Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

RobertDyck · 2003-10-10 12:41:06

Robert Zubrin advocates freezing CO2 to separate it from Mars atmosphere, rather than using a sorbent. Argon liquefies at 1 atmosphere pressure at -185.9?C. CO2 freezes to form dry ice snow at -78.5?C. Carbon monoxide (CO) becomes liquid at -191.5?C at 1 atmosphere. Nitrogen liquefies at -195.8?C, oxygen at -182.96?C, ozone at -111.3?C, neon at -246.0?C, krypton at -153.4?C, xenon at -108.2?C.

Since the temperature on Mars gets close to -78.5?C every night and CO2 is so deferent from the other gasses, it would work very easilly for CO2. Separating argon would require cooling significantly farther, and below the liquefication temperature for oxygen, ozone, xenon and krypton. We may want to separte CO2 snow first, then do a multi-part gas separation. Separate xenon and store it for future use. Separate ozone and store it. Then separate krypton and store it for windows. Separate oxygen and mix it with ozone. Separate argon and mix it with krypton for windows. Finally separate carbon monoxide, the remainder is nitrogen and neon. Burn the carbon monoxide with the oxygen/ozone mixture to produce carbon dioxide and excess oxygen. That would consume half the oxygen, but leave no CO or O3. To avoid separating CO2 from O2 in the final stream, just dump the CO2 and O2 into the greenhouse along with the nitrogen and neon.

::Edit:: References Air Liquide and Web Elements and Solar Views.

RobertDyck · 2003-10-10 12:50:36

*And you know this because you've BEEN THERE ALREADY, right Mr. Spock?
Er...hahahaha, I meant "Robert"...
Yeah! "Robert" -- that's what I meant to say.
::flashes Vulcan Hand Salute then ducks quickly out of room::
--Cindy

That's right, it's measured by the instruments at my estate on Mars; built as the ultimate get-away to take women. Sorry, only single women allowed.

Palomar · 2003-10-10 14:50:18

Google tells me that eggs and milk both "powder" quite nicely. Find sponsors (Bis-quick or General Mills or the "Got Milk" people) to pay 100% of the cost to deliver these products in bulk - suitably branded, of course.
I currently believe finding sponsors to deliver "MiracleGro" in bulk could prove necessary. Good nitrogen fixing plants are worthless without access to the nitrogen to fix. Home Depot or any number of lawn and garden chains might well pay for delivery of their brands of plant food to the settlers.

*Bisquick would be great...you can do so much with it. Very versatile.

Got your pancakes there too, of course. And if strawberries can be grown, got your strawberry shortcake.

Cheese can be powdered too (like the powdered cheese packets in macaroni & cheese dinner kits). And if we can grow chili peppers on Mars...well, I could whip up some really wicked cheese and pepper biscuits.

Chili peppers make a great condiment, if you use them wisely with the food. Some people I know (back home, up north) still think chili peppers are spread on so thick that it overpowers the taste of food; that's because they don't know how to use them. They are a spice, really, or to be used in similar fashion...unless you like reaching for the fire extinguisher, lol.

Also agree about Miracle-Gro and etc.

Now what about spices? Growing the plants which bear cinnamon, nutmeg, etc.?

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2003-10-10 19:05:57

Cindy is absolutely right about chilli peppers, of course. They're an absolutely marvellous addition to all sorts of dishes and I, for one, find it hard to stop eating food with just the right amount of 'zing' from just the right amount of the stuff! (Never heard of cheese and pepper biscuits, though.)

