New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: This forum is accepting new registrations by emailing newmarsmember * gmail.com become a registered member. Read the Recruiting expertise for NewMars Forum topic in Meta New Mars for other information for this process.

#1 2018-07-12 10:10:06

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 2,419

NASA adding more SLS Block 1 launches to manifest.

https://spacenews.com/nasa-adding-more- … -manifest/

Don't see the point of this other than filling the trough for Boeing back up to the brim with taxpayer dollars.

The rationale given is based upon the lengthy time between the block 1 and more powerful block 1B launches due to need for modification of the mobile launcher system for the more capable rocket.

By the time we see ANY SLS launches, we may be seeing either the Blue Origin New Glenn or SpaceX BFR flying regularly?

Last edited by Oldfart1939 (2018-07-12 17:27:46)

Offline

#2 2018-07-12 12:15:09

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 5,615
Website

Re: NASA adding more SLS Block 1 launches to manifest.

As Bugs Bunny used to say:  "Hmmmmmmmm,  could be!"

If either flies before SLS block 1B,  that will definitely reveal the SLS/Orion for the corporate welfare program that it is. 

Meanwhile,  I see news reports indicating the GAO identified a risk that NASA mismanagement of the crewed commercial programs might push first flight beyond the deadline ending Soyuz flights,  risking no access at all to or own space station. 

Could happen if they don't get their act together and just get on with flying Dragon 2 and CST-100.  Delays seem to me to be (1) shifting requirements things,  and (2) delaying Spacex long enough so that Boeing does not get embarrassed.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2018-07-12 12:16:40)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

Offline

#3 2018-07-14 18:11:06

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: NASA adding more SLS Block 1 launches to manifest.

NASA’s Changing Human Spaceflight Exploration Plans

This has the EM-1 mission details, the gateway and more....

Offline

#4 2018-07-15 10:12:06

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 2,419

Re: NASA adding more SLS Block 1 launches to manifest.

The Deep Space Gateway (now the LOP-G) is nothing more than another delaying program designed to provide pork to the preferred vendors. Totally irrelevant in light of both SpaceX and Blue Origin plans and developing capabilities. But that's simply MHO. If access to ISS is really jeopardized, NASA may wipe the egg of their faces and push Boeing and SpaceX schedules ahead faster.

Last edited by Oldfart1939 (2018-07-15 10:12:36)

Offline

#5 2018-07-15 13:24:11

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: NASA adding more SLS Block 1 launches to manifest.

Space x is sort of pushing as I started a new topic for the first flight of the unmanned capsule test vehicle to which we have been talking about the things which make it a good design for a crew in Uncrewed Dragon mission. Then again as always its a bit thin on design details...

Offline

#6 2018-07-31 20:30:36

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: NASA adding more SLS Block 1 launches to manifest.

With more mission this will mean that the shuttle engines will get used up quickly. Aerojet Rocketdyne progressing towards six-engine RS-25 production run

The engines are impressive..

2018-07-31-183759.jpg

There is a long lead time and there are just sixteen engines left over from the Space Shuttle era, which will be used on the first four launches. Formerly known as the Space Shuttle Main Engine (SSME), SLS will fly four RS-25 engines at a time instead of the three in Shuttle, operate them at higher power levels and pressures and lower temperatures, and in a more severe thermal environment.

New builds of the RS-25 engine, which burn liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen, will be flown at a higher power level than will be used for the first SLS launches, 111 percent of the original SSME “rated power level” (RPL) of 375,000 pounds of thrust at sea level, 470,000 pounds thrust at vacuum. The first four launches with the adaptation engines will typically fly at 109 percent RPL.

Offline

#7 2018-08-19 11:20:27

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,848
Website

Re: NASA adding more SLS Block 1 launches to manifest.

Saw a report that claimed to cite the Office of Inspector General. It said SLS will not be ready to launch until 2020 earliest, they already spent $23 billion and will need more than $210 billion to reach Mars. !?!?!?!

Offline

#8 2018-08-20 01:17:39

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 2,419

Re: NASA adding more SLS Block 1 launches to manifest.

RobertDyck wrote:

Saw a report that claimed to cite the Office of Inspector General. It said SLS will not be ready to launch until 2020 earliest, they already spent $23 billion and will need more than $210 billion to reach Mars. !?!?!?!

