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tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,427

Dust - Mars dust - Moon dust - Earth Dust Engineering Response

This topic is inspired by a recent post by Mars_B4_Moon ....

As of the moment this topic is created, we have four topics that include the word "dust" in the title.

None of the existing topics are in the Science Index.

My hope for this topic is to collect useful knowledge/insight/best-practice and to make it available to future readers who actually need to deal with the issue.

(th)

tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,427

Re: Dust - Mars dust - Moon dust - Earth Dust Engineering Response

The post below was created by Mars_B4_Moon, in another topic, and it only incidentally mentions Mars dust.

Chinese rovers still does not wake

Dusty Sands killing rovers. One thinks to blow or dust it off but even Ingenuity, a helicopter and it has dust stuck to the blades. MarsDust destroys and it has still yet to wake up, maybe the Rover needs a little luck

China’s Mars rover is stuck sleeping after harsh martian winter

https://www.forbes.com.au/news/innovati … -sleeping/

I would like to offer the observation that dust is reported to have collected on the ** blades ** of the Ingenuity helicopter.

Those blades are by far the fastest permanently installed objects on Mars.

I infer from the presence of dust on those blades that the simple expedient of "blowing" is not going to remove dust from surfaces on Mars.

This topic is available for posting of possible solutions, or actual ones, if any are reported.

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon

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Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,776

Re: Dust - Mars dust - Moon dust - Earth Dust Engineering Response

I'm having trouble posting

edit

Something is getting blocked by the filter

Tahanson I heard talks of ideas on how to clean a Rover or Panels and read in the past of 'possible solutions', for example the blowing method but nothing so far seems to offer a real solution. It has been more or less concluded from debates in the Nuclear vs. Solar thread that Mars will need Nuclear Power as a source, especially if Mars one day needs essential power to keep its little towns or villages alive and it is to have a town with huge machines working on its surface like 'Giant Powered Crawler-Transporter' discussed by Kbd512.

This is an old news article from 2005, a lot of study and research has been done since

Solution To Clean Space Dust From Mars Exploration Vehicles
https://www.marsdaily.com/news/mars-dust-05b.html

Even before unmanned research vehicles landed on Mars, scientists knew that dust would become a problem, Clements said. "There's no solution so far," he explained. "The dust slowly accumulates on the solar panel to the point it can't generate enough power."

This one reference the Surveyor program NASA program and Russian Soviet Lunokhod

Lunar Dust: Properties and Investigation Techniques
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … Techniques
Surveyor 5, 6, and 7 (1967–1968) and with the astrophotometer of Lunokhod-2 (1973)

There are also Techniques for dealing with Dust on our Planet Earth.

Tahanson because you interact with Artificial Intelligence Chatbots and these bots can near instantly access papers and news posts in multiple languages across the world, this could be an opportunity to ask the 'AI' if it knows any research done into dealing with Dust Solutions and Response to Dust Hazard.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-04-28 05:30:44)

Mars_B4_Moon

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Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,776

Re: Dust - Mars dust - Moon dust - Earth Dust Engineering Response

Even a Helicopter gets covered in 'Dust'

NASA's Mars Helicopter Went Silent for Six Agonizing Days
https://www.universetoday.com/161667/na … zing-days/

Mars_B4_Moon

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Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,776

Re: Dust - Mars dust - Moon dust - Earth Dust Engineering Response

Here is an old report from 1999

A Study of Mars Dust Environment Simulation at NASA Johnson Space Center Energy Systems Test Area Resource Conversion Test Facility

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/19990063446

The dust environment on Mars is planned to be simulated in a 20 foot thermal-vacuum chamber at the Johnson Space Center, Energy Systems Test Area Resource Conversion Test Facility in Houston, Texas. This vacuum chamber will be used to perform tests and study the interactions between the dust in Martian air and ISPP hardware. This project is to research, theorize, quantify, and document the Mars dust/wind environment needed for the 20 foot simulation chamber. This simulation work is to support the safety, endurance, and cost reduction of the hardware for the future missions. The Martian dust environment conditions is discussed. Two issues of Martian dust, (1) Dust Contamination related hazards, and (2) Dust Charging caused electrical hazards, are of our interest. The different methods of dust particles measurement are given. The design trade off and feasibility were studied. A glass bell jar system is used to evaluate various concepts for the Mars dust/wind environment simulation. It was observed that the external dust source injection is the best method to introduce the dust into the simulation system. The dust concentration of 30 Mg/M3 should be employed for preparing for the worst possible Martian atmosphere condition in the future. Two approaches thermal-panel shroud for the hardware conditioning are discussed. It is suggested the wind tunnel approach be used to study the dust charging characteristics then to be apply to the close-system cyclone approach. For the operation cost reduction purpose, a dehumidified ambient air could be used to replace the expensive CO2 mixture for some tests.

Mars_B4_Moon

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Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,776

Re: Dust - Mars dust - Moon dust - Earth Dust Engineering Response

Watching Earth minerals, maybe a satellite to watch what is happening on Mars.

How NASA's EMIT Mission Will Help Us Understand Dust's Impact on the Planet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx8ZaWxg_fk

Mars_B4_Moon

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Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,776

Re: Dust - Mars dust - Moon dust - Earth Dust Engineering Response

NASA's Artemis moon astronauts may wear electric field spacesuits to fight pesky lunar dust

https://www.space.com/moon-spacesuit-du … university

Mars_B4_Moon

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Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,776

Re: Dust - Mars dust - Moon dust - Earth Dust Engineering Response

using little pebbles of sand and dust to clear other dust?

NASA’s dirty dilemma: How Martian dust is crippling space probes
https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/na … ace-probes
Dust has always been a problem when exploring Mars.

t InSight did manage to clear some dust using its robotic arm. Counterintuitively, it poured more sand onto the panels. This ran straight off,but not before sending up a bunch of dust already on the spacecraft. The procedure was done during the windiest part of the day, so the lifted material was blown away.

Mars_B4_Moon

Member

Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,776

Re: Dust - Mars dust - Moon dust - Earth Dust Engineering Response

New Study Addresses how Lunar Missions will Kick up Moondust.

https://www.universetoday.com/165874/ne … -moondust/

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: Dust - Mars dust - Moon dust - Earth Dust Engineering Response

The moon's lack of atmosphere and cold mars with barely any leaves using water to keep it from being a drift.

Calliban

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From: Northern England, UK

Registered: 2019-08-18

Posts: 3,796

Re: Dust - Mars dust - Moon dust - Earth Dust Engineering Response

On the moon and Mars, fines are known to have strong electrostatic charge.  Unfortunately, this makes the dust extremely sticky to any non-conducting surface.  Surfaces like solar panel cover glass or plastic domes.  We could wipe or wash these surfaces.  On Mars, this would need to be done quite regularly, certainly after dust storms.  The easiest options is to avoid relying on transparent surfaces exposed to dust.  If humans are living underground and eating food produced by artificial photosynthesis, then we won't need to rely heavily on sunlight streaming through windows.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-03-03 18:15:57)

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"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

kbd512

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Registered: 2015-01-02

Posts: 7,857

Re: Dust - Mars dust - Moon dust - Earth Dust Engineering Response

Calliban,

Unless we come up with dramatically more efficient artificial photosynthesis methods that can be implemented to on an industrial scale to grow food, the amount of power to do that will be astronomical.

Calliban

Member

From: Northern England, UK

Registered: 2019-08-18

Posts: 3,796

Re: Dust - Mars dust - Moon dust - Earth Dust Engineering Response

Calliban,

Unless we come up with dramatically more efficient artificial photosynthesis methods that can be implemented to on an industrial scale to grow food, the amount of power to do that will be astronomical.

The artificial photosynthesis experiments carried out so far use acetic acid as an energy rich precursor that simple plants and yeast can use as an energy source.  It has been tried and it works well for some plants, though not all.  This sidesteps the need for photosynthesis entirely for production of food.  We can produce acetic acid by carbonation of methanol, which in turn is manufactured directly from hydrogen and CO2.  In terms of the energy input needed per calorie of food produced, this is at least an order of magnitude more efficient than using artificial light to grow plants.  This is still under development, but even the progress to date is sufficient to ensure that staple food production is unlikely to rely on conventional photosynthesis on Mars.  Check out the life support section for more information.

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"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,427

Re: Dust - Mars dust - Moon dust - Earth Dust Engineering Response

For Calliban and kbd512 .... please continue developing this line of inquiry!   

However, I wonder if this concept "artificial photosynthesis" may deserve it's own topic ... perhaps in Life Support?

It seems to me that this process could be (and should be) harnessed right now on Earth to produce massive tonnage of food precursor that can be delivered into the existing supply chain.

The business opportunity is correspondingly large. 

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon

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Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,776

Re: Dust - Mars dust - Moon dust - Earth Dust Engineering Response

CU Boulder scientists set out to solve lunar dust problem
https://www.cuindependent.com/2024/04/1 … t-problem/

During NASA’s Apollo missions in the late 20th century, astronauts encountered the sticky nature of lunar dust, a pervasive kind of material that stuck to spacesuits and rockets– virtually anything that neared the moon’s surface.

“It more or less coats and covers every surface on the moon which means that no matter where you go on the moon you’re going to encounter it and you’re going to have to deal with it in various ways,” said Paul Hayne, a planetary scientist at CU Boulder.

Lunar dust is highly charged so it is attracted to anything that lands nearby.

“The charged effect makes it easier to stick on surfaces. So it’s very hard to get rid of,” Wang said.

Additionally these dust particles are sharp. Without wind or water, the moon lacks the same erosion processes that grind down earth’s dust.

The moon’s dusty layer is instead the result of meteoroids and charged celestial particles hitting the moon’s surface. Wang said these particles pose a safety risk to space explorers, describing them as akin to “broken glass.”

“[Lunar dust particles] are really abrasive, very sharp. They can cut through the spacesuit fabric so that would be dangerous for astronauts,” Wang said.

Hayne agreed. He also expressed concern for the health risks of inhaling these particles.

“Trying to keep the dust off of things is a challenge. And one of the reasons we want to keep dust off of things is that the highly reactive, shards-of-glass nature of the lunar dust means that it can be toxic,” he said.

The LASP team’s idea for their service station involves an electron beam that blasts away the static-y sharp lunar dust particles. Wang and his colleagues are continuing to solve this dust issue at a crucial time for lunar exploration.

NASA is in the midst of its newest set of lunar missions called “Artemis.” Future Artemis missions aim to bring insight into living on another planet and inspire future settlements on Mars. The next lunar mission in the Artemis itinerary is set tentatively for 2025.