yan group website . Past SAERI members...Scientific Publications | André Deloro Institute
https://centers.weizmann.ac.il/DeloroSp … blications
Yan L., Zimmerman E. A., Anand S.,...Somalwar J., Wise J. L., Wold A., Yan L. & Yao Y. (2024), Astrophysical...Organic Chemistry | Weizmann Institute of Science
https://www.weizmann.ac.il/pages/resear … es/faculty...
Binghai Yan Prof. Karina Yaniv Dr. Leeat...based on catalytic design Hydrogen Storage. Design and development...Earth and Planetary Sciences | Weizmann Institute of Science
https://www.weizmann.ac.il/pages/resear … es/faculty...
Binghai Yan Prof. Karina Yaniv Dr. Leeat...abundance of carbon, oxygen and hydrogen isotopes in CO2, O2, H2O and...Theory of Chirality Induced Spin Selectivity: Progress and Challenges
Binghai Yan, and Leeor Kronik* F. Evers...3400, Austria K. Michaeli, B. Yan Department of Condensed Matter... https://www.weizmann.ac.il/chembiophys/ … ons/theory...
Binghai Yan, and Leeor Kronik* F. Evers...3400, Austria K. Michaeli, B. Yan Department of Condensed Matter...Last modified: Thu, 21 Jul 2022
Materials and Interfaces | Weizmann Institute of Science
https://www.weizmann.ac.il/pages/resear … es/faculty...
Binghai Yan Prof. Karina Yaniv Dr. Leeat...electrolytes and polyelectrolytes. Hydrogels Soft matter at interfaces...feinberg-e-2023.pdf_yearbook_english.pdf
Binghai Yan Thesis: New directions for...Sciences Advisor: Prof. Binghai Yan Thesis: Unusual spin polarization... https://www.weizmann.ac.il/wsos/sites/f … ok_english...
Binghai Yan Thesis: New directions for...Sciences Advisor: Prof. Binghai Yan Thesis: Unusual spin polarization...Last modified: Mon, 28 Oct 2024
feinberg-h-2023_original.pdf_yearbookhebrew.pdf
Binghai Yan Thesis: New directions for...Sciences Advisor: Prof. Binghai Yan Thesis: Unusual spin polarization... https://www.weizmann.ac.il/wsos/sites/f … iginal.pdf...
Binghai Yan Thesis: New directions for...Sciences Advisor: Prof. Binghai Yan Thesis: Unusual spin polarization...Last modified: Mon, 28 Oct 2024
feinberg-e-2022.pdf
Binghai Yan Thesis: Nonlinear anomalous...Weinstein Dr. David Wiener Dr. Xin Yan Dr. Eden Yifrach Dr. Yu Zhang... https://www.weizmann.ac.il/wsos/sites/f … e-2022.pdf
Binghai Yan Thesis: Nonlinear anomalous...Weinstein Dr. David Wiener Dr. Xin Yan Dr. Eden Yifrach Dr. Yu Zhang...Last modified: Mon, 28 Oct 2024
Publications | AMOS
https://www.weizmann.ac.il/AMOS/publications
Yan B., Jiménez-Galán Á., Ivanov...D., Smirnova O., Silva R. E., Yan B., Jiménez-Galán Á., Ivanov...feinberg-h-2022.pdf
Binghai Yan Thesis: Nonlinear anomalous...biology ד״ר קסין יאן Dr. Xin Yan המחלקה להיחידה לארכיאולוגיה מדעית... https://www.weizmann.ac.il/wsos/sites/f … h-2022.pdf
Binghai Yan Thesis: Nonlinear anomalous...biology ד״ר קסין יאן Dr. Xin Yan המחלקה להיחידה לארכיאולוגיה מדעית...Last modified: Mon, 28 Oct 2024
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#62 Yesterday 12:39:23
- tahanson43206
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- Registered: 2018-04-27
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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution
I attempted to follow up on the author of the article, because at this point I am beginning to suspect that the reporter made hash of the reports coming out of the research.
Mrigakshi Dixit is the name associated with the article.
The last line of the article states that the material was first published in
The findings were published in the journal Nature Energy.
So what is Nature Energy?
