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#1 2023-08-22 10:21:26

Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,772

Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

Mars will have villages and farms and processing facility, some of these villages could be very far apart in some very far away hard to reach places.

I can not find the topic for what I am about to post. Mars will need far away connections, once Mars has farms and a series of chemical processing centers it will need a very wide system of transport to link these villages and maybe also link them by peaceful exchanges and culture, interaction and communication.
I am looking for a topic about Traveling around the whole Planet, moving from the North Pole or South Pole to the Equator or moving across the Martian landscape. I found many fringe topics on ideas for Roads and Steel Architecture, Transport on Europa and Titan using Submarines, Ford's old idea for Nukemobiles, fringe almost scifi ideas for unknown locations in the planets of 'Alpha Centauri', there was discussion on China space tech, NASA flying and Helicopters, there was also a post about circumnavigation of the Moon in 2023 by SpaceX and Japanese Billionaire. It would be logical to assume with many people wanting many different locations as villages Mars will probably be very spread out transport, there must be a way to connect all regions as cheap as possible and it will truly be an unconquered frontier.  Some believe Rocket hoppers are the way something like an Apollo Lunar Module that manufactures its own propellant and then takes off like a rocket or hops to the next site, the Hopper could be robotic and not need a human command and service module (CSM) and only use machines and robotics instead of using resources to keep humans alive.

There have been so many options discussed for planetary wide transport systems. Some discussions wanted big subway system using the already existing Lava Tubes and Caves and Tunnels as living space and working space. Others said don't use underground but build a Route 66, an Orient Express or Trans-Siberian Railway or something like the Canadian transcontinental railway project. Many suggest over ground Train transport or Monorail and Maglev, people will be happier on the surface during travel and looking at the Sun. There are recent discussion a 'Steam Engine Open Cycle', series of Helicopters or Aircraft, a Nuclear powered Car, a series of Rover Buggy or Bikes or Trucks and Balloons and Gliders.

I think before successful villages are set up Mars must first have a Circumnavigation 'Feat's, the complete navigation around an entire region. The first flights will most probably be robots showing without risk to human product can be delivered and traded between remote villages. Mars when populated by people might develop a celebrity culture, its own Amelia Earhart, they will need to maintain communication to the far away villages and tell their story back to Earth, Mars might have its own animal or human that journeys between villages, a story like Marco Polo an Italian merchant, explorer and writer from the Venice Republic who travels through Asia along the Silk Road. The Marco Polo of Mars might robotic and not even be a man as we know it the traveler might be a mix of cybernetic and organism. Just as the Japanese Company Honda worked on Prototype humanoid robot or China have GR-1 or the amazing Dogs from Boston Dynamics or Elon Musk now works on conceptual general-purpose robotic humanoid 'Optimus'. Some robots have been given 'personality' Sophia an artificial intelligence visual data processing and facial recognition concept, Ameca another robotic humanoid, the traveling person of Mars might be machine like, a Nuclear man, it might a mix of biological and machine. It is clear that many of mankinds early Circumnavigation feats and accomplishment of navigation, the feats of Nordic Viking Raiders, the maps by Greeks and Asian culture, journey with Submarine and Ship might not truly apply to Mars but instead this culture apply to water worlds like Europa or Titan, Magellan's Spanish expedition, Captain Cook, João da Gama, Willem Janszoon, Christopher Columbus but the mindset and drive and determination that helped them succeed might apply, many feats on Earth were done using Floatplane or Seaplanes. First feats will be done to circumnavigate the Martian globe and then spacecraft or cars or balloons will become easier to make and more reliable and cheaper. Mars might build something unique and innovative a mix of Wind power, Nuclear power and Aviation Rocket and Mechanical power, it might have a hybrid system until they innovate and figure out which system works best.

Mars would need a good weather forecast and good satellite weather mapping for safe navigation. I thought maybe far off villages would be connected by a Mars Glider, an Aircraft or maybe a Mars Gondola, maybe Breitling Rozière balloons, the Earth is a different example to Mars, it has a far greater atmosphere than Mars, on Earth the Pacific jet streams and Atlantic jet stream having influence on weather and travel. During WW2 Japan developed a against the United States, a new weapon made during World War II it consisted of a hydrogen-filled and 300 were found or observed in the U.S., Canada, and Mexico. In recent news media there was also the 2023 Chinese owned 'balloon incident'. Before true circumnavigation begins the people of Mars might take part Kite flying, wind socks or Sky Lantern festivals as they look to the sky. On Mars the InSight lander so far suggest steady winds from the north-west, the weather of Mars does have changes its atmosphere goes through thick and thin periods, it has frequent Duststorms. People will probably live inside the caves and Lava Tube on Mars, you might go up and down by ropeway or ballon or a stairway built, the  pit craters that form from collapse of weak roof areas the evacuated lava tubes, located on the great Tharsis lava sheets, perhaps an aircraft or hopper would deliver supply of waters from Glaciers or the Poles into these Lava Tubes, Schiaparelli an impact crater, located near the planet's equator might be a good place to grow food, the Food items will then be transported to other towns / villages, the Polar regions will have their own difficulty temperatures of -80 Celsius or −112 F almost year-round, some suggest covering structure with Mars sand and soil and forgetting caves, simply pile regolith over your habs and you're shielded. The Martain Lowlands might be picked offering access to portable waters and oxygen. Some suggest building a Bio-dome or some kind of Biosphere farm inside an already existing Mars Crater and turn it into Village. The  Valles Marineris might offer something different, both caves and access near glacier water at mid-latitude, some are worried it might have life and want to study the region first and talk of 'contamination protection'. If picking a crater also a a launch site you would have to think of future expansion and to allow mobile equipment to navigate into and out of the crater. There are many place where mankind might put villages, the USA, China and JPL-NASA seem to be the players for now with Space-X coming but whatever site is picked you will need transportation. In the future it is possible fringe ideas like space elevators become possible, stations are in orbit or Phobos and Deimos can provide part of the supply route.

The Viking Landers measured steady winds of ∼8 m/s or 26.2 feet [per second to the southeast, Mars winds do change and they have changed over thousands of years, Utopia Planitia shifted nearly 70° from northeast to northwest, recent dunes eroded by a shift in prevailing winds. When a more reliable system develops perhaps tourists would pick tickets to engage in Sky Yachting, Mars might have a type of Zeppelin or Dirigible or Blimp, these vechiles may take damage by way of lightning strikes. You still see videos of Balloons flying at events in the USA and festivals in Asia and Europe, there is the risk of static electricity building up and causing fires, the Balloon can transport without the need of aircraft forward momentum generating aerodynamic lift, the problem with Helium is it simply not abundant enough, the later Space Tourists which arrive on Mars might want a craft or Balloon with sleeping facilities, dining facilities and space to move around, they will need food and water which is why I would mostly have little machine robots not people doing most of the travel.

Far away villages on Mars might connect by SSTO concepts, there might be Rocket powered hoppers, village Farms might exchange food with the miner villages and Water-Ice village at the Poles, the Polar villages supply everyone with waters and the miners supply essintial Ores, Chemicals and Minerals. The first circumnativation feats might be more simple feats than traveling an entire planet, it might be a machine that can go all the way around from one side of Olympus Mons to the other, maybe an aircraft or Balloon would travel travel Valles Marineris, or a rocket ship hope from the bottom tot the top of Olympus Mons about 22 km (14 miles) or go all the way around the circumference 700 km (435 miles) some feats might be traveling smaller mountains, tunnels and cave systems, Ascraeus Mons, Tharsis Tholus, Mount Sharp, Anseris Mons, Nili Patera, the Mare or quadrangles on Mars, Pityusa Patera, Ulysses Tholusm or Elysium Mons, a celebrated feat might be simply traveling these large features. In the 1880s humans on Earth were making feats as the first people to circle the globe by bicycle, at the time a bicycle did not look like a bicycle but was a 'penny-farthing' or a 'high wheel', perhaps types of Mars Sledges and ski and sledging would be used in polar regions. In more hostile regions on Earth tracked vehicles are used in Antarctica, the South Pole has no official roads or ports but Antarctica does have roads and has 20 airports, but it is a place of science and there are no developed public-access ports or public facilities. The robot personality that travels these new Mars features might have its own celebrity cult as Japanese almost worship artificial video game characters or as people followed the art and music of an artificial Bubblegum music pop group 'The Archies' people might also interact in similar ways to these artificial human cyborg celebrity traveler, Mars might connect remote villages with an off-road vehicle made for both sand and ice, Mars might link people with a type of Snow Cruiser or a multi-purpose articulated tracked carrier for extreme condition. Masr might have a water festival celebration when it gets its delivery, the Robots might be required to top up a base and supply certain bases with 52,000 pounds or 23,587 Kg per year of fresh water, the reason I think Robots might first take up the first trade routes is because humans need a lot of stuff to stay alive, food air and a lot of drinkable water per day.

Visual exploration of the surface and locations link

the Valles Marineris, Chryse Planitia,  Arsia Mons, Isidis Planitia, Olympus Mons,  Noctis Labyrinthus

The greatest distances traveled off world are held by NASA JPL Opportunity Rover, 25.01 miles or 40.2 km of driving on another world, dethroning Soviet Union's Lunokhod 2 rover, which drove 24.2 miles or 38.9 km on the moon, a year ago it was reported Curiosity traveled 14.47 miles (23.29 kilometers). Sojourner in the 90s only traveled a few hundred feet, the China National Space Administration's (CNSA) Zhurong rover has probably been killed by 'Dust' on Mars, the manned Apollo Buggy could drive over 22 miles. a Mission of Europa exploration or Dragonfly planned spacecraft to Titan or new Car concepts going to the Moon might break these previous records. When villages are developed perhaps tourists might travel in a Gondola Aerostat, the high readings for atmospheric density on Mars are equal to the density found 35 km (22 mi) above the Earth ≈0.020 kg/m 3 there are measurement of 610 pascals (0.088 psi) (4.6 mm Hg) (0.0060 atm) or less than 1% of Earth at sea level, Mars also has readings of 1⁄160 of earth atmospheric pressure, average air pressure at the surface of the Earth is 1013.25 millibars, or about 14.7 pounds per square inch, 1 standard unit of Earth atmosphere (1,013.25 hPa), which is equivalent to 1,013.25 millibars. There are times traveling on Mars it could see seasonal variation in atmospheric density on Mars between summer (low density) and winter (higher density) and you might not be able to fly, in deep Impact Basins the air will be thicker, Atmospheric Terraforming might begin to make Air Travel easier.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-11-28 07:00:31)


#2 2023-08-22 10:25:10

Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,772

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

Almost 70% of planet Earth is water so Mars almost has the same surface area of the Earth. I believe some of the early travel records and biggest navigation feats will be done by Robots, you do not need to feed or clothe a Robot or supply Air and Water. People on Earth set records for hundreds of thousands of km or miles, using a car or truck to cross multiple countries, none of these feats apply to Mars because on Earth people have comfortable temperature,  a person can stop to get Gasoline or 'petrol', during a Race Rally they have mechanical teams to support them, they have access to food and water. Mars will have no roads linking its far away villages but might have a connect-the-dots of resupply villages offering a place to 'store' food and chemistry or maybe a Power plant to give power to one of the Robots. Some early train system might be a kind of lightly laid industrial railway, laid down first to connect far regions, not intended to be permanent but then a transport system upgraded into more modern, roads or tunnels or high speed train or ports, in New Zealand they called their simple systems "bush tramways" used to transport wood.

On Mars it is possible a Robotic Train or Car might become one of the 'cargo vehicles' the Train or Car might collect supplies and then drive down to a site and park for a few months and supply food, oxygen and living space. As the seasons change another Robotic Train or Car might arrive from the other Polar Region and also supply, with supply routes switching between the North and South Pole during the 1.88 Earth years of time a colonist would expect to see changes in season. Cargo might be delivered by rocket instead of Balloon or Car, a trade in supply might move between the Moons and Asteroids and Mars, on Earth a Space X Dragon launch for example to the ISS has a launch mass of 10,200 Kg or 22,487 lbs. Mars would need to have its own home grown manufacturing facility to make craft and rockets to deliver cargo to other regions, Rail is probably the most cost effective way to travel. Part of the supply routes might not just be essential waters but other chemical material for Farms or 3D-Printed Habitats.

Japan used to have some of the most impressive longest high speed rail travel feats on Earth, today  longest high-speed rail route is in China, 11 hours to travel more than 2700 km or 1677.7 miles on the quick service from the Beijing to Kunming, the longest rail is  Trans-Siberian Railway, it connects European section Russia to the Russian Far East going to the city of Vladivostok, the Amtrak route in the USA offers travel with service between Chicago and Los Angeles, stopping in many stations in Texas, Illinois, Missouri, Arkansas, New Mexico, Arizona and California. The farthest distance traveling train outside China, there is a Train service from Amsterdam to Marseille, at 1,265 km 786 miles in 7 hrs, 15 mins, and the train journey Eurostar from London to Marseille, at 1,215 km or 754.9 miles in 6 hrs, 26 mins.  Martian Circumnavigation feats might be done by an Award or Prize system, a London newspaper The Daily Mail offered a prize of £10,000 (£470,000 in 2023 or $ 598,357 US Dollars)  to the aviator who shall first cross the Atlantic in an aeroplane in flight from any point in the United States of America, Canada or Newfoundland and any point in Great Britain or Ireland" in 72 continuous hours. In the Pacific Ocean  James Warner radio operator on the aircraft Southern Cross piloted by Charles Kingsford Smith for the first trans-Pacific flight in 1928, during which radio was first used successfully, a contest might be set up on Mars and anyone achieving feats awarded in Millions of Euro or Us Dollars or the new 'Mars Currency'.

Some other topics


'Suspension rail and aeriel trams'

world's first airline with electric-only aircraft

Tunnel Transportation on Earth, Mars or Luna

Planting an Ecosystem on Mars … em-on-mars

Taming the brutal environment of Mars for future human explorers to survive and thrive there may demand a touch of “ecopoiesis” – the creation of an ecosystem able to support life

Antarctic Stations

On the Space Station NASA got delivery of science, cargo and supplies from Northrop Grumman’s Cygnus, SpaceX’s Dragon, ESA's ATV, JAXA’s HTV, and the Russian Progress supply ship. … es-cygnus/

Towards a Biomanufactory on Mars … 11550/full

Designing the bioproduction of Martian rocket propellant via a biotechnology-enabled in situ resource utilization strategy

The water cycle in closed ecological systems: perspectives from the Biosphere 2 and Laboratory Biosphere systems … N/abstract

Space-X Mars

The challenge of managing water and nutrient cycles in a mini-world – the lessons from Biosphere 2 … osphere-2/

To build settlements on Mars, we’ll need materials chemistry … -need.html
Scientists explore ways to use martian soil to build habitats on the red planet

Space Agencies Track Two Explorers Across Antarctica to Prepare People for Mars … 180979220/

When Biosphere 2 Became a Grand Experiment in Self-Isolation … ship-earth
In the 1990s, eight adventurers spent two years separated from the rest of the world inside a futuristic greenhouse meant to mimic a spaceship—on Earth.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-08-22 11:52:30)


#3 2023-08-22 11:20:09

From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,542

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

A rocket on a sub-orbital trajectory seems most promissing.  Zubrin suggested a nuclear thermal rocket, heating CO2 propellant gathered from the Martian atmosphere.  That avoids having to manufacture huge quantities of chemical bipropellants.  It also alliws rapud, long distance travel with the minimum of infrastructure.  We have examined aeroplanes on Mars before.  The atmosphere is too thin to really make aerodynamic lift practical for large masses.  To generate good lift, you need supersonic speeds, which would make landing dangerous.

But ground transportation is even less practical.  For a long time to come, the population of Mars will be too low to build a network of roads, railways, cable cars, etc, covering continental distances.  Such things might exist locally, over tens of km.  But building a global road network will take a long time.

I am uncertain how practical it will be for ground vehicles to repeatedly cover distances of thousands of km on unimproved regolith.  Will tires stand up to abrasive rocks over that sort of millage? Will dust get into moving parts and destroy them?  The tires on Mars rovers were metal, I am unsure what type.  They took a beating from abrasion and I remember one of the wheels on one of the rovers seizing up.  That vehicle was designed to cover ten's km.  To connect distant settlements across the pkanet, we would need vehicles capable of circumnavigating the planet - about 20,000km.  It will be difficult to engineer ground vehicles that can do that.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-08-22 11:21:20)

"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."


#4 2023-08-22 11:42:14

Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,772

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

Calliban wrote:

It will be difficult to engineer ground vehicles that can do that.

Here is a discussion from 2003

'Tracks, or tires?'


#5 2023-08-22 15:23:33

Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,772

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

NASA and DARPA also announced the Nuclear Demonstration Rocket for Agile Cislunar Operations (DRACO) program giving Lockheed close to 500 million, it could be a Moon focused mission or relate to Mars tech so I'm not sure if it relates to Robert Zubrin's 'NIMF' or Nuclear Indigenous Martian Fuel.

I am not sure about roads, maybe they will develop from simple tracks, a path made by a Rover or maybe a human walked somewhere and it becomes a route.

McMurdo Station has unofficial roads and paths, perhaps the populations of Mars would need to be larger than South Pole stations before true roads are made. However Antarctica is not a region of expansion but more a region of study, its Treaty System protects the delicate wild life ecosystem living there.

Later when it is decided by colonists a Mars 'Boulder' is in the way it might be blasted which of course throws 'Dust' everywhere on a planet that seems to kill machines with its dust.

The Giant Rocks blown up to create a somewhat official road or path.

The South Pole

Remembering Antarctica’s nuclear past with ‘Nukey Poo’ … -poo-99934
Between 1961 and 1972 McMurdo Station was home to Antarctica’s first and only portable nuclear reactor, known as PM-3A, or “Nukey Poo.” The little-known story of Nukey Poo offers a useful lens through which to examine two ways of valuing the far south: as a place to develop, or a place to protect.

By the late 1950s nuclear power was viewed with optimism, as an exciting new solution to both the world’s energy and social problems. The Antarctic Treaty was signed in 1959, designating Antarctica as a place for international scientific cooperation. Both the USA and USSR were original signatories, and both were concerned about the possible use of nuclear weapons in the far south.

The Antarctic Treaty therefore included freedom of inspection of all facilities, and stipulated “any nuclear explosions in Antarctica and the disposal there of radioactive waste material shall be prohibited

Nuclear optimism fades

“Nukey Poo” began producing power for the McMurdo station in 1962, and was refuelled for the first time in 1964. A decade later, the optimism around the plant had faded. The 25-man team required to run the plant was expensive, while concerns over possible chloride stress corrosion emerged after the discovery of wet insulation during a routine inspection. Both costs and environmental impacts conspired to close the plant in September 1972.

This precipitated a major clean up that saw 12,000 tonnes of contaminated rock removed and shipped back to the USA through nuclear-free New Zealand. The clean up pre-dated Antarctica’s modern environmental protection regime by two decades, and required the development of new standards for soil contamination levels.

This elaborate process ensured that the US did not violate the Antarctic Treaty by disposing of nuclear waste on the continent. It also foreshadowed a shift in environmental attitudes away from development and use, towards protection; the removal of so much as one pebble from the Antarctic without requisite permits is now prohibited.

Today, all that physically remains at the site of the PM-3A reactor is a missing hillside and a plaque. Nuclear power is no longer viewed with the optimism of the 1960s, thanks to disasters such as Chernobyl and Fukushima.

The site where Nukey Poo once stood has been designated as a Historic Site and Monument under the Antarctic Treaty System, putting it in the same category as the huts of early explorers such as Mawson and Shackleton.

Production of Plastics, 3-D printer material Iron and Steel will be vital parts of a Mars economy. Not sure if related but again
'NASA seeks student ideas for extracting, forging metal on the Moon' … n_999.html

Supplies might be something simple like composting waste for feeding more crops, waters with soil. The sealed off world and Problems with concrete absorbing CO2 and badly designed soil ?

Soil classification … ilhome.htm

, … 2p2_053580

If you arrive within 15 minutes of someone bleeding they may easily be saved, in terms of needed a sudden arrival of help from Doctor or Firefighter, a robotic Doctor in a Rocket or Robot Airplane might be the fastest way to transport 'Air medical service'. In Australia the Flying Doctor Service or Royal Flying Doctor Service made to provide  of medical services to civilians in remote areas, the golden hour the period of time immediately after a traumatic injury if a flying service can arrive within 15 mins it could save injured in a Martian village. The Doctor or Nurse might be an AI robot providing service to many villages.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-08-22 15:52:28)


#6 2023-08-22 15:44:58

From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,542

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

Dust and sharp rocks are going to be a big problem.  We don't generally get a lot of ultra-fine dust on Earth because we have a hydrosphere.  The dust is trapped in clays and converted to mudstone.  But on Mars it has built up over eons and is as fine as cigarette smoke.  The moon is even worse because it has never had an active hydrosphere.  On both planets, that fine dust will get stirred up by any heavy moving vehicle and will end up getting into any exposed moving parts.  The sharp rocks are going to cause a lot of wear on tires or even tracks.  If you need to go a long way, the NIMF may turn out to be the only way, short of building some sort of stabilised rubble track that is free of dust.

Balloons may have some uses.  But the Martian atmosphere has a density of only 0.013kg/m3 at datum sea level.  So even a Hindenburg sized balloon full of hydrogen will lift only a few tonnes.  But it may be a partial solution that allows you to ride the wind at least part of the way you need to go.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-08-22 15:52:37)

"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."


#7 2023-08-29 14:44:47

Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,772

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

Scientists Build Humanoid Robot That Can Pilot A Plane … -that.html

Balloon Development Challenges for Mars … erview.htm
Ballooning in the Martian atmosphere is complicated by the fact that the Martian carbon dioxide atmosphere is very cold (200 K or -73 degrees C), and it is very thin at 0.006 bar, where 1 bar = 1 atmospheric surface pressure on Earth. In order to fly balloons at Mars, the balloons must be made of very lightweight material.

However, a number of balloon robots, or aerobots, have been proposed for Mars. One simple type is a helium balloon that carries a rope-like snake. During the day, the balloon would be heated by the sun and rise to some altitude above the Martian surface. At night, the balloon would cool, and land on the Martian surface when the landed snake reduces part of the effective mass of the balloon system. Although this type of balloon was proposed in the 1990's, it has never flown due to problems incurred during atmospheric inflation testing and due to fears that the snake might entangle, thus endangering the balloon.

Another type of balloon is a helium superpressure balloon that would fly at a nearly constant altitude for both day and night. The balloon's internal pressure would be higher during the day than at night, although the balloon volume would remain the same. This type of balloon has great potential for long duration flights, possibly several weeks, but a strong, lightweight, leak-proof material must first be developed and successfully tested in a system where the balloon inflates while falling through the Martian atmosphere.

A third type of Martian balloon is known as a solar Montgolfiere, or a solar-heated hot air balloon. This simple, lightweight balloon system shows great promise for long-duration balloon flights over Mar's polar regions during summer, as well as for soft-landing payloads on the Martian surface.


#8 2023-09-05 10:06:15

Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,772

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

Connecting Far Away island Bio-Domes and trade between artificial Biospheres.

Ingenuity Helicopter Makes 56th Flight On Mars, Covers 410 Meters In Latest Hop … eshow.html

Boring Company is an American infrastructure and tunnel construction services company founded by Elon Musk. TBC was founded as a subsidiary of SpaceX in 2017, before being spun off as a separate corporation in 2018.

It does have both fans and critics.

Elon Musk’s Boring Company plan for a 69-station ‘Vegas Loop’ is anything but nice … ion-tunnel

Rail transport in Brazil began in the 19th century, most railways in Brazil are for freight transportation or urban passenger transportation. The TAV or Trem de Alta Velocidade,  is Brazil's first planned high-speed rail service. The first line is proposed to run between Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo.

A tourism view in Argentina?

'All aboard the slow train to Patagonia, a relic of a bygone era' … -patagonia
Long-distance rail travel is dying out, but this journey through Argentina promises extraordinary views of remote landscapes.

There is hope that long-distance trains may make a comeback in Argentina, a country which had an extensive railroad network in the 20th century. One major route recently reopened between Buenos Aires and Mendoza, the third largest city in the nation, after 30 years out of service.

Still, save for a few tourist lines, Tren Patagónico is the only one remaining in Patagonia. As I wait on the platform in Viedma to take the train myself, a bell tolls and the locomotive lets out a sigh. The train sets off towards the setting sun, and soon the lonely landscape around us plunges into total darkness.

“The train changed everything around here,” says Poli Lefiu, a local rancher, at the station stop of Maquinchao. Born in a remote outpost on the range, Lefiu, the descendant of generations of Patagonian ranchers of Indigenous Tehuelche and Mapuche origins, is intimately familiar with this land. “When the train started to run, people came to sell to the passengers in Maquinchao and all of the small towns,” Lefiu says of the first decades of the 20th century.

The longest train journey in Australia is the Indian Pacific, which is 4,352km or 2704.2 miles from Sydney to Perth, Trans-Australian Railway, opened in 1917, runs from Port Augusta in South Australia to Kalgoorlie in Western Australia, crossing the Nullarbor Plain in the process. As the only rail freight corridor between Western Australia and the eastern states, the line is economically and strategically important. According to South Australian astronaut Andy Thomas, the line is identifiable from space because of its unnatural straightness: "It's a very fine line, it's like someone has drawn a very fine pencil line across the desert"

A Small Nuclear reactor might power a small village or town, RTG will provide power for the NASA rover for about 14 years, in the scifi future maybe a far future or near-ish future Cold-Fusion could solve energy needs but for now it seems to be an idea for science fiction.

The Mars Hopper: Long Range Mobile Platform Powered by Martian In-Situ Resources … resources/

With roads, and Biosphere and Space Colonisation soon cars like GM and Toyota might be on the Moon on Earth, the Toyota Land Cruiser 741,065 km (460,476 miles) and was achieved by Emil and Liliana Schmid (Switzerland) who travelled across 186 countries in the same Toyota Land Cruiser in a journey that started in 1984 and is still ongoing. … d-journey/
'There’s also and extraordinary amount of media interest in their voyage and as they visit each new country it seems the local media want an interview. The media page on their site is full of magazine and newspaper articles, as well as radio and the odd television interview.'

Mars will have far more hazards than a comfortable planet Earth, part of it is an unknown, space radiation, dust getting to all places, no comfortable atmosphere and super cold temperatures, the lack of air and water will be difficult. Mars however with an atmosphere and more stable near 24 hour day, welcomes mankind a lot more than the Earth's Moon.

On Saturn's Moon Titan, Part of the mission proposal was a balloon planned to circumnavigate Titan, a hot air balloon "Montgolfier" type. … /index.php

Circumnavigation still dangerous on Earth, famous for making records as long-distance solo balloonist, as a sailor, and as a solo flight fixed-wing aircraft. He was friends with billionaire Richard Branson, whose Virgin Group sponsored some of Fossett's adventures. Scaled Composites Model 311 Virgin Atlantic GlobalFlyer an aircraft designed by Burt Rutan in which Steve Fossett making more records. Fossett disappeared in September 2007, while flying a light aircraft over the Great Basin Desert, between Nevada and California. Fossett's plane was discovered wrecked in 2008. NTSB declared the probable cause of the crash as "the pilot's inadvertent encounter with downdrafts that exceeded the climb capability of the airplane. Contributing to the accident were the downdrafts, high density altitude, and mountainous terrain." … 277&akey=1

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-09-05 10:14:56)


#9 2023-09-05 19:20:22

From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,542

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

A hot air (CO2) balloon is a better idea than a gas filled balloon.  The problem with using hydrogen or helium as lifting gases on Mars is the small size of the molecules.  They woukd rapidly diffuse through the micron thin balloons that would be needed to maintain bouyancy in the thin Martian atmosphere.  It wouldn't be long before all of the hydrogen leaked out.  The CO2 molecule is large enough that it should remain trapped for longer, even in very thin gas envelopes.

Here on Earth, hot airships could have applications as well.  Their envelopes could be filled with hot exhaust gases from their engines, which would be much hotter than surrounding air.  A hot airship does not need flammable hydrogen or expensive helium.  On Mars, flammability is a non-issue.  But hydrogen would leak too quickly to be useful as lifting gas.

"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."


#10 2023-09-05 20:20:17

Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,892

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

For Calliban re #9 ...

I am intrigued by your support of the "hot air" idea for Mars.

Since the atmosphere there is so tenuous even at ground level, I'm wondering if there is any way to calculate the lift that might be achieved in this kind of device.

The envelope of the airship would need to be quite light weight, but perhaps there are materials that might be made locally to meet the need.

Graphene comes to mind as a possibility, if it can be fabricated in sufficient quantity to make the envelope for a Hinderburg sized vehicle.

Perhaps there are other materials that might be considered, but plastics necessarily require hydrogen in the molecular structure.



#11 2023-09-05 20:56:18

From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,204

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages


#12 2023-09-06 06:09:11

Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,892

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

For SpaceNut re #11

Thanks for the reminder of the Phobos landing concept!

Mars_B4_Moon has started a new line of thinking about the use of balloons on Mars, with his proposal that a hot "air" balloon might work on Mars.  I am hoping Calliban (or someone else) will continue exploring that idea a bit, and (at least attempt) to work out the numbers that would permit that concept to succeed.

The density of the atmosphere on Mars is so low at ground level, that the mass budget available to the balloon designer is slim.  Everything about the balloon would best be described as gossamer.  Still, it might be practical, if the right materials can be made on site.

Calliban's suggestion that a hot "air" balloon might be moved by the (relatively light) winds of Mars seems plausible, since the surface of the balloon would surely be large and trying to move against the wind would be challenging.  Cross-wind travel might be possible, if there were a ground track available to serve as an anchor, roughly comparable to the role of a keel in a sailboat, which allows cross-wind navigation on water.



#13 2023-09-13 08:28:29

Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,772

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

'What is that object floating over NW Oregon?' … nw-oregon/

Near Space Corporation has been operating out of Tillamook since 1996 and according to their website, they are “a commercial provider of high altitude/near space platforms and flight services for government, academic and commercial customers.”

According to Tucker, the launch was for a NASA project and done in coordination with the Federal Aviation Administration.

While flying at 100,000 feet, the wind took the balloon east over Forest Grove and it is now headed back west. Tucker said they will recover the balloon today.

I would maybe like to go back to exploring ideas of different craft on Mars moving across different regions of Mars, we had discussion on Hot-Air travel Airship, Cars, Hovercraft, Trains and Helicopter and other Balloon Airships.

For Balloons or Airship any region with thin Air and high elevation is less useful as a Lacation, we can rule out Alba Patera, Elysium Mons, Solus Palnum, Olympus Mons, Tharsis Rise, Pavonis Mons and other highland areas.

An achievement might be first exploring Lowlands and linking them, Helas Planita, Valles Marineris, Argye Basin, Amazonis Planita, Utopia Basin,  a little help might be need to connect Low Plains and Valley and Basin, some sort of digging or dynamite might be need like the creation of the Suez canal and Panama canal in order to remove high obstacles and keep the low land but higher pressure air currents in flow. Argyre Basin which is Low might need some help connecting with Valles Marineris or Acidalia Planitia. There might be use of other gas like hydrogen, a  mix of Waters, Neon, Methane, Nitrogen and less CO2 as a 'Lift' but to fill it with lighter gas mix to give the vehicle extra buoyancy. We now have biological science and material science advances for 3-d printingt composite materials which can be usually far lighter and stronger, new high speed prop designs may also be used.

The ship might be a 'Hybrid' of other technologies it might have propeller features like a helicopter or Aircraft. The air inside might also be heated, CO2 is not efficient to lift, some sort of filter or breather gas mask contraption might be put on the Balloon to remove the heavier gas. There are also balloons designs flown at near-Mars conditions on our planet Earth, some use Solar power and balloons may have taken advantage of radiation absorption of solar energy to increase thermal activity inside the balloon envelope, and thus to increase lift and therefore altitude.  Perhaps unwanted heavier gasses could vented from the tail to provide thrust and direction in the Mars Balloon Ariship. If a Robot AI Balloon Airship has trouble getting past the highlands it is possible it might fold itself up and instead be transported along a road or tunnel just as we also transport balloons by truck on planet Earth, the Balloon might fold and unfold itself like 'origami' or how JWST and the NASA JPL Rovers unfolded, it might have support features like a giant gossamer wing or tail and fins that unfold to help it fly better, summer will be a more difficult season for lifting a balloon with air thin (low density) and winter (higher density) but Summer also has advantages for Solar panel and  Summer will have other benefits advantage of absorption of solar to heat a balloon and give it more lift.

It might be easier to fly in the Northern Lowlands but flying in low Southern regions, Argyre Basin and Hellas Planitia going back and forth between North and South might be difficult.To use a Robot as your pilot you do not have to bring supplies of clothing, food, oxygen, water etc

Mars as an entire land mass can be compared to Earth, ancient continents of Pangaea or Gondwanaland, although Earth is larger it has 70% water so the surface area of Mars is almost the same as Earth.
Valles Marineris the grand valley extends over 3,000 kilometers long, the Valleys are more than 4,000 km or 2,500 miles long, it is wider than the USA
Hellas Planitia is a diameter of 2,300 km or 1,400 miles, Australia is  4000km or 2485 miles from its West to East side

A Balloon Airship with Solar power features might land and sleep at night and take flight during the day.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-09-13 08:41:40)


#14 2023-09-16 17:44:48

Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,772

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

NASA's Ingenuity helicopter soars past 100 minutes of total Mars flight time … 00-minutes

Unusual U2 spy plane take off and landing procedure

Airship ready: Canada should develop zeppelin technology for northern resource sect … rn-sector/

If we’ve been able to go decades without airships, why bring them back?

One attraction is their light carbon footprint, a huge advantage in a world striving for net zero. Generating very few emissions, they can fill the gap between sea cargo, which is slower, and air freight, which is more expensive.

But it’s the applications for remote communities and mining sites that are most tantalizing. In Canada’s North, just building a gravel road costs upward of $3-million a kilometre, and even more to maintain, especially in areas with melting permafrost. But exorbitant air freight costs make everything from building materials to vehicles to non-perishable foods unaffordable for many, while sea lift comes just once a year in many northern waters, and only for communities that are on the coast.

Imagine a world-class deposit of rare earths in Northern Quebec, hundreds of kilometres from tidewater. Getting a road permit requires consent from affected Indigenous communities, who might have concerns about the effects on caribou and other migratory species. Once that’s obtained, you need to raise hundreds of millions of dollars and take several years to build the road before a single ounce of ore is ever sold to market. Then you have to organize shipping from the nearest port through waters that are ice-choked or covered most of the year, while also accounting for consequences on marine mammals. Once the mine reaches its natural end of life, you then have to remediate, or clean up, the road at high cost.

These challenges illustrate why we have limited mining activity in Northern Canada, and what we do have is primarily high-value, low-weight diamonds, gold and silver. Airships offer the promise of harvesting more of the North’s critical minerals, at lower cost and less environmental impact than what the current options allow.


#15 2023-09-18 08:50:42

Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,772

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

Not so much a part of the British Empire

'Australia's Balloon Release Ban Aims to Curb Plastic Waste' … 50289.html

In South America a trade and transport route, Paso Internacional Los Libertadores, also called Cristo Redentor, is a mountain pass in the Andes between Argentina and Chile, the main transport route out of the Chilean capital city Santiago into Mendoza Province in Argentina.

With such religion names, maybe the Vatican will pay up?

In order to ease the dependence on the only tunnel in the area and to permit year-round crossing, two lower tunnels have been proposed. One of them is the Túnel Juan Pablo II ("John Paul II Tunnel"), which would be constructed at an altitude of between 2,250 and 2,720 m (7,382 and 8,924 ft), 20 km (12 mi) long, to join the towns of Horcones, Argentina and Juncal, Chile. Another proposed tunnel, named Paso Las Leñas ("Las Leñas Pass"), at an elevation of 2,050 m (6,726 ft) and 13 km (8 mi) of length, would connect El Sosneado in Argentina (near San Rafael) and Machalí, Chile. The Aconcagua Bi-Oceanic railway is a proposal for a 52-kilometre-long (32 mi) railway base tunnel under this pass.

the German speakers

Austria is Digging a Tunnel Like No Other

Helicopters Could Map the Magnetic Fields on Mars … s-on-mars/

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-09-18 09:01:56)


#16 2023-09-27 06:32:30

Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,772

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

Could a Balloon Airship on Mars carry an X-Plane type Glider design to a far away location to save on fuel?

Balloons that launch other aircraft or helicopters, aircraft launched from trains? On Earth the floatplane design is a type of seaplane with one or more slender floats mounted under the fuselage to provide buoyancy while a flying boat uses its fuselage for buoyancy, when there is no airport available a Float plane can be put on a Trailer of a fast Truck the Truck drives and high speed giving the Floatplane enough lift for take off, perhaps a system could be used with trains bringing a plane on Mars to its destination, maybe the robotic aircraft would self assemble or the glider wings would unfold. Helicopters might arrive by Balloon and scout. Instead of setting up runways to remote locations It might be easier to get as close to the location as possible to save on fuel and to have your Robotic Glider Aircraft Piggyback on some sort of Rail for Towing Launches.

These are some links from the 'Hot Air' thread and studies done by NASA and other groups to high altitude conditions which might be similar to conditions on Mars

'MicroStrat A Cross-Continental High Altitude Balloon Mission for Astrobiology Research' … ntext=ahac

Eclipse Balloons to Study Effect of Mars-Like Environment on Life … bout-mars/

with humans on Mars like the South Pole products will be bought and product traded

'The Logistics of Living in Antarctica'
'A Tour of a Bush Alaska Village'
'Villa Las Estrellas: An Actual Town in Antarctica'
In Antarctica, a town that thrives despite the shivers

In Las Estrellas town, the snow and glacial wind doesn't keep its 64 inhabitants from having a bank, a school and occasional visitors

I figure and data given by user Calliban wrote something like the Hindenburg would only lift a figure of 2,600kg (2.6 tonnes) on Mars. 

in other news

Ingenuity Mars Helicopter Sets Altitude Record in Latest Flight … est-flight

Even with long term terraform projects Mars won't have many Lakes.
1931, Popular Science … ss&pg=PA38

'Ingenuity Mars Helicopter breaks groundspeed record during 60th flight' … 0th-flight

If flight and long navigation routes for trade and travel on Mars gets figured out. Why not a Balloon ship that would launch more scout Helicopters like Ingenuity or small Mars-Planes? For other offworld exploartion perhaps a lander or hopper that would deploy small sub robots or robotic small ships for Titan or Europa.

An old Soviet idea in the atmosphere of Earth
Aviamatka (Airborne mothership)

Lockheed CL-1201 a design study for a giant transport aircraft in the late 1960s. One envisioned use of the concept was as an airborne aircraft carrier.

Zveno an old WW2 Russian project an invasion "Flight" a Flying Aircraft Carrier, it was a parasite aircraft developed in the Soviet Union during the 1930s.

Historic Wind Tunnel Facility Testing NASA's Mars Ascent Vehicle Rocket … le-rocket/

Train concepts, 600km/h maglev train, China completed low-speed dynamic testing of a 600km/h prototype maglev car in Shanghai … lev-train/

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-09-27 07:13:30)


#17 2023-09-27 06:44:32

Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,772

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

Could This Become the First Mars Airplane? … plane.html

"The aircraft would be part of the ballast that would be ejected from the aeroshell that takes the Mars rover to the planet," Bowers said." It would be able to deploy and fly in the Martian atmosphere and glide down and land. The Prandtl-m could overfly some of the proposed landing sites for a future astronaut mission and send back to Earth very detailed high resolution photographic map images that could tell scientists about the suitability of those landing sites."

Because the Prandtl-m could ride in a CubeSat as ballast aboard the aeroshell/Mars rover piggyback stack going to Mars in 2022-2024, the additional weight would not add to the mission's cost, he said. Once in the Martian atmosphere, the Prandtl-m would emerge from its host, deploy and begin its mission

"It would have a flight time of right around 10 minutes. The aircraft would be gliding for the last 2,000 feet to the surface of Mars and have a range of about 20 miles," Bowers said.

"The actual aircraft's wingspan when it is deployed would measure 24 inches and weigh less than a pound," Bowers said. "With Mars gravity 38 percent of what it is on Earth, that actually allows us up to 2.6 pounds and the vehicle will still weigh only 1 pound on Mars. It will be made of composite material, either fiberglass or carbon fiber. We believe this particular design could best recover from the unusual conditions of an ejection."

Relocation Programs also some income by tourism during the Summer Months. 24 hour darkness - Canada's Northernmost Town

Territory of Alaska or Alaska Territory was an organized incorporated territory of the United States until Alaska was granted statehood in 1959. Mars might also have so few residents for internal economic activity and foreign trade. Miners make it Resource rich and not many people the Large Alaska State bigger than many countries.

Low Mars Orbit & Methods for Orbital & Sub-Orbital transportation LMO

Hoppers across Mars with Traditional Rocketry which evolves on Earth as what is done on Planet Earth. On planet Earth we have Falcon 9, NASA's SLS, Ariane, the Soyuz and lots of other ideas from China, Japan, India, South Korea. Musk is the only one with a Private Sector reusable rocket that can be used multiple times to launch a payload into space but lots of other players are catching up. Traditional Rocket planes might be used to move and hop from one Mars of Mars to another.

A type of Space gun or Railgun for hardened instruments, no humans, the Verne Gun or  Pariser Kanonen Paris-Geschütz is restricted to freight, fuel or rugged satellites, this could allow trade between Mars and other Domes on the offworlds or Asteroids and Moon colonies, a Railgun could be used for sub orbital flight.  A train to orbit might be place inside an already existing tunnel or Lava tube which would be part of a living underground colony but also shield humans from radiation.

Space Elevators are mostly a fantasy scifi sitution on Earth but it might work on the Moons of Mars or in Geosynch Orbit of  Fast-Rotating Asteroid Worlds, once the Elevator gets working it will open up the Lagrange points, M1 and the save fuel when traveling to communication satellites at the Martian trojans, a high altitude spaceplane might rendezvous with some kind of tether.

An entirely organic homegrown rocket from self sustaining organic colony Rocket perhaps with robot helpers builds organic In situ farmed rocket, everything is made and 3-d printed, oils, Methane, Oxygen and other promising fuels all coursed from a Biosphere farm on Mars. You might even grow 'Wooden Satellites'as crazy as it sounds in space Biofuels are used, maybe even chemical or the Martian Dust Rockets, mines can help make a type of pure metals thermite reaction, the home gorwn organic rocketplane would hop from one region on Mars to another.

Nuclear Thermal Rocket, NASA might soon be testing Nuclear power in Space, Nuclear Reactors in Space and Space-Tugs. With Lower Gravity it might be possible on Mars for NTR to take off from there.

A spinning accelerator. Some type of Mars Spin Launch system to launch Mars material out of the gravity well, it could be rotating vehicle inside a cylinder that looks like Evel Knievel circus stunt or maybe a type of spinning centrifuge on top of Mount Olympus or Linear accelerators proposed for Mars.

This one will be controversial because there is much debate if a 'Balloon' would work on Mars but

Perhaps one day Air-Launch would work on Mars, a high altitude two-stage orbital launch vehicle, maybe a type of Airship or Plane and an air-launched anti-satellite multistage missile. A larger Mars X-plane or Balloon Hybrid Glider might one day  lift and add speed to a smaller rocket giving the smaller craft an altitude and range boost, while saving it the weight of the fuel and equipment needed to take off on its own. A parasite missile aircraft Spaceplane would be launched from another Air-Vessel, on Earth parasite aircraft have been tested by the British, Soviets and US Navy, other ColdWar experiments included the United States Army Air Forces FICON project McDonnell XF-85 Goblin.

and the mixes of cultures and religion?

Santa María Reina de la Paz (St. Mary Queen of Peace) is a Catholic chapel that attracts people from all over King George Island.  Villa Las Estrellas  Spanish for The Stars Village or Hamlet of the Stars a permanently inhabited outpost on King George Island within the Chilean Antarctic claim, the Chilean Antarctic Territory, and also within the Argentine and British Antarctic claims.  There is a small hostel named Estrella Polar capable of holding a maximum occupancy of 20 guests. … fault.aspx

Why The Nuclear-Powered Ford Nucleon Is The Most Extreme Concept Car Ever … ncept-car/
Ford's incredible 1958 Nucleon concept was their vision of a nuclear-powered future that never turned up, thanks to multiple mechanical reasons

Nuclear Powered Trains; And Why They've Never Been Made

Curious Droid social media channel - Nuclear powered Planes, Trains and Automobiles

Size Limits On Earth

'The Nuclear Powered Flying Aircraft Attack Carrier - Never Built CL-1201'

Pressure Cycles on Mars … s-on-mars/

The overall increase in pressure between Sol 31 and Sol 93 is the signature of the entire Martian atmosphere growing in mass as we move into springtime in the southern hemisphere. This happens because the south pole receives more and more sunlight, and carbon dioxide vaporizes off of the winter south polar cap. Each year the atmosphere grows and shrinks by about 30 percent due to this effect. The curves also show a strong daily variation in pressure of around 10 percent, with a peak near 7 a.m. on Mars and a minimum near 4 p.m. This daily cycle in pressure is caused by a "thermal tide," a global-scale pressure wave in Mars' atmosphere driven by sunlight heating the ground and air.

On Mars lower point in the Hellas Impact Crater is 8,200 meters (26,902 feet) below the Mars surface.

Balloon Flights

Comparing Record-Breaking Jumps: Felix Baumgartner and Alan Eustace

On Earth Balloons fly above Aircraft, and Aircraft fly above Helicopter I believe this will also apply to Mars even if NASA JPL say Ingenuity (helicopter) is made of 'special material' I still believe a type of Airship Balloon can fly higher and lift a greater payload, on Earth an impressive lifting helicopter can lift 10+ maybe over 20 tons, the Aircraft lifts more, the Boeing 747 has a capacity of 660 passengers, while the A380 can carry up to 853 people, the Hindenberg could lift 72-passenger capacity with food and water and 160 tons of freight and mail, it would carry somewhere between 10-15 tons of freight long distance. If you make a Balloon or Airship for Mars it could be best to fly in the Winter and down South on Mars, if I remember correctly you can compare the size of Olympus Mons to France or Poland and Hellas Crater to Australia. On Earth we had Balloons with Flight in measurements of 0.7 kPa  = 700 pascals. The atmosphere of Mars changes with the seasons and some regions are lower and deeper than others, Hellas Crater is the deeper crater to test your Airship or Balloon on Mars a depth of 7,152 m (23,465 ft) below the topography of Mars, the atmospheric pressure at the bottom of the crater is 12.4 mbar  or 1240 Pa or 0.18 psi during Winter. The Radiation dose will be comparable to a high altitude Balloon flight in Earth's Stratosphere ~36 km, an AI Robot can pilot instead of a Man on Earth Space begins at 100 Km or 328,084 feet the Japanese believe they can reach 60 km on Earth the Balloon will save them money they would normally spend on rockets, they have reached 176,000 ft by a JAXA Balloon.

Quoting from the other thread

use of superpressure balloon with its potential for long- duration mission of up to 90 days. … 058137.pdf

Martian Combustion-Powered Fixed-Wing UAVs: An Introductory Investigation and Analysis … d_Analysis

The atmosphere of Mars as observed by InSight

Mars atmospheric pressure, temperature, and density as functions of the altitude relative to the areoid. … _330210450

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-09-27 15:49:06)


#18 2023-09-27 07:17:28

Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,892

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

For Mars_B4_Moon ....

This is not intended as a criticism, but as an observation ...

Your persistence in imaging balloons on Mars is admirable.

It reminds me of Louis, as an example of courage to hold onto an idea or vision despite the sticks and stones that may appear from time to time.

I understand and recognize that math is not necessarily a skill set for a linguist/poet/artist type person.

And I don't know if you are any of those things.

However, for your vision to work in the Real Universe, the balloon manufacturer needs to overcome one simple rule, as offered by GW Johnson...

The lift provided by the gas inside the balloon must be greater than the weight of the envelope and associated equipment comprising the structure of the device.

I appreciate your finding the work that Calliban did a while back, to attempt to estimate the amount of payload that might be lifted by a vehicle the size of the Hindenburg on Mars.  I'm hoping Calliban will take another look at that estimate, in light of the observation by GW Johnson that NO balloon of any kind will be able to lift itself on Mars, because no material known to humans at this point is light enough and strong enough and resistant to pounding by hydrogen or helium molecules to serve as an envelope, let alone the hardware needed to provide attachment for payload.

This is NOT to say that such a material may not be found.  I think that 2 dimensional arrays of Carbon atoms are a possibility.  However, at this point, it seems to me that no one has actually implemented that material to hold hydrogen or helium molecules, let alone make a full balloon envelope.

What are the 2 dimensional forms of carbon?
The elusive two-dimensional form of carbon is named graphene, and, ironically, it is probably the best-studied carbon allotrope theoretically. Graphene – planar, hexagonal arrangements of carbon atoms (Fig. 1) – is the starting point for all calculations on graphite, carbon nanotubes, and fullerenes.

Review Graphene: carbon in two dimensions - › science › article › pii



#19 2023-09-27 07:45:06

Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,772

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

Robots now doing Yoga

Tesla shows off humanoid Optimus robot in spine-tingling new video … 7e298d45d3

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Mars_B4_Moon ....

Your persistence in imaging balloons on Mars is admirable.


If you do not mind I will quote your words from another similar discussion
As you admit yourself Balloon technology is under-invested and maybe there will be break through

from the 'Hot Air' discussion

tahanson43206 wrote:

what appear to be examples of balloons flown at near-Mars conditions on Earth, and it appears that some of those balloons may have taken advantage of solar energy to increase thermal activity inside the balloon envelope, and thus to increase lift and therefore altitude.  It would be helpful to be able to see numbers that must have been acquired from measuring devices in those balloons.


maybe a type of Hybrid system will work

Perhaps a lot of study and investment will go into Balloon tech after the 'Chinese Event'

I have optimism humans will continue to solve scientific issues, there was a time when people thought mankind would never fly, they thought the Wright Brothers Mad and Crazy when news paper headlines came out They Wouldn't Believe crazy news articles 'The Wrights Had Flown' and then another more modern time when people thought it impossible to fly anything on Mars by Balloon or Wing or helicopter rotor system

53.7 km 176,000 ft … s0913e.htm

The single-capped balloon was manufactured by JAXA using a ultra thin film of new design that measured only 2.8 micrometers thick

The balloon that broke the record had a volume of 80.000 m3 and was launched as mission BS13-08

According to the JAXA press release, these balloons will become an excellent tool to transport lightweight payloads to such heights and thus they could be a low-cost alternative to expensive weather rockets like the model MT-135 currently in use to explore the portion of the atmosphere below 60 km.

0.7 kPa  = 700 pascals

Mars pressure variation or bad readings, the Mariner 4's flyby confirmed that the Martian atmosphere is constituted mostly of carbon dioxide and surface pressure is about 400 to 700 Pa, other readings since have shown average surface pressure is only about 610 pascals (0.088 psi) which is less than 1% of the Earth's value but it may change by 30%

The standard Earth atmosphere unit symbol atm is a unit of pressure defined as 101,325 Pa (1,013.25 hPa), which is equivalent to 1,013.25 millibars, 760 mm Hg, 29.9212 inches Hg, or 14.696 psi. The atm unit is roughly equivalent to the mean sea-level atmospheric pressure on Earth; that is, the Earth's atmospheric pressure at sea level is approximately 1 atm.

'Perlan 2 glider 76,000 feet world altitude record flight into the stratosphere'

and just to have some numbers in your heads on altitudes on Earth for reference Mount Everest 29,000+ feet, 
Aircraft can fly over Everest but usually don't because of bad weather, turbulence, helicopters might go above this with some special made French helicopter in near perfect conditions but the engines will also risk flame out,
Hot Air Balloons inside India are starting to reach 70,000 ft
the Lockheed Martin SR-71 would go above 85,000 ft
McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom 98,557 ft
NASA Helios Solar Powered craft can fly much higher than Everest at 96,000 ft
high altitude Aircraft for example Soviet Migs can reach 120,000 ft
Alan Eustace broke Felix Baumgartner's record now at 135,000 + ft
176,000 ft by a JAXA Balloon is much higher

Also to keep the Balloon flying you would try stay in the Lowlands anything at mins 4 km or minus 2.5 miles to 8 km minus elevation or 5 miles minus elevation.
At the rims of the Argyre Basin or Hellas Basin the Balloon Airship or high Altitude Balloon might be landed put on a traintrack and then moved by rail into the Northern Lowland region. This train or rail project would be massive project, almost spanning the USA or across Australia.
The Balloon does not need to fly in the 'Martian Highlands' or elevated plateaus but it does need to be able to fly in the Basin Impact Craters, Vallis or valles  and Low Lands,  Syrtis Major with Jezero crater is at higher elevation than Isidis Planitia and the Lowland Utopia Planitia of the Viking 2 mission, there are no measurement from the ground in the Valles or Hellas Basin but the air would be much denser in these deeper regions, much of Hellas is 7,152 m below or 23,465 ft below the standard topography elevation of Mars, perhaps some type of Glider Aircraft could also be used.

but to avoid the high thin air you remain in the Lowland Crater areas


Could you connect Valles Marineris and Hellas to the Lowland?

VTOL landing already famous by fighter aircraft McDonnell Douglas BAE Boeing Harrier and Lockheed F-35 planes at altitudes of 50,000 ft 15,000 m

MacCready Gossamer Condor

'manpowered aircraft' … condor.htm

maybe for now the 'Train' is an easier idea
For Biosphere villages a high-speed railway connecting the respective base and Biodomes

that does not stop Japanese from thinking big with its designs

Japan’s Bullet train to the moon and Mars: Researchers plan living facilities in space … 13084.html
The space train would travel between the Earth, the moon, and Mars

Real-life testing on Earth, 6 times larger than a hot-air Balloon

testing an ESA module

An Oregon space balloon could reveal the secrets to successful Mars landings | Oregon Field Guide
Oregon Public Broadcasting

they still needed an old fashioned ATV to get the payload

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-10-01 14:18:51)


#20 2023-09-27 08:40:42

Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,892

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

For Mars_B4_Moon .... thanks for your continued interest in and support of the idea of lighter-than-air navigation on Mars.

Your citation of the Japanese experiment with an envelope whose wall thickness is only 2.8 micrometers thick certainly indicates that a balloon can actually be made that survives manufacture, assembly, transport and inflation at that thickness.

In any case, your interest in this idea inspired me to revise the Balloon Topic, and to invite our more knowledgeable members to contribute.

There would appear to be at least a possibility that "soap bubbles" made of ultra-thin non-evaporating film might survive for a period of time on Mars, if they were not asked to do anything more than lift themselves and look amazing.

In that context, your vision may indeed come to pass. 



#21 2023-09-27 16:04:23

Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,772

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

China, Prototype of lunar surface mobile system for ILRS.

A typical reading on Mars 0.7 kPa  or maybe 600-700 pascals, atmospheric pressure in the crater a much higher reading, perhaps is 12.4 mbar  or 1240 Pa or 0.18 psi during Winter. .

Brian Cox On Mars' he thinks a little out of the box sometimes, an English physicist,  former musician also a professor of particle physics

maybe the dried out Marianas Trench of Mars with some waters inside
Hellas Impact Crater

if you take Mt Everest and flip it 5.49 miles or 8.8 Km or 29,000 feet it will fit into the Crater

perhaps where the first Balloon Airship Flights will take place

Squiggles in Hellas Planitia … s-planitia

'Deepest Spot On Mars - Hellas Planitia'

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-09-27 16:15:11)


#22 2023-10-01 08:31:58

Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,772

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

Designing subways, between visual identity and authorial expressions … sions.html
From Paris to Shanghai to New York, we explore 11 major metro networks where architecture enables the transition from non-places of circulation to iconic and highly charged infrastructural landmarks.

Imagine the wasting when creating such tunnels on Earth, 40 miles maybe 60 km sometimes as much as 75 miles or 121 km of tunnels left behind

If only Mars had such economic abandoned waste as potential resource?

Abandoned Ghost Stations on Earth filmed by Urban Exploration and groups that find Dereliction Sites, in France place of neglect and dilapidated

they sometimes make movies in Disused part of the London Underground Network

Madrid Spain, the Train Tunnel now a history museum?

Chamberí: The Ghost Station That Came Back To Life

a strange little building which leads to an old metro station that was closed and abandoned more than 50 years ago

Lower Bay Station is Toronto's abandoned subway platform

Cleveland's Abandoned "Subway"

Abandoned Old Subway Terminal & Tunnel Under Los Angeles

Forgotten Tunnels Under Chicago

and in Ballooon Travel, the Crater or huge Basin Deep than Everest on Mars seems a choice to live.

Honeycomb-Textured Landforms in Northwestern Hellas Planitia … -planitia/

Banded Terrain in Hellas Planitia … s-planitia

1240 Pa or 0.0124 bar is still a large gap between the pressure of Everest
30 kPa, 0.3 bar

On Mars you can find a site perhaps the reading is 12.4 mbar

From Earth a Balloon at 100,000 ft or 30,480 m is 10.9 mbar

but Japan is flying at 176,000 ft or 33.3 miles or 53.6 km many times above Mt Everest 8.848 km or 5.4979 miles

So if we can fly a type of Airship Hybrid Balloon or high Altitude Balloon on the Plain or Basin of Hellas Planitia are there any other Locations on Mars you might fly a Balloon?

an interesting email in the public

Posted By: John Christie, Faculty, Dept. of Chemistry,
Area of science: Earth Sciences … .Es.r.html

Please excuse a slightly less than authoritative answer from a mad Chemist/Earth Scientist. Our
astronomers seem to have ducked this one.

On Earth, the pressure of the atmosphere falls off quite quickly with increasing height. Roughly
speaking, for every 17 kilometres, the atmospheric pressure falls by a factor of 10.

Most of this fall-off is accounted for by the barometer equation, which relates the pressure at
height z to the surface pressure: p(z)=p(0) * exp(-Mgz/RT). -- See, for example, Laidler & Meiser,
Physical Chemistry, 3rd Ed., p. 28. This behaviour is modified in the Earth's atmosphere by
turbulence, and by temperature variation.

On Mars, the average molar mass of the atmosphere (M) is about 1.5 times that of the Earth. The
surface gravitational acceleration (g) is about 40% of Earth gravity, and the kelvin temperature (T)
about 75% of that on Earth. So we would expect the rate of pressure fall-off to be about 80% of
that on Earth. That means that on Mars, atmospheric pressure is likely to fall by a factor of 10 only
every 21 kilometres.

The surface atmospheric pressure on Mars is about 1/150 of an Earth atmosphere. If the canyon
were 21 kilometres deep (which it probably isn't) it might have a pressure up to 1/15 of an Earth
atmosphere at the floor, which just might be enough to be interesting. That is the good news!

The bad news is this: If the floor of your canyon were indeed warm compared to the ambient
temperature on the Martian surface, then we would have colder air overlying warmer air, which is a
mechanically unstable situation. The warmer air would rise, causing great atmospheric turbulence,
and evening out the pressure distribution. It would also tend to dissipate the heat. (It is this very
reason that accounts for the turbulent and stormy atmospheric conditions on Earth, Mars, Jupiter,
and Neptune)

There are only two reasons why a canyon floor on Mars might plausibly be particularly warm. One
is that it might absorb and trap a lot of solar energy. For a deep canyon this seems unlikely. The
other is the possibility of geothermal energy (Marsothermal energy?). But the indications are that
although at one time there was a lot of volcanic activity that helped shape the surface of Mars, it is
presently quite geothermally incative.

Here is the bottom line: Mars as a whole has an atmosphere, though not much of one. In this
sense the floor of the Valles Marineris would certainly have an atmosphere, and probably a very
slightly thicker and warmer one. But it is most unlikely, almost impossible, that its pressure or
composition or temperature could be interestingly different from that of the rest of the planet. If it
were warmer, it could not be more than a little thicker; it could be quite a bit thicker, but only if it
were even colder in the canyon than on the rest of the surface.

The Section on the atmosphere of Mars in R.P. Wayne, Chemistry of Atmospheres, 3rd Edition, is
reasonably accessible, and well worth checking out. I will not give you an exact page reference,
because I only have the 2nd (1991) Edition on my bookshelf, and that is now badly out-of-date.

2018 article … -and-away/
Japan’s space agency, JAXA, launching high-altitude balloons in our unique Alice Springs facility in Australia

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-10-01 09:13:54)


#23 2023-10-01 13:20:00

Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,772

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

Politics on Earth and tracks

Toronto’s endlessly delayed Eglinton Crosstown transit line shows what happens when no one is accountable … hows-what/

On Mars the Airship Balloon port will require less infrastructure, no long runways they have VTOL capability many glider plane designs
and unlike suborbital transport rockets, their failures can less explosive spectacular and damaging port or nearby colonies.

JP Aero Space

Tandem class of airships  Remotely controlled from the ground, the all-volunteer group's Tandem twin-balloon airship reportedly ascended to an altitude of 95,085 feet (28,982 meters).

Another highest Airship feat flying in similar analogue atmosphere as Ingenuity

Mars Farms creating Bio-Fuel for a Hopper Rocketship?

Startup bluShift Aerospace launches its 1st commercial biofuel rocket from Maine … uel-rocket

Stardust 1.0: Launch of first commercial launch of biofuel rocket

The Balloon or Aircraft idea

Offsetting disadvantage of the very very thin air, the composition of Mars air, mostly consisting of carbon dioxide (CO2), is denser per unit of volume than Earth air, and gravity on Mars is less than 40% of Earth's.

The NASA ERAST HALE UAV Program … av_15.html

The Perseus-B was damaged in a rough landing in 1996, but returned to service with the wingspan stretched from 17.9 meters (58 feet 9 inches) to 21.7 meters (71 feet), flying at an altitude of over 18.3 kilometers (60,000 feet) in 1998. The Perseus-B was then further modified, with avionics and engine improvements and external fuel tanks, though it was damaged again in another hard landing in late 1999

Scaled Composite pilots also set a payload-to-altitude record in the Proteus in 2000, wearing pressure suits borrowed from NASA as a precaution against decompression at high altitude. They reached an altitude of about 19 kilometers (63,000 feet), an impressive testimonial to the aircraft's capabilities. … av_15.html

NASA Mini-Sniffers were a series of unmanned aerial vehicles designed to sample the air at high altitude


'Inflatable wing design' … 4-1373.pdf

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-10-03 13:28:46)


#24 2023-10-09 15:15:18

Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,772

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

Prototype of lunar surface mobile system for ILRS. … 9449348453

They will lead a Moon mission and build their own Cars or Hoppers or Rovers?

Has China turned away from Russia in joint race to the moon? … -race-moon
Senior Chinese space scientist’s presentation at global astronautical congress in Baku leaves out Russian role in joint lunar research mission

Regarding Flight on Mars a number of people in Spaceflight and Aerospace say the Balloon will work

Web questions
Perhaps Mark Adler?  an American software engineer known for his work in the field of data compression as the author of the Adler-32 checksum function,  earned his Ph.D. in physics from the California Institute of Technology also the Spirit Cruise Mission Manager for the Mars Exploration Rover mission. … rk-on-mars

Yes, a helium balloon can certainly work on Mars. There have been many studies at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory and NASA's Wallops Flight Facility that show feasible mission designs. Solar-heated Montgolfier balloons may provide more lift for the same total system mass, but have very large altitude variations, usually touching down at night. A super-pressure helium balloon provides much better stability for long-duration missions. Both such systems are discussed in this paper. (Side note: a system to keep Helium in the liquid state would very likely be more mass than just high-pressure tanks to hold the same amount of compressed Helium.)

        Why would you want to recompress the Helium?

        Using a balloon for terminal descent purely to avoid a parachute and rockets would be mass inefficient. You need a very large balloon for a small payload mass. However it has been proposed for very small payloads. (See above paper.)

        A balloon on Mars is useful for payloads that want to be above the surface but not very far, and then want mobility across the surface. What is really needed is a mission that needs a balloon, not a balloon that needs a mission. One common example is a magnetometer mission to map magnetic fields. Since the magnetic fields drop as a high power of radius, the sensitivity is much greater at balloon altitudes than at orbital altitudes.

John Vistica -  Leviathan Explorations? Provided Nuclear Safety oversight, Submarine Officer, Chemical Engineer. Aerospace Consulting. … ted-2016#1

the Balloon will float at 6.5 km and Traverse the Majority of Mars Landscapes

Mercedes-Maybach Is Back in the Blimp Business … n-flights/
Lighter-than-air craft will take passengers to 100,000 feet, then float gently back down.

'Balloon company plans to carry tourists on a long trip to space, or close enough to it' … ugh-to-it/

NASA Scientific Balloons Take to the Sky in New Mexico … ew-mexico/

. The balloon and payload ascended to an altitude of nearly 128,000 feet, in which science objectives were met, and both were successfully recovered.

Lift off! NASA's Super Pressure Balloon Takes Flight … -new-nasa/

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-10-09 15:24:23)


#25 2023-10-30 06:25:09

Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,772

Re: Circumnavigate, 22 person Biospherians & ports for small villages

NASA's Scientific Balloon Program … ton=recent

Trans Siberian Rail transport, a Russian Empire and Soviet railway system that connects European Russia to the Russian Far East. Spanning a length of over 9,289 kilometers (5,772 miles)

Almost over one hundred and 20 years old

The world's longest railway was completed on 21 July 1904. … an-railway

The project was officially announced by Tsar Alexander III in 1891 and the key figure was Count Sergei Witte, a Georgian of Dutch descent who had worked his way up by way of the railways.

The original train with its marble-tiled bathrooms, a grand piano in the music room, a library and a gym, as well as caviar and sturgeon in the first-class dining room, proceeded at a stately 20mph or so and took nearly four weeks for the journey. The third-class carriages with their cargoes of peasants were crammed and uncomfortable, and there were frequent delays because the line had been built too quickly. Passengers needed to develop a certain fatalistic patience and today the Lonely Planet guide compares the experience to ‘being on a sea voyage or having a beach holiday indoors’.


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