Balloon or dirigible for Mars "hot air" or gas filled

tahanson43206 · 2023-09-06 06:41:41

In another topic, Mars_B4_Moon suggested it might be possible to deploy a hot "air" balloon on Mars.

Calliban then provided support for the idea.

This topic is available if anyone would like to follow through with numbers.

Update 2023/09/27 (th) The title was revised slightly, to include gas lift as an option. Mars_B4_Moon has provided additional encouragement / inspiration for study of this topic. No balloon has flown on Mars as of 2023, but no helicopter had flown on Mars until NASA did just that. Perhaps there is a solution to the challenge of design of a balloon that can lift it's own weight on Mars. This topic is available for posts about ideas/discoveries/concepts, or perhaps actual achievements.

The atmosphere of Mars is comparable to the atmosphere of Earth at a very high altitude.

I asked Google "what altitude on Earth is comparable to atmosphere of Mars at the surface" .... it came back with:

Conclusion. The surface pressure on Mars is equivalent to the range of pressures on Earth at altitudes between ~30 km and ~60 km. That seems like pretty thin atmosphere.
Oct 6, 2012
Earth Altitude with Equivalent Pressure to Mars | Math Encounters Blog
www.mathscinotes.com › 2012/10 › earth-altitude-with-equivalent-pressure...
About Featured Snippets

Then I asked Google what is the greatest altitude achieved by a hot air balloon on Earth?

Hot-air balloons On November 26, 2005, Vijaypat Singhania set the world altitude record for highest hot-air-balloon flight, reaching 21,290 m (69,850 ft).
Flight altitude record - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Flight_altitude_record
About Featured Snippets

21,290 meters is 21.29 kilometers, which is well below the altitude of interest for a Mars hot "air" balloon.

I hope that someone in the forum is up for the challenge of designing a hot "air" balloon that would work on Mars.

Hydrogen is (apparently) up to the job, but it will be hard to contain inside materials that might be fabricated on Mars.

Hot Hydrogen might be the ticket, if a way can be found to enclose it.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-09-06 06:52:41

As a follow up:

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/wo … ber%202005.

Dr Vijaypat Singhania (India) achieved the altitude record of 21,027 m (68,986 ft) in a Cameron Z-1600 hot-air balloon over Mumbai, India on 26 November 2005.

Here is a YouTube video about the flight ... the equipment looks pretty standard...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cdg7qq4Nd4

There would appear to be an opportunity for the record to be surpassed using materials of lighter weight. Thermal energy might be supplied externally, such as with solar radiation, but other heating sources might be needed.

Here is text from the YouTube page:

22,957 views Oct 6, 2015
26 November 2005: Dr. Vijaypat Singhania, businessman, aviator, sports enthusiast and adventurer had a dream: Challenging the ultimate and flying 70.000 feet up, close to the edge of space, where there is almost no oxygen - at the age of 67 years! After a five hour flight he landed between Shirdi and Nashik on the outskirts of Mumbai having reached 68.986 feet (around 21.000m) and set a new World Record in Altitude in Ballooning (Class A). Great day for aviation and a great day for India!

The capsule carrying the pilot was enclosed. The balloon itself appears to have been made in England. It is described as 10 times as large as a normal hot air balloon.

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-09-06 13:17:01

Tahanson, I think this is a neglected area of science because maybe we as humans felt we had moved on from balloons. I believe Felix Baumgartner jumped and survived from 24 miles; 39km above New Mexico, however jumping out of a balloon and flying one around the world or new planet are totally different feats. In order to save weight and not risk human life I believe one of my suggestions and other people's discussion was to use an unmanned robot balloon or robot aircraft to deliver supplies, the AI robot might use power / fuel more efficiently. After the Chinese Balloon event it was found many other balloon type objects might also be cross the USA at 55 thousand feet or 16.76 km or 10.4 miles. The Mars atmosphere has seasonal changes sometimes more dust or changes from North and South, it has changes of Winter and Summer of the carbon dioxide ice caps, summer (low density) and winter (higher density) . We almost take it as an annoyance if a ship or craft on Earth is delayed at a port but Mars travel might an almost impossible task most times of the year and be like the early feats of aviation like the Montgolfier brothers putting the first animals in a Balloon, the Wright brothers, Louis Blériot crossing the English Channel, the first transpacific flight US to Australia all of these early feats were weather dependent, Mars flights might also need favorable weather forecasts. On Earth people launched weather balloons to check the skies, satellites were few and it was a time before everyone had phones and GPS in your car. In the past a balloon was sent up high and measured wind speed, humidity, air pressure and wind direction, the balloon would 'pop' and maybe an instrument package guided by mini-parachute back to Earth, people sometimes got paid a small reward to find the transmitter and science instrument which would have been recycled and put into the next balloon. Perhaps on Mars with a Cold Water, CO2, watery ices base at the Poles and a Warmer 'Farming' base near the equator some might decide its ok to allow these first Martain balloons to also 'pop', an indestructible Blackbox capsule crate would allow Water product to survive and land delivery of water from the Poles, the Farming base might recycle the tube Blackbox and use it to deliver food or seeds or medicines to the Polar regions. It would require planning and stocking up warehouse and logistics. Maybe each time a Robot would retrieve the product inside the capsule Black Box crate rather than risk a human, on Mars there might be only certain times a drone delivery Balloon can fly until people on Mars innovate and improve on the designs given to them by Earthlings. Canadian Amateur radio experiments fly at heights reaching 36.01 km or 22.4 miles.

NASA's Big 60 is not a thick balloon it is 0.0004 inches wide or 0.01016 milimeter, the plastic film covering the balloon is a little less than the thickness of kitchen plastic wrap. There have been many threads about setting up Chemical production and Ores and Plastic centers and Industrial Plan for Mars If a manufacturing base or power station or chemistry center or Farms can be set up on Mars you will have the ability to set up a hydrocrabon, plastic manufacturing industry on Mars without depending on delivery of material from Earth, there will also be huge economic advantage on Mars to recycling, retrieval of robot pilots and reuse of parts. Perhaps in a future there would be colonies on the Ice Giant Moons and Gas Giants of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune, a product like 'Helium' delivered to Mars or other items traded across the solar system. The Mars heated lifting gas has a density lower than normal Martian atmospheric gases and rises above them. Perhaps in a future the next balloons will not 'pop' but rise and fall, balloon cable drawn back into a smaller package as the volume of internal atmosphere is exhausted the balloons driven by AI robots learn to fly and rise and land by themselves.

Here is a 2004 article

'Exploring Mars With Balloons'

https://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-balloon-04a.html

Guided balloon platforms would carry high-resolution cameras and other instruments to study the atmosphere and surface of Mars. The extended range of guided balloons can provide opportunities for highly adaptive observations during science missions. Just like rovers, if an interesting site is found, a guided balloon platform can be commanded to observe it.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-09-06 13:20:06)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-09-06 13:43:42

Found this doing a search on Ingenuity Mars Helicopter

'Mars Atmosphere Density Model'
https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/26647/m … ity-model/
April 05, 2022 Models for the seasonal variation

tahanson43206 · 2023-09-06 15:01:38

For Mars_B4_Moon re #4

Thank you for finding and showing the link to the Mars Atmosphere Density Model.

While the model was (apparently) developed for use by the Ingenuity flight team, it's values ** should ** be useful for one of our resident engineers to make an educated guess whether a hot "air" balloon would work on Mars. It is thought that a balloon filled with helium or hydrogen would work on Mars, although the lift from such a balloon would be very small compared to Earth at the surface.

However, ** this ** topic is dedicated to the suggestion you made, and which Calliban supported, that a hot "air" balloon might work on Mars.

It would be possible to test the idea on Earth, if a laboratory with a vacuum chamber were evacuated to the density of the atmosphere of Mars. Since NASA has been testing Ingenuity in just such a vacuum chamber, it is not out of the question for someone to perform physical tests of the hypothesis.

The result of combustion of Carbon Monoxide and Oxygen would be hot Carbon Dioxide. Whether the temperature of the hot CO2 would be sufficient to provide lift on Mars is "out there" to be tested,

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-09-06 21:24:35

A hot "air" dirigible might be a practical idea on Mars.

The idea for this configuration derives from the accidental introduction of a Carbon Monoxide - Oxygen internal combustion engine for a lighter than "air" vehicle on Mars. It was proposed that the exhaust from such an engine would contain waste heat from the combustion process that would itself drive large slow moving propellers designed for the low density atmosphere of Mars. That waste heat could enter the body cavity of a lighter than "air" vehicle, where it would contribute to the lift otherwise provided by CO and O2 burners.

On Earth, the base of a hot air balloon is open at the bottom. Lift is provided by the thermal energy that causes the density of gases inside the balloon to be less than the density of the air outside.

In principle, a hot air dirigible should be possible on Earth, but (to my knowledge) no one has ever built one.

However, on Mars, the difficulty of obtaining helium or even hydrogen might tip the economic scales in favor of the hot "air" idea.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-09-06 21:52:29

Google came to the rescue ... it turns out that a human ** has ** built and flown a hot air airship ...

History
Skyacht Personal Blimp - another type of thermal airship
The first public flight of a hot air airship was made by Don Cameron (UK) in a Cameron D-96 at the Icicle Meet in January 1973. The aircraft took 3 years to develop.

1973-2023 >> 50 years .... The Wikipedia entry for hot air dirigibles goes on at some length.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_airship

Apparently there has been a fair amount of development over the past 50 years.

In thinking about the Mars case ... It might be possible to eliminate the mass of an internal combustion engine, and simply vent the output of the combustion process through a suitable valve at the tail of the airship. In that case, the interior of the envelope would NOT be open to the outside. Instead, the burner output would be directed into the interior of the airship, and the resulting CO2 would be vented from the tail to provide thrust and direction.

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-09-07 09:44:53

Sailing the Planets: Exploring Mars from Guided Balloons
https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/10.2514/6.2005-7320

Directed aerial robot explorers for planetary exploration
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 7703011669

Maybe in the future you will see tourist Airship is possible, perhaps some of the systems Hybrid and using heated CO2 or other gasses, buoyancy (Fb=pVg) V=(pi)r^2h the balloon filled with any type of gas is actually displacing the Mars air which surrounds it. In some alternative scifi movies and comicbooks you see steampunk future from a parallel dimension of Zeppelin style ships and Hot-Air-Balloon ship craft dominating alien skies and trans-Atlantic diplomatic balloons in fantasy settings, the Balloon has not left the human imagination. I was thinking in the distant maybe not so distant future once human colony and small Mars bio-Dome villages are established maybe Nuclear Rockets or some new form of propulsion would make Mars more accessible for tourism from Earth to Mars just as people go on long Cruise Ship journey and so the Balloon arrives as transport when tourists arrive at a new world destination. The site for landing on Mars and transporting between locations does not need to be a complex shipping port or airport it just needs a flat field, it can be sandy or ice or whatever flat area is available and will provide access to far away undeveloped remote locations without a Mars road system or tunnel traintracks, the Balloon ship will be a perfect option to move and trade. Part of the Mars-Balloon market might eventually become a 'Luxury' product for a bunch of Space Tourists to visit distant regions where infrastructure is lacking.

