New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: As a reader of NewMars forum, we have opportunities for you to assist with technical discussions in several initiatives underway. NewMars needs volunteers with appropriate education, skills, talent, motivation and generosity of spirit as a highly valued member. Write to newmarsmember * gmail.com to tell us about your ability's to help contribute to NewMars and become a registered member.

#226 2022-07-09 10:32:30

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 6,252

Re: Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need

From the article Hyperloop: Fast, But At What Cost?

While many Hyperloop projects are under development around the world, the most-discussed proposal thus far has been the original idea of a route linking Los Angeles and San Francisco. The initial claims from the Musk camp were that a 350-mile Hyperloop system linking the two cities could be constructed for $6-7 billion, charging $20 for the lighting-quick 35 minute ride. Each pod would carry 28 passengers, with each pod spaced out by as little as 30 seconds in transit. Claimed maximum ridership for a two-tube system would be on the order of 15 million trips per year. Multiplying that out, that comes to $300 million in revenue generated by the heavily-patronised system.

Obviously, with ticket prices so low, journey times so short, and with far less fuss compared to taking a flight, the Hyperloop looks promising on paper. However, digging deeper, the fundamentals of the project don’t look so rosy. With such a low number of passengers per pod, the total flow rate of passengers through the system is limited, on the order of just 3360 passengers per hour. Projected land costs are likely far in excess of the mere $1 billion cited in the original Hyperloop paper, leading many to suspect the $6 billion cost is likely off by a factor of 10 or more, with tickets more realistically costing $1000 apiece.

There are also discussion of flow of goods between habitat clusters on the Moon and Mars in other threads. I wonder as the miners keep digging longer tunnels and deeper into Mars could a type of Carbide engine work for karts and lamps, Methanides are a subset of carbides distinguished by their tendency to decompose in water producing methane.

Offline

#227 2022-07-09 10:58:15

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 13,992

Re: Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need

For Mars_B4_Moon re #226

It occurs to me to wonder why any money is allocated for "land" ...

The State of California already owns right-of-way on the surface.


The Hyperloop could be dug underneath the major highways that run between the cities.

If you (or anyone) has time to investigate, I'd sure be interested to know why any money was set aside for land.

(th)

Offline

#228 2022-07-14 16:42:50

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 6,252

Re: Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need

Musk's hyperloop still captivates despite decade of setbacks
https://uk.style.yahoo.com/news/musks-h … 19014.html

tahanson43206 wrote:

The Hyperloop could be dug underneath the major highways that run between the cities.

If you (or anyone) has time to investigate, I'd sure be interested to know why any money was set aside for land.

I am unfamiliar with California's legal system, perhaps one day we could have an A.I legal guide that could simplify all those legal books and cases for now I do not know its Real Estate Lawyers, its wild life environmental or water laws, its land law or thoughts about property rights, I do not know of California Probate and Estate Planning Lawyers nor do I understand the legal running of its transport systems.

Offline

#229 2022-07-14 17:28:39

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 13,992

Re: Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need

For Mars_B4_Moon re #228

Thank you for your interesting, multi-faceted reply!  Not every post you create is a gem, because of your rate of  production, but this one was, and I am glad to have inspired it!

(th)

Offline

#230 2022-07-30 07:45:14

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 6,252

Re: Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need

The case for making public transit free everywhere. From Spain to Germany and Luxembourg to Estonia, more and more countries are experimenting with fare-free transportation.

https://www.wired.com/story/free-public-transit/

"Soon, depending on where you live, all those bus, train, and tram journeys could be totally free. Sure, transit operators would earn less revenue. But some are willing to risk the cash to find out whether free fare policies can help reduce car journeys and make cities run more smoothly.

Does it work? So far, the evidence is mixed—but ditching tickets has other benefits, from ensuring equitable access to transport to keeping buses running on time, with costs offset by savings on ticketing systems or fare enforcement.

If it feels strange not to pay, experts draw parallels with public health, libraries, and schools—services that some use more than others, but everyone pays into. “When you remove fares that says to people that you’ve got a right to get around regardless of your means, it’s a public good,” says Jenny Mcarthur, urban infrastructure researcher at University College London. The need for new thinking is acute: Road transport makes up a tenth of global carbon dioxide emissions, with soaring fuel prices also putting a squeeze on already stretched household budgets.

This is why cities and countries around the world have been edging toward free fares."

Offline

#231 2022-07-30 19:21:27

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 27,663

Re: Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need

Low cost on earth does exist but it's not 100% coverage for all places or cities and thinking that mars will be 100% means we are limiting the tracks and locals to which we are making use of.

Online

#232 2022-08-12 18:04:50

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 6,252

Re: Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need

China launches world’s first maglev ‘sky train’ that floats in the air using permanent magnets

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science … hout-power

Offline

#233 2022-09-02 08:19:18

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 6,252

Re: Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need

Spain's free train tickets launch today - how to get them and where you can travel
https://www.mirror.co.uk/travel/news/sp … h-27881977

CAF to supply 102 LRVs for Boston under $US 811m contract
https://www.railjournal.com/passenger/l … -contract/
Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority (MBTA) board of directors has selected CAF USA as the successful bidder for a $US 811m contract to supply 102 LRVs for Boston’s Green Line.
The base contract also includes two driving simulators, fleet parts, specialised tools and test equipment for the vehicles supplied, as well as a three-year warranty.

Aérotrain was an experimental Tracked Air Cushion Vehicle (TACV), or hovertrain, developed in France from 1965 to 1977 under the engineering leadership of Jean Bertin – and intended to bring the French rail network to the cutting edge of land-based public transportation. Though similar to a maglev design, which levitates a train car over a complex electromagnetic track to eliminate all resistance other than aerodynamic drag, the Aérotrain – also a "train without wheels" – rode on an air cushion over a simple reinforced concrete track or guideway and could travel at the speed of a maglev train, without the further technical complexity and expense of its track. In many respects, the entire concept resembled a product of the aircraft rather than rail industry. https://www.solidariteetprogres.org/IMG … bertin.pdf
Valéry Giscard d’Estaing formally annulled the contract for the Aérotrain Cergy-La Défense line and SNCF formally shifted support to the TGV as its high-speed ground-transportation solution.
http://aernav.free.fr/Biographies/M_Biogjb.html
Grumman also developed an air-cushion transportation prototype (also known as tracked air cushion vehicle or TACV), tested within the same facility in Pueblo, which also stopped when UMTA funding ceased in the 1970s.

Transport vid
Abandoned Railways Yesterday's Mistakes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoxA94q4xlE
Reece Martin

Transportation Systems That Were Too Far Ahead of Their Time
https://futurism.com/transportation-sys … their-time
Nine futuristic transit systems that flew too close to the Sun.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-09-02 08:30:40)

Offline

#234 2022-09-06 04:25:48

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 6,252

Re: Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need

The 1st fully hydrogen-powered passenger train service is now running in Germany. The only emissions are steam & condensed water, additionally the train operates with a low level of noise. 5 of the trains started running this week. 9 more will be added in the future to replace 15 diesel trains.

https://www.engadget.com/the-first-hydr … 28596.html

Offline

#235 2022-09-07 06:36:42

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 6,252

Re: Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need

Scotland announces a rent and train fare increase freeze
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- … s-62807578

The Moon has more impacts than Mars it "rings" when it is hit by a meteorite.

Earth's Moon Hit by Surprising Number of Meteoroids
https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/godd … -cratering
The moon experiences a heavier bombardment by small meteoroids than models had predicted, according to new observations from NASA's Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter (LRO) spacecraft. The result implies that lunar surface features thought to be young because they have relatively few impact craters may be even younger than previous estimates.
The finding also implies that equipment placed on the moon for long durations -- such as a lunar base -- may have to be made sturdier. While a direct hit from a meteoroid is still unlikely, a more intense rain of secondary debris thrown out by nearby impacts may pose a risk to surface assets.

