New Mars Forums

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,818

Geologic Hydrogen Fitted Into Energy Grids.

As always, the management can get rid of this topic if they think it is not a good one.

Query "Geologic Hydrogen":
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Geologic+ … 819989ba94

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … %20surface.

https://www.usgs.gov/news/featured-stor … ion-energy
Quote:

A Global Perspective

To get a sense of the amount of hydrogen gas that the Earth may be storing, USGS research geologist Geoffrey Ellis enlisted the help of his Energy Resources Program colleague Sarah Gelman to develop a global resource model. Before they could use a model to estimate the amount of hydrogen available, they had to advance scientific understanding about the behavior of hydrogen in the subsurface. The pair used existing knowledge of analogues such as natural gas to fill the gaps in existing knowledge and develop their hydrogen model.

“Using a conservative range of input values, the model predicts a mean volume of hydrogen that could supply the projected global hydrogen demand for thousands of years,” Ellis said.

However, he quickly cautions, “We have to be very careful in interpreting this number, though.  Based on what we know about the distribution of petroleum and other gases in the subsurface, most of this hydrogen is probably inaccessible."

In other words, hydrogen supplies are too deeply buried, or too far offshore, or in accumulations that are too small, making it highly unlikely they could ever be economically recovered.

The good news is, if even a small fraction of this estimated volume could be recovered, there would likely be enough hydrogen across all the global deposits to last for hundreds of years. Ellis is convinced that the amount of hydrogen in the Earth’s interior could potentially constitute a primary energy resource.

“The key,” he said, “is to understand if hydrogen exists in significant accumulations that can be economically accessed, and if so, how to find these resources.”

I am glad to see the government involved with doing good for us.  Let's hope the leaches don't pile on to this too fast.
Image Quote:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsma … 8206bd61c8  Quote:

TRANSPORTATION
DAILY COVER
Forget Oil. New Wildcatters Are Drilling For Limitless ‘Geologic’ Hydrogen

I am sure we should be cautious about too much hype on this, but it is interesting to consider.

I believe that it is generally distinct from Hydrocarbons, and so may be a bit of a geopolitical game changers because of that.

The Hydrogen is Abiotic in its emergence, and so we might hope to find some on Mars, I speculate.

North America was almost torn by a rift valley, and I think there are chances of it there, and also from under the East Coast continental shelf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midcontinent_Rift_System  Image Quote:
Quote:

Geological map of North America showing the Midcontinent Rift in white, here labeled Keweenawan Rift. Lake Superior now occupies the apex of the rift; the section to its north marked "SUPERIOR" is the Superior Craton

I believe that the typical gas mixture is Hydrogen, Nitrogen, and Helium.  So, the Helium would have value as well.

I think it is obvious that if wind power can be transmitted to locations of Geologic Hydrogen efficiently then the two would partner very well.
Also, solar could be fitted into it.

Wind Power: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_powe … ted_States
Image Quote:
Quote:

Wind power resource at 100-meters

Image Quote:   Quote:

Offshore wind power potential in the United States

I note the wind power on the great lakes, so where I live, we have wind power from the Great Plains, and from the south of Minnesota and Iowa,   Of course Hydrogen would be very useful to work with those and very high voltage power lines to move electricity would help as well.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 08#p212508

This wind map is also very informative: https://windexchange.energy.gov/maps-data/332

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-08-26 10:54:10)

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tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,383

Re: Geologic Hydrogen Fitted Into Energy Grids.

For Void re new topic ...

Best wishes for success with this interesting and timely new topic!

There are posts elsewhere in the forum that might be copied into this one, if someone thinks they are a good fit.

It would be helpful if there were a simple, non-invasive way to find large repositories of hydrogen that may exist inside various Solar bodies.

Perhaps the existing science of sound wave analysis, used by earthquake researchers and by mining engineers, might be tweaked to deliver information about this specific material.

All in all, I think this topic has an opportunity to accumulate some very interesting links and associated comments.

(th)

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,818

Re: Geologic Hydrogen Fitted Into Energy Grids.

Thanks.  Here is some materials that could be moved or added here: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 08#p212508

We can expect resistance from the Egyptians descendants, as their social arrangements only honor verbal ruling classes.  Ruling Men over Women, Women over technological Peoples.  DC<Dublin<London<Brussels<Paris<Rome<Cairo.

They typically think that suffering of the lower classes improves their spirituality.  And they typically are the landed gentry and despise industry and are jealous of power from technology.

And of course, OPEC will not be fond either, as it is a competition to the market.

So, expect interferences from them, probably recruiting environmentalism as a tool of harassment.  Also attempts at protection rackets, where they use environmentalism to establish an estate of interference, and then try to bleed the victim.

When I mention DC, I am not talking about our elected governments, (Not always).

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-08-26 07:06:05)

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tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,383

Re: Geologic Hydrogen Fitted Into Energy Grids.

For Void re Post #2

What does Post #2 have to do with your topic of "Geologic Hydrogen" ???

There must be a connection in your mind, or you would not have taken the time to write the text and post it to the forum.

The title implies you are encouraging discussion of a particular type of atom found in a particular place inside a Solar system body.

I don't see anything in Post #2 that has anything to do with the stated purpose of the topic.

What I would like to see are reports of research being done by companies, Nations or academic institutions to confirm the hypothesis that these pockets actually exist in any locations other than those already discovered by accident.

(th)

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,818

Re: Geologic Hydrogen Fitted Into Energy Grids.

Alright your complaint had merit.  I have changed the title to "Geologic Hydrogen Fitted Into Energy Grids."

A bit of cheating for sure.

But let's look at Europe.  It is rumored that France has found a significant supply of Geological Hydrogen.  As UK/Europe have lots of wind, Geologic Hydrogen is potentially a dream come true.  It may be a very low Carbon footprint.

Now if the objective of the Green Movement is to eliminate Carbon, then they should be happy, very happy.

If the forces behind the Green Movement actually want to force deindustrialization, then they will be unhappy.  And I will want to see what tricks they come up with to encumber Geological Hydrogen with legal and social maneuvers.

It actually is a great deal of fun if it turns out that the Geological Hydrogen is available in the locations where wind and solar power work well.

Center of USA. Maybe East Coast of USA.  Maybe Atlantic Europe.  This might turn the world on its heat.

Some speculation has it that there could be hundreds of years of supply.

If so, then I want to see what the gentlemen farmers will try to do, and what Opec + Russia may try to do to interfere.

In the case of Fracking in North America, they went all out to try to kill it, using environmentalism.  But Fracking happened and the Carbon footprint was reduced.  Europe was not allowed to do it.

Now I want to see how this plays out.

It is a question of the Gentlemen Farmers trying to make Peasants out of citizens, as they have done though history.

I want to see if they can do it this time.

But really that is a side show.

If Geologic Hydrogen proves out, we will have plenty of energy, and any honest environmentalists will conclude that the situation is greatly improved.

Done

It is a fun social experiment if the Geological Hydrogen does prove out.  And it could be very frustrating for the principalities of power that will be pulled down, if it does prove out.

Done.

https://www.christianity.com/wiki/chris … bible.html

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-08-26 11:08:08)

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Terraformer

Member

From: The Fortunate Isles

Registered: 2007-08-27

Posts: 3,906

Website

Re: Geologic Hydrogen Fitted Into Energy Grids.

Given that it's very likely such sources would need fracking to extract (unlike oil, which won't immediately vanish if there's not a heavy and perfectly impermeable layer over it) I'm sure it won't take long for the Green Party to oppose it, should we find any.

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Use what is abundant and build to last

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,818

Re: Geologic Hydrogen Fitted Into Energy Grids.

I believe I agree with you.  A bit ago, it started to be published that Hydrogen is a greenhouse gas.

However, I anticipate that if such wells were directed to fuel cells to power the grid, the likelihood of leakage to the atmosphere would be minimized.

So, they might try to direct Hydrogen to methods to leak to atmosphere.  Then they can condemn it of course.

I maybe have a bit of psycho in me.  But this could be very entertaining.

And yet we may have a solution for some nations, such as North America and European ones.  I expect that many others.

So, how are they going to depress the children?

Life can be hell for jerks.

Done.

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Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,818

Re: Geologic Hydrogen Fitted Into Energy Grids.

I have a little time to chase my tail on this: "Serpentinization of Pyroxene and Olivine"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=%22Serpen … 3c1e83ccc9

I have been chasing this around off and on for some time.

Things I think I recall reading:
-The sand dunes on Mars would rapidly Oxidize if exposed to Earth's environment.
-Serpentinization creates Hydrocarbons in some cases.  Probably Hydrogen, and then Methane and then oils.  (When water reacts with Ultramafic rock, in conditions of Heat). (I think).
-Martian black colored dunes might have come from Cerberus Fossae.

I tend to think that the above is true, but it has been hard to collect substantiation of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus_Fossae
https://www.syfy.com/syfy-wire/mars-is- … d%20plains.
Pyroclastic Eruptions? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3521001779

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4523005/
Quote:

1. Introduction
Serpentinization of ultramafic rocks occurring in mid-ocean ridges, forearc systems, and terrestrial ophiolites (i.e., obducted/accretionary oceanic crust) on Earth is a geochemical and water-dependent process that results in a variety of gas and fluid species. Molecular hydrogen (H2) is the most influential and relevant species in the abiotic synthesis of organic compounds produced as a consequence of serpentinization due to its ability to reduce carbon (i.e., CO, CO2, equation eq1, equation eq2) and produce methane (CH4) and a wide variety of other

So, perhaps Cerberus Fossae may provide "Natural Hydrogen" if it could be drilled into, and of course there are some chances of geothermal energy as well.

A thing that I still don't know is does a mixture of dark sand dune materials and water provide a chemical reaction?

Now, trying to pry the mention of the words Pyroxene, and Olivine from scientific literature about Martian sand dunes.

Query: "Composition of Martian sand dunes, Pyroxene, Olivine"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=%22Compos … fd17f49f2d

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3516305930

OK, modest success!  https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/7142/colorful-dunes/
Quote:

On Mars dunes are often dark in color because they were formed from the common, volcanic rock basalt. In the dry environment, dark minerals in basalt, like olivine and pyroxene, do not break down as quickly as they do on Earth. Although rare, some dark sand is found on Earth, for example in Hawaii which also has many volcanoes discharging basalt.

I think a chemical reaction could be increased in rate by the addition of concentrated heat from the sun or nuclear fission.
I believe that PH may matter as well.

The left-over waste might contain clays.  It might be possible to make objects with the "Waste", and it is possible that Iron might be concentrated out by some means also, I hope.

OK, this is supportive: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41561-022-01063-5
Quote:

Jörg Hermann suggests that as the process of serpentinization leads to clean energy generation, metal separation and carbon sequestration, it could serve as a natural analogue for a sequential economy.

My brain is getting full.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sci … 6.3776.830
Quote:

Abstract
Ultrabasic (pH > 11) water issues from some fresh ultramafic bodies. The properties of the ultrabasic solutions are believed to be due to current reactions yielding serpentine from primary olivines and pyroxenes. The low concentrations of divalent iron. divalent magnesium, and dissolved silica from the serpentinization require an increase in rock volume.

I guess it may be true that sand dunes could be used in artificial reactions.

I am thinking that if Cerberus Fossae is the source of the dunes, then it may be best to investigate if that material is more unaltered so far by weathering.

Anyway, I feel that I have made a bit of progress in this post after all.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-28 13:10:09)

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kbd512

Administrator

Registered: 2015-01-02

Posts: 7,853

Re: Geologic Hydrogen Fitted Into Energy Grids.

It would be interesting to know if there's any combination of naturally occurring materials, combined with heat and pressure, creating a "natural reverse fuel cell" that releases Hydrogen.  Gallium mixed with Aluminum can create Hydrogen without any further input of energy, but there's not a lot of information on that, and Gallium is pretty expensive.  If some combination of ceramic coatings can create it with modest temperatures and pressures, that would be well worth pursuing.  As far as a "natural Hydrogen factory", I think we need more info to understand how pervasive this phenomenon is, as well as what it would cost to extract, before getting too excited.

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,818

Re: Geologic Hydrogen Fitted Into Energy Grids.

Yes, I guess if Geologic Hydrogen turns out to be significant on Earth then we might work to find it on Mars, if it exists.

Done.

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