By the way, what's Mr. Spock (thinly disguised as Robert Dyck) doing taking Earth women to his pad on Mars? I thought Vulcans were only interested in specific Vulcans for .. well ... you know .. !
Or is Robert .. sorry, Spock, some kind of inter-species sexual pervert?!
??? :laugh:

On a more serious note, the prospect of 'distilling' (or distillation-fractionating, or whatever they call it! ) various gases out of the Martian air sounds very practicable and I'm sure it'll be used in some way when we get our act together and finally go to Mars.
As we've discussed in these pages over the past year or two, nitrogen certainly does look like it might be a problem. There was a time when Mars was assumed to have an 80 millibar atmosphere of mainly nitrogen. How much better it would have been for us terraformers if that had proven correct! Now it looks like we're stuck with a fraction of one millibar, unless the crust has deposits of it and can be persuaded to release those deposits.
If we have to steer large, mainly ammonia, planetoids from the outer solar system into Mars, that will slow terraforming dramatically because of the advances in technology required to do it. In addition, how long will it take before the new ammonia-rich air can be converted into components more useful for human occupation?

And no, I'm not prepared to try the line: "Honey, I think you are worth your weight in ammonia!" on my wife!!!
Bill, you try it on your wife first and then get back to me ... after the doctor's finished binding your wounds!

RobS · 2003-10-12 22:29:47

Regarding apples, having been raised on an apple farm, I can tell you that the good apples are not raised from seeds, because they are hybreds. One needs to import to Mars a dozen or so seedlings; they need only be a few inches high. Including pot and soil, the dozen of them would weigh a kilo or so. Later, when you want more trees, you plant apple seeds, let the resulting seedlings grow to about a foot (30 cm) high, then you cut off the top and graft on a branch from your apple tree, which then grows into a new tree.

Hybred seed production for vegetable crops is another priority for Mars settlement after a few years. Seeds remain viable for maybe a year, so you'd have to import seeds every 26 months.

If you want sugar production, sugar beets are your best bet; they grow fast, produce in a few months (10-15% sugar by mass, I think) and the residue is good for animal feed.

I don't see a problem with chickens, rabbits, turkeys, and eventually cows. They aren't that hard to keep confined, and if your greenhouse is lined with stone walls for the first meter, they can't do serious damage (not to something that's used in bulletproof vests). I'd worry more about sedating them during launch and their behaviour in weightlessness.

As for fried insects, I have heard from friends who have lived in China that the Chinese fry up grasshoppers and all sorts of things and delight in watching foreigners eat them. So these foods are understood culturally. Gerbils and hamsters were originally domesticated as food. I understand people keep hamsters in their houses as live-in pets/future food.

dicktice · 2003-10-13 09:00:00

I would suggest goats in place of cows, because of size, agility, and milk products: I know, they smell different, but once you get used to goat-cheeses there's nothing better. Besides, goats are supposed to "eat everything," and the kids are so darn cute.

Bill White · 2003-10-23 12:13:32

Cindy - We found some bread for the settlers!

Follow through the links or a direct link.

Research suggests that wheat grass can be heated to 600C to make activated charcoal which is then used to filter incineration gases from the fiery disposal of feces and plant waste. Incinerate the waste and send the gas through the activated charcoal which filters out the nitrogen oxides and allows recovery of ammonia and nitrates - - fertilizer.

Anyway, to obtain wheat grass to make into activated charcoal you need wheat, which means bread.

Hazer · 2003-11-04 15:18:23

I kept bunnies for a few years. They were cute-but rabbits have this annoying tendency to die at the drop of a hat. I guess it makes up for their breeding-like, well bunnies. They are very vulnerable to disease and are difficult to treat if they get ill.
If you took rabbits to Mars, you would have to screen them extensively prior to loading them on the ship. Maintaining them would be very tricky. But on the flip side, rabbit is quite tasty and nutritious. Plus, you get a useful bit of skin and fur.

Palomar · 2003-11-04 15:56:29

I kept bunnies for a few years. They were cute-but rabbits have this annoying tendency to die at the drop of a hat. I guess it makes up for their breeding-like, well bunnies. They are very vulnerable to disease and are difficult to treat if they get ill.
If you took rabbits to Mars, you would have to screen them extensively prior to loading them on the ship. Maintaining them would be very tricky. But on the flip side, rabbit is quite tasty and nutritious. Plus, you get a useful bit of skin and fur.