A Meteorite Slammed into the Moon at 38,000 MPH During Lunar Eclipse
https://www.space.com/meteorite-hits-mo … lipse.html
MIDAS monitored the flash in different wavelengths, revealing more information about the space rock that hit the moon. Scientists estimated the rock was about 45 kg (100 lbs.) in mass and roughly 30 to 60 centimeters (1 foot to 2 feet) across.
After the impactor crashed into the surface, the debris it generated had an estimated peak temperature that was about as hot as the surface of the sun — about 9,750 degrees Fahrenheit (5,400 degrees Celsius).

Offline

#236 2022-09-16 03:39:45

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 6,252

Re: Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need

SNCF and Alstom unveil “TGV of the future”

https://www.railjournal.com/fleet/sncf- … he-future/

Offline

#237 2022-10-11 14:25:04

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 6,252

Re: Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need

Musk announced that the Tunnel company would start using a tunnel boring machine (TBM) to begin digging a usable tunnel at SpaceX. Boring Company  is an American infrastructure and tunnel construction services company founded by Elon Musk.
.

Another strange tweet

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1579114131155623936

Coming soon from 'The BoringCompany'

Offline

#238 2022-12-25 16:47:48

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,619

Re: Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need

Mars_B4_Moon wrote:

The 1st fully hydrogen-powered passenger train service is now running in Germany. The only emissions are steam & condensed water, additionally the train operates with a low level of noise. 5 of the trains started running this week. 9 more will be added in the future to replace 15 diesel trains.

https://www.engadget.com/the-first-hydr … 28596.html

A train is the easiest option for conversion to hydrogen fuel.  It has a very low frontal area per cubic metre of cargo or carriage volume.  It can therefore carry large hydrogen gas cells above its carriages without imposing heavy air resistance losses.  It also has a very low energy consumption per tonne-mile or passenger-mile, thanks to low frontal area and low friction of steel wheels on steel rails.  This makes it fuel efficient and the cost and bulkiness of the hydrogen fuel are less problematic.

On Mars, there are a number of problems that make rail the most desirable way to get around, especially over long distances.  Firstly, all fuel must be manufactured from CO2 and H2O, which will make it relatively expensive.  Under that circumstance, the most energy efficient transportation system offers strong cost advantages.  Trains can be powered by direct-electric.  There aren't many other transportation systems where this would be practical.  Perhaps most importantly, Martian dust is going to severely shorten the life of any vehicles that have to trek through it.  A vehicle that runs on steel rails on raised banks, is largely immune to this problem.

Building transportation on Mars means building railways.  For that task, we need lots of carbon manganese steel for rails, cast iron, cast basalt or stone for sleepers, and mined stone for railway banks and bridges.  The stone used for construction will come from underground mines.  These will serve as habitats as chambers are excavated.
https://www.railway-technology.com/anal … ture92105/

I think it is an open question at this point how a Martian train should be powered.  On Earth, hydrogen can be carried in light, non-pressurised gas cells.  That won't be possible on Mars.  And a Mars train must carry both fuel and oxidiser.  But hydrogen or some other chemical fuel is an option.  A small nuclear reactor is an option.  Overhead catenaries are expensive, as a lot of steel framework is needed.  A third rail is a possible option.  Transmission over long distances will weigh upon the cost of electrification.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-12-25 17:15:55)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Offline

#239 2023-02-28 12:20:36

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 6,252

Re: Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need

The European Hyperloop overtakes Elon Musk’s: 500 km of tunnels under Swiss soil

https://ev-riders.com/news/the-european … wiss-soil/

Europe is taking the lead in adapting Elon Musk’s innovative idea for freight transport with the Swiss Cargo Sous Terrain (CST) project.
The idea behind this solution is to create a faster, more efficient, and safer means of transport rather than the conventional one which produce carbon emissions. It has been described as a combination between an airplane and a train and is mainly intended for the transport of passengers.
The technology is under development and has not been commercially implemented. Several projects are in different stages of implementation and testing around the world but it will take several years before the system is fully functional and operational.

Offline

#240 2023-03-02 05:07:15

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 6,252

Re: Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need

Many dead in a Greek train crash.

If human systems do not evolve then maybe one day Mars would one day also add itself to the list of 'worst train disasters' Accidents with at least dozens injured or deaths. There is also war, violence and terrorism, when Confederate partisans sabotaged the supports of a bridge or the islamist Madrid train bombings. At the time José María Aznar who was sworn in by King Juan Carlos I tried to blame a number of islamist attacks on his own people in Spain, the Basque separatist group ETA he also ruled oil spill in Galicia and was removed as an unpopular President, there were 193 Deaths and many Injured the Perpetrators Al-Qaeda,  many people from other countries Romania, Bulgaria, Ecuador, Peru, Poland and muslims were killed in the islamic attacks.The removal of Aznar seen the withdrawl from Iraq, a war unpopular among the Spanish public, Aznar appeared before Committee and continued to claim the authors of the bombings were not to be found "in faraway deserts or remote mountains." Aznar's government posthumously granted a medal of Civil Merit to Melitón Manzanas, the head of the Francoist secret police in San Sebastián, 11 of the 14 members of José María Aznar's government were later imprisoned or prosecuted for influence peddling, money laundering and tax fraud. Years alter Aznar continued to say that he thought that the attacks were not exclusively perpetrated by Islamists. He has received the America Award of the Italy-USA Foundation in 2019 and since he began advising Rupert Murdoch collected a $4 million salary but he continues to deny the attack was a jihadist terrorist attack. In regards to overall Death some of the worst disasters were Ciurea rail disaster Romania, Bihar India train derailment, USSR Vereshchyovka Soviet Union train disaster, Al Ayatt train disaster Egypt, Guadalajara train disaster Mexico in the early 1900s the true numbers of dead remained mostly an unknown.

Greece train crash: Angry protests erupt after disaster
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64820085.amp

Greek train collision: 47 dead - "We find people crushed in the carriages"
https://greekcitytimes.com/2023/03/02/t … n-47-dead/
The tragic death toll from the fatal train collision accident near Larissa continues to rise.

Offline

#241 2023-03-06 08:18:08

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 6,252

Re: Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need

Another day, another train

Shelter-in-place issued after MAJOR train derailment in Springfield, Ohio
https://euroweeklynews.com/2023/03/05/b … ield-ohio/

2nd freight train derails in Ohio
https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/202 … s-in-ohio/

Chaos erupts during protests over deadly train collision in Greece
https://abc13.com/chaos-erupts-during-p … /12917620/
Anger over a same-track collision between two trains in Greece that killed nearly 60, erupted in a massive protest

Germany is to introduce a single €49 ($52) monthly ticket that will cover all public transport (ex inter-city), and wants to examine if a single EU-wide monthly ticket could work.
https://www.politico.eu/article/germany … rt-ticket/

Offline

#242 2023-03-16 07:36:30

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 6,252

Re: Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need

Phone Addicts and Bad Drivers, if idiots from Earth arrive on Mars then perhaps an AI driver or a Train is better.

'Highways are getting deadlier, with fatalities up 22%. Our smartphone addiction is a big reason why'

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/ … ed-driving

Offline

#243 2023-03-28 14:22:00

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 6,252

Re: Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need

Elon Musk Slammed Over Boring Company’s Plan to Dump Wastewater Into a River

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2023/03/texa … ado-river/

Offline

#244 2023-04-09 04:56:01

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 6,252

Re: Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need

Elon Musk’s The Boring Company seeks to double the size of its Vegas Loop
https://techcrunch.com/2023/03/21/elon- … egas-loop/

In Quebec the 130 year Old  Funicular a type of cable railway system that connects points along a railway track laid on a steep slope.
https://web.archive.org/web/20220704070 … de-accueil

Another Tramway, cablecar,  seilbahn and aerial lift discussion

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10460

Offline

#245 2023-04-13 02:19:09

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 6,252

Re: Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need

Margrethe Vestager derails Spain’s plan for high-speed trains
https://www.politico.eu/article/margret … ition/amp/
Commission says there is no market for super-high-speed trains and orders €141 million be recouped.

' The Spanish authorities have been given a hard time by EU regulators of late. '

According to the competition commissioner: “There does not appear to be any interest in the market to develop products that run at such high speeds,” adding that public funding would “create a distortion of competition by subsidizing a new entrant in the market.”

Europe’s state aid regulator rubbished the Spanish government’s arguments that the investment — an estimated €357 million — would stimulate employment and economic development in Andalucia, one of Europe’s poorest regions. The project “would only have had limited short-term effects by creating temporary jobs in the construction sector,” it said.


Japan-led maglev project in U.S. faces cost and regulatory hurdles
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/ … -progress/

New Chinese 200km/h maglev train completes testing
https://www.railjournal.com/fleet/new-c … s-testing/
The train is expected to operate on routes of up to 200km.

China's first high-temperature superconducting maglev system completes trial operation
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202304/1288407.shtml

Visiting Pompeii will be easier thanks to a new high-speed train line from Rome
https://www.euronews.com/travel/2023/04 … -from-rome
Travellers to Italy’s capital will soon be able to visit the ancient city of Pompeii in an easy day trip.
The Italian government has announced it will add a new high speed train link from Rome to the archeological park near Naples.


from the Low Lunar Orbit thread

US Navy’s electromagnetic catapult launch a fighter jet
https://www.engadget.com/2017-08-01-us- … r-jet.html


'Navy Tests 32-Megajoule Railgun'

https://web.archive.org/web/20080325235 … le-railgun

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-04-13 02:21:11)

Offline

#246 2023-04-30 03:44:41

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 6,252

Re: Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need

621 miles (1,000 km) an hour

China to bring Elon Musk's dream of Hyperloop into reality by 2035
https://interestingengineering.com/tran … loop-train
It will be built between Shanghai and Hangzhou

In 2012, Musk took the concept a step further by operating them in vacuum tunnels that could increase train speeds to 760 miles (1,220 km) an hour and dubbed it Hyperloop.

A train with a speed of 1,000 km per hour; China with the fastest hyperloop in the world
https://thelocalread.com/a-train-with-a … the-world/
Beijing: China is about to make a new history in the history of high-speed trains. China has started trials to develop a hyperloop train that will travel at a speed of 1000 km per hour. China plans to develop a high-speed hyperloop line between Shanghai and Hangzhou. Tesla CEO Elon Musk’s dream project Hyperloop is also becoming a reality in China.

Hyperloop is a project that transports people and goods through vacuum tunnels with the help of pods. Musk proposed the project in 2013. It is reported that the first phase of the Hyperloop test has started in China.

China has plans to launch hyperloop lines connecting cities such as Beijing-Shijiazung and Hangzhou-Shenzhen. Currently, it takes over two hours to travel by road between Shanghai and Hangzhou. With the arrival of the Hyperloop, the journey time will be reduced to 15 minutes.


Has China just finalised the world’s first hyperloop destinations?
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science … stinations
    Chinese version of Elon Musk’s vision could travel up to 1,000km/h, top engineers say
    Several major cities were considered for mega project, expected to be operational by 2035

Offline

#247 2023-05-26 08:36:42

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 6,252

Re: Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need

Builder of high-speed railway to get more land
https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/25 … -more-land
The State Railway of Thailand will provide additional land to the builder of the high-speed rail system linking three airports

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB