Speculative Notions

Void · 2023-09-19 19:24:23

The management can certainly ask for changes about this topic.

(th) Asked me to start a topic about landing a spacecraft on an inclined surface, as it was apparently not a good fit where I was posting.

Now and then I think people have notions that have a high degree of speculation in them, and perhaps they are not ready to be taken totally seriously yet, in some topic. So, here I suggest it might be OK to put such orphans, perhaps they could be adopted at some point to an elsewhere location in some topic.

Just now my eye is on assisted landing and launching methods, specifically for the Moon, but perhaps also adaptable to other low gravity worlds.

Done.

Void · 2023-09-19 19:25:25

This speculation is about landing on an incline downward of the Moons surface. This is in the family of shock absorbing landing methods, where the primary work of shock absorption is at least significantly from the landing surface.

Anyway, this is in part inspired by aircraft landing on an Aircraft Carrier. They have worked out a lot of it except that they cannot use a decline surface as the runway. I anticipate that kdb512 could advise me if I am out of line on my speculations.

This could be a bit like Ski Jumping where if it is done with skill the landing object remains intact and merges its inertia with that of the landing surface. The merging event has an element of time stretching. The impact is stretched over time to seek to avoid going beyond the yield tolerance of the device. I realize that some ideas may be known widely but probably the military does not want them revealed in the level of craft that exists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ski_jumping
Image Quote:
Quote:

Model of a ski jumping hill. A-B – point of departure; t – take-off zone; HS – total hill length; P-L – landing area; K – K-point

In reality we would be dealing with P-L.

https://www.space.com/7891-cosmic-winte … ry%20style.
Quote:

Cosmic Winter Olympics: Moon Skiing and Mars Skating
By Charles Q. Choi published February 12, 2010

Image Quote: vSwQmzvqTbWjPcLajFTSfM-1024-80.jpg.webp
quote:

In 1972 during the Apollo 17 mission, astronaut Harrison Schmitt runs on the moon. Astronauts learned that in the lower gravity, a skipping motion worked well. (Image credit: Apollo 17 Crew, NASA)

Quote:

Moonskiing
Theskiing that astronauts have tried on the moon was not on snow, but on moondust.
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Apollo17 geologist Harrison "Jack" Schmitt invented a no-gear method for akind of lunar cross-country skiing. "In the moon's low gravity," heexplained to NASA, "you can ski above the moondust ? and I did. Imagineswinging your arms and legs cross-country style. With each push of your toe,your body glides forward above ground. Swing, glide, swing, glide. The only marksyou leave in the moondust are the toe-pushes."
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"Ithink downhill techniques would work very well on the moon," Schmittadded. "You even have built-in moguls, the impact craters on the slopes.Lunar gravity would allow all kinds of jumps and hops that you might finddifficult on Earth."
However,unlike true snow, moondustis very abrasive, far more so than sand. While typical grains of sand onEarth have rounded edges, moondust grains have very sharp edges "andscratch anything that comes in contact with them," Schmitt said, made asthey are from rocks shattered by millennia of meteor bombardment. Any skiing orsledding on the moon would require very tough equipment.

Here is a general response if you wish to read more just scroll down: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Skiing+on … d=msedgntp

So, I anticipate that you might want to have a hook method with robotic adjusted drag on a cable.
You may want a cattle chute, that is fences on the side. They would have a wide space between them but might draw together as the spacecraft would pass down the hill.

On the spacesraft itself I suppose I am imagining runners, and that those can be lubricated at the bottoms with cold gas thrusters perhaps, or hot gas. Some fixture for the hook mentioned above to hook to. Some kind of a sea anchor that might drag behind upon landing, maybe.

Dog sled technology might have something to teach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_sled

So, at the end of the cattle chute a net if necessary.

My idea on this is to conserve propellants. Ideally the spaceship should be able to land on the Moon without assistance, but then it would deplete its propellants. This assisted landing method might allow conservation of propellants.

While Oxygen conserved is not that valuable, fuel would be, as you could then take the conserved fuel and burn it in some process to create water and CO2, presuming you have a hydrocarbon fuel. If Hydrogen, then of course only water then.

CO2 I likely to be a good gas to use in heat engines and heat pumps on the Moon, so I tend in that direction.

Of course, a ship in trouble might try such a landing even if they did not have enough propellants or thrust method to make a normal landing.

I want to make a post about mechanical mass drivers for ships, but I will wait until other members may comment if they wish.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-20 07:26:10)

tahanson43206 · 2023-09-20 06:42:50

For Void re new topic and specifically slope lithobraking ...

Thank you for opening this new topic, and for your strong start with Post #2

Software modeling of interactions of matter is now far advanced over it's early attempts. While the expense is great, your idea may attract favorable attention by someone with access to the resources needed.

A heat shield that was dealing with CO2 molecules (in a Mars landing) would certainly find interacting with sand particles quite challenging. There ** is ** a possibility that is not available when slowing in gas ... the sand particles might be persuaded to accumulate in front of the vehicle/package instead of rebounding and flying off. This would have the beneficial effect of providing new material in the shield, which would otherwise be worn away, and it would increase the mass that the energy of the arriving package must accelerate to maintain constant velocity.

Best wishes for success in finding support for investigation of your idea. This new topic is opened in the Science Index level. There should be no need for anyone posting in this topic to comment upon other human beings. My hope is that the topic will be of interest to readers outside the forum, so keeping an academic tone will help.

(th)

Void · 2023-09-20 07:28:20

Thanks (th). Since you mentioned Mars I will speak about a version for it, I may also mention other worlds.

If a departure from symmetry in the ship is permitted, the landing side of the ship during entry to the atmosphere may be on the "Top" of the ship. This may include runners or skis. So, then a heat shield method would be on the bottom of the ship in this orientation. Once passing tough the harsh part of entry to atmosphere, the ship may rotate 180 degrees to present its landing surfaces then downward, and the heat shield upward. I think that the heat shield method might best be like the Stokes Space method by using a cooling fluid, and a very thermally tolerant heat shield though which fluid is run. A new idea emerges for this. Something additional.

Magnetic Heat Shielding: https://www.universetoday.com/46474/the … -magnetic/
I will say that so far, I prefer not to include Magnetic Heat Shielding, as it adds complexity and perhaps dry mass. But if a liquid is being boiled to cool a surface, then a turbine with generator might generate power for a magnetic heat shield during atmospheric entry. So you would have a combination of liquid cooling and magnetic protection. It may be possible that the magnetic heat shield may also protect from some radiation at times other than atmospheric entry. Such a heat shield may also allow the collection of gasses from the atmosphere. So, then if you did several skips, you might collect gasses to use to cool the heat shield when you finally took the final plunge. But I think such a system if it were practical will need a very long time to develop and perfect.

So, for now I prefer the strait Stokes Space notion.

On Mars we have many sloping surfaces. We also have sand dune materials which may be good to land on, on a decline.

We also have fresh CO2 frost at high latitudes seasonally.

Titan might be a dream to use a system like this on. If fusion power becomes practical, then Titan becomes really interesting. Triton and Pluto, just might work also if with fusion the atmospheres were better inflated. It may be that Nitrogen could be conserved better with a world wide magnetic shield in that case.

Mercury looks to be like our Moon in many ways, but you might use a graphite lubricant on the runways, or on Mercury and the Moon you might make fresh snow, if you are in a shadowed crater.

These worlds, with the exception of Titan at this time present a challenge for landing due to little or no atmosphere. But launching from this is in some degree favorable for the same lack of atmosphere.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-09-20 07:59:44)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-09-20 07:59:00

If you get stuff to fly like ballons, helicopters or aircraft then Mars upsloping runways can actually help deceleration but it will take a lot of work to make anything fly in its thin air, the opposite is true for downsloping runways. On Earth in Alaska sometimes pilots will get an old banged up Cessna and make it air worthy and send it down slope off some Glacier and get it into the air, things are not very well regulated, it is frontier territory and over a decade Alaska can have hundreds of accidents and Alaska comes with the highest US rate of deadly air crashes. Runway with slope will also create illusions, approach can looks steeper because field inclination is steeper relative to the plane's attitude, the aircraft thinking it is higher than it is with an upslope or lower than it is with downslope.

The French Alps

'The Most Dangerous Landing'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pK9uqF4y7c

In Earth atmosphere, Earth gravity

https://pilotworkshop.com/tips/downslop … rformance/

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-09-20 08:07:34)

Void · 2023-09-20 08:01:02

Thanks for that information, Mars_B4_Moon, I think that it is very good.

Done.

Void · 2023-09-20 08:06:52

I think it is still fine to move back to landing methods for spacecraft, but I also want to start dealing with catapult methods to launch spacecraft. My ideas so far deployed potential energy to assist a launch. But Spin-Launch, is a catapult that stores kinetic energy to catapult a 2-stage rocket upward in the Earth's atmosphere.

So, both methods are inverse to Mass Drivers. Mass Drivers use electromagnetic methods to accelerate a load. Catapults first build up some mechanical force energy storage to assist the launch of a spacecraft.

The Neuman Drive if used as matter projector is yet another sort of animal.

I had overlooked Spin-Launch. I think it might be very good on the Moon, to launch magnetic materials to a receiver in orbit. But that remains to have much more discovery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpinLaunch
Quote:

SpinLaunch is a spaceflight technology development company working on mass accelerator technology to move payloads to space.[3] As of September 2022, the company has raised US$150 million in funding, with investors including Kleiner Perkins, Google Ventures, Airbus Ventures, ATW Partners, Catapult Ventures, Lauder Partners, John Doerr, and the Byers Family.[4][5]

If a projectile having a lot of Magnetite were the sent device, it might lithobrake into an orbiting magnetic field. The core of the receiver might be a sponge of Magnetic materials to cushion and envelope the impacting projectile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetite
Quote:

Magnetite is a mineral and one of the main iron ores, with the chemical formula Fe2+Fe3+2O4. It is one of the oxides of iron, and is ferrimagnetic;[6] it is attracted to a magnet and can be magnetized to become a permanent magnet itself.[7][8] With the exception of extremely rare native iron deposits, it is the most magnetic of all the naturally occurring minerals on Earth.[7][9] Naturally magnetized pieces of magnetite, called lodestone, will attract small pieces of iron, which is how ancient peoples first discovered the property of magnetism.[10]
Magnetite is black or brownish-black with a metallic luster, has a Mohs hardness of 5–6 and leaves a black streak.[7] Small grains of magnetite are very common in igneous and metamorphic rocks.[11]
The chemical IUPAC name is iron(II,III) oxide and the common chemical name is ferrous-ferric oxide.[12]

So, in the Magnetite you have Iron and Oxygen which might be useful in orbit. Additionally the projectile may have attached passenger materials of many types if you want to project those to orbit for use, from the Moon.

SpinLaunch might accommodate that.

So, flywheel storage of kinetic energy may be suitable for catapult assisted launches from the Moons surface and also other worlds.

My thinking was more to use potential energy catapults as they may be suitable to other loads, maybe even ships with humans in them, maybe. And I will hope to develop some notions for that or would be happy to receive such from other members. But breakfast calls.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-20 08:24:10)

Void · 2023-09-20 09:55:13

Kinetic and/or Potential energy can be stored by devices, the origin would be from an electric source, and very possibly solar, but could be Nuclear Fission.

So, then Flywheels and Weights as energy storage devices. Discharging that energy might be completely mechanical but could involve MG Sets, where a motor drives a generator, so then am massive discharge of Mechanical Motor>Generator>Electric Motor to drive the catapult.

And then I start with the notion of an Aircraft catapult: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_catapult
Quote:

Aircraft catapult
..................Different means have been used to propel the catapult, such as weight and derrick, gunpowder, flywheel, air pressure, hydraulic, and steam power, and solid fuel rocket boosters. The U.S. Navy is developing the use of Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch Systems with the construction of the Gerald R. Ford-class aircraft carriers..............................

Gunpowder really looks interesting, if some explosive powder could be manufactured from Moon regolith. I am supposing that someone knows how to do it, but I guess it is knowledge that belongs only in the hands of responsible actors, so I will not go deeper.

I will however say that it looks like a good thing for the Moon, and perhaps a combination of things could be used.

Here again my hope is for maybe 1% to 20% of needed Lunar Orbital speed from the catapult system.

https://www.quora.com/How-long-does-it- … volume-etc
Quote:

How long does it take to orbit the moon, and what determines the speed of orbit? I am also wondering if the orbit is slower around the moon in mph vs the earth because there is less gravity, volume, etc.
Profile photo for ChatGPT
ChatGPT
The time it takes for an object to orbit the Moon depends on the altitude of the orbit. The average orbit time for a spacecraft orbiting the Moon is about 27.3 Earth days, or 655.8 hours.The speed of orbit is determined by the gravitational pull of the body being orbited and the altitude of the orbit. The closer an object is to a body, the faster it will have to move in order to maintain orbit.The Moon has approximately 1/81 the gravitational pull of Earth, so an object orbiting the Moon would have to move much slower than an object orbiting Earth in order to maintain orbit. This means that the orbit of the Moon around the Earth is slower than the orbit of the Earth around the Sun.In terms of miles per hour, the average speed of orbit for a spacecraft orbiting the Moon is about 2,288 mph (3,683 km/h). This is significantly slower than the average speed for a spacecraft orbiting Earth, which is about 17,500 mph (28,000 km/h).

So, in Miles 22.88 mph, for 1%, and 456 mph for 20%.
So, in km then 36.83 km/h for 1% and 736.6 km/h for 20%

I think that these may be within reach and with time perhaps even more.

I'm not saying humans should ride such, but that is also a "With Time and accumulation of skills", a thing to learn later.

Some orbits of the Moon are more stable than others: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frozen_orbit

-------------------

So, I feel that it is possible that if mass drivers of various kinds can work, then a ship launched with assistance to a Low Lunar Orbit could be refilled with Oxygen from a processing station in orbit or proximity of the Moon. Also, if the Earth's atmosphere can be mined then Oxygen could be supplied to ships there.

And for bulk mass transfers, Neuman Drive methods might be used, and also electric rockets using Argon and Nitrogen might be used.

Catapults might also be used on stations in orbit.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-20 10:32:20)

Void · 2023-09-20 10:41:39

So, to adapt SpinLaunch to the Moon, maybe the rocket sent can be simplified to a single stage which can partly circularize its orbit.

If it includes significant amount of Magnetite, it might be possible to pull it into a fuzzy ball of magnetic particles, as a shock absorber. More or less a lithobraking action.

A device impacting such a fuzzy magnetic ball may actually become embedded into it. A thin coat of Aluminum on it might work a bit like a ablative heat shield, I sort of venture.

The projectile having magnetite in it would then have Iron and Oxygen. An Aluminum coating even if vaporized might condense on the metal particles of the catcher. (Actually, I am imagining lower impact speeds than that, but in time?).

The projectile needs brains and a propulsive method. The brains SpinLaunch has apparently solved, and the propulsion, but for the Moon we may want something else. Maybe explosive charges sequentially set off, or a hybrid rocket burn? I think Calcium and Aluminum may make good fuels. I guess that detail goes to professionals not speculators like me.

While the magnetic receiver might have a deep exterior layer of iron/magnetite particles, inside, it might have further shock absorbers, maybe spring plate sorts of things, or air bags. Whatever might help.

It seems like a cylinder with open ends north and south might work. If you had a fission reactor inside to power it, it could reject heat to the North and South skies. But somehow solar might work. Tricky though.

Done.

The object with such a powerful magnetic field may lose orbital speed over time by inductive reactance to materials in the Moon.

However it might also gain speed by sailing on the solar wind with it's magnetic field. The strength of the field could be modulated to suit the desired sailing effects.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-20 10:52:15)

Void · 2023-09-21 09:46:10

I will just put this here and wonder about its potential uses in the posts prior to this post.

Seems like Carbon Nanotubes are growing up!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … cade5&ei=4
Quote:

Scientists discover ‘magical’ material that’s stronger than steel and lighter than aluminum — and its potential is dizzying
Story by Rick Kazmer •
6h

Carbon is a treasure, it seems and if you have a use for it, then you might afford to pull it out of the atmosphere.

I think it can probably be hard landed on the Moon, and for Venus and Mars, these structures may have great value.

Floating cities on Venus might make good use of it, I think.

Done

It would be amusing to live long enough to enter a time when people might be prohibited from taking Carbon from the Atmosphere, as things were getting too cold.

Galvorn: https://dexmat.com/

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-09-21 09:53:10)

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#1 2023-09-19 19:24:23

Speculative Notions

#2 2023-09-19 19:25:25

Re: Speculative Notions

#3 2023-09-20 06:42:50

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#8 2023-09-20 09:55:13

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