Sound like an incremental approach to the 90 day plan? This whole SLS system to "recover" some of the technology thrown away after Ares/Constellation cancellation is absurd. Costs are out of control with no concrete objective other than a lunar space station--whatever they're calling it this month.

Oh? They're calling it the LOP-G now? Lunar Orbiting Platform-Gateway.

Last edited by Oldfart1939 (2018-08-20 06:47:00)

Offline

#9 2018-08-20 19:08:43

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: NASA adding more SLS Block 1 launches to manifest.

The SLS capability for the various configurations
SLS_Lift_Capabilities.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Launch_System

Well the list of possibly confirmed missions seem to be delaying a crewed mission in order to give more time for the new second stage.

DEEP-SPACE DEPLOYMENT FOR SMALLSATS

SLS Trans Lunar Payload Delivery Capability Overview

For manufacturing and contracts to get better for price it needs to fly alot more than just once a year....

Offline

#10 2018-09-04 19:31:32

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: NASA adding more SLS Block 1 launches to manifest.

Something that needs to be run in and out to the launch site has been done SLS ML set to roll back to the VAB this coming weekend

Along with all the changes to that pad there are more details that will come as the vehicle does change.

2018-08-29-222208.jpg

“We’re also doing an upgrade of the LH2 tank area where we’re adding a 1.4 million gallon sphere and plumb that in next to the 960,000 gallon sphere that we have in place today – as we weren’t going to have sufficient storage capability for a quick (scrub) turnaround (for Block 1B),” Mr. Hill noted.

Offline

#11 2018-12-15 22:32:17

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: NASA adding more SLS Block 1 launches to manifest.

More delays for the manned flight..during the timing of various stages. “Plan D for Outer Space” — NASA updates EM-2 mission baseline

gerst_nac-open_dec-2018_final.EM-2.Late-2018-Baseline.Slide-11.50pct.jpg

Offline

#12 2018-12-18 21:15:18

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 2,419

Re: NASA adding more SLS Block 1 launches to manifest.

By the time this happens (if non cancelled!), the BO New Glenn will be flying, as well as (hopefully) the "Starship." Meanwhile, NASA "thinkers (?) and planners will be hoping that some of the congressional "sugar daddies" don't croak first. I'm not a betting man, but a bet against this ever happening might be a sure winner.

Offline

#13 2018-12-19 10:13:16

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 5,615
Website

Re: NASA adding more SLS Block 1 launches to manifest.

This is exactly what you should expect when you let brain-dead Congress micromanage the programs and objectives of your space agency for pork-barrel interests above all else. 

Plus this is what happens to all organizations (of any type or origin) when they grow too big:  cancerous bloat stifles all.   

How do you fix this?  I honestly don't know.  But I'd bet it looks an awful lot like starting over from scratch. 

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

Offline

#14 2018-12-19 16:38:04

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 7,606

Re: NASA adding more SLS Block 1 launches to manifest.

GW,

In your era, we gave each contractor a piece of the project to work on and that worked because NASA was so active in the overall program.  If NASA wants a rocket built "their way", then they need to assume a far more active role as lead or prime integration contractor to resolve issues instead of leaving their subcontractors to their own devices.  Each subcontractor on Saturn V built a single major piece of the Saturn series of rockets, as is the case with SLS, but NASA's own people were far more involved in the testing and evaluation process than they are today.  It's obvious as an onlooker that that paradigm has shifted and that the contractors are milling about because they lack focused program objectives and/or adequate communication with NASA.  We also have this progress-killing incrementalism approach to everything that's just not necessary.  We're not so feeble-minded that we can't replicate or improve upon past technology, we just need people to put their foot down and say "this is the way it is, and if you don't like it then you can go off and build your own".  After the basic test article is built, tested, and flown (with humans aboard), then you can add as much stuff to the basic design as a launch vehicle can push uphill (exactly what ISS did).  If the launch vehicle can't do it, then you're out of luck.