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"Nature Energy" is a peer-reviewed scientific journal published by Nature Portfolio, focusing on all aspects of energy research, including generation, storage, distribution, management, and the societal impacts of energy technologies and policies; essentially covering the full spectrum of energy research from basic science to policy implications.
Key points about Nature Energy:
Focus: Publishes research on all aspects of energy, from generation and storage to distribution and management, including the societal impacts of energy technologies.
Format: Monthly, online-only journal
Publisher: Nature Portfolio
Research areas: Solar energy, wind energy, wave energy, geothermal energy, hydroelectricity, energy harvesting devices, nuclear power, fuel cells, hydrogen energy, transportation fuels
Nature Energy
A nationally determined contribution framework for energy transition minerals. A framework for governments to define their domesti...Nature
Journal Information | Nature Energy
Nature Energy is a monthly, online-only journal publishing the best research on energy, from its generation and distribution to th...Nature
Self archiving and license to publish | Nature Energy
Nature Portfolio author licence policy This policy applies to all journals published by Nature Portfolio, including Nature and the...Nature
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Nature Energy is a monthly, online-only journal publishing the best research on energy, from its generation and distribution to the impacts energy technologies and policies have on societies. All editorial decisions are made by a team of full-time professional editors.Journal Information | Nature Energy
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Nature Energy is a monthly peer-reviewed scientific journal published by Nature Portfolio. The editor-in-chief is Nicky Dean.Our publishing models | Nature Energy
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Nature Energy is actively committed to becoming a fully Open Access journal. We will increase the number of articles we publish OA, with the eventual goal of ...Publishing options | Nature Energy
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Articles that are published OA are freely available online, and are published under a Creative Commons license, which allows for reuse and sharing under the ...Content Types | Nature Energy
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News & Views articles inform readers about the latest advances in energy research, as reported in recently published papers or at scientific meetings. They may ...Nature Energy - Impact Factor & Score 2024
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Nature Energy focuses on Redox research as part of the broader topic of Inorganic chemistry. The Battery (electricity) works featured in it incorporate elements ...Aims & Scope | Nature Energy
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In addition to publishing original research, Nature Energy will publish Comments, Perspectives, Reviews, News & Views, Features and Correspondence from across ...Nature Energy
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Duration of manuscript handling phases ; Duration first review round. 2.1 months ; Tot. handling time acc. manuscripts. 4.5 months ; Decision time immediate ...Nature Energy
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Nature Energy is dedicated to exploring all aspects of this on-going discussion, from the generation and storage of energy, to its distribution and management.
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At this point my working theory is that the article author made a mistake. So far everything I've looked at appears to be legitimate.
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#63 Yesterday 12:47:12
- kbd512
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- Registered: 2015-01-02
- Posts: 7,881
Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution
Okay, I'll provide a little more background. When you shine light of certain wavelengths on topological chiral (handedness) crystals, such as IR, they produce electricity, or directional current flow, somewhat similar to how a photoelectric cell works, but an entirely different operating principle. Regular photovoltaics work on exploitation of semi-conductor bandgap to induce directional current flow. A topological chiral crystal substance would work more along the lines of, this handed structure arranges the atoms in such a way that shining light on a more or less homogeneous substance with a particular crystalline structural arrangement does what multiple layers of different materials do.
Some of the more outlandish claims made, such as "massless electrons" and whatnot, I cannot speak to. Claims such as that are sciency-sounding gibberish to me, equivalent to, "I don't know how to actually explain the odd results I'm looking at, so I'm going to label it an example of XYZ theory, without having to actually prove what's happening in an unambiguous way". Stating that this new doped chiral crystal catalyst material used to split water is 200 times more efficient than something else, without specifying what that "something else" actually was, nor what all energy inputs and outputs from a process entail, doesn't tell anyone anything useful at all.
It could very well be the case that the topological chiral crystal speeds up the reactivity rate by 200X over Platinum-doped mesh materials, but that doesn't tell me anything whatsoever about how much input energy went into this reaction vs how much Hydrogen came out. It only tells me that the crystal is 200X faster water-splitter than electricity run through a Copper or stainless steel mesh doped with Platinum.
If, however, we're claiming that we get 200X more net energy out of the water splitting reaction than whatever went into it, then known physics cannot help you, because there are no known working perpetual motion machines. If that is the actual claim, and the wording of the claim certainly is deliberately misleading, then we can endlessly power this reaction using its Hydrogen output. To date, all such claims have been certified Grade A "BS", and this sciency-sounding article provides zero pertinent details or explanation to distinguish between a 200X reactivity rate increase and total energy input compared to output.
I have to wonder about what the qualifications are for being a MSN science writer, because it certainly appears as if a baseline understanding of "Stanford Science" (scientific principles reducible to repeatable engineering practices) is not amongst them. True breakthroughs are always a possibility, since our understanding of physics and materials science is far from complete, but we know enough to know that there are zero examples of working perpetual motion machines, thus actual science articles should not so much as intimate that without literal mountains of overwhelming evidence.
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#64 Yesterday 12:50:24
- tahanson43206
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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution
For kbd512...
It would be helpful to know how efficient existing electrolysis methods of separating hydrogen from oxygen are.
It should be possible to discover how much energy is released when a sample of water is created.
It would be helpful if we had a familiar measure such as a kilogram of water to study.
If you have time and the subject is of interest, please post the amount of energy released when a kilogram of water is formed from oxygen and hydrogen gas.
Whatever that amount is, it is the amount that must be invested to recover the oxygen and hydrogen from the kilogram sample.
Next, if might be possible to find out how efficient existing methods are.
That "200" figure the article writer tossed out probably came from somewhere in the research, but it might have originally something like 200 electron volts or something equally minor.
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#65 Yesterday 13:04:37
- kbd512
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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution
tahanson43206,
Is that enough of an explanation?
Here's what I think you could do with this discovery:
One could feasibly make the photovoltaic cell providing electrical energy input and the water-splitter the same device, thus you have a panel of active material that generates electrical power input using photonic input, for the express purpose of splitting water, and it requires no electrical conductor cabling, power conditioning equipment, or reverse fuel cells. You still need water feed pumps, compression pumps, and something to power the pumps to compress the Hydrogen into storage tanks. This tech doesn't do any of that, but it does take care of the water splitting problem without having multiple pieces of discrete equipment and energy-intensive materials to deliver and consume electrical power.
Could it be a better mousetrap?
I certainly hope so, but I would like to see what the limitations of the tech are before making any proclamations about it replacing reverse fuel cells, which are already about 95% efficient and commercialized technology now available from multiple vendors.
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#66 Yesterday 13:09:32
- kbd512
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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution
Hysata's capillary action reverse fuel cell, Horizon's AEM, and one or two other companies have 95% efficient reverse fuel cell water electrolyzers.
Here's an article from National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL):
LOW COST, HIGH EFFICIENCY REVERSIBLE FUEL CELL SYSTEMS
Take note of the document's date (2002), take note of the efficiency targets (92% to 95%), and then take note of when Hysata released their previously experimental fuel cell technology (2024), meaning the projected efficiency goal was actually achieved and commercialized, some 22 years later. Also take note of the fact that Hysata is not the only company to achieve that level of total efficiency, as Horizon AEM has a water electrolyzer that also meets the 95% efficiency target. It's almost as if previously experimental reverse fuel cell tech was commercialized, and 95% is the present electrical efficiency capability of the current generation of tech.
With another 20 years of refinement, I'll bet 98% or higher is achievable. What I don't anticipate, something that nobody else should anticipate, either, is that we've finally "discovered" a metal coated "magic crystal" that's going to output net energy when we pour water over it.
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#67 Yesterday 14:00:21
- tahanson43206
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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution
I was surprised to find the original paper open for viewing ...
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41560-024-01674-9
The SAs of the chiral catalysts exceeded those of achiral electrodes in 1 M KOH. In particular, the SA of RhBiS at an overpotential of 300 mV exceeded achiral electrodes of RuO2, RhTe and RhTe2 by about 200-fold, 25-fold and 40-fold, respectively. The SA of RhSn was 1.76 times that of the achiral RhTe despite the stronger SOC in the latter. The Gibbs free energies further indicated that the activities of all Rh-based chiral catalysts were dependent on the SOC strength rather than following the free energy from a thermodynamic perspective (Supplementary Fig. 11 and Supplementary Table 3). These findings indicate the importance of structural chirality for the spin-related electron transfer in the OER.