The skies might be full of Mars 'Airship' and projects and industry will be perhaps reborn on Mars, they might even have unique design like a giant float Dolphin or Shark or the Balloon might have strange look Prehistoric Animal. The Martian people might not have the resources that airlines uses to burn, burning rocket fuel is expensive also and instead need another method of lift. On Mars the hot "air" dirigible might form a viable business case, an economically essential method of transport and trade between far off village and Biosphere colonies, even if only a few dozen exist world wide today I think in a future they might become a common sight on a colonized Mars. The Mars Airship would be a huge lighter than Air Transport, one of the largest ever built. They might be used in transport of essential minerals and waters and food and vitamin and medical supply, the ship balancing the floating buoyant force and controlled falling part of the ships key features. The Airship itself might be a hybrid a mix of Helicopter feature and Propeller Type of aircraft features attacked to different parts of the Balloon, the Airship might be shaped more Aero Dynamic and have small 'Wings' or Tailfin features for steering. Mars does have hydrogen but Hydrogen does come with problems, the chemical He helium is expensive on Earth and hard to find in harvesting quantities on planet Earth so it makes sense to use hot air. Mars is primarily carbon dioxide , molecular nitrogen, and argon and also contains trace levels of water vapor, oxygen, carbon monoxide, hydrogen, and other noble gases, a lighter-than-air gas is simply a gas that has a density lower than normal atmospheric gases due to its composition or temperature. The little Mars Helicopter by NASA JPL has a Dry mass 1.8 kilograms maybe the Airship will need to up its payload by a factor of one thousand first, or move 1800 Kg or 1.77 Imperial Tons around Mars, then I imagine its design is improved and refined upon again and it becomes an essential transport service that moves product around the planet.
'Solar Powered Hot Air Balloons'
During the daytime on Mars a balloon with a lot of Black markings might absorb Solar Energy and save fuel and energy for lifting.
PDF quote Hot Air Balloons
https://web.archive.org/web/20230319095 … ersion.pdf

It is concluded that lifts of 1.5 Nm-3 would be easily attainable in a country such as Britain, meaning that an 80kg person could be lifted by a 550m3 balloon, which compares favorably with the sizes of regular hot air balloons.

However anything 'Solar' on Mars comes with risks and after some time any device seems to get covered by a very fine layer of Dust, the Balloon might need to have some 'non sticking' features or to be cleaned regularly. A body that absorbs too much heat also comes with risks, currently on Earth science Researchers developed artificial ‘chameleon skin’ that changes its colors and could be used in applications such as active camouflage, the balloon colors might rotate or it might also change a balloons buoyancy simply by absorbing or reflecting heat from the Sun on Mars.

Once you set up a system of 'Free Lift' let's say its something like a system absorbing Solar power to heat the gas inside the Balloon making its air lighter or using Hydrogen or Helium this 'Free Lift' system will always be there. So as soon as you transport say a box of good, ores, water and medicine that weigh 1800 Kg or 1.77 Imperial Tons then your balloon immediately wants to lift off. People have added more Helium and released it to change a Balloon 'Lift' but it is not economically feasible on Earth and on Mars Helium might be even more rare, a physics solution would be to have a decompress and compression section, and tanks this is tested on Balloons and Submerged craft like Submarine which can obtain neutral buoyancy the weight of the Craft equal the amount of water/air. The Hybird using a vacuum airship or a vacuum balloon for now only exists in Scifi, it is a hypothetical airship that is evacuated rather than filled on Earth 1 liter or 0.219 imperial gallons of displaced air has sufficient buoyant force to lift 1.28 g or 0.045 ounces where 1 lbs = 16 oz some Balloon designs might work far better on Titan or Venus, on Mars the Balloon might allow in outside air to make it heavier just as a Submarine allows in water to its tanks. On Earth Train Divers are now robotic and automated, the Martian Transport Balloon like a Sub might also have its own control room but with an AI robot instead of having a human to take up weight and space. This Mars Balloon might one day become part of a Hybrid system including Hot-Air as its dominant feature with other systems adding extra lift but or now this compression or vacuum system would need to be made much lighter to work on a Mars balloon. The problem with using a compression tank section on a Mars Balloon to change its buoyancy is that all of these compression tank sections are already every heavy on Earth and almost impossible to use in Earth atmosphere so on Mars they will need to be much, much lighter to be part of any Hybrid Hot Air Balloon system, but if researchers crack the code to this technology with nano tech and printing and AI and R&D it might be the system of the future. When you develop a Balloon to transport 1800 Kg or 1.77 Imperial Tons one option might be offsetting weight delivered by propeller engine thrust to stop your craft from lifting off as it delivers its payload. However another option I thought of is the Balloon only arrives near some power source station, a long vein wire or tube or tentacle then moves from the ground and hooks up to the Mars Balloon, any weight of essential products delivered is immediately balanced by pumping some kind of disposable maybe gas sandy liquid material up into the Balloon as a weight balance, every time it drops off 2 tonnes it already picks up 2 tonnes 2,000 kilograms when it goes to a far off village to collect 1-3 tonnes it already has almost 1-3 tonnes of some liquid material it can simply dump or throw away to offset the buoyancy balance, it is possible the Hot Air Balloon itself in a not so distant not so scifi future might even pull ingredients from the air and manufacture its own extra weight needed.

I think the reason Balloons were put out of business on Earth is because Ships and Trains and Aircraft made everything that travels cheaper and more accessible, but Mars will not have roads or airports or access. The Balloons on Earth while the idea seems simple using them to deliver is a complex process, complex difficult condition and that perfect balance 'Equilibrium' a state of balance between opposing forces, the downward force called gravity and an upward force called buoyancy. If the Balloon arrives near a Mars bio-Dome village and the village has enough reactor power then maybe a Robotic AI system can be set up to pump up sandy liquid materials and keep that perfect balance between buoyancy and weight as products from across Mars are delivered and unloaded, the liquid sand material can be dumped again during the next Hot-Air Balloon flight. In the past a team of hundreds of humans on Earth would pull a balloon down with ropes to keep it on the ground, another option might be to make the Mars Balloon craft slightly heavier than air but with its little Dolphin or Shark fin or propellers and small 'Wings' it then generates that extra little bit of lift by forward motion and the Balloon itself is a true Hybrid of other Balloon sciences. Propellers might force a Balloon to try stay on the ground but this might waste energy and fuel. Boarding people on and off the Balloon and taking shipping material on and off the Balloon will be a lot easier if the Balloon naturally almost wants to stay on the ground. The Balloon would not need an airport like a helicopter you could land it almost anywhere as long as it is a large flat plain.

The Balloons of Mars might become part of a logistics supply chain, near the equator medical products made, important ores, alcohol ethanol fuels, plants and trees and mushroom and chemicals cut and made but then perhaps raw material 'lifted' from an inaccessible site transported to another almost inaccessible site or distant crater or valley or basin where they might have essential waters or minerals or liquids for that manufacturing production which can not be done at the equator site. The flying Balloon a visual site like a Prehistoric looking creature Shark shape or Dolphin Hot Air Balloon would fly into a remote Mountain site and then collect material and retrieve other material that would be chemically changed or processed or refined or a finished product manufactured at another region. You will not risk humans on foot to deliver product between colonies it would be far to risky for transport, so with a need of material exchange there would be a market gap, flying Balloon would be a far better than a Helicopter's lift it would be more like a flying Truck or Construction Unloading Delivery Crane.

tahanson43206 · 2023-09-07 10:09:26

For Mars_B4_Moon re #8

Thanks for the links to the papers of 2005 and 2004 .... that was apparently a time of optimism

Thanks too, for the reminder of the vacuum balloon, which has come up previously in the forum. As you pointed out, there appears to be no way to achieve a vacuum inside a very thin, lightweight shell. Obviously it can be achieved with a very thick, strong outer wall.

Your reminder of the vacuum balloon reminds me of a concept that was published by a former Admin of this forum, JoshNh4h (if I recall the username correctly) ... way back in the 2015 time frame, Josh described a concept for energy storage .... he imagined a collection of free flying protons captured in a "magic" container. These would (of course) be "thirsty" for electrons, so they would function as an electric energy storage medium. The container in which this collection of protons would exist is not possible (to known science).

Likewise, a vacuum balloon might be filled with electrons. This concept has the advantage of at least potentially existing in the Real Universe. The wall of the "vacuum" balloon would be made of two layers of conducting material with a suitable insulator between. The inner layer would be negative, so it would repel the electrons inside the balloon, and the outer layer would be positive (and prferably at ground potential). Thus, the wall of the balloon would be held firm against the constant pounding of air molecules.

Since we have an Electrical Engineer in the forum membership, here is an opportunity to see how far toward the Real Universe this concept might be stretched.

As a note of caution .... this topic is not intended for publication of science fiction, fascinating as that genre is. I'm looking for "real" numbers and "real" solutions that might be implemented on Mars.

My guess is that the margin of lift for a given investment of mass for the vehicle is ** always ** going to be thin as a razor's edge, so speculation about fleets of balloons cavorting about the landscape seems fanciful to me.

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-09-07 18:22:01

I read they fly high altitude balloons to try find conditions on Earth that almost match conditions on Mars

Eclipse Balloons to Study Effect of Mars-Like Environment on Life
https://mars.nasa.gov/news/eclipse-ball … bout-mars/

During a full solar eclipse, is the stratosphere an even better Mars analog?
https://web.archive.org/web/20200321013 … ntext=ahac

Earth’s Middle
Stratosphere (~36 km)
Martian Surface
(by Curiosity Rover)
Earth’s Surface

Pressure 0.962 kPa 0.7kPa 101.325 kPa
UVA (315-400nm) 84.3 W m-2 39.0 W m-2 2.0 W m-2
UVB (280-315nm) 10.6 W m-2 8.38 W m-2 .007 W m-2
UVC (100-280nm) 2.6 W m-2 3.18 W m-2 Negligible
Ionizing Radiation .066 mGy/d .200 mGy/d .0161 mGy/d (FAA max)
Temperature -60 ̊C → 0 ̊C -80 ̊C → 0 ̊C 0 → 30 ̊C
Relative Humidity <10% <1% Variable

perhaps some back up infrastructure for the Balloons would be Satellites with Laser Communication and data able to relay at the L points and stay in constant communication with Earth. On our planet Earth a geostationary orbit hangs seemingly motionless above a point on Earth and remains in contact.

