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Mars_B4_Moon

Member

Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,776

Chemistry we can substitute for H20 Hydroelectric, 'Acetone'?

One sixth of the world's electricity is from the flow of liquid.

Titan is thought to be too far at the moment for a long duration flight, a crewed mission to Mars requires thousands of kilowatts of energy to initiate baseline operations of a simple village or pieces of machinery, Mars has movement, resources and natural activity maybe ready to make  in-situ resource or in-situ production plants.

2017 article

Titan Has Enough Energy to Power a Colony The Size of The US
https://www.sciencealert.com/titan-has- … -of-the-us

a new study says Saturn's largest moon, Titan, has it in abundance.

The next easiest place to put a new liquid or chemical Dam might be Saturn's Moon Titan or Jupiter's Moon Europa but could it be done on Mars or the Moon for example? a sealed Hoover Dam of lakes full of exotic chemistry.

On Mars it mostly participates tiny particles of dust, a little 'Dam' from the flow of 'Dust' is not practical you can perhaps using sand or dust power some very small electricity generator. At the opposite extreme, in real power plants, gigantic electricity generators are powered by steam turbines moving more like huge engines giant windmills driven using steam. The steam is typically made by boiling water using energy released from burning coal, oil, or some other fuel. On Mars with people we would need to create our Dome with own breathable air. However does a power plant need to have humans? let's imagine we build our own rain and our own dam and build sealed constructions, even Robot cars, Humanoid robots strange futurist looking pipes you find at Water theme parks. We can probably grow chemistry on Mars, crops and make Alcohol, the boiling point of Acetone is 56 degrees Celsius or 132.8 Fahrenheit, there will probably be chemistry like Benzene, the dry cleaner refrigerator Carbon tetra-chloride smell might exist in a production area on Mars or Ethanol or natures acidic vapor 'Formic acid' in chemical production. I believe we know the smell 'Acetone' is a nail polish remover chemical, highly volatile and flammable liquid with a characteristic pungent odor. Pipes might move water into an Artificial Lake collecting heat out in the Martian Sun, there would be Air-conditioning and moisturized air or droplets would move the warmer are into a cooler part of the Plant maybe inside a cool Martian Cave where it condenses and rains on its Lake.

The Water of Mars might be too valuable a resource to waste inside a Dam its possible other chemistry can be more effective offworld. The system maybe it would be a hazard to humans or maybe not but it would be self sufficient, having no humans or operated remotely with Robots or a future plant occupied by 'Cyborg' means you would worry less about keep it comfortable with temperature extremes that make life uncomfortable for people. Certain chemistry could damage lungs of a human but not damage a robot, chemistry could influence negative reproductive toxicity includes adverse effects on sexual function and fertility. Some chemistry is simply dangerous for humans to be around, skin irritation, toxicity, eye irritation or even death from long term exposure to such chemistry but a Humanoid Robot would be able to do working inside such a plant. On planet Earth Hydropower supplies one sixth of the world's electricity, almost 4500 TWh, of course you would not just have one Power source on Mars like Solar or Nuclear but perhaps design a system with multiple power choices.

Journal of Astrobiology & Outreach
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1707/1707.00365.pdf
Planetary Science Institute
Division of Planetary and Geological Sciences

The abundance of methane (CH4) increases with decreasing altitude below the tropopause at 32 km, leveling off at
~4.9% between 8 km and the surface . This small amount of methane is responsible for keeping the nitrogen in the gas phase;
without the methane, much of the nitrogen in the stratosphere and
troposphere would condense out . Trace amounts of other hydrocarbons, e.g. ethane (C2H6), diacetylene (C4H2), methylacetylene
(CH3C2H), acetylene (C2H2) and propane (C3H8), and of other gases, such as cyanoacetylene (HC3N), hydrogen cyanide (HCN), carbon
dioxide (CO2), carbon monoxide (CO), cyanogen (C2N2), argon and
helium are also present ; H2 is also present at larger abundances . Complex N2/CH4 chemistry involving photons and energetic
electrons in the atmosphere leads to the production of organic haze particles, which act as condensation nuclei and eventually settle to the surface as sediments (“tholins”). Titan’s dune fields are likely composed of organics that originated in the atmosphere. Methane/
ethane rainfall occurs periodically on Titan, and liquid hydrocarbons fill the polar lakes and seas. Water ice is available
in abundance and makes up the bulk of Titan’s interior . All of these species represent potential resources.

In practice, a nuclear source could be used to run an electrolysis plant while
chemical energy is produced via combustion separately. Alternatively, hydrogenation of acetylene  is a viable exothermic
option at Titan conditions, producing 376 kJ/mol of energy. Both acetylene and H2 could be extracted from the atmosphere; alternately,
pyrolysis of CH4 could be performed to produce C2H2 (though it would cost energy to do the pyrolysis). On Mars , sources of H2 include ferrous-ion reduction of H2O to H2 during serpentinization, and photochemical dissociation of H2O

Titan’s abundant lakes and seas of methane and ethane can be used for hydropower, by creating a system to make the fluid run downhill.

and

Due to Titan’s lower gravity, the power production is less than 20% of that on Earth, but the vast size of Kraken Mare, Titan’s largest sea, would allow for power production for tens of thousands of Titan years.

Mars also seems to be not totally dead so there could be some kind of exchange of heat through Geothermal

The PDF also describes outgassing and measurements of Enceladus by spacecraft Cassini.

QUOTE
Where η is the efficiency of the turbine, ρ is the density of the fluid, Q is the flow rate, g is the gravitational acceleration and h is the height difference. As an example, we use η=0.85, ρ=660 kg/m3 , and h=145 m. For the volumetric flow rate Q, the standard value used for water on Earth is 80 m3/s; given the estimated viscosity of the fluids in Titan’s lakes  give a range of viscosities on Titan of
0.003 to 0.03 cm2/s, compared with Earth’s H2O viscosity range of0.0084-0.0184 cm2/s, we estimate a range in flow rates on Titan of 40to 160 m3/s. The gravitational acceleration at Titan is 14% of Earth’s gravity, or 1.37 m/s2. This Titan methanopower system would produce ~9 MW of power (Table 2). In comparison, for a similar system on Earth running on water, the power production would be 97 MW.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-06-16 07:54:51)

Calliban

Member

From: Northern England, UK

Registered: 2019-08-18

Posts: 3,768

Re: Chemistry we can substitute for H20 Hydroelectric, 'Acetone'?

We won't be using acetone to store gravitational energy on Mars.  That is something that must be manufactured at an energy cost >100MJ/kg.  Brine is a possibility.  But at temperatures <0°C, it is likely to be too viscous to be useful in a pumped hydro scheme.  The most likely fluid is liquid CO2.  Whether this would be part of a gravitational energy storage or a thermodynamic cycle, will depend upon the capital investment required for each.

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"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,756

Re: Chemistry we can substitute for H20 Hydroelectric, 'Acetone'?

A question.

For major elevation differences, allowing the notion that sufficient piping were possible, on Mars can you Condense CO2 at a high elevation and drop it to turn turbines (Inside of tunnels and pipes), and then when at the bottom boil the CO2 and send it back up a pipe?  The vaporized CO2 might be hot enough to lift itself.

I have pondered this in the past.  An interesting point is that CO2 vapor at an altitude sort of is suborbital, but as it is likely to still be a viscous flow, with higher elevation molecules bouncing back upwards after bumping a lower molecule, to condense the CO2 is to extract an energy as the CO2 is at an altitude.  Granted, you have to compress the CO2, which is an energy drain.  But the nights and winters on Mars are rather cold.

It is a bit hard to visualize the reality of it.  But if you had periodic heat sources you could vaporize the CO2 liquid that came down the "Pipes", I know most here like to cuddle with nuclear so that then.

An alternative is to simply compress and liquify CO2 out of the atmosphere of Mars at a high elevation and drop the liquid down a pipe.  If you made the Nitrogen and Argon gas as cold as the CO2, with some methods you could make some of it dissolve into the liquid CO2, and perhaps at a fast enough speed you could make the bubbles of it in the CO2 travel with it.

Another vision would be simply to have a hot pipe and a cold pipe and do not deal with liquids at all, simply rely on differential density of a hot up pipe and a cold down pipe and allow the fluid to be gas only.

A curious set of considerations, I feel.

I think the last one makes it easiest to contemplate We know that on top of Olympus Mons, in the night it will get very cold.  But at the bottom we can use a energy source to then heat atmosphere up to flow up the up pipe.

Of course, these may very well not be economically practical methods, but they are interesting minds-eye visuals to me.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-16 09:45:25)

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