and the summary:
Conclusion
We have uncovered a design principle for chiral catalysts that promote the spin-dependent OER, quantified the effects of topological spin texture on OER activity and presented the experimental evidence of a close relationship between the spin-amplified OER and SOC. Our results suggest that a strong SOC is crucial for generating high spin polarization in chiral crystals. The SA of RhBiS, which exhibited the strongest SOC among the tested chiral catalysts, was about 200 times that of the RuO2. Our work facilitates the design of highly efficient chiral catalysts for spin-dependent chemical reactions. Therefore, in future endeavours, the development of top-performing catalysts could encompass spin polarization as a fundamental property for chiral materials with SOC serving as a valuable descriptor.
My conclusion is that what the reporter picked up on was the discovery that one process was 200 times better than another process in the family of processes they were examining. I deduce that this discovery might ? might reduce the cost of the process, but as kbd512 has shown, it is unlikely to improve the efficiency of the process in terms of energy expended.
In order to understand the implications of the reported discovery, it seems to me a human being would need to understand how industry currently decomposes water. My knowledge is limited to images of bubbles of gas coming from electrodes in a Leyden jar in a classroom experiment. Since this topic is available for NewMars members, if someone has the time and energy to find and post links to explanations of how water electrolysis is performed on an industrial scale around the world, this would be a great place for it.
I should also note that the 95% and 98% efficiency cited by kbd512 earlier today (2024/12/02) may NOT be the correct values for industrial scale equipment and processes in use around the world.
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#68 Yesterday 15:05:32
- tahanson43206
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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution
Wikipedia's article on water electrolysis contains estimates of efficiency of existing industrial process that appear to hover around 80%. The article includes discussion of Real Universe conditions that reduce the efficiency, such as the need to remove salt and other impurities.
Efficiency
Industrial outputIllustrating inputs and outputs of simple electrolysis of water, for production of hydrogen.
Efficiency of modern hydrogen generators is measured by energy consumed per standard volume of hydrogen (MJ/m3), assuming standard temperature and pressure of the H2. The lower the energy used by a generator, the higher its efficiency would be; a 100%-efficient electrolyser would consume 39.4 kilowatt-hours per kilogram (142 MJ/kg) (higher heating value) of hydrogen,[59] 12,749 joules per litre (12.75 MJ/m3). Practical electrolysis (using a rotating electrolyser at 15 bar pressure) may consume 50 kW⋅h/kg (180 MJ/kg), and a further 15 kW⋅h (54 MJ) if the hydrogen is compressed for use in hydrogen cars.[60] By adding external heat at 150 °C (302 °F), electricity consumption may be reduced.[61]There are three main technologies available on the market: alkaline, proton exchange membrane (PEM), and solid oxide electrolyzers.
Alkaline electrolyzers are cheaper in terms of investment (they generally use nickel catalysts), but least efficient. PEM electrolyzers are more expensive (they generally use expensive platinum-group metal catalysts) but are more efficient and can operate at higher current densities, and can, therefore, be possibly cheaper if the hydrogen production is large enough. Solid oxide electrolyzer cells (SOEC) are the third most common type of electrolysis, and the most expensive, and use high operating temperatures to increase efficiency. The theoretical electrical efficiency of SOEC is close to 100% at 90% hydrogen production.[62] Degradation of the system over time does not affect the efficiency of SOEC electrolyzers initially unlike PEM and alkaline electrolyzers. As the SOEC system degrades, the cell voltage increases, producing more heat in the system naturally. Due to this, less energy is required to keep the system hot, which will make up for the energy losses from dramatic degradation initially.[63] SOEC requires replacement of the stack after some years of degradation.