The Satellite Weather Channel for your Balloon

'Observing Mars from Areostationary Orbit: Benefits and Applications'
https://web.archive.org/web/20201001044 … ionary.pdf
Besides their possible use as Mars weather satellites, however, spacecraft in areostationary orbit can be used for several other important tasks. They can provide space weather monitoring, as they orbit outside Mars’ bow shock, and can measure the time-variable forcing that originates in the solar wind at sub-hourly time scale. They can be used for the study of surface properties such as thermal inertia and albedo, as well as their temporal changes (possibly linked to the mobility of surface dust reservoirs). Furthermore, several studies have highlighted the benefits of satellites operating in areostationary orbit for relaying communications from robotic and human missions on the Martian surface. An areostationary orbiter, in fact, is the ideal rover or lander operations relay, allowing continuous streaming of imagery and data, and anytime uplink of command sequences.

The Mars areostationary orbit or areosynchronous equatorial orbit (AEO) a circular areosynchronous orbit (ASO) in the Martian equatorial plane about above the surface, any point on which revolves about Mars in the same direction and with the same period as the Martian surface. Mars is not perfectly spherical and satellites drift, the Areostationary orbit is a concept similar to Earth's satellite communication by way of geostationary orbit (GEO).

tahanson43206 wrote:

speculation about fleets of balloons cavorting about the landscape seems fanciful to me.
(th)

I would respectfully disagree it might not happen in the next 10 years but once a technology gets moving there will be more of them and then maybe mass production with cheaper space access. for a while there were not many Robot Rovers, the Soviet Lunokhod and in 1997 while NASA was under budget cuts the tiny Sojourner Rover was successful and arrived on Mars

Now we have perhaps soon have invasion fleets of Rovers ready to launch from China, India, Japan, Europe,NASA JPL, Space-X and other agency

when one Balloon is proven successful more will arrive or perhaps one day be constructed on Mars.

The Mars Scout Programme was a NASA initiative to send a series of small, low-cost robotic missions to Mars some ideas discussed Balloons others talked of using Helicopters or Aircraft. When recession hit many projects were Cancelled / Suspended or concepts put on hold. a powered aircraft mission ARES would have traveled to Mars compactly folded into a protective aeroshell; upon entry in the thin atmosphere, the capsule would have deployed a parachute to decelerate, followed by ARES release at altitude, however they could only maybe figure out how fly for about one hour.

Here are some more Hot Air Balloon items and Dirigible for Mars or Balloon concepts I came across

NASA JPL link

Solar Montgolfieres

https://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/adv_tech/ball … olfier.htm
Solar Montgolfieres are lightweight balloons that could be used for controlled, low velocity impacts of Martian payloads or for exciting imaging and science balloon missions at Mars, as well as at Jupiter and Saturn. These balloons have an open bottom and would be filled with ambient atmosphere as they fall when deployed during atmospheric entry. They wouild be quickly heated by the sun and can provide partial buoyancy to soft-land payloads. After dropping off the payload, the balloon could then re-ascend with a 1-kg gondola that performs imaging and science for the remainder of the day. The required balloon mass to float a 50 kg gondola at Mars is only about 47 kg, and this same Montgolfiere could be used as a parachute to soft-land a 420 kg payload on Mars at 15 m/sec vertical impact speed. Montgolfieres have a big advantage in that numerous small leaks do not impair performance, since leaking air is quickly replaced and re-heated by the sun.

These "Montgolfiere" balloons are named after the two 18th-century French brothers Joseph-Michel and Jacques-Etienne Montgolfier, who were the first to fly hot-air balloons. Solar-heated balloons are nothing new. In fact, they are commercially available as novelty items and have been banned in some countries due to interference with commercial aviation. Since the 1970's, the French have flown over forty Montgolfieres in the Earth's stratosphere (10 mbar - 40 mbar). The longest flight lasted 69 days and encircled the Earth twice. All Montgolfiere testing to date, prior to this JPL effort, has involved balloons that are gently launched from the ground, using either hot air or helium to provide initial buoyancy. The present JPL test effort, which was begun in 1997, has concentrated on deploying Montgolfieres from the air, as would be done on a mission to Mars.

Military Montgolfieres and non-heated Montgolfieres, which are actually parachute balloons (a.k.a. "paraballoons") have also flown frequently, and have been used extensively by the U.S. Air Force as pilot ejection seat decelerators and to slowly descend bombs or bright observation lights during low altitude bombing runs. The testing being conducted by JPL attempts to combine the high-strength deployment requirements of paraballoons with the lightweight, cold strength requirements of stratospheric Montgolfiere balloons.

JPL has recently found altitude control systems that allow precise altitude control. The novel systems would allow balloons to collect and examine multiple ground samples over long distances for periods up to 90 days if deployed at a Martian pole in the summer. They also would allow very long-life balloons on Jupiter and Saturn that can dip into the lower water/ammonia clouds and survive the nights (~5 hours) by climbing very high before sunset.

Balloon Development Challenges for Mars
https://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/adv_tech/ball … erview.htm

Ballooning in the Martian atmosphere is complicated by the fact that the Martian carbon dioxide atmosphere is very cold (200 K or -73 degrees C), and it is very thin at 0.006 bar, where 1 bar = 1 atmospheric surface pressure on Earth. In order to fly balloons at Mars, the balloons must be made of very lightweight material.
However, a number of balloon robots, or aerobots, have been proposed for Mars. One simple type is a helium balloon that carries a rope-like snake. During the day, the balloon would be heated by the sun and rise to some altitude above the Martian surface. At night, the balloon would cool, and land on the Martian surface when the landed snake reduces part of the effective mass of the balloon system. Although this type of balloon was proposed in the 1990's, it has never flown due to problems incurred during atmospheric inflation testing and due to fears that the snake might entangle, thus endangering the balloon.
Another type of balloon is a helium superpressure balloon that would fly at a nearly constant altitude for both day and night. The balloon's internal pressure would be higher during the day than at night, although the balloon volume would remain the same. This type of balloon has great potential for long duration flights, possibly several weeks, but a strong, lightweight, leak-proof material must first be developed and successfully tested in a system where the balloon inflates while falling through the Martian atmosphere.
A third type of Martian balloon is known as a solar Montgolfiere, or a solar-heated hot air balloon. This simple, lightweight balloon system shows great promise for long-duration balloon flights over Mar's polar regions during summer, as well as for soft-landing payloads on the Martian surface.

Mars Superpressure Balloons
https://www-robotics.jpl.nasa.gov/what- … -balloons/

but use of 'helium'

Evacuated Airship for Mars Missions
https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/space … _Missions/
A vacuum airship made of a homogenous material cannot withstand the atmospheric pressure on Earth for any material humans have yet discovered, which can be proven using the critical buckling load of a sphere. However, from an initial analysis of the vacuum airship structure and relationship to atmospheric conditions, Mars appears to have an atmosphere in which the operation of a vacuum airship would not only be possible, but beneficial over a conventional balloon or dirigible. In addition, a multi-layer approach, in conjunction with a lattice, would circumvent the buckling problems of a single homogenous shell. The lattice used to support the two layers of the vacuum airship shell can be made, using modulation of the lengths of the members, to fit the curvature of the vacuum airship precisely by following an atlas approach to the modulation. The Martian atmosphere has a pressure to density ratio that is very beneficial to the operation of a vacuum airship; this is a result of the high average molecular weight of the atmosphere (relative to other planets in the solar system) and the temperature of the atmosphere, the trend for which can be observed from the ideal gas law. Through a more in-depth analysis of the vacuum airship model, it can be shown that the vacuum airship may theoretically carry more than twice as much payload as a modeled dirigible of the same size, a 40-meter radius, in the Martian atmosphere.

Another illustration from scifi Bryce 3-d model concept

https://www.sharecg.com/v/1920/related/ … -Dirigible

Will a Balloon fly with Reports of Dust storms and Cold and War weather?

Mars satellites again

Perturbations on a Stationary Satellite by the Longitude-Dependent Terms in Mars’ Gravitational Field
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … onal_Field

Back on Earth I see the Chinese and Quebec / Canada have bought into a French company.

Some 2021 news

Giant airship project, touted as solution to remote shipping, 'on track' says company
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/fl … -1.5973192

social media profile
https://www.linkedin.com/company/flying-whales

The Balloon company receives financial support from several institutional players including, the French government with 29.5 million euros, the Canadian province of Quebec via Investment Quebec for 30 million dollars, and the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC)

In 1783, three prominent Americans, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams and John Jay, were in Paris negotiating, on behalf of their country, the peace treaty to end the Revolutionary War. They were witnesses to the balloon flights and a source of information to Americans. Benjamin Franklin wrote as early as July of that year to his network of scientific correspondents of the balloon developments. In a letter to Congressman Robert Livingston, John Jay predicted that, “travelers may hereafter literally pass from country to country on the wings of the wind.” American newspaper coverage began in November 1783 when the Salem Gazette reported on the balloon activity in Paris.
George Washington was typical of his fellow citizens who were fascinated by the first published reports of aeronautical activity. In remarks to a friend in April 1784, Washington wrote, “I have only news paper accts. of Air Balloons, to which I do not what credence to give. The tales related of them are marvelous, and lead us to expect that our friends at Paris, in a little time, will come flying thro’ the air, instead of ploughing the ocean to get to America.”

The amazing flight of the “Norge,” the airship that took Amundsen on the first-ever journey over the North Pole
https://www.thevintagenews.com/2017/12/ … orth-pole/

Feb 15, 2016 news

Presidential Writings Reveal Early Interest in Ballooning
https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/edit … ballooning

'The Lockheed Martin Hybrid Airship.'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMRZ26cOxTc

FLYING WHALES | Corporate video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VLs9VbT_7s

Some news French aeronautic start-up.
https://www.businessinsider.com/flying- … ing-2020-9

"Giant airship project, touted as solution to remote shipping, 'on track' says company"
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/fl … -1.5973192

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-09-07 19:40:14)

tahanson43206 · 2023-09-07 19:46:29

For Mars_B4_Moon re #10

You have outdone yourself, with this post.

While the post is long and full of links and information, I note one detail... the reference to the molecular weight of CO2 being greater than that of air, and therefore (apparently) contributing to increased lift for a balloon filled with either helium or hydrogen.

I quick asked Google, and it found a web site where molecular weights of various gases are listed...

CO2 44.01 grams per MOL
Oxygen 32
Nitrogen 28

Helium is 4 and Hydrogen is 2, so the net lift would (presumably) be 42 grams per MOL if Hydrogen is the lifting gas.

Hydrogen can be made from water, so it is far more likely to be used on Mars than Helium, which is going to be hard to come by in comparison.

SearchTerm:Balloon long post by Mars_B4_Moon with many citations.