Boeing was given nearly double the amount of money that SpaceX required to produce the same result, yet somehow Dragon 2 will be flying before Starliner.  There's something basically wrong with that, unless Starliner provides twice the capability of Dragon 2.  SpaceX has made all of their good ideas a grab-bag for any space contractor to use.  Unlike Blue Origin, Boeing, Orbital ATK, and ULA, there are no big damn secrets because SpaceX's overriding ethos is to get things done by any means necessary and to keep pushing for everything you're worth until you push the payload over the finish line.  All of our space contractors should be working with a grab bag of technologies.  Need a solar array that deploys "like this", well, here's the patent.  You can buy it from the contractor that originated the idea or you can use their patent and build it yourself, but either way the knowledge has been shared and you can do whatever you need to do with it.

Example:

Boeing thinks we need a SEP propulsion stage to transfer heavy cargo and humans to Mars.  That's fine if that's what the math tells them we should build to enable a mission using a minimal number of launches, but you don't then need to start with a 50kWe system in lunar orbit, then build another system in lunar orbit that's 150kWe, and finally ending up with a 300kWe system to actually go to Mars.  If you know that you need a 300kWe solar array to send humans to NASA's ultimate destination, then you design / test / build a 300kWe system and nothing else.  There is no magic in a 300kWe vs 50kWe solar array.  It's just a lot of hard engineering work.

We don't need a 42 day mission in the deep space habitat, followed by a 200 day mission, followed by a 400 day mission.  We've already had astronauts living and working aboard ISS in the exact same type of modules for the exact same period of time.  We know that we have more GCR radiation to contend with, that our waste recycling systems must be slightly better, and that all consumables have to be pre-loaded into the habitat module.  We don't need to "work up" to a 400 day mission, though.  The very first mission should be a full 400 day dress rehearsal in lunar space that replicates the entire Mars transit duration.  If something doesn't work, figure out why, fix it, and move on.

Do large solar arrays work in space? ISS proves it every day it's up there, we just have more efficient panels available today
Does the MPLM deep space habitat module work? ISS has had one permanently attached to it for many years
Does the Aerojet-Rocketdyne X3 electric engine work? Ground testing gave it two thumbs up, so fly it
Do we have a heavy lift rocket to send the critical transportation assets to lunar space?  SpaceX is flying Falcon Heavy as I write this

The heavy lift rockets and individual mission architecture components required to live in deep space exist right now, as in today, but someone with a little bit of intestinal fortitude must decide that they're going to build something and fly it, imperfect though it may be, test it in the only operational environment that matters, and incorporate any lessons learned from the test article into the Mars-rated variant.

ISS proves every day that Al2219 tuna cans last for at least a decade in what has become a shooting gallery known as Low Earth Orbit.  If it survives the shooting gallery, it'll survive anywhere else.  You don't need to pretend that you lost half your brain inside your rear end when it comes to long duration human survival in space.  All the major transportation components just work.  It makes no difference if it's "perfect" for deep space or not.

The Apollo Program didn't produce multiple variants of the Apollo capsule or Saturn V rocket that weren't capable of completing a lunar mission and the fact that we're even messing around with Orion and SLS for this long indicates that some incredibly profound dysfunction exists within NASA and/or their subcontractors that prevents them from picking a solution that can feasibly work and running with it.

Offline

#15 2018-12-19 18:08:10

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: NASA adding more SLS Block 1 launches to manifest.

Boeing is still using the government triplet form and processes to prove its built to specifications of design and drawings where Space x is just building it with less confirming documentation.

For sls as a driving force will be the first launch of any soviet built modules as Nasa will not want any egg on its face for failure to live up to reputation.

Offline

#16 2023-09-18 07:00:17

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,774

Re: NASA adding more SLS Block 1 launches to manifest.

The RS-25 engine installation process has begun for the SLS rocket that will help power NASAArtemisII. The engines produce more than 2 million pounds of thrust to help send NASA_Orion and the crew inside around the Moon.

https://twitter.com/nasa_sls/status/1701997850995970099

After Spending Billions of Dollars on SLS, NASA Admits Its Moon Rocket Is 'Unaffordable'
https://gizmodo.com/nasa-sls-unaffordab … 1850818625
A new report accuses the space agency of a lack of transparency regarding the cost of its SLS program

Offline

#17 2023-09-18 20:32:54

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: NASA adding more SLS Block 1 launches to manifest.

There has been since it starts a view that the senate launch system/ any use of the old and tired shuttle parts and that is just not going to change any time soon...

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB