New Mars Forums

Void

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Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,831

Beam Facilitated Processes In Space

Per a request of (th).

A sort of general response to the Subject Title: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Beam+Faci … ca96d18b63

The request from (th) appears in part in this post: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 36#p210436
Materials related are in posts within a small number of days, before and after that post.

So, then there would be projectors and receivers of beamed resources for various purposes, including power redistribution and propulsion methods perhaps.

I am having to repeatedly shut down and restart my systems for some reason.  Browsing becomes really slow, and extremely annoying, so I am going to depart for a time, but here is a start of topic.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-03 07:13:57)

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tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,440

Re: Beam Facilitated Processes In Space

For Void re new Topic!

Thank you for creating this new topic, dedicated to one of the many technologies you have explored over the years,

Best wishes for success, not only for attracting contributions to enhance the topic for readers, but for finding promising solutions for more efficient space propulsion methods than are available today.

(th)

Void

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Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,831

Re: Beam Facilitated Processes In Space

I suppose starting with materials from others that are not strictly fantasy would be a good thing.

This one is actually very believable, and so demonstrates that the idea is not without merit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_Starshot
Quote:

Breakthrough Starshot is a research and engineering project by the Breakthrough Initiatives to develop a proof-of-concept fleet of light sail interstellar probes named Starchip,[1] to be capable of making the journey to the Alpha Centauri star system 4.37 light-years away. It was founded in 2016 by Yuri Milner, Stephen Hawking, and Mark Zuckerberg.[2][3]

A flyby mission has been proposed to Proxima Centauri b, an Earth-sized exoplanet in the habitable zone of its host star, Proxima Centauri, in the Alpha Centauri system.[4] At a speed between 15% and 20% of the speed of light,[5][6][7][8] it would take between 20 and 30 years to complete the journey, and approximately 4 years for a return message from the starship to Earth.

The conceptual principles to enable this interstellar travel project were described in "A Roadmap to Interstellar Flight", by Philip Lubin of UC Santa Barbara.[9][10] Sending the lightweight spacecraft involves a multi-kilometer phased array of beam-steerable lasers with a combined coherent power output of up to 100 GW.[11]

And Isaac Arthur has notions of "Lasser Highways": https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … M%3DHDRSC4

Here I think we might try to lower ambitions, and see if it can be done in some way Earth<>Moon, and then inside the solar system perhaps.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-03 11:07:29)

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tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,440

Re: Beam Facilitated Processes In Space

For Void re topic ....

The purpose of this post is to offer encouragement to continue this thought:

Here I think we might try to lower ambitions, and see if it can be done in some way Earth<>Moon, and then inside the solar system perhaps.

While you develop your vision for the Earth<>Moon package shipment market, please let the thought of Mars linger in the background.

The moon Phobos often appears in your writings.

A powerful laser beam generator needs to operate in a vacuum, and preferably on a solid body.  The Moon and Phobos could serve as the base of operations for high velocity high value package delivery.

You have already provided the framework for what I am sure will become a major industry, with your invention that led to the lithobraking package delivery topic we have stored in the Archive.

It seems possible to me that this topic may serve as the fertile soil for another future industry, in which a high speed delivery service is established for service between Earth and Mars.

(th)

Void

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Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,831

Re: Beam Facilitated Processes In Space

Beamed power is not yet is, is not yet.  But it may come

Lasers are a thing, I guess, and microwaves as well.

I seem to be running into something that involves particles of Matter AND Lasers.  Really weird, I don't understand it much.  Apparently, the matter helps keep the Laser beam in focus, and the photons push the matter.  I don't understand it well at all.  Here is an article that seems to be on that line: https://tees.tamu.edu/news/2018/05/comb … 20velocity.  Quote:

For half a century, researchers around the globe have been studying laser-beamed propulsion technologies for interstellar travel. In this concept, thrust is generated by the reflection of light off the spacecraft. Unlike conventional rockets, spacecraft accelerated by beams of light or matter do not require their own propellant or propulsion energy source, enabling incredibly high final velocity. The disadvantage of such concepts is that as the spacecraft gets farther away, the beams spread out, or diffracts, into the vacuum of space. This results in less thrust over time as the beam pushes less and less effectively.

Limbach and Hara are looking at a revolutionary way to overcome this fundamental problem by combining the light beam with a particle beam that simultaneously reduces the spreading effects are simultaneously reduced for both beams.

The primary value of the PROCSIMA system is the game-changing, high-mass capability in the acceleration phase, provided by the greatly extended distance over which a laser can provide photon thrust. The PROCSIMA concept also maintains a tight 8-meter beam size over the entire acceleration phase, reducing the required size of the laser transmitter. An advantage of this research is that it brings together technologies developed by the fusion community, as well as aspects of photonics and telecommunications.

More: https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/space … /PROCSIMA/

So, in realty we may want to project matter and/or energy.  Apparently, they are siblings anyway.

So, any projector applies to this topic.  Any receiver applies to this topic.

Technically Starship self-projects itself somewhere and receives itself to somewhere. (Sort of true).

Solar energy on the Moon might be called Calendar and Clockwork Solar energy.  With calculations it is very predictable relative to the situation for Earth or Mars.  So, we might want to project a reflection of solar energy from the Moon to an orbital propulsion device.  The array of Heliostats for that could be on the Moons surface and together they could move their focus as the propulsion device would move in orbit.

So, various methods to use that concentration of energy projected to a receiver, can be considered.  Obviously, a Photon Sail system.  Also if you could convert the light into electricity then you might sail a propulsion device on magnetic bubbles, sailing on the plasma matter of the solar wind.

We do have a concept for a Matter Projector, and we called it so far a Mass Driver.  The 70's version tossed out bags of regolith to be received in the "L5" location I believe.

Oxygen and Iron are two possible things to shoot out of a ship.  Iron makes more of a mess.  Only suitable if it will crash down into the Moon again, or to some other place where it will not block shipping lanes.

I have worked towards something that uses more processed loads.  I have mentioned it before.

A weird one that I am thinking about just now would be a cup in orbit with a magnetic rubble lining the inside of the cup.  A Magnetic field encompassing it, (The Cup).  Then shoot very fine magnetic dust at it from the surface of the Moon hoping to catch it.  The dust particles preferably would have a magnetic portion and a portion that had Oxygen bonded into Oxides.  This device might also sail on the solar wind when convenient, but if it could catch these dust grains, it also could shoot them out as well.  But I think collected materials would be quite valuable.  If necessary, the cup might be suspended on a tether, to make the circular orbital speed of the cup, better match the elliptical path of the dust projected up from the Mass Driver.  But of course, you need energy as well to create the magnetic field for the magnetic bubble to sail on the solar wind.  So, you might want to project energy to the device at the same time or at different time intervals.  Maybe we can get something like that to work eventually.  It is technically Lithobraking into a cup, but the Magnetic Field catches the iron as well, if it is not heated above its curie point.

But another thing I want is to be able to deliver substances like Ammonia to the surface of the Moon, to increase its habitability for humans.  But that wants solving still.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-03 20:41:41)

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tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,440

Re: Beam Facilitated Processes In Space

For Void re #5

Thank you for bringing this NASA grant to our attention!

I am glad to see someone at NASA is carefully selecting forward looking proposals like this to fund!

The phase 1 study lasts for nine months with a grant of $125,000. After phase 1, they will apply for phase 2, which would fund a more detailed investigation of the mission architecture with a grant of up to $500,000 over a span of two years.

“One aspect of this project is simply the excitement and potential to inspire others to take a serious look at this innovative concept,” Limbach said. “Interstellar travel is an exciting and difficult problem, and if we can get this solution to work it opens up not just sending microscopic payloads to the stars, but actually sending larger, perhaps human-scale types of missions.”

The NASA Innovative Advanced Concepts Program nurtures visionary ideas that could transform future NASA missions with the creation of breakthroughs — radically better or entirely new aerospace concepts — while engaging America’s innovators and entrepreneurs as partners in the journey. The program seeks innovations from diverse and nontraditional sources and NIAC projects study innovative, technically credible, advanced concepts that could one day “change the possible” in aerospace.

I'm interested because such technology could be used to achieve rapid movement of high value cargo inside the Solar System.

That 8 meter diameter beam seems (to me at least) like an interesting size.  It might be useful for power transfer in space, aside from potential value for propulsion.

(th)

Steve Stewart

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From: Kansas City (USA)

Registered: 2019-09-21

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Re: Beam Facilitated Processes In Space

Void, I wasn't sure where to post this. In your thread "Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff" post#1090 you mentioned "beamed power." This is a news article from Gizmodo that was just posted Friday. I thought this might be of interest to you.

Scientists Successfully Transmit Space-Based Solar Power to Earth for the First Time

Void

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Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,831

Re: Beam Facilitated Processes In Space

A very good addition Steve Stewart.  We live in amazing times.

I hope we will see all of this mover forward to delivered product, in our lifetimes.

Done.

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Void

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Registered: 2011-12-29

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Re: Beam Facilitated Processes In Space

Well this fits here, I think.  I feel he does a good job of explaining.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheAngryAstron … _ten_days/
Quote:

Faster than nuclear! Earth to Mars in ten days with NASA Photon Pellet Drive!!

Something else that occurred to me is that if the nanoparticles can be delivered to a Lunar Ring for instance, it might not only alter the rings rotation speed, but the mass might be collected at the ring.  So, then this might be a photon mass driver.  Don't know if the laser could push the nanoparticles enough to rise in the Moons gravity well though.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-04 22:01:46)

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Void

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Re: Beam Facilitated Processes In Space

A nice presentation by "The Angry Astronaut".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGCpDUTJ4oY
Quote:

Earth to Jupiter in 3 weeks!! New NASA Magsail Drive!!

I am interested in joining this notion to beamed power.

Around the Moon a simple means of "Beaming Power" could be arrays of Heliostats, reflecting sunlight.  If the target device could work with high temperatures, then it would have a high density power supply to generate electricity to power the magnetic sail.

It is debatable how much this is beamed power, but it is a close relative anyway.

An alternative is to beam power with Lasers or Microwaves.  These beam projectors could be on the Moon, but maybe elsewhere as well.

In a sun orbit it is easier to fly away from the Earth than towards it I believe.  You can more easily fly in the direction of the solar wind.

But with the Moon the physical orientation of the solar wind to the craft would change over one orbit of the Moon around the Earth.

Of course, at times, the Moon is inside the Earth's magnetotail.  I think that offers some interesting possibilities as well.

So, these might be useful to move mass around, such as chemical propellants or Argon, or Oxygen for a ships Mass Driver.

Anyway, I like his presentation.

Done.

I think that the Earth's magnetic field extends out a bit beyond geosynchronous orbit, so this would not accelerate within that field, but might do some braking/orbital path modification.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-05 11:10:57)

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Calliban

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From: Northern England, UK

Registered: 2019-08-18

Posts: 3,796

Re: Beam Facilitated Processes In Space

Given that the moon has no atmosphere and no appreciable magnetic field, I have wondered about the possibility of using plasma beams to levitate magnetic sails from the surface to escape velocity.  A relatively simple electrostatic accelerator should do the trick, as the plasma particles do not need very high energy, but current needs to be high.  The lunar vacuum and non-conducting regolith, allows accelerators to be built as charged meshes.  The +Ve mesh would be on the ground and weighted down with rocks.  The -Ve mesh would be suspended from poles.  The ions would ideally be something that is abundant on the moon, with a low first ionisation energy per unit mass.  Calcium appears to be a good candidate.
https://chemguide.co.uk/atoms/properties/ies.html

If we charge the mesh to a potential difference of about 700kV and boil molten calcium in containers on the ground, the anode will strip electrons from the calcium vapour atoms, causing the ions to race towards the suspended cathode.  At a PD of 700kV, calcium atoms with mass 40amu, will reach the cathode with velocity 1800km/s.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-06-05 19:12:10)

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"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Void

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Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,831

Re: Beam Facilitated Processes In Space

An idea that needs to be tried, I would hope.
Thanks Calliban.

We suddenly seem to be in a time of great potentials I feel.

If we launch how about landing in a similar way?

Also,
If you had a South Pole pointed down on a dipole ship and had a circle of magnets pointing North Poles up could that also work as the final catch?  Maybe???

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-05 20:54:31)

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Mars_B4_Moon

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Re: Beam Facilitated Processes In Space

Japan will try to beam solar power from space by 2025

The technology is appealing because orbital solar arrays represent a potentially unlimited renewable energy supply.

https://www.engadget.com/japan-will-try … 38244.html