(th)

Calliban · 2023-09-07 20:23:19

TH, all correct. But to generate hot air, one needs a source of heat. That heat source is heavy and needs fuel. A hydrogen filled balloon does not need fuel to stay aloft. The balloon must be exceptionally thin to be light enough to sustain bouyant lift on Mars. This aggrevates the problem of diffusion of H2 across the membrane. The H2 will not be pressurised and it should be cold, both of which will reduce diffusion rate. How rapidly this will happen I cannot say, but I know it will be a problem because it was a problem for rigid airships on Earth, used up until WW2. The hydrogen diffused out of the gas cells and had to be topped up at the beginning of each trip. Back then, they lined the cotton gas cells with something called gold beater's skin. This was the stretched out intestinal lining of cattle, which was found to greatly reduce H2 diffusion rate. We have much better, stronger and less permeable polymers today. But keeping diffusion rates low whilst making them micron thin, will be a difficult design challenge.

The balloons do not neccesarily need propulsion. If one is using them for exploration, westerly winds will carry the balloons in a predictable direction.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-09-07 20:27:57)

tahanson43206 · 2023-09-07 21:43:57

For Calliban re #12

Thanks for continuing to support this topic!

A question worth considering is whether the loss of Hydrogen through the skin of the airship is worth worrying about.

It may be, but in the context of Mars, and assuming there ** is ** an adequate supply of water, then hydrogen is easy to make, so refilling the envelope seems to me to be roughly comparable to changing the oil in a machine. It's just part of the cost of doing business.

***
Regarding the hot "air" concept that first originated with Mars_B4_Moon and which was supported early by you, I would like to invite your consideration of carbon monoxide and oxygen as a source of heat as well as propulsion.

The idea of allowing the wind to determine direction sounds a lot like sailing before the wind, with no option to tack. There will surely be a place for it, but not in business. If air transport as Mars_B4_Moon is imagining is to come to pass, propulsion and the ability to navigate across and even into the wind will be needed.

In other topics, we have established (to my satisfaction at least) that CO and O2 are excellent choices for bread-and-butter machinery anywhere on Mars. The supply of raw material is inexhaustible, and the performance of machinery that consumes these chemicals is comparable to other chemistry.

I'd like to see if the concept would work for Mars_B4_Moon's vision of airships plodding across the Martian landscape in large numbers.

***
Side note ... electric current can heat air and provide power for electric motors for propulsion. What I'm thinking about here is the inverse of your oft repeated vision of electric trains on Mars. An electric airship would pull power from a track that supplies both hot and ground connections. The issue of dust raised (often) by kbd512 and others remains a concern. I haven't seen a solution proposed here in the forum, but there might be one, because on some day's I can't keep up with the flow of posts!

(th)

Calliban · 2023-09-07 22:46:15

Just to highlight the difficulty of designing any lighter than air vessel on Mars. At 6.1mbar, hydrogen will provide a lift in a CO2 atmosphere of just 13 grams/m3. The Hindenburg was the largest aircraft ever flown and was in fact considerably larger than ocean liners of the day. It's gas cells had a volume of 200,000m3, which gave a lift of 511,500 lbs (232 metric tonnes). This reference shows the airship to scale against other vehicles. A 747 looks tiny in comparison.
https://www.airships.net/hindenburg/size-speed/

The ship's structural weight was 118 tonnes, well over one half of total lift. When fuel, crew and provisions were included, total weight came to 206 tonnes, out of a gross lift of 216 or 232 tonnes, depending on which reference you look at. That slim margin of 10 - 26 tonnes, was for passengers, their provisions and mail.
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/ques … hindenburg

How much total lift would the Hindenburg have generated on Mars? 200,000 x 0.013 = 2,600kg (2.6 tonnes). This for a vehicle bigger than an ocean liner. And we plan to make a vehicle out of this, with engines and propulsion? I don't think so.

Suppose we built a spherical balloon with volume 200,000m2, the same as Hindenburg. It would have diameter 72.6m and surface area of 16,500m2. To float without any payload, the mass of the balloon must be no more than 157 grams per square metre. If the skin is made of polymer, total thickness could be no more than 0.2mm, just to achieve neutral bouyancy. That is about twice the thickness of printer paper. Any payload you add will require the balloon to be ever thinner.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-09-07 23:17:50)

tahanson43206 · 2023-09-08 06:19:56

For Calliban re #14

Thank you for your clear explanation of the factors that govern airship design at Mars, and for the helpful comparison with Hindenburg.

I note that the (hypothetical) balloon would collect Martian dust like a magnet.

It would be interesting to see figures for the weight of Martian dust laid on the upper surface of the 72.6 meter balloon, to the thickness already experienced by numerous rovers.

My guess is the mass of the dust would quickly burden what little lift is available.

SearchTerm:Lift of 76.2 meter balloon at Mars using Hydrogen.

A nice coincidence is that the hypothetical balloon from Post #14 is nearly the diameter of Large Ship.

That leads me to point out that a torus shaped balloon with a diameter of 80 meters and a torus cross section of 19 meters would serve quite well as a visual advertisement for Large ship at modest cost, compared to the metal reality.

Mars_B4_Moon .... Louis was famous for never accepting the figures provided by other, more knowledgeable forum members.

Please adjust your vision of balloons in the Martian landscape to take into account the figures just provided by Calliban.

Update later ... Calliban gave a figure of 13 grams of lift per cubic meter of hydrogen at Mars atmospheric pressure of 6.1 mbar.

I had previously reported the mass of CO2 as 44 grams per MOL. The connection between the two figures is the number of cubic meters that a MOL of CO2 would fill at Mars atmosphere.

Dividing 44 by 13 gives a result of 3.4 .... This figure is in question, because Hydrogen has a mass of 2 grams per MOL. We may have an Apples and Oranges situation.

Never-the-less, I asked an online calculator (periodni.com) to compute the percent of a mol that CO2 would consume if it is measured on Mars in the amount of one cubic meter. The calculator came up with a value of .27 mol, which translates to 3.7 cubic meters per mol.

The difference between 3.4 and 3.7 might be accounted for by the presence of hydrogen inside the balloon, as calculated by Calliban.

I had calculated 42 grams of lift per mol, and Calliban had predicted 13 grams per cubic meter.

My figure of 42 grams takes into account the mass of Hydrogen inside the balloon.

42 divided by 3.7 is 11.35 .... That's a bit lower than Calliban's calculation.

For Calliban ... please double check my figures.

Also.... I'm assuming the difference in gravity would wash out, but there might be some subtle difference between Mars and Earth.

The weight of the envelope would be less on Mars, which you may have already taken into account.

I assume (a bit shaky here) that the pressure of the CO2 on Mars is the determining factor for lift, so that the lower gravity would not affect the power of the atmosphere to push the hydrogen up against gravity.

Update a bit later: The mass of a US quarter is reported to be about 6 grams .... on Earth, at sea level, that quarter would weigh about 6 grams.

For Mars_B4_Moon:
If you hold two quarters in your hand at sea level, you would be able to "feel" the "lift" of a cubic meter of hydrogen gas. Your mass budget for your airship needs to "pay" for the structure of the airship, out of that two quarters, and still have a bit of lift left over. I ** think** the gravity involved is not relevant. You have to design your airship so that after all the hardware is in place, and the hydrogen gas is loaded, you still have a net lift.

Follow up question for Calliban:

If gravity makes a difference, and the hydrogen cubic meter can lift two quarters on Earth, is it correct to surmise it can lift 4 or possibly as many as 5 quarters on Mars?

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-09-08 11:27:23

I think shipping 2.6 tonnes around a land mass compared to ancient continents of Pangaea or Gondwanaland is reasonable, I feel many gasses can lift out of the Martian air, Bio-Gas, Water, Natural Gas all should be lighter than CO2 so one method could be to take some CO2 out of the air and discard it and then warm that air. I am happy to be corrected but I understood using a Balloon on Mars as a type of buoyancy fluid thing. Mars does not have a heavy thick atmosphere compared to Earth but its composition is very different. I admit could be totally incorrect but I understood Mars as having a kind of 'heavy liquid' air even though it is thin and if you will excuse the analogy the Air moves like Water, some liquids sink below water others expand and displace and rise above water and Earth's air 'Thick' but Mars is 'Thin' and yet is more heavy like a Syrup, Ethanol or Saltwater or Glycerin the Mars air is comparatively heavy-ish even though it is thinner, the air of Earth while layered heavy and thicker has molecules of lighter molar mass, the Air on Earth is of different composition so it is more like that Oil, Kerosene, Petrol stuff that floats to the top. Did you ever go on vacation to some tourist spot and they give you some weird cocktail to drink and you notice a lot of the fluids don't really mix some colors of liquid in that alcohol drink stay on the bottom and other color liquids seem lighter and want to stay on top? Even though Earth has a lot of atmosphere its density would be low on a Watery Baumé scale and Mars would rank high, Venus air is very heavy with pressures matching that 900 m 3,000 ft under the sea, I'm not sure I ever fully understood why Titan's air was so thick maybe other than it being far away from the Solar winds and colder molecules move more slowly, which makes them easier to hold on to I guess and maybe Cryo Volcanos blasting out gas. But as I understood it Mars and Venus are alike in some ways, although they are two totally different planets the thick hellish Atmosphere of Venus can also be compared with the cold thin atmosphere of Mars. On Earth the lower atmosphere is more evenly mixed but light gases do float to the top and the upper layers of atmosphere have a higher varied composition of lighter Earth gases such as hydrogen and helium. One famous example of CO2 pushing other gasses up and away was the Lake Nyos disaster in Africa where thousands of people and livestock were knocked out by gas some thousands of death and never to wake up again. Mars Express spacecraft seems to have detected other light has like ammonia which would be another lighter than CO2 gas, if there was a way to suck in air and warm it while dumping out some of the CO2 there could be better lift.

I would not be surprised to find Low areas of Mars like Hellas Planita, Valles Marineris and Utopia Planita to have heavier Molecular gas while at the same time I would not be surprised to see the high elevations to contain the light gases, Velles Marineris is 7 km (23,000 ft) deep, Olympus Mons 21 km (13 mi) above the Mars, these different mixes of airs in future colonized zones might help a Hotair Balloon Airship fly better. A long term plan into a far future to change the air medium, how terraforming air changes how the craft will fly on Mars. One solution might be to dump heavier gasses into the air by way of industry. 'Propane' is not good enough for long term changes in the air because it is too close to the Molecular Mass of CO2, Nitrogen tetroxide is much heavier but it might also condense and freeze, also Mars seems to be rare in Nitrogen not as easily accessible, Carbon tetrachloride is heavy but has a somewhat high boiling point compared to othergas it also is toxic and attacks the human nervous system, Xeon is a heavy gas but also very rare on Mars, perhaps a railgun on another off world colony could ship tonnes of compressed exotic but harmless liquid and air to change Mars. Industry on Mars might need to produce billion tons of new air into the atmosphere to see changes.

I will go with the figure of moving 2.6 tonnes for now, maybe it is from reading scifi I wonder if the Balloon would also be a Spider or a Flying Fish of Mars or perhpas it is look at the new innovative designs on Earth. Maybe its not a fallacy but I do not believe it is correct to assume in our future the 'Hindenburg' style is the best we can do, also why not an exploration of other ideas like hybrid of technology. A Balloon on Mars might use innovative techniques, it might be hot air but it might also have other feature it could be part glider or have a part that unfolds like variable-sweep wing, colloquially known as a "swing wing" seen on the Rockwell B1 Lancer, Tupolev Tu-22M, F14 Tomcat and some Passenger Jetliner concepts and UAV drones, the Balloon ship could have computer controlled flaps for best performance. The Airship might be part Glider or it might have extra propellers giving it extra lift. We are starting to see what can be done in the airs of Mars and Helicopter flight has already been proven by NASA JPL in the Martian atmosphere. Engines are also improving each year, batteries have been tried on an airship way back in 1880s, perhaps other innovative ideas could be used, a frog spawn of lenses and eyeballs maybe using generation solar and beaming energy into some part inside the balloon that moves heat around by convection and heats the gas inside, the Balloon itself could have solar farm and battery storage, according to NASA batteries are becoming more efficient and doing more useful work.

I wonder if there is an effiecent way to suck in the Mars atmopshere take out some of the CO2 and use the other molecules as a lighter lifting gas, the RCRS on Shuttle used system that provided continuous removal of carbon dioxide without expendable products, maybe you could take out CO2 from the Air of Mars and fill your Balloon with lighter warned up Molecule. When adding propeller plane and helicopter design to your Balloon, everything needs to be light on Earth we have the Sikorsky Firefly Eagle Aviation Helicopter electric motor and controller system weighs 180 lb (82 kg) and heavy transport helicopter but a Mars Hybrid Balloon might need something lighter again. Every year we hear news of a new engine that is lighter, a new aircraft 10% better than comparable planes, a new car design that might use less fuel and drive long distance so let us assume maybe the Balloon might also improve in the future. Hydrogen does not give a lot of additional buoyancy compared to helium but using helium will be very expensive. The Balloon of Mars might not just be one idea or shape but maybe it could be three joined together, there might be an innovative design for aerodynamics like the Lockheed P-38 Lightning twin-fuselage aircraft, the Airship might be two Hindenburg type shapes joined or it could be three Hindenburg shapes joined together giving a lift of 2.6 X 2 or maybe a lift of 2.6 X 3 = 7.8 tonnes moving around Mars on your reusable Martian AI Robot Balloon. Mars mostly carbon dioxide (95%), molecular nitrogen and argo trace elements of of water vapor, oxygen and others gases like Methane but the main one is CO2. I wonder if heated water would work vs the mean average weight of Mars' atmosphere is the molar mass of carbon dioxide (CO2) is 44 g/mol and Molar mass of H2O = 18.01528 g/mol however you might risk 'wetness' and water sticking to your balloon making it heavy, Hydrogen Fluoride molecular weight Molar mass of HF = 20.0063432 g/mol, the molecular mass of methane (CH4) is about 16.04 g/mol, if we find Neon on Mars it has average atomic mass 20.17 g/mol the molar mass of the element nitrogen is 14.0 g/mol it is not very good on Earth but on Mars?

Hydrogen fluoride on Earth has a boiling point of 19.5°C but it is very poisonous so it could be a bad idea to use it near a human colony. Seems that CO2 is heavy so I am going to suggest heating a mix of Waters, Neon, Methane, Nitrogen and CO2 as a 'Lift' versus normal CO2 Mars atmosphere which should have a heavier molecular weight per moles.

Also an AI robot Balloon does not need to travel A to point B to C all in one journey, the Balloon does not need to immediately arrive at 'high speed' as we demand vehicles do on Earth. The Robot Balloon it can drop maybe go into sleep power saving mode and take rests just as a Rancher or Cowboy did not work his horse to death when going on a journey, rests were allowed.
The Balloon can fly A1 to A2 to A3 and then eventually to B1 to B2 to B3 and finally arrive at point C, ascending and descending maybe depending on weather and day and nighttime conditions. Mars will have a smaller population of people and it will less to feed and have a longer year, there might be no rush to get this done but it might be more important to get there sure and steady. In the future industry might start terraforming the weather system Mars, the Martian atmosphere is much thinner but an atmosphere of most CO2, has a 50+% higher molecular weight than Earth's N2/O2 mix. If adding propellers to your Hotair Balloon Hybrid Airship, your Balloon now becomes a type of UAV. The longer blades on the Bigger Balloon would be super light weigh material.

at the smaller scales

'Numerical And Experimental Aerodynamic Investigation Of A Micro-UAV For Flying On Mars'
https://web.archive.org/web/20230908175 … 2/document

Calliban, Tahanson I believe the Private Sector with motivation and finances could be doing testing right at this moment. We know we can already do tests on Earth in Earth’s Middle Stratosphere that are similar to conditions on Mars. I wrote going around the planet or going around Olympus Mons or wrote about using balloons as surveillance, mapping, communication and establishing important supply. The Balloon can be involved in shipment of precious mineral, food stuff, processed ores, waters and liquids, seeds and other material that will be expensive to ship all the way from planet Earth. Let's go with Calliban's lifting figure of 2-3 tonnes at this moment or 2.6 tonnes, a complaint can be made the Hindenburg already did it and could lift a much larger payload but I don't think it so relevant like comparing Apples and Oranges let's say, a totally different era when people believed in balloons and it was done on Earth for vacation or travel feats between nations. If they do design a working Hot-Air Balloon and it can land and take off and be reusable and deliver good and service it could become an essential part of the Martian supply route. The costs of shipping something all the way from Earth might drop a little more but it will always be a massively expensive project to launch rockets all the way from Earth. Payload delivery can get cheaper but for a while it will probably always cost anywhere from $60 million to $230 million per launch, even using some of the more cheaper rockets especially if you are shipping medical supplies, food, water, fuel etc you want to produce as much of this stuff on Mars as possible, maybe first test a new Balloon, Car or Train or Airship and then allow local Martians to innovate and figure out how to use the new local Mars technology as best as possible and allow their own systems to evolve.

Let's stay with that older figure of 2.6 tonnes that a Mars balloon might lift 2641.7 Kg however I don't believe this is accurate as I think balloons should be able to lift much more today if I understand the research being done. Now consider offworld payloads, the Viking landers were 3500+ kg or 3.44 imperial tonnes. After separation and landing, the lander had a mass of about 600 kg or 1322.77 lbs or 0.59 tonnes and the orbiter 900 kg. The problem with Earth is companies were in constant competition transport and tourism were highly competitive sectors. The Balloon became the old fat guy in a younger and faster moving world and as companies compete their profit margins go very low eventually Aircraft win transport in the USA, networks of high speed trains in Asia and Europe and Cargo ships put the Balloon out of business, a risky Wright Brothers sustained flight of a powered, heavier-than-air aircraft suddenly became one of the safest ways to travel with a Boeing 747 and a typical 366 passengers or an A380 cramming as many into the can as possible with maximum certified capacity for 853 passengers, the Balloon could have been allowed develop more on Earth but economics put it out of business. On planet Mars the Balloon might be too important,because it can access far of route it could be irreplaceable just as nothing truly matches a Helicopter on Earth for mountain rescue. Opportunity and its twin, Spirit were payloads weighing 180 kilograms 400 lb flying them all the way to Mars was expensive, the Chinese Rover Zhurong had Launch mass 240 kilograms 530 lb, Perseverance a very similar design to its predecessor rover, Curiosity had a Dry mass 1,025 kilograms or 2,260 lb , this still far short of Caliban's figure of 2.6 tonnes or 2641.7 KGs

I think a lot of my speculative Mars navigation ideas might have had element of science fantasy maybe less factual ideas with Airships, Car, Train, Balloon ideas came from another topic the 'Circumnavigation of Mars' it was probably a topic based more on science fantasy of a possible future world exchanging materials between Mars domes, industrial regions and villages than science fact. However I considered Mars would be a frontier, it might a series of successful colony but also colonies on the edge of failure, it might have trails, it could be frontier territory and different to achieve feats and infrastructure like the early Train tracks and Balloon trips in the United States, Canada , Europe, Asia and Australia and I now consider perhaps it can work. In a far of remote village being able to deliver 2.6 tonnes of essential goods and processed material service could be essential to keeping far away colonies working, every time I would expect the Hot-Air Balloon AI Robot to be reused on another Trip. The Balloon will perhaps be more successful with ultralight engines say less than 20Kg or 44 lbs for its light weight it would need maximum horse power however to test your Prototype Mars Balloon with the latest high tech most efficient engine will not come at a cheap price but every year if you are testing a model the motors and body and wings change you can find a new efficient / lightest motors but it needs to work in a hostile environment in an alien atmosphere.

Even though the Balloon has largely been abandoned it might come back as a Luxury remote from of 'Tourist Travel' on Earth, with a clever AI robot flying it can possibly provide transport services on Mars. there are also interesting designs like the LM Hybrid Airship, the French Flying Whale. The dirigible French idea goes back to the Balloon meaning "steerable" the non-rigid airships were referred originally to as "Blimps" the "Zeppelins" often refer to an aesthetic design like the look or a boat or visual feature of an old sportscar and risks using explosive gas ignition of free hydrogen by static discharge rather than use of helium and 'hot air' the Zeppelin name also refers to the British rock band the German Zeppelin Company, the World War 1 raids on London and the Hindenburg disaster in New Jersey. Sometimes today they use a Balloon within a Balloon an airbag 'Ballonet' is filled with a heavier gas inside the structure of the balloon thus changing the overall lift. The material, computing and chemical and physics has moved on since those days and there are many 'Hybrid airship' designs that use a number of rigid, non-rigid features other means of 'Hybrid' propulsion and the world since those early days has new production and Construction techniques. In a Hybrid system I would probably pick only 'Hot-Air' if Helium was also available, the costs of using Helium seem to high for now unless a cheap source supply is found in the future colonized Solar System.

When fuel is burnt for lift / propulsion, then it gets easier to lift and fly, there is progressive reduction in the airship's overall weight occurs but other than an exotic idea like a vacuum balloon the Hydrogen will provide the best lift, if using other gas like Hydrogen you risk explosion when inertia or purging was not sufficient. You could add a mix of some other gases like hydrogen to make your hot warm air even lighter but if you want humans to Travel on your Mars Balloon and need to give humans oxygen adding Hydrogen is an extreme risk, there might be Leaks detected and flame detection systems, the zeppelin Hindenburg is an example of a Hydrogen disaster, so is the O-Ring and LH2 tank in the the Space Shuttle Challenger, in Japan Fukushima the hydrogen leaking in containment were filled with inert nitrogen so nothing happened but then after a while it mixed with normal air and the Nuclear reactor buildings already hit by an Earthquake and Tsunami were now getting damaged by hydrogen explosions. NASA however also has a good track record and been one of the world's largest users of hydrogen so maybe there could be a hybrid system that adds more lift to the Hot-Air. The Italian and British Army or Royal Navy and royal Airforce have a history of testing various airships, there currently is a very large Dalian Shanghai Airship 'hot air' balloon Manufacture in China and another company in Germany. The South African De Beers diamond company has used airship exploration to use a gravity gradiometer to find African minerals.
There is a California company Airship Ventures that wants new designs for tourists and Nippon Airship from Japan interested in tourist flights and advertising.
A French company linked to the military of France has a balloon that can remain aloft and stationary for up to 24 hours in the case of crewed airships 'A-NSE, the French specialist in surveillance aerostats'
https://www.meretmarine.com/fr/defense/ … -aerostats
a company linked with the US military has 'SwRI - HiSentinel stratospheric airships'
https://web.archive.org/web/20230604011 … ntinel.pdf
We are also familiar with news reports the Chinese might be testing maneuverable UAP 'Spy Balloons'

Here is a 2013 video of a design that looks like two Orcas flying in formation, the EADS unmanned Arctic hybrid airship
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLsiaIwmWOA

If I had money for a Space Company or Aerospace Company and wanted to test a prototype Mars Balloon flight around the Earth I firstly probably would not test it flying around the Northern Hemisphere, political tensions are high in the northern hemisphere and the Russians have been doing ASAT tests and shot down Malaysian Airlines a scheduled passenger flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. If you look at twitter feeds like Flight24radar you see commercial airliners and the Southern Hemisphere is very quiet, the bottom of South America is far less busy compared to USA, Canada, North America region, Europe, Japan, China, Asia also very busy, nothing in Africa maybe a few little Cessna but South Africa is busy and some of Australia is active but it is mostly open space, there is an occasional aircraft flying to the South Pole supplying some station so I believe the Southern Hemisphere would be ideal for tests of such Balloons. ESA already works with Argentina, the USA has a history of working with Australia, there are observatories in Chile the European Southern Observatory (ESO) National Optical Astronomical Observatories NOAO, USA and New Zealand which doesn't really have a Space Agency has Private Access to Space. There is some level of co-ordination and communication that would be needed with the UN or International Air Transport Association or FAA or International Civil Aviation Organization and different countries might have different reactions as a Balloon comes near their airspace, for an amateur non profit or science group there might be Balloon requirements set by the FCC and the FAA in case a Balloon goes off course and gets sucked into an aircraft engine only a certain weight perhaps no Cell phone interference from your balloon or only certain size allowed, no rope or cable hanging down or no dropping of object according to FAA rules. Your Balloon might have to be examined for resistance damage regulation because a Balloon on Earth could experience extreme turbulence in the jetstreams.

A long time ago dreamers from Greece and China and other civilizations wondered if we could ever fly, on Earth in ancient times people watched insects Ballooning, sometimes called kiting, a process by which spiders, and some other small Caterpillar trhow out a silk web parachute, to catch the air move through the atmosphere gossamer threads to catch the winds anicent sailors would report spiders arriving on their ship while it was thousands of miles from land and in our modern world spiders been detected in atmospheric data balloons collecting air samples at slightly less than 5 kilometres 16,000 ft above sea level, there was a time when humans thought no balloon could be better made than using dried animal bladders. The pessimist might say NASA's best days are behind and all is collapsing while Optimist will think Science will continue to advance in the future. Maybe you can make Ultra-Strong Material Based on Bio-Chemical process, maybe in the future copy and clone what spiders do with the Elastomers of Spider Webs. Nano-technology advances there might be Graphene spider webs or your Balloon might deliver Cranes or Lightweight Tools and Drills. In the future your Balloon might be self healing by way of Biomineralization, there might be ways to give your Balloon a stronger base or much stronger legs, maybe in the future the Balloon is super light and strong because of advances in biology and material science and nano-teach,it is bullet proof and tear prof and scratch prof or made of Spider Silk with Inorganic Nanomaterials, in the future a ship might be slightly organic or self heal.

What materials will exist, an Advanced Balloon with the latest nano-tech might only be supplied from Earth, it might be flexible with super high tensile strength and it could have sections of the Balloon harder than Spectra or Kevlar low mass like Aero-Graphene or AeroGel but even lighter and stronger again. The Balloon able to flex but also have hardened parts, its advanced drills and excavation equipment perhaps only made in a high tech Earth manufacturing facility. There are always new coats and fiber and material produced on Earth, cellulose fibers now stronger than steel and even than dragline spider silk, Carbon nano tubes or light weight Balloon covered by new material in t he inside and outside, advances in new designs for Nanomaterials, silk bionic material, new chemical plastic bio synthesis and applications, parts of the Balloon could be the strongest, most flexible, hardest material, harder than Graphene or Buckypaper Carbon nano tubes. Many science balloons are constructed of polyethylene film material used for plastic bags, a Balloon can have different skins, rooms and layers synthesized with a new catalyst, 3d printed structures of metallocene to improve strength, rocks and solar radiation might damage it could have UV-resistant vinyl material inside the Balloon. If the Airship Balloon is part of a drill excavator system maybe Wurtzitic boron nitride or Lonsdaleite Canyon Diablo meteorite I think it comes from meteor hits or Volcanic explosion and is harder than Diamond it can be used as a cutting drill tool lifted and dropped down from the Balloon, another option for a Hot-Air Balloon to deliver might be some form of Maraging steels are used the material science is used in aerospace and tools, they are known for possessing superior strength and toughness without losing ductility or Microlattices which can be 100 times stronger than regular polymers. Whatever material is picked I think the first Balloon must be able to fit into a small payload perhaps build itself and unfold like Origami flat space technology, perhaps make itself like a 'Miura' fold but pop out of a small sized payload shell like Cygnus, Tianzhou, Jaxa HTV or ESA ATV it could be something as simple as a Mars sunrise and memory material where the Airship changes to pre-deformed "remembered" shape when heated by the Mars sunshine, the Airship might build itself like JWST.

SEAgel is a material in the same family as aerogel but made from agar, can be filled with helium gas to create a solid which floats when placed in an open top container filled with a dense gas Parts of the Balloon might have a digger crane drill engineer factory section using Cubic Boron Nitride to machine elements as Diamond forms Nitrides with Iron and Nickle at high temp and with other parts of the Robot Hot-Air Balloon super light and stronger than a Diamond. Some art of the Balloon might have the least Earth engineering and absorb 'force' better, the future there will be Advances in Bio-Science Nano-tech could change a Hybrid Balloon in many ways, the Biomineral parts of the Balloon self heal and fix itself as an animal does. Some Dyneema braided rope or Nano-cellulose or nano Carbon 3d printed structure rope material might be used for anchor or lifting and dropping materials. On Mars once farm and labs are set up it is possible some materials like Nano-cellulose can be self made by Martian industry, it can be grown inside a Biosphere dome and the material is wood pulp it could be an alternative to glass and carbonfibre. If we can copy or mimic the Biological process of Limpet Teeth we will have something even stronger than bullet proof Spider Webs, it would also be wise to grow the spider webs inside a Mars colony rather than having this material shipped all the way from Planet Earth. The Palladium Micro ally glass might be put into parts of the Balloon to improve toughness and strength, Aero Graphite might be used to carry weight load, the nose of legs or AI robot computer section might be encased in something like a thin layer of silicon carbide used to battle tanks just in case of a 'hard landing' and low thermal expansion in case of fire or explosion. A material scientist might better explain what chemicals and nano-product to use for your Airship hot air Mars-Balloons depending on their resistance to other factors like heat and cold etc. There are also lots of 'Un-named' almost magic like substances being developed in Europe, China and the USA by researchers. Mars has Volcanoes and impacts so there might even be an economic model for a Balloon to go around and collecting rare material like Wurtzitic boron nitride or Lonsdaleite Canyon Diablo meteorite, making them into cutting tools and then a Balloon arrive at a Mars space port and shipping these Low-Tech cutter materials to Ceres or the Earth's Moon or Titan and Europe or others parts of the Solar system. If people send Balloons to Mars it could be the best science of that year, maybe the Balloons of Mars will lift far higher than 2.6 tonnes and maybe they will experience some very unique materials science that were not seen in the early days of Hindenberg.

Earth as a comfortable planet will always have advantages be a far more advanced place for production. There are areas of Earth that are geographically and economically dominant aside from the fact there are Treaties to protect the South Pole and Mt Everest has its own beauty there is a reason nobody set up a ship building port or motorbike factory in Antarctica or the top of the Himalayas, on Mars people will need to innovate to survive. Humans are forced to innovate with challenge, in its own way Amundsen's South Pole expedition was innovative learning tested methods from the Natives of the Pole, while Robert Falcon Scott had better resources and tech he was not innovative and creative enough to win his ill-fated journey, Mars might have to win with less technology and find something unseen when using whatever technology Earthlings have given the Martian. Once a Balloon system is proven and workable they can improve it with their own ways, might have to figure out a much with a hot air Balloon more simple and local system that works for them, a robot hot-air Balloon with far more simple moving parts. I would also assume complex issues of dust, you would need some kind of person or Boston Dynamics type robot humanoid to clean a Balloon which gathers dust.

Every time a Robot Balloon delivers it will save and win, if a Flying Fish or Flying Spider arrives it is mission success and colony success. Once it delivers 2.6 tonnes and then exchanges another 2.6 tonnes moving to the next destination the Robot Balloon will be saving the colony or space agency tens of Millions of Dollars or Euros or whatever Martian currency of your choice when the Hot-Air Balloon Ariship arrives.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-09-08 14:44:30)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-09-08 14:40:08

These link might also be of interest

I don't see much info on how these Balloons would change director or steer and deliver payloads but they seem to be successful weather Balloons.

First Antarctic Solar Weather Balloon Flight
https://www.liquisearch.com/solar_ballo … oon_flight
The first 100% solar weather probe, named Ballon ORA, was launched from the French Antarctic Dumont d'Urville Station in January 2011, by a joint team of students, scientists and engineers. The idea was to assess the feasibility of using solar balloons as probes in remote area, where saving the use of lifting gas, helium or hydrogen, would be precious.

Aerocene solar balloon gains 32 world records in 16 minutes
https://fai.org/news/aerocene-solar-bal … 16-minutes

The simplicity of a solar balloon draws upon the heated air expanding inside the balloon which has a lower density than the surrounding air and thus provides buoyancy. This concept is also adopted by hybrid balloons which use helium and heated air, with strong solar elements included in the construction to extend duration and contribute to a more efficient flight.
On a solar balloon, to aid the heating of the air inside, a dark coloured skin is used, as in the Aerocene Pacha design. If the balloon flies above a white or light colored surface, the internal temperature of the balloon is further augmented.
The first successful solar balloon design is credited to architect and inventor Dominic Michaelis in 1972 whose double envelope design was built by Cameron Balloons of Bristol, UK. In 1981 this solar balloon was used for a UK to France Channel crossing by renowned balloon pilot Julian Nott.
But before this, the first passenger solar balloon flight was made on 1 May 1973 by Tracy Barnes in his balloon 'Barnes Solar Firefly Tetrahedron' for which he was awarded the highest accolade from the Balloon Federation of America (but not the FAI) for a notable first flight for the solar balloon, as well as his important contribution to science and safety.
Prior to the flight of Aerocene Pacha, no solar balloon had officially registered a world record into the FAI sub- class of AT, as they had either used a burner along their journey or flew with uncertified balloons.

I found another paper that says Solar Powered Balloons should work, the black body absorbs all radiation that hits it. Real world objects are gray objects, with their absorption being equal to their emissivity. A special type of Black Plastic might have an emissivity of around 0.95, meaning 95 percent of all radiation that hits it will be absorbed

On Earth lifting, temperature, density, air mass.

68 °F, 20 °C 1.2041 kg/m3 7517 lb, 3409.7 kg 0 lbf, 0 kgf -

250 °F, 120 °C 0.8978 kg/m3 5606 lb, 2542.4 kg 1912 lbf, 867.3 kgf ^

Inflatable Robotics for Planetary Applications

https://web.archive.org/web/20100526205 … 1-0803.pdf

Using entirely solar heat, they are ideal for long flights at the Martian poles during summer or for shorter flights
at lower latitudes (Figure 5). Recent tests have already confirmed the ease of high-altitude deployment and
filling of these solar hot-air balloons. Furthermore, actual landings and reascents of solar hot-air balloons have also been recently demonstrated by JPL, using a novel, lightweight, top air vent that is radio controlled

Balloons on Ice: NASA Launches Antarctica Scientific Balloon Campaign
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/wallops/20 … n-campaign

The payloads and instruments are solar-powered, making this time of year an ideal time for balloon flights since the region experiences sunlight 24-hours a day during the Antarctic summer. In addition, a weather phenomenon during the Antarctic summer known as an anticyclone takes the balloon on a circular flight trajectory, keeping the balloon over the Antarctic land mass over extended periods of time. Keeping the balloon over land helps enable recovery of the payload at the conclusion of the mission.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-09-08 14:46:34)

tahanson43206 · 2023-09-08 14:44:40

For Mars_B4_Moon re #16

That is an impressive post, for sure! You even managed to slip in a tiny reference to this topic.

It appears I need to remind you this is a ** managed ** topic. Unlike the vast majority of topics in this forum, the topic manager is asking contributors to stay on topic.

In addition, it appears to be necessary to remind contributors that text that is not closely tied to the topic would be better entered into other (more forgiving) topics.

This topic is about using heating of CO2 to provide lift.

It is not about anything else.

We have on the table a very specific fact of the Real Universe to work with.

If you hold two US quarters in your hand, you will be experiencing the force that would be provided by a cubic meter balloon on Earth, at standard temperature and pressure, if the balloon is filled with Hydrogen.

Your task, as a contributor to this topic, is to work out what lift might be achieved if a volume of CO2 is heated in a vacuum chamber set to replicate the conditions of Mars' atmosphere at the surface.

I am moderately confident you will not be able to lift two quarters, but I do not know what lift might be achieved. Whatever lift is achieved must be subtracted by the mass of the vehicle you've designed.

All NewMars members are invited to work this problem, so long as the very simple guidelines are followed.

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-09-08 15:49:38

Tahanson I will use Celsius or m3 or Kelvin or Kg and meters just because I find it easier with numbers. Hydrogen at Zero C has a density of 0.089 kg m−3 per cubic meter (m3) Dry air with no water at zero C has a density of 1.29 kg m−3 cubic meter (m3) assuming you have an almost 'perfect' balloon no leaks of air and its weight balanced with a magic propeller on top with zero weight and you have no wind pushing your balloon down, 0.089 kg let's round that up to 0.09 and using hydrogen and 1.29 kg air you will lift 1.2 kg per cubic meter. A 1965 Quarter weighs 5.67 grams let's say 6 grams, so you will lift 200 coins using Hydrogen at zero degrees Celsius. The density of CO2 at zero is 1.977 kg/m3 CO2 is heavier than dry Earth air which is 1.29 kg m−3 so unless you pump extreme heat into the CO2 it will want to make the Airship fall not Rise. Tahanson maybe my post is too long but I said I would try remove CO2 from the Mars air as I think it would take too much heat and do not think it is a effective lighter-than Mars-air gas. I would consider using other chemistry and compounds in the mix, Ethylene, Water. Neon, Methane, Nitrogen, which have lower molecular mass. You left out information in your question, you have not told me what temperature you want the CO2 heated to so I can not do your calculation. On Earth standard temperature is defined as a temperature of 273.15 K (0 °C, 32 °F) and an absolute pressure of exactly 105 Pa 100 kPa but the NIST uses 20 °C or 68 °F. When you asked a search engine it gave you Oxygen 32 grams per mol and Nitrogen 28 so CO2 is a worse gas to do lifting work.

CO2 on Earth would make your perfectly balanced balloon fall, according to this online calculator in order for CO2 on Earth to behave like a standard mix of 1 bar Earth Air you need to heat it to a Temperature of 140 °C 284 °F K 413.15
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/carb … _2018.html
1.29 kg/m3
0.0887 lbm/ ft3
0.01186 lbm/gal(US liq)
2.76x10-3 sl/ ft3

You need to heat CO2 to 140 C or 284 F on Earth just to reach balanced equilibrium, two quarters so to lift 2 Quarters let's say 12 grams you will need to heat your Balloon above 140 C or 284 Fahrenheit and beyond.

Mars is colder than the South Pole the average temperature on Mars is about minus 80 degrees F or minus 60 degrees C

To be efficient you want to use less energy and using this heat on that mix of Martian air seems to waste energy, removing heavier gas will make a Balloon fly easier.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-09-08 16:47:54

I think the best way to get lift is to change the mix of Mars gas and it saves adding more heat.

If people are on Mars they might find it easy to relate to outdoor temperature and pressure. I was thinking it might be easier if Mars had its own standard for Mars-Temperature and other Atmosphere calculations but related to Earth. a standard for Mars might relate to Earth’s Middle Stratosphere ~36 km or 22 miles from the High Altitude Balloon Mission for Astrobiology Ames PDF posted above, just as Mars has its own Calendar or Clock it might have its own pressure or temperature the standard a 'Zero' on Mars might relate to the Melting point of 'Octane' or maybe Ethanol freezing point the Chloroform Freezing point or Nonane melting point it might relate to some standard at the South Pole where they measure temperature of −68 °C −90 °F water ice evaporates from ice to gas so quickly that it skips the liquid, liquid water is restricted to the range 0 to +10 °C or 50 Fahrenheit water mostly skips the liquid phase with the pressure so low, Fahrenheit of 97.9°F related to the 100 degrees Mark of the human body temperature or 36.6°C - 37.2°C.
Earth is Approximately 101 300 Pa or 14.7 pounds per square inch, Hellas Planitia can go as high as 1,155 pascals or 0.1675 psi but normally less than 1% The Mars standard could relate to Earth at 36 km or 22 miles, the boiling point for water on Mars or maybe the human body again.

Another older article however it discusses using a different mix of air 'ammonia'

'The New Aerial Explorers: Self-Inflating Solar-Heated Balloons'

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/the-new-a … d-balloons

"Solar-heated balloons can descend more slowly than heavier parachutes to drop off a payload, and yet they can rise again after the drop-off. They offer us bonus science because they can take off repeatedly during daylight hours, and land in hard-to-reach terrain," said Jack Jones, technical monitor for balloon activities at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif. "Our inspiration comes from the centuries-old Montgolfiere balloons named after the two French Montgolfier brothers who flew the first hot-air balloon by burning a pile of wool and old shoes in 1783."

Other balloons use ammonia, which evaporates with solar heat, and causes inflation of the balloon. Helium balloons can also potentially be used and can fly for several weeks, which is much longer than the one-day flights of the solar heated balloons. The helium balloons tend to be heavier and more complicated since they must be stronger and carry their own high- pressure compressed gas cylinders for in-flight filling. All of these balloons can be used to explore the atmosphere and large areas of a planet's surface. "Thus far, most of our work has concentrated on balloon deployment testing in Earth's upper atmosphere, which simulates deployment in the cold, thin atmosphere like that of Mars," said Jones.

This paper discussed Solar as a power source but not with normal air but with helium, 'Effusion' when a confined gas escapes through a tiny hole in its container 'Diffusion' another method were chemistry creeps in or out the tendency of molecules to move from an area of high concentration to an area of low.

Thermal performance of high-altitude solar powered scientific balloon
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 8118315301

'In this paper, the high-altitude solar powered balloon can be powered by thin-film solar panel laying on the top of the balloon.'

image for a moment we are ship and not talking about Balloons or Aircraft but Boat's and imagine the Low Elevated Areas is a Sea

what you want to do is somehow sail your ship along all the Low Elevations of Mars

This is not truly possible as there is a large gap between Valles Marineris or Hellas Basin Crater and the Low areas of the Highlands

but imagine you could make a thousands of miles long train or tunnel through any mountain

if the Balloon can not make it through the Blue pass, a train will take it from the Basin craters of the Mars South to the Lowlands of the Mars North

for a moment think of the children's game Operation but avoiding all the Red and staying within the Blue, "Electro Probe" the Hasbro hand-eye coordination of motor skills that looks like a board game.

maybe in a child like cartoon illustration it looks somewhat like this

https://ibb.co

https://store7.gofile.io/download/0dbf8 … 0-%200.jpg

Red is high elevation and the Blue area is Low

Mars has lowland regions of higher pressure atmosphere so you are only Joining the Blue Areas

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-10-02 05:24:08)

tahanson43206 · 2023-09-08 17:20:11

For all ... I'd like to see a post added to this topic, showing lift that might be expected from a test balloon sitting on the ground on Mars (or in a vacuum chamber on Earth) if the air inside the balloon is heated with respect to the outside atmosphere.

It is unlikely the lift achieved will be sufficient to carry the balloon off the ground, because the envelope will have mass, and the material of which the envelope is made must be able to withstand the forces that will be acting upon it.