Efficiency
Electrolyzer vendors provide efficiencies based on enthalpy. To assess the claimed efficiency of an electrolyzer it is important to establish how it was defined by the vendor (i.e. what enthalpy value, what current density, etc.).Conventional alkaline electrolysis has an efficiency of about 70%.[64] Accounting for the accepted use of the higher heating value (because inefficiency via heat can be redirected back into the system to create the steam required by the catalyst), average working efficiencies for PEM electrolysis are around 80%.[65][66] This is expected to increase to between 82 and 86%[67] before 2030. Theoretical efficiency for PEM electrolysers are predicted up to 94%.[68]
In 2024, Australian company Hysata announced a device capable of 95% efficiency relative to the higher heating value of hydrogen. Conventional systems consume 52.5 kWh to produce hydrogen that can store 39.4 kWh of energy (1 kg). Its technology requires only 41.5 kWh to produce 1 kg. It uses a capillary-fed electrolyzer to eliminate hydrogen and oxygen bubbles in the fluid electrolyte. Bubbles are non-conductive, and can stick to electrodes, reducing electrode exposure to the electrolyte, increasing resistance. Hysata places the electrolyte at the bottom of the device. Capillary action draws it through a porous, hydrophilic separator between the electrodes. Each electrode has complete contact with the electrolyte on the inner side, and a dry chamber on the outer side.[69][70] The effect of the build-up of impurities in the cell from those initially present in the feed water is not yet available.
Cost
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#69 Yesterday 15:56:05
- kbd512
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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution
tahanson43206,
You're quite correct in stating that the efficiency of current pervasive industrial scale equipment is not 95%, because to this day industrial scale Hydrogen gas production relies upon steam reformation of Methane / natural gas. There is no industrial scale generation of Hydrogen gas using any other method, because fuel cells cost a lot more money than a natural gas pipe and the much cheaper catalysts used to crack Methane. However, in numerous pilot scale "green energy" setups (mostly for motor vehicles or grid energy storage) incorporating fuel cells and reverse fuel cells as energy backup, these reverse fuel cells, using the latest commercialized tech, are indeed 95% efficient and that has been independently verified six ways from Sunday.
The "Gold Standard", or "Platinum Standard" for fuel cell catalysts, such as it were, is Platinum. The catalyst is loaded / "adhered to" some kind of supporting structure, such as a fine wire mesh membrane inside a normal or "reverse" fuel cell. You could substitute the fine wire mesh for CNT, thereby achieving much greater surface area, at greatly reduced weight, if reaction rate or fuel cell weight is a problem. The latest tech, which was finally commercialized this year, is capillary action or anion exchange membranes, both of which achieve 95% electrical efficiency. That means if you put 100kWh of electricity in, then you get 95kWh worth of Hydrogen gas as output.
That doesn't mean a fuel cell which reacts Hydrogen with atmospheric Oxygen is 95% efficient, because normal "air" is mostly Nitrogen by weight and volume, merely that the process of splitting water has now become 95% electrically efficient. The closer that process comes to 100% efficient, the better, because you still need additional energy to compress the Hydrogen gas. Compression consumes lots of energy. The reaction inside a normal motor vehicle fuel cell that produces electrical power output is nowhere near 95% efficient, so far as I'm aware, more like 50% to 70%, and 75% seems to be the upper bound. If said vehicle had a tank of pure O2 onboard, then its efficiency might be higher, but so would its operating temperature, and at some point a normal PEM and Alkaline fuel cell will melt down without cooling, thus the waste heat from the reaction is the energy sink associated with using a normal fuel cell.
If this new chiral crystal tech can replace Platinum catalysts while providing the same electrical efficiency as a Platinum catalyst, or become a solar-direct-Hydrogen option (no separate reverse fuel cell), then that's a "win", because it means the cost of the entire device or at least the catalyst is lower. If the catalyst can be a common metal, then any kind of PEM fuel cell is far less expensive, when mass produced, in comparison to a short-lived electro-chemical battery, and the vehicle it powers has roughly the same weight as a gasoline powered vehicle, so it has the same power requirements, but uses less energy overall. All the measures taken to improve power electronics and electric motor efficiency still benefit fuel cell powered vehicles, but the size and weight of the "fuel tank" is no longer a substantial portion of total vehicle weight.
The "big win", would be finding a replacement for Platinum or the entire reverse fuel cell device, such that only the vehicle itself requires a fuel cell to consume the Hydrogen, and that fuel cell no longer requires special metals like Platinum. We could also go mine one of those pure Platinum asteroids, and then finding a more abundant substitute for Platinum is largely a moot point. That said, when you can use abundant materials in novel ways, that is generally "the best method". Thus far, there are no acceptable substitutes for Platinum.
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