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Mars will have villages and farms and processing facility, some of these villages could be very far apart in some very far away hard to reach places.
I can not find the topic for what I am about to post. Mars will need far away connections, once Mars has farms and a series of chemical processing centers it will need a very wide system of transport to link these villages and maybe also link them by peaceful exchanges and culture, interaction and communication.
I am looking for a topic about Traveling around the whole Planet, moving from the North Pole or South Pole to the Equator or moving across the Martian landscape. I found many fringe topics on ideas for Roads and Steel Architecture, Transport on Europa and Titan using Submarines, Ford's old idea for Nukemobiles, fringe almost scifi ideas for unknown locations in the planets of 'Alpha Centauri', there was discussion on China space tech, NASA flying and Helicopters, there was also a post about circumnavigation of the Moon in 2023 by SpaceX and Japanese Billionaire. It would be logical to assume with many people wanting many different locations as villages Mars will probably be very spread out transport, there must be a way to connect all regions as cheap as possible and it will truly be an unconquered frontier.
There have been so many options discussed for planetary wide transport systems. Some discussions wanted big subway system using the already existing Lava Tubes and Caves and Tunnels as living space and working space. Others said don't use underground but build a Route 66, an Orient Express or Trans-Siberian Railway or something like the Canadian transcontinental railway project. Many suggest over ground Train transport or Monorail and Maglev, people will be happier on the surface during travel and looking at the Sun. There are recent discussion a 'Steam Engine Open Cycle', series of Helicopters or Aircraft, a Nuclear powered Car, a series of Rover Buggy or Bikes or Trucks and Balloons and Gliders.
I think before successful villages are set up Mars must first have a Circumnavigation 'Feat's, the complete navigation around an entire region. The first flights will most probably be robots showing without risk to human product can be delivered and traded between remote villages. Mars when populated by people might develop a celebrity culture, its own Amelia Earhart, they will need to maintain communication to the far away villages and tell their story back to Earth, Mars might have its own animal or human that journeys between villages, a story like Marco Polo an Italian merchant, explorer and writer from the Venice Republic who travels through Asia along the Silk Road. The Marco Polo of Mars might robotic and not even be a man as we know it the traveler might be a mix of cybernetic and organism. Just as the Japanese Company Honda worked on Prototype humanoid robot or China have GR-1 or the amazing Dogs from Boston Dynamics or Elon Musk now works on conceptual general-purpose robotic humanoid 'Optimus'. Some robots have been given 'personality' Sophia an artificial intelligence visual data processing and facial recognition concept, Ameca another robotic humanoid, the traveling person of Mars might be machine like, a Nuclear man, it might a mix of biological and machine. It is clear that many of mankinds early Circumnavigation feats and accomplishment of navigation, the feats of Nordic Viking Raiders, the maps by Greeks and Asian culture, journey with Submarine and Ship might not truly apply to Mars but instead this culture apply to water worlds like Europa or Titan, Magellan's Spanish expedition, Captain Cook, João da Gama, Willem Janszoon, Christopher Columbus but the mindset and drive and determination that helped them succeed might apply, many feats on Earth were done using Floatplane or Seaplanes. First feats will be done to circumnavigate the Martian globe and then spacecraft or cars or balloons will become easier to make and more reliable and cheaper. Mars might build something unique and innovative a mix of Wind power, Nuclear power and Aviation Rocket and Mechanical power, it might have a hybrid system until they innovate and figure out which system works best.
Mars would need a good weather forecast and good satellite weather mapping for safe navigation. I thought maybe far off villages would be connected by a Mars Glider, an Aircraft or maybe a Mars Gondola, maybe Breitling Rozière balloons, the Earth is a different example to Mars, it has a far greater atmosphere than Mars, on Earth the Pacific jet streams and Atlantic jet stream having influence on weather and travel. During WW2 Japan developed a against the United States, a new weapon made during World War II it consisted of a hydrogen-filled and 300 were found or observed in the U.S., Canada, and Mexico. In recent news media there was also the 2023 Chinese owned 'balloon incident'. Before true circumnavigation begins the people of Mars might take part Kite flying, wind socks or Sky Lantern festivals as they look to the sky. On Mars the InSight lander so far suggest steady winds from the north-west, the weather of Mars does have changes its atmosphere goes through thick and thin periods, it has frequent Duststorms. People will probably live inside the caves and Lava Tube on Mars, you might go up and down by ropeway or ballon or a stairway built, the pit craters that form from collapse of weak roof areas the evacuated lava tubes, located on the great Tharsis lava sheets, perhaps an aircraft or hopper would deliver supply of waters from Glaciers or the Poles into these Lava Tubes, Schiaparelli an impact crater, located near the planet's equator might be a good place to grow food, the Food items will then be transported to other towns / villages, the Polar regions will have their own difficulty temperatures of -80 Celsius or −112 F almost year-round, some suggest covering structure with Mars sand and soil and forgetting caves, simply pile regolith over your habs and you're shielded. The Martain Lowlands might be picked offering access to portable waters and oxygen. Some suggest building a Bio-dome or some kind of Biosphere farm inside an already existing Mars Crater and turn it into Village. The Valles Marineris might offer something different, both caves and access near glacier water at mid-latitude, some are worried it might have life and want to study the region first and talk of 'contamination protection'. If picking a crater also a a launch site you would have to think of future expansion and to allow mobile equipment to navigate into and out of the crater. There are many place where mankind might put villages, the USA, China and JPL-NASA seem to be the players for now with Space-X coming but whatever site is picked you will need transportation. In the future it is possible fringe ideas like space elevators become possible, stations are in orbit or Phobos and Deimos can provide part of the supply route.
The Viking Landers measured steady winds of ∼8 m/s or 26.2 feet [per second to the southeast, Mars winds do change and they have changed over thousands of years, Utopia Planitia shifted nearly 70° from northeast to northwest, recent dunes eroded by a shift in prevailing winds. When a more reliable system develops perhaps tourists would pick tickets to engage in Sky Yachting, Mars might have a type of Zeppelin or Dirigible or Blimp, these vechiles may take damage by way of lightning strikes. You still see videos of Balloons flying at events in the USA and festivals in Asia and Europe, there is the risk of static electricity building up and causing fires, the Balloon can transport without the need of aircraft forward momentum generating aerodynamic lift, the problem with Helium is it simply not abundant enough, the later Space Tourists which arrive on Mars might want a craft or Balloon with sleeping facilities, dining facilities and space to move around, they will need food and water which is why I would mostly have little machine robots not people doing most of the travel.
Far away villages on Mars might connect by SSTO concepts, there might be Rocket powered hoppers, village Farms might exchange food with the miner villages and Water-Ice village at the Poles, the Polar villages supply everyone with waters and the miners supply essintial Ores, Chemicals and Minerals. The first circumnativation feats might be more simple feats than traveling an entire planet, it might be a machine that can go all the way around from one side of Olympus Mons to the other, maybe an aircraft or Balloon would travel travel Valles Marineris, or a rocket ship hope from the bottom tot the top of Olympus Mons about 22 km (14 miles) or go all the way around the circumference 700 km (435 miles) some feats might be traveling smaller mountains, tunnels and cave systems, Ascraeus Mons, Tharsis Tholus, Mount Sharp, Anseris Mons, Nili Patera, the Mare or quadrangles on Mars, Pityusa Patera, Ulysses Tholusm or Elysium Mons, a celebrated feat might be simply traveling these large features. In the 1880s humans on Earth were making feats as the first people to circle the globe by bicycle, at the time a bicycle did not look like a bicycle but was a 'penny-farthing' or a 'high wheel', perhaps types of Mars Sledges and ski and sledging would be used in polar regions. In more hostile regions on Earth tracked vehicles are used in Antarctica, the South Pole has no official roads or ports but Antarctica does have roads and has 20 airports, but it is a place of science and there are no developed public-access ports or public facilities. The robot personality that travels these new Mars features might have its own celebrity cult as Japanese almost worship artificial video game characters or as people followed the art and music of an artificial Bubblegum music pop group 'The Archies' people might also interact in similar ways to these artificial human cyborg celebrity traveler, Mars might connect remote villages with an off-road vehicle made for both sand and ice, Mars might link people with a type of Snow Cruiser or a multi-purpose articulated tracked carrier for extreme condition. Masr might have a water festival celebration when it gets its delivery, the Robots might be required to top up a base and supply certain bases with 52,000 pounds or 23,587 Kg per year of fresh water, the reason I think Robots might first take up the first trade routes is because humans need a lot of stuff to stay alive, food air and a lot of drinkable water per day.
Visual exploration of the surface and locations link
the Valles Marineris, Chryse Planitia, Arsia Mons, Isidis Planitia, Olympus Mons, Noctis Labyrinthus
The greatest distances traveled off world are held by NASA JPL Opportunity Rover, 25.01 miles or 40.2 km of driving on another world, dethroning Soviet Union's Lunokhod 2 rover, which drove 24.2 miles or 38.9 km on the moon, a year ago it was reported Curiosity traveled 14.47 miles (23.29 kilometers). Sojourner in the 90s only traveled a few hundred feet, the China National Space Administration's (CNSA) Zhurong rover has probably been killed by 'Dust' on Mars, the manned Apollo Buggy could drive over 22 miles. a Mission of Europa exploration or Dragonfly planned spacecraft to Titan or new Car concepts going to the Moon might break these previous records. When villages are developed perhaps tourists might travel in a Gondola Aerostat, the high readings for atmospheric density on Mars are equal to the density found 35 km (22 mi) above the Earth ≈0.020 kg/m 3 there are measurement of 610 pascals (0.088 psi) (4.6 mm Hg) (0.0060 atm) or less than 1% of Earth at sea level, Mars also has readings of 1⁄160 of earth atmospheric pressure, average air pressure at the surface of the Earth is 1013.25 millibars, or about 14.7 pounds per square inch, 1 standard unit of Earth atmosphere (1,013.25 hPa), which is equivalent to 1,013.25 millibars. There are times traveling on Mars it could see seasonal variation in atmospheric density on Mars between summer (low density) and winter (higher density) and you might not be able to fly, in deep Impact Basins the air will be thicker, Atmospheric Terraforming might begin to make Air Travel easier.
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-08-23 04:25:09)
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Almost 70% of planet Earth is water so Mars almost has the same surface area of the Earth. I believe some of the early travel records and biggest navigation feats will be done by Robots, you do not need to feed or clothe a Robot or supply Air and Water. People on Earth set records for hundreds of thousands of km or miles, using a car or truck to cross multiple countries, none of these feats apply to Mars because on Earth people have comfortable temperature, a person can stop to get Gasoline or 'petrol', during a Race Rally they have mechanical teams to support them, they have access to food and water. Mars will have no roads linking its far away villages but might have a connect-the-dots of resupply villages offering a place to 'store' food and chemistry or maybe a Power plant to give power to one of the Robots. Some early train system might be a kind of lightly laid industrial railway, laid down first to connect far regions, not intended to be permanent but then a transport system upgraded into more modern, roads or tunnels or high speed train or ports, in New Zealand they called their simple systems "bush tramways" used to transport wood.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GLQIEzLPAU
On Mars it is possible a Robotic Train or Car might become one of the 'cargo vehicles' the Train or Car might collect supplies and then drive down to a site and park for a few months and supply food, oxygen and living space. As the seasons change another Robotic Train or Car might arrive from the other Polar Region and also supply, with supply routes switching between the North and South Pole during the 1.88 Earth years of time a colonist would expect to see changes in season. Cargo might be delivered by rocket instead of Balloon or Car, a trade in supply might move between the Moons and Asteroids and Mars, on Earth a Space X Dragon launch for example to the ISS has a launch mass of 10,200 Kg or 22,487 lbs. Mars would need to have its own home grown manufacturing facility to make craft and rockets to deliver cargo to other regions, Rail is probably the most cost effective way to travel. Part of the supply routes might not just be essential waters but other chemical material for Farms or 3D-Printed Habitats.
Japan used to have some of the most impressive longest high speed rail travel feats on Earth, today longest high-speed rail route is in China, 11 hours to travel more than 2700 km or 1677.7 miles on the quick service from the Beijing to Kunming, the longest rail is Trans-Siberian Railway, it connects European section Russia to the Russian Far East going to the city of Vladivostok, the Amtrak route in the USA offers travel with service between Chicago and Los Angeles, stopping in many stations in Texas, Illinois, Missouri, Arkansas, New Mexico, Arizona and California. The farthest distance traveling train outside China, there is a Train service from Amsterdam to Marseille, at 1,265 km 786 miles in 7 hrs, 15 mins, and the train journey Eurostar from London to Marseille, at 1,215 km or 754.9 miles in 6 hrs, 26 mins. Martian Circumnavigation feats might be done by an Award or Prize system, a London newspaper The Daily Mail offered a prize of £10,000 (£470,000 in 2023 or $ 598,357 US Dollars) to the aviator who shall first cross the Atlantic in an aeroplane in flight from any point in the United States of America, Canada or Newfoundland and any point in Great Britain or Ireland" in 72 continuous hours. In the Pacific Ocean James Warner radio operator on the aircraft Southern Cross piloted by Charles Kingsford Smith for the first trans-Pacific flight in 1928, during which radio was first used successfully, a contest might be set up on Mars and anyone achieving feats awarded in Millions of Euro or Us Dollars or the new 'Mars Currency'.
