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#2901 2023-05-08 06:18:28

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,872

Re: Housekeeping

For SpaceNut re request by Mr. Stewart to publish in the Mars Society Papers section. The request is here:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 00#p209500
Please let Mr. Burk know the work is available for the Mars Society.

It is possible you have already initiated communication with Mars Society, but I didn't see anything in your posts yesterday to indicate you'll be working on this. If you would prefer to delegate that responsibility to another member of your leadership team, please let us know Monday evening at the latest.  Steve has made a reasonable request and I'd like to see us do whatever we can to expedite whatever process is involved.

Update a few minutes later .... you are off the hook!  Mr. Burk is currently participating in an MDRS expedition.

It turns out that Steve Stewart can submit his paper directly to the Mars Papers section of the Mars Society web site.

However, if you know of other venues where Steve's work would be welcome and appropriate, please let him know.

(th)

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#2902 2023-05-10 10:51:14

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,872

Re: Housekeeping

For SpaceNut re Email Outreach ...

You may receive more than one confirmation email today.  I'm testing the new communications software recently added to WBA.  In the midst of that, something else has been interfering with normal flows on the Internet .... It's been a while since I checked the local modem to see if it might be clogged.  In any case, I've had to restart the send script multiple times.

Update a few minutes later: I'm getting packet loss so will reset the modem.

Update later on after some debugging (and more email attempts) .... the resolution of the problem turns out to be baud rate ...

For the past couple of years, I've been running the physical serial loop at 4800 baud.  That seemed plenty fast to me, even though the software offered 115K as an option.  However, changing to the new communications module (written in C#) revealed a problem with that slow rate .... I increased the rate to 57.6K and everything seems to be working.  The C# program turns over responsibility for communications to a thread, and it was failing to complete the send by the time the sending program "thought" the send should have been completed.  I tested the faster rate with the physical loop, and it was happy, so I'll leave it there.

(th)

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#2903 2023-05-11 12:59:20

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,872

Re: Housekeeping

For SpaceNut re Email Outreach ... nothing is planned for today ... time is going elsewhere...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/hampshire-ut … 17104.html

Of possible interest to NewMars members ...

New Hampshire utility proposes transmission line from Canada to carry renewable power to New England

FILE - Vermont Electric Power Company transmission lines are seen on Feb. 8, 2012, in Waterbury, Vt. A New Hampshire electric utility is offering a new proposal for an electrical transmission line from Canada that would carry renewable power to New England. The proposed 211-mile, $2 billion Twin State Clean Energy Link would enter the United States in Canaan, Vt. (AP Photo/Toby Talbot, File) (ASSOCIATED PRESS)
6
WILSON RING
Wed, May 10, 2023 at 6:17 PM EDT
The newest proposal for a major electrical transmission line from Canada that would be able to carry power to New England from Canada, would also be able to send to Quebec renewable energy produced by future power generators off the New England coast or other sources.

The proposed 211-mile, $2 billion Twin State Clean Energy Link would enter the United States in Canaan, Vermont. It would be buried along state highways in Vermont and New Hampshire until it linked to an existing transmission corridor in Monroe that would carry the power to a new substation in Londonderry. From there the power could be distributed throughout New England.

“You can think about the Twin States line almost like battery storage -- the line would not need to be ‘always on’ and delivering energy from Quebec to New England,” said a statement from the electric utility National Grid, one of the developers of the proposed New Hampshire project. “Instead, it would be used when there is a need to bring additional clean energy to the region to balance variable resources, such as offshore wind.”

Unlike much of the power currently brought to the United States from Canada that is generated by hydro generation facilities in Quebec, it would also have the ability to deliver power generated by wind and solar facilities in Canada.

In a statement, Hydro-Quebec said cross-border infrastructure optimizes the use of renewable energy, hydro, wind and solar, in Quebec and the Northeastern United States.

“Even though HQ is not involved with the Twin States project, this project’s business model is a demonstration of how the energy transition is taking shape in our broader region,” the statement said.

For years the Northeastern United States has tried to find ways to take advantage of hydropower produced in Canada and Canadian officials have been eager to sell power in the U.S.

As part of that Hydro-Quebec has agreed to a 25-year contract to sell power for use in New York City via the under-construction Champlain Hudson Power Express. Hydro-Quebec has also agreed to send power to Massachusetts via the stalled New England Clean Energy Connect through Maine.

But now Quebec has its own clean energy needs and doesn't have power to spare for another major line to the U.S. and the focus is changing to shared power.

If approved, the earliest the New Hampshire project could begin construction would be 2026.

(th)

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#2904 2023-05-11 18:30:40

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,190

Re: Housekeeping

The game of bringing power from this hydro project so far has played down through NH and Maine to not being successful and its now moved onto Vermont. The promise of cheaper power is not for its customers but for the utility company so as to keep profit margins fat.

Edit
I removed my content and its totally gone.

When an you look at the pretty flow diagrams and you question how the power types are connected and balanced between units you find a DC to AC convertor that cannot provide the power to the second then there is a problem. There is also another problem with that type of invertor in the CE5 as you cannot grid tie them together as they are not in phase with each other to get higher levels of power. This problem only gets higher with more mismatch systems that require other AC or DC sources that you do not have. Also, the second flow has mechanical energy and this unit does not have any as it's a pressure movement flow rate system.

There is also with just these two systems other mismatches to use the green cell room as storage of co2 as the concentration will cause the plants to die from too high of a level for the plants. That same concentration rise comes from a unit that outputs it at a higher rate than we can convert with the other as it must be first extracted, compressed and cooled before the Sabatier can be used. The same hold true for the output of the water which is also with no storage to all for the electrolysis as well as to compress it as well for creating methane in the super-hot chamber of the reactor.

Then to not care about the difference in efficiency of operation just makes the need for replacement energy and gases plus equipment just further compounds the issue.

There is no storage tanks for any of these or the equipment to perform the function and not enough power of the correct format to make them work at a balanced rate so as to satisfy the needs of the cell. With the lean jet line concept that is being want from lean engineering. Oh and #8 is exactly what i just gave in,

Lean Concepts and the 8 Wastes

1 Overproduction Designing or supporting a product or service no one wants is waste. ...
2 Non-Value Added Processes In broad terms, non-value added processing is anything that adds unnecessary steps to any procedure. ...
3 Motion Minimizing energy and time helps minimize waste. ...
4 Transportation ...
5 Inventory ...
6 Defects ...
7 Waiting ...
8 Unused Employee Creativity ...

Most people think time is a lean concept but in actuality not, it is a symptom of a problem. Also in a "Kanbanize" system of lean a small undocumented change of practice, policy or procedures means later failure as time goes on.

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#2905 2023-05-13 19:17:26

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,872

Re: Housekeeping

For SpaceNut (primarily - all others welcome) ...

After a delay of over a year, I finally have WBA running on a "modern" 64 bit machine, using a Virtual Communications utility.  The solution was provided by a generous programmer who wrote a communications utility in C#.  Unlike the ancient Microsoft utility I'd been using, the newer software is able to function well without the hardware interface.  I ran a short sequence of the Pothole finder, and the program performed well.  A detail is that the mouse position has to be recalibrated for the screen layout on the newer machine, but the Mouse Position utility I wrote is able to provide the adjustments needed.

I'm encouraged by this development, because I need to run software to automate ChatGPT setup on the newer machine, and it appears the basics are in place.  I need to add new commands to the program, to perform operations unique to working with ChatGPT, so I'll be working on those updates over the next couple of days.

(th)

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#2906 2023-05-23 17:19:07

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,872

Re: Housekeeping

For SpaceNut .... today's scan over the most recent 1000 posts found 14 potholes.

SK: Skipping to Next Item from Post ID: 209507 pothole
SK: Skipping to Next Item from Post ID: 209573 pothole
SK: Skipping to Next Item from Post ID: 209618 pothole
SK: Skipping to Next Item from Post ID: 209654 pothole
SK: Skipping to Next Item from Post ID: 209655 pothole
SK: Skipping to Next Item from Post ID: 209656 pothole
SK: Skipping to Next Item from Post ID: 209657 pothole
SK: Skipping to Next Item from Post ID: 209658 pothole
SK: Skipping to Next Item from Post ID: 209705 pothole
SK: Skipping to Next Item from Post ID: 209714 pothole
SK: Skipping to Next Item from Post ID: 209725 pothole
SK: Skipping to Next Item from Post ID: 209756 pothole
SK: Skipping to Next Item from Post ID: 209757 pothole
SK: Skipping to Next Item from Post ID: 209858 pothole

My guess is that the Apache Server Error is the reason we have so many deletions.


(th)

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#2907 2023-05-24 17:30:08

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,190

Re: Housekeeping

Those are most likely my posts that were removed from the cell topic.

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#2908 2023-05-25 13:33:06

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,872

Re: Housekeeping

For SpaceNut .... Dr. Greg Stanley accepted my invitation to join the forum.

His ID is GStanley

We are going through the normal email setup procedure.

The signal at the bottom of the Index page has been updated to reflect the new membership.

6 down and 10,000 to go.

I like those odds!

(th)

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#2909 2023-05-25 20:12:35

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,190

Re: Housekeeping

New members that actually get use to the posting and discussion is important as it is difficult for others to take information that can actually show that what they are putting forward needs work and that it is missing content to make it work.

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#2910 2023-05-26 08:22:12

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,872

Re: Housekeeping

For SpaceNut ... I am happy to report that our new member [GStanley] was able to negotiate the hurdles and land safely in the forum.

Last visit: Yesterday 21:43:42

Dr. Stanley sent a confirmation by LinkedIn as well.

Apparently I can improve my instructions for someone using one of the old spammer ID's, so I've asked for guidance.

(th)

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#2911 2023-05-26 15:15:11

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,872

Re: Housekeeping

For SpaceNut re opportunity this weekend....

Two things are happening right now (and probably more) that might augur a productive week ahead for members of the forum.  We have a new member, and Calliban has a week of vacation ahead.

We have an opportunity to focus upon Real Universe project activity that is within scope for several members.

The idea launched by kbd512 is ambitious, as befits an idea published in the NewMars forum.

However, Calliban has shown practical ways to build a working model of a Thermal Energy Storage device, that might be assembled and tested (measured) by forum members.

The ultimate goal as defined by kbd512 appears (as I understand it) to be a transportation vehicle that can compete against all the existing IC and EV models in existence or on their way.  That ultimate goal may well be achieved, but not here, and not now.

What I would like to see are practical down-to-Earth plans for a Thermal Energy Storage system that can produce 100 watts for one hour, and if that is ambitious, I am willing to reduce either the wattage or the time duration or both.

We have members with hands-on tool skills, so a well designed demonstration machine is within reach.

(th) The following is a script for testing a new feature of WBA (WebBrowserAutomation)

# test script for new commands WECC and WECM
# Save text in Clipboard 2 before running the tests
#
#    Wait for click in Address bar
Wait:1000
# Text might be Test & Number:5
#
#    Set cursor in address bar
#
<esc>,combine,control,l.
#
Text:Test
Number:5
#
#    Text should now be in address bar
#
<esc>,combine,control,l.
<esc>,combine,control,a.
<esc>,combine,control,c.
#
StoreClipboard:2
#
ReportClipboard:2
#
WaitForEventClipboardMatch:2
#
WaitForEventClipboardChange:2
#
ReportClipboard
#

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#2912 2023-05-29 11:16:30

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,872

Re: Housekeeping

For SpaceNut ... just FYI ...

While adding new commands to WBA, I decided to improve the readability (and maintainability) of the program, by consolidating code to advance the row pointer.  This mean that many (ie, more than 20) changes had to be made, so I'm rerunning the pothole script to verify the revised code still works. 

The new commands allow for checking the address bar with text that changes at run time.  They are required by the special circumstances of working with ChatGPT, which is written long after FluxBB was last updated.

***
Today is Memorial Day in the States ... I put three little flags out.

Update after scan over 300 posts.... There were no potholes this time.

The run log looked normal.

(th)

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#2913 2023-05-30 11:53:01

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,872

Re: Housekeeping

For SpaceNut re Void's recent post:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 37#p210337

Without intruding upon Void's topic, I would like to point out the similarity of his proposal for landing legs for Starship, with the original Apollo landers.  The stage used for landing was left behind on the Moon.  Void's concept seems similar, with the possible difference of size .... Starship is a ** lot ** larger than the Lunar Lander upper stage.

***
Side report ... I reported recently on having successfully implemented virtual communications for Web Browser Automation, but with the addition of two new commands needed to work with ChatGPT, I've discovered a difference between the physical serial line and the virtual one.  When I run the new command with the physical connection, they work, but with the virtual path they work and then cause a Stop Run signal.  I'm looking forward to finding out how ** that ** happens! 

Beyond these two new commands, I have several challenges ahead. The ChatGPT (3.5) available to me (ie, free) is limited (by the developers) compared to the paid version. Among the limitations is removal of the ability to read from or write to the Internet.  All input must pass through the input window, and I learned recently the limit for ** that ** interface is (about) 4096 tokens, which are allocated to input and output.  I am attempting to figure out how to deliver a blob of text through that window.  The specific requirement is to deliver a figure from one of Dr. Johnson's course lessons, and the format ChatGPT understands is called SVG (Vector Graphics).  The image instructions are rendered in text, and there are no carriage returns or line feeds in the blob, so I'm going to have to feed chunks of the blob through the input port, and hope that ChatGPT appends each chunk to the stored variable.  It tells me it thinks it can do that, but I'll have to write code to generate the transactions. 

All in all, this situation (free version restrictions) is proving to be challenging.

Update at 19:52 local time .... the problem that showed up when I used the new Virtual pathway turned out to be related to some code that deals with the physical interface.  The solution is to skip that code if the interface is Virtual, but for now I've implemented the correction just for the new commands.
***
I note that kbd512 commented on the Thermal Energy Storage battery.  It will be interesting to see what Calliban comes up with, if he has time to spend on it during his vacation week.  That's a big ** if ** for most folks when a vacation week arrives. 

(th)

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#2914 2023-05-30 18:30:49

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,190

Re: Housekeeping

With the car and wife in the shape they are both in we did not do the normal cemetery route for flowers and flags maybe a redo later towards fall.

The town finally fixed the roads edge but did not make any improvements, I guess one step at a time.

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#2915 2023-05-31 11:14:48

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,872

Re: Housekeeping

For SpaceNut re #2914

Best wishes for recovery in your household!

Thanks for mention of your previous trips to cemetery with flowers and flags.  Were those trips for relatives, or neighbors, or both?

***
Glad to know the road is at least repaired after the flooding damage!
****

In this next section, I'd like to offer you something to work on, if you have time and the energy, and the project seems worth while ...

I've asked a manufacturer of small (model) marine steam engines for specifications for their $160 low end model.  They make higher end engines for much larger ship models, apparently.

In earlier posts, you have mentioned an automobile generator as a possible option.  I'm not sure if generators are still used.  The market may have gone entirely to alternators.  In any case, with the objective of consuming 100 watts of power over an hour, i asked Google about 12 volt lighting.

About 11,200,000 results (0.72 seconds)
Since amps times volts equals watts, this works out at 69 watts (230 times 0.3). Now to work out the amps at 12 volts you divide 69 watts by 12 volts and you get 5.75 amps.

Estimating your Power Demands | Power Consumption Guide

Rainbow Power Company
https://www.rpc.com.au › faq › estimate-demands
About featured snippets

Feedback
People also ask
How many amps does a 12v bulb use?
The standard 12v incandescent bulb used in RVs draws 1.5 amp. The average, high quality, LED light draws . 3 amps and outputs 2x as much light. LEDs are about 10x as efficient at producing light when used in a 12v application.Nov 3, 2016

P = IE

I = P/E

so current would equal 100/12 or 50/6 or 25/3 so 8 1/3 amps

9 / 1.5 >> 90/15 >> 18/3 or 6 bulbs .... 9 AMP X 12 Volts >> 108 watts

Can you determine what rotation is needed to deliver 9 Amps at 12 Volts from an automobile generator?

The rotation requirement needs to be fed back into the model steam engine calculation, to see if gearing is required.

(th)

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#2916 2023-05-31 11:30:36

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,872

Re: Housekeeping

For SpaceNut ... apparently DC generators are still made for the golf cart market ...

https://www.amazon.com/Rareelectrical-G … 18&sr=8-16

Amazon has quite an assorment.

I would imagine a working 12 Volt DC generator could be found in a salvage yard for less than the price of a new one.

The requirement of this application is only 9 AMPs, so the generators shown at Amazon would be loafing.

(th)

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#2917 2023-05-31 19:23:53

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,190

Re: Housekeeping

12v x 1.5 A = 18 watts for each hour that you will want it to light for each bulb. so, 6 bulbs x 18 w = 108watts is correct for the circuit.

The particular alternator will produce at 600 rpm about 6 amps at best, but the voltage will drupe to less than 12 v value.
At 1500 rpm the alternator will be near 12 amp and at 2000 rpm above 20 amps while continuing to 2500 rpm to 3000 rpm for full power before getting too hot at full amperes of 25A. Also, a typical alternator is charging a battery so its normally going to be able to put out approximately 14v under lighter loads than it is spinning for.

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#2918 2023-05-31 19:38:33

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,872

Re: Housekeeping

For SpaceNut re #2917

Thanks for taking up the generator question .... I did a quick check with Google, and confirmed that alternators produce AC but (apparently) generators can produce either DC or AC.

The golf cart generator I showed in the Amazon link is (apparently) a "generator" (not an alternator).  I am guessing that for the golf cart market, the generator remains the superior answer for the application, while in automobiles (apparently) only alternators are used these days.

In fact, Google says...

I managed to lose the citation ... the quote was to the effect that alternators replaced generators in cars starting in the 1960's

However, your estimates for output with rotation speed may be quite accurate .... Since the goal here is to deliver 9 AMPs at 12 VDC, it should be possible to obtain the precise rotation rate through experiment, and then run or gear the steam engine to deliver that rotation

I note that the generators shown in the Amazon ad are all belt driven, so the ratio between the pulleys would determine the run speed needed from the engine. And ** that ** presumes the engine can deliver the amount of power needed for the application.

This little $160 motor is designed to turn a propeller in a small model boat.  It might be completely overwhelmed by a 12 VDC generator.

(th)

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#2919 2023-05-31 20:01:38

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,872

Re: Housekeeping

For SpaceNut .... actually, I don't think it makes a bit of difference for this project, whether we use a generator or an alternator.

By any chance does your friend with the garage have an alternator lying around that you could test in your home workshop?

It should be possible to put together a 100 watt load from odds and ends, and turn the generator/alternator with a drill, to see what it produces.

By discovering the power required to drive the generator/alternator, it should be possible to determine the power output needed from the steam engine.

That little model boat engine may be ** way ** under powered for this application.

A way to determine the power required to drive the generator is to use a small electric motor to drive the generator, and to measure the power consumed by the electric motor (ie, voltage and current).

(th)

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#2920 2023-05-31 20:19:38

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,190

Re: Housekeeping

Alternators require a battery to satisfy the regulator coil that creates the magnetic field that it's going to make use of with the turning of the shaft at rpm/

A permanent magnet does not require 1 to make it function.

Using a drill gets you into the torque for force for rpm

https://www.protoolreviews.com/truth-ab … que-speed/

While that might seem to complicate things, it’s still a good place to start. Let’s say you’re considering three drills with the following specs:

Drill #1
Torque: 1100 in-lbs
High-Speed: 2000 RPM
Low Speed: 550 RPM
Drill #2
Torque: 1150 in-lbs
High-Speed: 2100 RPM
Low Speed: 450 RPM
Drill #3
Torque: 1050 in-lbs
High-Speed: 1900 RPM
Low Speed: 600 RPM

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#2921 2023-05-31 20:46:35

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,872

Re: Housekeeping

For SpaceNut re #2920 .... we appear to be heading toward generators and away from alternators, for this application.

Thanks for the tip about drill specifications!

Do you want to take charge of the electric circuitry?

We may be able to persuade NewMars members to contribute used parts they have lying around.

Let's start with your inventory.  Given the goal of 100 (108) watts for an hour, do you have parts (new or used) in your inventory that could be adapted for this use?

I found a supply of 1000 watt generators (?alternators? not sure) that go for under $100 new (with shipping and taxes).

I just found a Generator 12v Permanent Magnet for $70 on eBay.  it is rated for 1200 watts ... it provides AC or DC.  It would be loafing at 100 watts.

The 1000 watt version costs $60 and shipping is free.

Item number is: 403952071897

To see the item, used the Advanced Search option and enter the 12 digits into the Item window.

(th)

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#2922 2023-06-01 06:22:31

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,872

Re: Housekeeping

For SpaceNut re steam engine ....

Here is a site with a wide assortment of devices for the model ship building community.
https://www.stirlingkit.com/collections … gine-model

The collection includes a generator with a digital voltage display.  The generator is rated at 12 Volts and 1 Amp.

My (wild) guess is that a builder might tap the output of the steam engine to provide power for lights and for radio control of the model, which (I gather) is at least 80 cm long (31 inches). 

The steam engines for a model ship that size are priced just under $1000.

***
The input to the generator is 133 watts, if we assume 80% efficiency and 100 watts output.

The conversion factor that Google found is 1 Watt = 0.00136 horsepower.

The steam engine needs to supply .18 horsepower.

(th)

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#2923 2023-06-01 06:26:20

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,872

Re: Housekeeping

For SpaceNut .... here are some folks who make serious steam engines for the off-grid community

https://claverton-energy.com/mini-steam … nergy.html

The smallest steam engine I found delivers 5 horsepower.

We only need .2 horsepower.

(th)

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#2924 2023-06-01 06:49:51

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,872

Re: Housekeeping

For SpaceNut re Air Motors

This web site offers what appears to be a wide range of air motors, starting at a power level close to what we need.

https://globe-benelux.nl/airmotors/en/c … vanemotor/

An air motor would be the appropriate recipient of output from a hot+cold thermal energy store.

Such a design would hold liquid air in the cold compartment, and some suitable heat retaining material in the hot compartment. The output would be air at a pressure sufficient to drive the air motor mechanism.

(th)

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#2925 2023-06-01 15:33:41

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,872

Re: Housekeeping

For SpaceNut ...

I asked Bing (new enhanced ? not sure) to find me an air motor that could deliver 1/3 horsepower, and it came up with this site:

https://tools.cp.com/en/products/air-motors

Power ranging from 0.16 kW (0.21 HP) to 1.8 kW (2.45 HP). Most motors can be supplied as either unidirectional with a threaded shaft, or reversible with a keyed shaft. Alternative output options are also available. Chicago Pneumatic air motors are ATEX certified for environments with potentially explosive atmospheres. A complete range of accessories is available to ease air motors

(th)

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