*Trouble is, at least some kids in the colonies will want to make pets out of them. Probably some adults, too. Had a cousin who, with her husband, decided to raise rabbits for food. They ended up giving them all away -- alive -- because they'd grown attached to the bunnies when they were babies and didn't have the heart to kill and eat them.

That's me, too. :;):

--Cindy :laugh:

Hazer · 2003-11-05 01:35:38

Psychological attachment problems with rabbits are easily solved-don't let anyone handle the bunnies when they are young. Or even better, make them afraid of humans.

Then when the rabbits have grown up, they bite and scratch. Young children will be afraid to go near them-more then once. Adults will not relish the experience either. I had a rabbit like that, he chased people down and bit them.

Palomar · 2003-11-05 06:47:30

Cindy - We found some bread for the settlers!
Follow through the links or a direct link.
Research suggests that wheat grass can be heated to 600C to make activated charcoal which is then used to filter incineration gases from the fiery disposal of feces and plant waste. Incinerate the waste and send the gas through the activated charcoal which filters out the nitrogen oxides and allows recovery of ammonia and nitrates - - fertilizer.
Anyway, to obtain wheat grass to make into activated charcoal you need wheat, which means bread.

*Bill...thanks!

I saw your post last week, and forgot to acknowledge receipt of it (very busy and illness). Sorry!

--Cindy

clark · 2003-11-05 11:15:18

Or even better yet, make the humans afraid of the bunnies. Tell stories to the children about monster bunnies come to eat them in their sleep.

"Remember Billy, if a cow had the chance, he would eat you and everyone you love."

Josh Cryer · 2003-11-05 14:21:35

It's hard to fear something which you eat.

Vat grown meat is probably the solution here. I don't think the technology is that far off.

clark · 2003-11-05 14:39:56

Mmmmmm, vat meat. Just like the kind mom used to grow.

Now, who wants to lick the meat vat?

Byron · 2003-11-05 15:11:03

I think the obvious solution to obtaining animal protein in an early Martian settlement is to have fish...preferably varieties such as catfish that can be grown in extremely "dense" enviroments, saving on valuable space and resources.

Anyone ever have blackened catfish? Yum! I could easily deal with that 2-3 times a week if it was on the menu. Soy-based veggie burgers would be OK, just not every day. As for vat meat...I'm really not too sure about that... ???

If anything is grown in a vat on Mars, it will probably be celluose. Early experiments have already demonstrated that it is possible to create fibers for everyday use, ranging from paper to clothing, simply by having specialized microrganisms growing in a vat.

As for plant food (which we will need a good deal of,) I think high-tech hydroponics will be the order of the day, with such things as greenhouses in the shape of long, thin wall-like structures heated by strategically placed mirrors (which will also boost light for the plants.) This way, plants can grow in multi-level tiers, saving on valuable space. Ways might even be found to do things such as growing ears of corn, minus the stalk. (Or is this getting too close to artificial food, such as vat meat?? )

But when it comes to satistfying hunger, people can and will do almost anything to obtain food, even if it sounds kinda yucky to those of us living on a food-saturated Earth...

B

clark · 2003-11-05 15:16:47

Anybody ever spend time in a greenhouse?

Number one issue that they will be dealing with in a greenhouse, aside from air quality, is the effects of micro gravity, weak light, and lack of any natural wind to strengthen the stalks.

All of these factors lead to spindly growth, and less healthy plants. So yes, mirrors and additional lighting to mitigate stretch (plants grow towards the light). Fans on the plants to encourage stem growth, and lord knows what they will have to do to counteract micro-g. My bet is GM.

I kid about the vat of food, but it's a good approach. Considering what most people eat, no one is thinking about where the food originaly came from.

Speaking of which, time for an oscar myer hot dog.

infocat13 · 2004-02-24 22:16:24

space will be important inside a greenhouse you will not have alot of space.therefore growing many species in the same space will be important.the native americans new this.growing breans and squash that grow on vines that climbed on corn stalks was an ancient invention.nearby on vertical spaces would be vines that grow woody stalks such as kiwi or grape(wine anybody?) these wil need co2 to scrub ours and small mammals and birds small livestalk could be transported from earth to mars or there semen could be.rodents and small quaell and chickens are eaten by many cultures.This could be an ISS experiment what does make the journey well? goats if you have to have red meat and milk would be a bettter bet then cows as far as the transportation issues go.

here is a list of small livestock of possibal use.
[http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe … 2F337.html]http://search.netscape.com/ns....37.html
Oooops almost forgot bring cabbage, just ask the germans chinese and koreans this can be used in stir frie but also you can ferment all those ducks and geese and maybe the rats and other rodents you have brought!

GraemeSkinner · 2004-02-25 02:35:51

Food for both travelling to and from Mars, and whilst on the surface could prove to be a stumbling block. It will depend upon the activities whilst they are there, and the amount of time they will spend there as to if they build structures for food growth/production or take pre-packed energy type foods.
If we consider the long term aspects of being on Mars, food production will have to be simple to start with, and certain to bring returns for the effort put in. It would not be much good taking animals and means of artificial insemination only for it not to work or your 'Adam & Eve' animals to die before they give birth to any offspring.
Its true I'm biased (who isn't in one way or another), I've been vegetarian for around 20 years now and have not missed the meat either in taste or as a form of energy providor. If I had to come up with foods I'd like to take to Mars with me, it would be quick growing (I'm sure they can come up with quick growing plants in any form now with a bit of genetic modification). Starting with greens, lettuce can grow quickly anyway, you can pick leaves off whilst its still growing, it can also be grown hydroponically in 30 days or so. Other hydroponic plants I would have would be tomatoes, sweet peppers, spinach, squash, cucumbers, broccoli, beans, and herbs. If you have a steady supply of tomatoes, they're good for either salad, or pulp it up into a sauce for cooking, spinach and broccoli have both been proven to be beneficial for you health. I don't know if mushrooms can be grown hydroponically, but if not they can be transported as spores, they take up no space in this form and can be grown in stages providing a steady crop.
Rice would be a good fill up food (if I'm eating rice its not often I feel like snacking afterwards). Someone has already mentioned powdered egg, i've not tried it but it should mix up ok for an omelette, scrambled eggs etc.
I would miss potatoes if they proved too difficult to grow on Mars, roast spuds would be essential for a sunday night after a long day scrambling amongst the rocks.

Palomar · 2004-02-25 08:02:51

I would miss potatoes if they proved too difficult to grow on Mars, roast spuds would be essential for a sunday night after a long day scrambling amongst the rocks.

*I'd especially miss the butter and sour cream to go on them!

You've been a vegetarian for 20 years? I tried a vegetarian diet for nearly a month...it got rough (especially while dining out). I eat a lot less meat than I used to, but I can't be entirely without it (options, variety in cooking)...well, here on Earth anyway. :laugh:

What about edible **flowers**? Jelly can be made from violets, I know. I believe their stems can be mixed with salads.

I'm particularly interested in flowers, especially if they could serve the dual purpose of a bit of beauty (luxury) and food.

--Cindy

Josh Cryer · 2004-02-25 19:00:31

I tried out a vegetarian diet all of Jan. but I had to visit family throughout the month of Feb, and I gave it up. I think I may go back to it, but I dunno. It's actually not that bad, especially when you don't eat out as much as me.

I don't think mushrooms can be grown hydroponically, but I do think that a hydroponic environment could be conductive to their growth, just use the darkish areas underneath the hydroponic trays. I love mushrooms, and I would consider them one of the more desirable foods to bring.

RobertDyck · 2004-02-26 00:39:29

I've been looking at Mars soil. It's salty, alkali, and doesn't have any carbon or nitrogen, but all that can be solved. Just soak the soil in water, and drain the first water. That will carry away the excess salt. It'll also neutralize the superoxides, releasing oxygen. The water can be boiled to extract potable water; salt will remain. Then soak the soil and bubble Mars air through it. Mars air is mostly carbon dioxide, so bubbling it through water under pressure will create carbonic acid. Acid will neutralize alkali. That will still leave it nitrogen and carbon deficient. As I said in another thread, take Mars air at night, chill it a few more degrees so carbon dioxide freezes as dry ice, then take the remainder. Heat that remainder, add a little oxygen and run it through a catalytic converter to convert carbon monoxide and oxygen into carbon dioxide. Oxygen can be made from water with electrolysis, or from CO2 using heat and a zeolite ceramic membrane. The result is an oxygen/nitrogen/argon atmosphere with about 4% carbon dioxide. Excess CO2 is good for plants. Bacteria can fix nitrogen from the air, and plants like clover can fix carbon dioxide to create organic matter. This will build air and soil for a greenhouse from Mars atmosphere and soil. Water can be melted and filtered from Mars permafrost. Once you have air, water, and soil, you can grow any food crop.

Mushrooms are normally grown in manure; can they also be grown in composted stalks, stems and leaves?

GraemeSkinner · 2004-02-26 00:47:07

I tried a vegetarian diet for nearly a month...it got rough (especially while dining out).

Eating out can be a problem, but its starting to get better than it used to (frozen vegetable lasagne used to be the only thing on the menus).

What about edible **flowers**? Jelly can be made from violets, I know. I believe their stems can be mixed with salads.
I'm particularly interested in flowers, especially if they could serve the dual purpose of a bit of beauty (luxury) and food.

I've never heard of making jelly out of flowers, though it sounds better than its normal ingredients. I can see the benefits of having flowers on a long term manned mission, though perhaps many won't. They could give you something to remind you of home whilst your their, they might also improve the habitat area acting as a natural air freshener, and if you could add them to you food even better. Multiple use items that can be carried up all the better, less cargo space on the journey, but plenty of uses once there.

Bill White · 2004-02-26 14:22:39

I know I posted this before, so sorry for the repetition. You can make jelly out of kudzu! And the flowers are a pretty purple.

[http://www.krazykudzu.com/]http://www.krazykudzu.com/

Obviously, we don't know what will grow best on Mars but kudzu sure grows well in the southeastern USA.

The kudzu blossom jelly is made from real kudzu flowers. All the flowers are hand picked and hand stirred to made the best possible product. Each batch is FDA tested and approved.

Palomar · 2004-02-26 17:54:51

I know I posted this before, so sorry for the repetition. You can make jelly out of kudzu! And the flowers are a pretty purple.
[http://www.krazykudzu.com/]http://www.krazykudzu.com/
Obviously, we don't know what will grow best on Mars but kudzu sure grows well in the southeastern USA.
The kudzu blossom jelly is made from real kudzu flowers. All the flowers are hand picked and hand stirred to made the best possible product. Each batch is FDA tested and approved.

Oh brother.

Yep, you repeated the info...because I apparently repeated my question! I asked about flowers and etc many months ago; when I saw the word "kudzu" I remembered.

You're a good man, Bill White. Thanks for the reminder.

::scribbles note to self to remember this time!::

--Cindy :laugh:

Rxke · 2004-02-27 04:45:06

Not only that, but Kudzu is very nutritious (you can use the green sprouts, the roots etc off it)

That KrazyKudzu site makes it look like a novelty, eating the 'weed'... In USA it's seen as a 'durty weed, but in certain Eastern countries it has been used as a valuable source of food for ages...

(No, don't have the details, but read about it some years ago, and too lazy to look it up again )

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