Some other topics
Quadracycles
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3986
'Suspension rail and aeriel trams'
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10460
world's first airline with electric-only aircraft
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8959
Tunnel Transportation on Earth, Mars or Luna
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9843
Planting an Ecosystem on Mars
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/planting-a … em-on-mars
Taming the brutal environment of Mars for future human explorers to survive and thrive there may demand a touch of “ecopoiesis” – the creation of an ecosystem able to support life
Antarctic Stations
https://www.nasa.gov/analogs/nsf
On the Space Station NASA got delivery of science, cargo and supplies from Northrop Grumman’s Cygnus, SpaceX’s Dragon, ESA's ATV, JAXA’s HTV, and the Russian Progress supply ship.
https://web.archive.org/web/20130417064 … es-cygnus/
Towards a Biomanufactory on Mars
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10 … 11550/full
Designing the bioproduction of Martian rocket propellant via a biotechnology-enabled in situ resource utilization strategy
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-26393-7
The water cycle in closed ecological systems: perspectives from the Biosphere 2 and Laboratory Biosphere systems
https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008c … N/abstract
Space-X Mars
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjjhEay-cyY
The challenge of managing water and nutrient cycles in a mini-world – the lessons from Biosphere 2
https://www.globalwaterforum.org/2020/0 … osphere-2/
To build settlements on Mars, we’ll need materials chemistry
https://cen.acs.org/articles/96/i1/buil … -need.html
Scientists explore ways to use martian soil to build habitats on the red planet
Space Agencies Track Two Explorers Across Antarctica to Prepare People for Mars
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180979220/
When Biosphere 2 Became a Grand Experiment in Self-Isolation
https://www.history.com/news/biosphere- … ship-earth
In the 1990s, eight adventurers spent two years separated from the rest of the world inside a futuristic greenhouse meant to mimic a spaceship—on Earth.
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-08-22 11:52:30)
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A rocket on a sub-orbital trajectory seems most promissing. Zubrin suggested a nuclear thermal rocket, heating CO2 propellant gathered from the Martian atmosphere. That avoids having to manufacture huge quantities of chemical bipropellants. It also alliws rapud, long distance travel with the minimum of infrastructure. We have examined aeroplanes on Mars before. The atmosphere is too thin to really make aerodynamic lift practical for large masses. To generate good lift, you need supersonic speeds, which would make landing dangerous.
But ground transportation is even less practical. For a long time to come, the population of Mars will be too low to build a network of roads, railways, cable cars, etc, covering continental distances. Such things might exist locally, over tens of km. But building a global road network will take a long time.
I am uncertain how practical it will be for ground vehicles to repeatedly cover distances of thousands of km on unimproved regolith. Will tires stand up to abrasive rocks over that sort of millage? Will dust get into moving parts and destroy them? The tires on Mars rovers were metal, I am unsure what type. They took a beating from abrasion and I remember one of the wheels on one of the rovers seizing up. That vehicle was designed to cover ten's km. To connect distant settlements across the pkanet, we would need vehicles capable of circumnavigating the planet - about 20,000km. It will be difficult to engineer ground vehicles that can do that.
Last edited by Calliban (2023-08-22 11:21:20)
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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It will be difficult to engineer ground vehicles that can do that.
Here is a discussion from 2003
'Tracks, or tires?'
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NASA and DARPA also announced the Nuclear Demonstration Rocket for Agile Cislunar Operations (DRACO) program giving Lockheed close to 500 million, it could be a Moon focused mission or relate to Mars tech so I'm not sure if it relates to Robert Zubrin's 'NIMF' or Nuclear Indigenous Martian Fuel.
I am not sure about roads, maybe they will develop from simple tracks, a path made by a Rover or maybe a human walked somewhere and it becomes a route.
McMurdo Station has unofficial roads and paths, perhaps the populations of Mars would need to be larger than South Pole stations before true roads are made. However Antarctica is not a region of expansion but more a region of study, its Treaty System protects the delicate wild life ecosystem living there.
Later when it is decided by colonists a Mars 'Boulder' is in the way it might be blasted which of course throws 'Dust' everywhere on a planet that seems to kill machines with its dust.
The Giant Rocks blown up to create a somewhat official road or path.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TF0dfyaZaFE
The South Pole
Remembering Antarctica’s nuclear past with ‘Nukey Poo’
https://theconversation.com/remembering … -poo-99934
Between 1961 and 1972 McMurdo Station was home to Antarctica’s first and only portable nuclear reactor, known as PM-3A, or “Nukey Poo.” The little-known story of Nukey Poo offers a useful lens through which to examine two ways of valuing the far south: as a place to develop, or a place to protect.
By the late 1950s nuclear power was viewed with optimism, as an exciting new solution to both the world’s energy and social problems. The Antarctic Treaty was signed in 1959, designating Antarctica as a place for international scientific cooperation. Both the USA and USSR were original signatories, and both were concerned about the possible use of nuclear weapons in the far south.
The Antarctic Treaty therefore included freedom of inspection of all facilities, and stipulated “any nuclear explosions in Antarctica and the disposal there of radioactive waste material shall be prohibited
Nuclear optimism fades
“Nukey Poo” began producing power for the McMurdo station in 1962, and was refuelled for the first time in 1964. A decade later, the optimism around the plant had faded. The 25-man team required to run the plant was expensive, while concerns over possible chloride stress corrosion emerged after the discovery of wet insulation during a routine inspection. Both costs and environmental impacts conspired to close the plant in September 1972.
This precipitated a major clean up that saw 12,000 tonnes of contaminated rock removed and shipped back to the USA through nuclear-free New Zealand. The clean up pre-dated Antarctica’s modern environmental protection regime by two decades, and required the development of new standards for soil contamination levels.
This elaborate process ensured that the US did not violate the Antarctic Treaty by disposing of nuclear waste on the continent. It also foreshadowed a shift in environmental attitudes away from development and use, towards protection; the removal of so much as one pebble from the Antarctic without requisite permits is now prohibited.
Today, all that physically remains at the site of the PM-3A reactor is a missing hillside and a plaque. Nuclear power is no longer viewed with the optimism of the 1960s, thanks to disasters such as Chernobyl and Fukushima.
The site where Nukey Poo once stood has been designated as a Historic Site and Monument under the Antarctic Treaty System, putting it in the same category as the huts of early explorers such as Mawson and Shackleton.
Production of Plastics, 3-D printer material Iron and Steel will be vital parts of a Mars economy. Not sure if related but again
'NASA seeks student ideas for extracting, forging metal on the Moon'
https://www.moondaily.com/reports/NASA_ … n_999.html
Supplies might be something simple like composting waste for feeding more crops, waters with soil. The sealed off world and Problems with concrete absorbing CO2 and badly designed soil ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7B39MLVeIc
Soil classification
https://web.archive.org/web/20190416143 … ilhome.htm
,
https://web.archive.org/web/20181128040 … 2p2_053580
,
If you arrive within 15 minutes of someone bleeding they may easily be saved, in terms of needed a sudden arrival of help from Doctor or Firefighter, a robotic Doctor in a Rocket or Robot Airplane might be the fastest way to transport 'Air medical service'. In Australia the Flying Doctor Service or Royal Flying Doctor Service made to provide of medical services to civilians in remote areas, the golden hour the period of time immediately after a traumatic injury if a flying service can arrive within 15 mins it could save injured in a Martian village. The Doctor or Nurse might be an AI robot providing service to many villages.
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-08-22 15:52:28)
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Dust and sharp rocks are going to be a big problem. We don't generally get a lot of ultra-fine dust on Earth because we have a hydrosphere. The dust is trapped in clays and converted to mudstone. But on Mars it has built up over eons and is as fine as cigarette smoke. The moon is even worse because it has never had an active hydrosphere. On both planets, that fine dust will get stirred up by any heavy moving vehicle and will end up getting into any exposed moving parts. The sharp rocks are going to cause a lot of wear on tires or even tracks. If you need to go a long way, the NIMF may turn out to be the only way, short of building some sort of stabilised rubble track that is free of dust.
Balloons may have some uses. But the Martian atmosphere has a density of only 0.013kg/m3 at datum sea level. So even a Hindenburg sized balloon full of hydrogen will lift only a few tonnes. But it may be a partial solution that allows you to ride the wind at least part of the way you need to go.
Last edited by Calliban (2023-08-22 15:52:37)
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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Scientists Build Humanoid Robot That Can Pilot A Plane
https://www.scihb.com/2023/08/scientist … -that.html
Balloon Development Challenges for Mars
https://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/adv_tech/ball … erview.htm
Ballooning in the Martian atmosphere is complicated by the fact that the Martian carbon dioxide atmosphere is very cold (200 K or -73 degrees C), and it is very thin at 0.006 bar, where 1 bar = 1 atmospheric surface pressure on Earth. In order to fly balloons at Mars, the balloons must be made of very lightweight material.
However, a number of balloon robots, or aerobots, have been proposed for Mars. One simple type is a helium balloon that carries a rope-like snake. During the day, the balloon would be heated by the sun and rise to some altitude above the Martian surface. At night, the balloon would cool, and land on the Martian surface when the landed snake reduces part of the effective mass of the balloon system. Although this type of balloon was proposed in the 1990's, it has never flown due to problems incurred during atmospheric inflation testing and due to fears that the snake might entangle, thus endangering the balloon.
Another type of balloon is a helium superpressure balloon that would fly at a nearly constant altitude for both day and night. The balloon's internal pressure would be higher during the day than at night, although the balloon volume would remain the same. This type of balloon has great potential for long duration flights, possibly several weeks, but a strong, lightweight, leak-proof material must first be developed and successfully tested in a system where the balloon inflates while falling through the Martian atmosphere.
A third type of Martian balloon is known as a solar Montgolfiere, or a solar-heated hot air balloon. This simple, lightweight balloon system shows great promise for long-duration balloon flights over Mar's polar regions during summer, as well as for soft-landing payloads on the Martian surface.
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Connecting Far Away island Bio-Domes and trade between artificial Biospheres.
Ingenuity Helicopter Makes 56th Flight On Mars, Covers 410 Meters In Latest Hop
https://www.republicworld.com/science/s … eshow.html
Boring Company is an American infrastructure and tunnel construction services company founded by Elon Musk. TBC was founded as a subsidiary of SpaceX in 2017, before being spun off as a separate corporation in 2018.
It does have both fans and critics.
Elon Musk’s Boring Company plan for a 69-station ‘Vegas Loop’ is anything but nice
https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/4/23711 … ion-tunnel
Rail transport in Brazil began in the 19th century, most railways in Brazil are for freight transportation or urban passenger transportation. The TAV or Trem de Alta Velocidade, is Brazil's first planned high-speed rail service. The first line is proposed to run between Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo.
A tourism view in Argentina?
'All aboard the slow train to Patagonia, a relic of a bygone era'
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/trav … -patagonia
Long-distance rail travel is dying out, but this journey through Argentina promises extraordinary views of remote landscapes.
There is hope that long-distance trains may make a comeback in Argentina, a country which had an extensive railroad network in the 20th century. One major route recently reopened between Buenos Aires and Mendoza, the third largest city in the nation, after 30 years out of service.
Still, save for a few tourist lines, Tren Patagónico is the only one remaining in Patagonia. As I wait on the platform in Viedma to take the train myself, a bell tolls and the locomotive lets out a sigh. The train sets off towards the setting sun, and soon the lonely landscape around us plunges into total darkness.
“The train changed everything around here,” says Poli Lefiu, a local rancher, at the station stop of Maquinchao. Born in a remote outpost on the range, Lefiu, the descendant of generations of Patagonian ranchers of Indigenous Tehuelche and Mapuche origins, is intimately familiar with this land. “When the train started to run, people came to sell to the passengers in Maquinchao and all of the small towns,” Lefiu says of the first decades of the 20th century.
The longest train journey in Australia is the Indian Pacific, which is 4,352km or 2704.2 miles from Sydney to Perth, Trans-Australian Railway, opened in 1917, runs from Port Augusta in South Australia to Kalgoorlie in Western Australia, crossing the Nullarbor Plain in the process. As the only rail freight corridor between Western Australia and the eastern states, the line is economically and strategically important. According to South Australian astronaut Andy Thomas, the line is identifiable from space because of its unnatural straightness: "It's a very fine line, it's like someone has drawn a very fine pencil line across the desert"
A Small Nuclear reactor might power a small village or town, RTG will provide power for the NASA rover for about 14 years, in the scifi future maybe a far future or near-ish future Cold-Fusion could solve energy needs but for now it seems to be an idea for science fiction.
The Mars Hopper: Long Range Mobile Platform Powered by Martian In-Situ Resources
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/studies/38 … resources/
With roads, and Biosphere and Space Colonisation soon cars like GM and Toyota might be on the Moon on Earth, the Toyota Land Cruiser 741,065 km (460,476 miles) and was achieved by Emil and Liliana Schmid (Switzerland) who travelled across 186 countries in the same Toyota Land Cruiser in a journey that started in 1984 and is still ongoing.
http://www.digid-rift.com/travel-emil-a … d-journey/
'There’s also and extraordinary amount of media interest in their voyage and as they visit each new country it seems the local media want an interview. The media page on their site is full of magazine and newspaper articles, as well as radio and the odd television interview.'
Mars will have far more hazards than a comfortable planet Earth, part of it is an unknown, space radiation, dust getting to all places, no comfortable atmosphere and super cold temperatures, the lack of air and water will be difficult. Mars however with an atmosphere and more stable near 24 hour day, welcomes mankind a lot more than the Earth's Moon.
On Saturn's Moon Titan, Part of the mission proposal was a balloon planned to circumnavigate Titan, a hot air balloon "Montgolfier" type.
https://web.archive.org/web/20081207170 … /index.php
Circumnavigation still dangerous on Earth, famous for making records as long-distance solo balloonist, as a sailor, and as a solo flight fixed-wing aircraft. He was friends with billionaire Richard Branson, whose Virgin Group sponsored some of Fossett's adventures. Scaled Composites Model 311 Virgin Atlantic GlobalFlyer an aircraft designed by Burt Rutan in which Steve Fossett making more records. Fossett disappeared in September 2007, while flying a light aircraft over the Great Basin Desert, between Nevada and California. Fossett's plane was discovered wrecked in 2008. NTSB declared the probable cause of the crash as "the pilot's inadvertent encounter with downdrafts that exceeded the climb capability of the airplane. Contributing to the accident were the downdrafts, high density altitude, and mountainous terrain."
https://web.archive.org/web/20160806162 … 277&akey=1
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-09-05 10:14:56)
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A hot air (CO2) balloon is a better idea than a gas filled balloon. The problem with using hydrogen or helium as lifting gases on Mars is the small size of the molecules. They woukd rapidly diffuse through the micron thin balloons that would be needed to maintain bouyancy in the thin Martian atmosphere. It wouldn't be long before all of the hydrogen leaked out. The CO2 molecule is large enough that it should remain trapped for longer, even in very thin gas envelopes.
Here on Earth, hot airships could have applications as well. Their envelopes could be filled with hot exhaust gases from their engines, which would be much hotter than surrounding air. A hot airship does not need flammable hydrogen or expensive helium. On Mars, flammability is a non-issue. But hydrogen would leak too quickly to be useful as lifting gas.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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For Calliban re #9 ...
I am intrigued by your support of the "hot air" idea for Mars.
Since the atmosphere there is so tenuous even at ground level, I'm wondering if there is any way to calculate the lift that might be achieved in this kind of device.
The envelope of the airship would need to be quite light weight, but perhaps there are materials that might be made locally to meet the need.
Graphene comes to mind as a possibility, if it can be fabricated in sufficient quantity to make the envelope for a Hinderburg sized vehicle.
Perhaps there are other materials that might be considered, but plastics necessarily require hydrogen in the molecular structure.
(th)
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For SpaceNut re #11
Thanks for the reminder of the Phobos landing concept!
Mars_B4_Moon has started a new line of thinking about the use of balloons on Mars, with his proposal that a hot "air" balloon might work on Mars. I am hoping Calliban (or someone else) will continue exploring that idea a bit, and (at least attempt) to work out the numbers that would permit that concept to succeed.
The density of the atmosphere on Mars is so low at ground level, that the mass budget available to the balloon designer is slim. Everything about the balloon would best be described as gossamer. Still, it might be practical, if the right materials can be made on site.
Calliban's suggestion that a hot "air" balloon might be moved by the (relatively light) winds of Mars seems plausible, since the surface of the balloon would surely be large and trying to move against the wind would be challenging. Cross-wind travel might be possible, if there were a ground track available to serve as an anchor, roughly comparable to the role of a keel in a sailboat, which allows cross-wind navigation on water.
(th)
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'What is that object floating over NW Oregon?'
https://www.koin.com/news/oregon/what-i … nw-oregon/
Near Space Corporation has been operating out of Tillamook since 1996 and according to their website, they are “a commercial provider of high altitude/near space platforms and flight services for government, academic and commercial customers.”
According to Tucker, the launch was for a NASA project and done in coordination with the Federal Aviation Administration.
While flying at 100,000 feet, the wind took the balloon east over Forest Grove and it is now headed back west. Tucker said they will recover the balloon today.
I would maybe like to go back to exploring ideas of different craft on Mars moving across different regions of Mars, we had discussion on Hot-Air travel Airship, Cars, Hovercraft, Trains and Helicopter and other Balloon Airships.
For Balloons or Airship any region with thin Air and high elevation is less useful as a Lacation, we can rule out Alba Patera, Elysium Mons, Solus Palnum, Olympus Mons, Tharsis Rise, Pavonis Mons and other highland areas.
An achievement might be first exploring Lowlands and linking them, Helas Planita, Valles Marineris, Argye Basin, Amazonis Planita, Utopia Basin, a little help might be need to connect Low Plains and Valley and Basin, some sort of digging or dynamite might be need like the creation of the Suez canal and Panama canal in order to remove high obstacles and keep the low land but higher pressure air currents in flow. Argyre Basin which is Low might need some help connecting with Valles Marineris or Acidalia Planitia. There might be use of other gas like hydrogen, a mix of Waters, Neon, Methane, Nitrogen and less CO2 as a 'Lift' but to fill it with lighter gas mix to give the vehicle extra buoyancy. We now have biological science and material science advances for 3-d printingt composite materials which can be usually far lighter and stronger, new high speed prop designs may also be used.
The ship might be a 'Hybrid' of other technologies it might have propeller features like a helicopter or Aircraft. The air inside might also be heated, CO2 is not efficient to lift, some sort of filter or breather gas mask contraption might be put on the Balloon to remove the heavier gas. There are also balloons designs flown at near-Mars conditions on our planet Earth, some use Solar power and balloons may have taken advantage of radiation absorption of solar energy to increase thermal activity inside the balloon envelope, and thus to increase lift and therefore altitude. Perhaps unwanted heavier gasses could vented from the tail to provide thrust and direction in the Mars Balloon Ariship. If a Robot AI Balloon Airship has trouble getting past the highlands it is possible it might fold itself up and instead be transported along a road or tunnel just as we also transport balloons by truck on planet Earth, the Balloon might fold and unfold itself like 'origami' or how JWST and the NASA JPL Rovers unfolded, it might have support features like a giant gossamer wing or tail and fins that unfold to help it fly better, summer will be a more difficult season for lifting a balloon with air thin (low density) and winter (higher density) but Summer also has advantages for Solar panel and Summer will have other benefits advantage of absorption of solar to heat a balloon and give it more lift.
It might be easier to fly in the Northern Lowlands but flying in low Southern regions, Argyre Basin and Hellas Planitia going back and forth between North and South might be difficult.To use a Robot as your pilot you do not have to bring supplies of clothing, food, oxygen, water etc
Mars as an entire land mass can be compared to Earth, ancient continents of Pangaea or Gondwanaland, although Earth is larger it has 70% water so the surface area of Mars is almost the same as Earth.
Valles Marineris the grand valley extends over 3,000 kilometers long, the Valleys are more than 4,000 km or 2,500 miles long, it is wider than the USA
Hellas Planitia is a diameter of 2,300 km or 1,400 miles, Australia is 4000km or 2485 miles from its West to East side
A Balloon Airship with Solar power features might land and sleep at night and take flight during the day.
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-09-13 08:41:40)
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NASA's Ingenuity helicopter soars past 100 minutes of total Mars flight time
https://www.space.com/nasa-ingenuity-ma … 00-minutes
Unusual U2 spy plane take off and landing procedure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7Y6-vpLbVQ
Airship ready: Canada should develop zeppelin technology for northern resource sect
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busines … rn-sector/
If we’ve been able to go decades without airships, why bring them back?
One attraction is their light carbon footprint, a huge advantage in a world striving for net zero. Generating very few emissions, they can fill the gap between sea cargo, which is slower, and air freight, which is more expensive.
But it’s the applications for remote communities and mining sites that are most tantalizing. In Canada’s North, just building a gravel road costs upward of $3-million a kilometre, and even more to maintain, especially in areas with melting permafrost. But exorbitant air freight costs make everything from building materials to vehicles to non-perishable foods unaffordable for many, while sea lift comes just once a year in many northern waters, and only for communities that are on the coast.
Imagine a world-class deposit of rare earths in Northern Quebec, hundreds of kilometres from tidewater. Getting a road permit requires consent from affected Indigenous communities, who might have concerns about the effects on caribou and other migratory species. Once that’s obtained, you need to raise hundreds of millions of dollars and take several years to build the road before a single ounce of ore is ever sold to market. Then you have to organize shipping from the nearest port through waters that are ice-choked or covered most of the year, while also accounting for consequences on marine mammals. Once the mine reaches its natural end of life, you then have to remediate, or clean up, the road at high cost.
These challenges illustrate why we have limited mining activity in Northern Canada, and what we do have is primarily high-value, low-weight diamonds, gold and silver. Airships offer the promise of harvesting more of the North’s critical minerals, at lower cost and less environmental impact than what the current options allow.
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Not so much a part of the British Empire
'Australia's Balloon Release Ban Aims to Curb Plastic Waste'
https://www.voanews.com/a/australia-aim … 50289.html
In South America a trade and transport route, Paso Internacional Los Libertadores, also called Cristo Redentor, is a mountain pass in the Andes between Argentina and Chile, the main transport route out of the Chilean capital city Santiago into Mendoza Province in Argentina.
With such religion names, maybe the Vatican will pay up?
In order to ease the dependence on the only tunnel in the area and to permit year-round crossing, two lower tunnels have been proposed. One of them is the Túnel Juan Pablo II ("John Paul II Tunnel"), which would be constructed at an altitude of between 2,250 and 2,720 m (7,382 and 8,924 ft), 20 km (12 mi) long, to join the towns of Horcones, Argentina and Juncal, Chile. Another proposed tunnel, named Paso Las Leñas ("Las Leñas Pass"), at an elevation of 2,050 m (6,726 ft) and 13 km (8 mi) of length, would connect El Sosneado in Argentina (near San Rafael) and Machalí, Chile. The Aconcagua Bi-Oceanic railway is a proposal for a 52-kilometre-long (32 mi) railway base tunnel under this pass.
the German speakers
Austria is Digging a Tunnel Like No Other
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZHBpgt7kYQ
Helicopters Could Map the Magnetic Fields on Mars
https://www.universetoday.com/163260/he … s-on-mars/
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-09-18 09:01:56)
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