Mars_B4_Moon has provided what appear to be examples of balloons flown at near-Mars conditions on Earth, and it appears that some of those balloons may have taken advantage of solar energy to increase thermal activity inside the balloon envelope, and thus to increase lift and therefore altitude. It would be helpful to be able to see numbers that must have been acquired from measuring devices in those balloons.

It would be helpful to know the exact altitude at which the balloons were flown, the density of the air at that altitude, the mass of the balloon including payload, and the volume (which will have changed over time) and the gas used for lift.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-09-09 06:34:00

For Calliban re Real Universe possibility for this topic ...

At this point, I think there are to lines of investigation that might yield value for our readers ...

First, addition of thermal energy to a balloon on Mars would certainly reduce mass of the interior of the envelope. What is not clear is whether the decrease of mass inside the envelope would be sufficient to allow the entire vehicle to lift off the ground in the .006Bar atmosphere of Mars. I expect there may be a linear function at work, which would operate over the range from ambient temperature to the melting point of the envelope.

If this interests you, please see if you can find (or work out) the numbers that would populate a chart. I am pretty sure there are web tools that can take in a set of numbers and deliver an image that can be stored in imgur.com, and displayed here.

We already have on hand a lift capability of hydrogen gas, of 42 grams per mol, or (about 11-13) grams per cubic meter.

We have an estimate that the lift of one cubic meter of hydrogen is about two US quarters (on Earth) but I don't know what that lift might be on Mars.

The lower gravity might yield a lift of 5 quarters, or it might be the same 2 quarters, or there might be some other lift based upon the nature of the atmosphere at Mars.

***
The second direction I would like to look is toward a gigantic gossamer wing. This is actually well explored territory, as you would know, but many of our readers will not have heard about before.

There are two examples.... a human powered bicycle successfully crossed the channel between Britain and France (as I recall) That vehicle was operating in the atmosphere of Earth, and it relied for motive power the exertions of a single highly motivated human being.

A gigantic balloon wing is envisioned by the entrepreneur who is working toward reaching space (low Earth orbit) using balloon technology. JP Aerospace is the name of the company.

The first stage is an airship that travels from the ground to 140,000 feet. There it will dock with a waystation floating at the top of the atmosphere. Cargo and crew then transfer to a large 'Orbital Airship' for the nine day journey to orbit.
Jan 6, 2020
Airship to Orbit - JP Aerospace
www.jpaerospace.com › ATO › ATO
About Featured Snippets
[PDF] Airship To Orbit - JP Aerospace
www.jpaerospace.com › atohandout
America's OTHER Space Program. 2530 Mercantile Dr. Suite I. Rancho Cordova, CA 95742. 916-858-0185 www.jpaerospace.com. ATO. Airship To Orbit.
JP Aerospace
www.jpaerospace.com
JP Aerospace is a volunteer-based DIY Space Program. Home of PongSat and Airship to Orbit. Airship To Orbit. PongSat. Tandem. Ascender. MiniCube.
JP Aerospace - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › JP_Aerospace
JP Aerospace are developing technology intended to launch airships into orbit. The proposed system employs three separate airship stages to reach orbit.
Balloon flights · Airships · Airship to Orbit project · Ascender
Is the "airship to orbit" mission profile feasible?
space.stackexchange.com › questions › is-the-airship-to-orbit-mission-profi...
Since JP Aerospace says their airship would take three days to get to orbit, this suggests a very high lift to drag ratio of over 300 ...

I think/hope that the huge winged shaped balloons imagined by JP Aerospace would work on Mars, at very low speeds.

Because this is the [Hot "air"] topic, and not the hydrogen or helium topic, I am hoping our members will be able to design versions of the huge JP Aerospace flying wing concept to work with heated gas that is expelled from the rear of the vehicle through vents designed for the purpose.

The input energy in this scenario would be provided by Carbon Monoxide combining with Oxygen carried in tanks below the envelope.

Follow up:

This page was last edited on March 31, 2021
JP Aerospace was founded by John Marchel Powell. Please visit our blog and facebook for more information.
2530 Merchantile Drive, Suite I, Rancho Cordova, CA 95742.
www.jpaerospace.com
jpowell@jpaerospace.com

(th)

GW Johnson · 2023-09-09 13:45:37

I took a look at simple spherical balloons on Earth and on Mars. I looked at a 50 ft (15 m) dia balloon 0.010 inches thick, of plastic film at sp gr = 1.135. That balloon materials weighs 464 lb at 1 gee on Earth, and 176 lb on Mars at 0.38 gee. You dare not heat the plastic above about 200 F or it will fail.

I looked at air, CO2, helium, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen, figuring their densities at 1 atm and 32 F = 0 C. Plus I looked at 232 F air for a hot-air balloon, right at the hairy edge of overheat. On a freezing day, it takes considerable energy release to keep the entire balloon volume filled to a temperature 200 F above ambient. There is quite a lot of surface area transferring that heat to the surroundings.

The volume of the balloon multiplied by the density difference is the buoyant force created by the gas within the balloon. The net buoyancy = buoyancy - balloon weight is available to carry payload. At those freezing-day sea level Earth conditions, I got 4451 lb of lift available with hydrogen, 4089 lb with helium, and 1063 lb with 232 F air. All on a 50 ft dia balloon.

The differences are far lower on Mars, more so by far than the gravity is lower. The reference is CO2, not air. I did this at 32 F = 0 C for a hot day on Mars, and again at -100 F for a cold day on Mars. I got basic buoyancy numbers on a cold day of 24 lb with air, 65 lb with helium, 68 lb with hydrogen, 26 lb with nitrogen, 19 lb with oxygen, and 38 lb with 232 F air (hot CO2 would be similar, but I did not compute it). Again, all on a 50 ft dia balloon.

Not a single one of these exceeded the Mars weight of the balloon envelope. There is no net buoyancy available to carry payload, not with any of them!

The density difference numbers are very small, leading to a very small basic buoyancy, precisely because the densities themselves are so small on Mars. The prime culprit is 6.5 mbar pressure, compared to 1013 mbar here on Earth.

You lose density a lot faster because of the near-vacuum pressure, than you lose weight due to the 0.38 gees.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2023-09-09 13:49:06)

tahanson43206 · 2023-09-09 15:06:23

For GW Johnson re #23

Thanks ** very ** much for you thorough analysis and report...

It is good to see the numbers for the airship on Mars, including all the candidate gases.

I'm surprised you got 38 pounds of life from 232 degree CO2.

***
The NSS North Houston meeting just ended ... Nathan Price was kind enough to take a few minutes to discuss your course. He opened NewMars and started the search for the class, but ran out of time. The meeting had ended and he is the Zoom host and chapter president. He said he'd come back to this next week, possibly Tuesday.

In addition, a member named David Cheuvront invited me to open an account on "discord" to talk about the class.

Nathan indicated he might be interested in taking the course, if he can find the time. He is in study to become a NASA flight controller, so doesn't have a lot of free time.

Thanks again for the definitive balloon study!

SearchTerm:Balloon GW Johnson comparison of Hydrogen Helium Hot CO2 at Mars (and Earth)

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-09-27 08:05:50

In light of Mars_B4_Moon's continued interest in the possibility that a balloon might be able to lift it's own weight on Mars, I have revised the title of this topic, and welcome contributions by members to improve our collective understanding of what is possible.

An example of a "balloon" with a very thin carbon based envelope is a soap bubble.

Per Google:

The three key elements of most bubble solutions are the surfactant (usually provided by dishwashing liquid or some type of soap product), a polymer of some sort, and water. There are often additional ingredients.
Ingredients | Soap Bubble Wiki - Fandom
soapbubble.fandom.com › wiki › Ingredients
What chemicals are in soap bubbles?
The favored polymers are polyethylene oxide (also called polyethylene glycol), often used in skin creams, and guar gum, a common food thickener extracted from guar beans. Polymers are important. The Soap Bubble Wiki states that it is almost impossible to make giant bubbles without them.
The chemistry behind how you make a record-breaking giant soap bubble
www.technologyreview.com › 2019/08/24 › the-chemistry-behind-how-yo...
Are there chemicals in bubbles?
How is a soap bubble formed chemically?
The Floating Soap Bubble | Chemical Education Xchange
www.chemedx.org › blog › floating-soap-bubble
Aug 21, 2023 · The aqueous soap bubble film solution is basic and carbon dioxide reacts rapidly with it, CO2(g) + OH–(aq) → HOCO2–(aq). The reverse reaction ...
C&EN: SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY -SOAP BUBBLES
pubsapp.acs.org › cen › whatstuff › stuff
Apr 28, 2003 · A soap bubble is a spherical layer of soap film encapsulating air or gas. The film consists of a thin sheet of water sandwiched between two ...
What's the Science Behind Bubbles? - ThoughtCo
www.thoughtco.com › Chemistry › Projects & Experiments
Jul 18, 2019 · Though soap bubbles are traditionally made from (you guessed it) soap, most bubble solutions consist of detergent in water. Glycerin often is ...
Soap - Exploratorium
annex.exploratorium.edu › ronh › bubbles › soap
... bubbles is evaporation: the surface quickly becomes thin, causing them to pop. Soap molecules are composed of long chains of carbon and hydrogen atoms.

Graphene is the name of a 2 Dimensional lattice of carbon atoms.

Also from Google:

It is often said that a single sheet of graphene (being only 1 atom thick), sufficient in size enough to cover a whole football field, would weigh under 1 single gram.
Properties of Graphene - Graphenea
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If a single sheet of graphene could be made (a big if) and as big as a football field (another big if) ** and ** shaped into a balloon (a ** really ** big if) then such a balloon ought to be able to lift itself on Mars if it is filled with hydrogen or helium.

I'd like to see some numbers in support of this idea.... a gram is estimated weight of a football field sheet of graphene on Earth, so it would be even less on Mars.

This study would NOT consider whether such a sheet can even exist in the Real Universe, or if it can hold Hydrogen or Helium.

All I'm looking for in the first phase of evaluation of the idea of Mars_B4_Moon (of balloons wafting on the Mars horizon) is whether such a balloon can lift itself at all. I would assume the answer is yes, but await some real numbers.

Let us assume that such a balloon (made of graphene) can lift itself to some elevation on Mars...

What elevation might be achieved?

What I'm thinking about is the equivalent of soap bubbles on Mars, with somewhat more resilient envelopes. What use these might be I have no idea, but at least if it can be done, it would give substance to the vision offered by Mars_B4_Moon.

(th)

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#1 2023-09-06 06:41:41

Balloon or dirigible for Mars "hot air" or gas filled

#2 2023-09-06 06:52:41

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#21 2023-09-08 17:20:11

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#22 2023-09-09 06:34:00

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#25 2023-09-27 08:05:50

Re: Balloon or dirigible for Mars "hot air" or gas filled

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