Landing Pad Construction on Mars

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-25 05:27:40

For SpaceNut ... there was no topic in this Index level containing the word "landing"

Terraformation is a concept that I think of as a grand, planetary scale construction project.

However, "terraformation" does not necessarily need to occur at a planetary scale.

The structure of the NewMars forum Index does not include a level directly suitable for discussion of construction of specific features on Mars.

This topic is available for anyone who might wish to focus upon a specific technique for construction on Mars, at whatever scale makes sense.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-25 05:42:13

SearchTerm:Landing pad iron filings from orbit

Recently, an idea came to my attention of the use of Thermite powder to make a strong surface for a floor of a building.

The original reference is not available at the moment, but if I find it here is where it would go: [Reference:..]

Wikipedia:

Thermite is a pyrotechnic composition of a metal powder and a metal oxide that produces an exothermic oxidation-reduction reaction known as a thermite reaction. If aluminum is the reducing agent it is called an aluminothermic reaction.
Jun 8, 2011

After thinking about the idea for a few days, it came to me that it is NOT necessary to introduce the complexity of combustion of iron powder mixed as thermite, if the goal is to make a landing pad of solid iron for use by passenger Starships landing tail first.

A carefully designed ballistic delivery of iron dust from orbit, or direct from Earth-Mars transfer orbit, would allow for deposit of an iron surface of any desired thickness at a chosen location on Mars.

The reason this would work is that if iron particles are delivered to the atmosphere of Mars, they will acquire thermal energy due to collision with CO2 molecules on their way to the chosen landing pad construction site. Due to dispersion of the iron particles as they travel through the atmosphere, they would spread out to deliver a "mist" of hot, molten iron over an area chosen by the planners.

The molten hot particles would collide with the regolith at the chosen location, and (presumably) form chemical bonds with the material of the regolith for some distance, but not for a great distance, because each molten iron particle would be of (relatively) small mass.

It should be possible for someone with access to modern flow simulation software to model how this would work, and perhaps more importantly, to model how the iron particles should be sized for optimum performance, and how they should be delivered over an area to achieve a flat landing surface of uniform thickness of solidified iron over the pre-existing regolith surface.

***
This technique could also be used to "construct" a dome over a pre-existing dome-shaped pile of regolith.

After the dome of iron has solidified, the regolith underneath can be excavated, and the resulting volume will hold pressure for habitat, and the wall of the structure will provide some radiation protection by itself, but more importantly, the regolith excavated from below can be piled on top, because the iron will have enough strength to support it.

SearchTerm:Dome for habitat made from molten iron filings from orbit

Update at 12:09 local time - The proposed construction technique can be compared to spray painting, with the concept in mind that the thickness of the final product is on the order of 6 CM. Material delivered from orbit would be fused with existing regolith to some depth, but the top layer that must bear the load of a fully fueled Starship needs to be thick enough to do the job reliably for decades or centuries if necessary.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-25 06:01:03

As a follow up to the idea of making a landing pad on Mars using iron filings imported all the way from Earth....

It is possible that the regolith of Phobos might have properties suitable for construction of a strong landing pad on Mars, using the same method as proposed for iron filings.

The cost (energy and labor by humans) would be significantly less.

However, it seems to me this option would make sense ** after ** a base has been constructed on Mars using materials imported from Earth.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-09-25 17:10:56

we have only discussed a concrete landing pad for starship

Mars surface is high in iron particularly the oxide forms

edit please add thoughts on thermite from the house keeping please.

SpaceNut · 2021-09-26 07:59:50

tahanson43206 wrote:

Thank you for picking up on the new topic about making a landing pad by delivering a spray of hot molten metal onto the desired landing site. This is a far more efficient process that the original idea of making something out of concrete, as you have noted.
I don't know how to pursue the molten metal idea right now, but will keep watch for an opportunity.
You'll be able to see for yourself how this would work when winter arrives in New Hampshire. If the day gets cold enough, you'll be able to point a spray of water into the air, and the falling droplets will make a coating on the surface wherever they descend. The droplets will freeze instantly when they hit the surface, and you'll be able to build up a think layer of ice by moving the spray back and forth.
The hot molten metal would be descending from orbit and passing through the atmosphere. The metal would land on the future landing pad and instantly "freeze" to solid iron. If the spray is planned well, the surface of the landing pad would be even and about six inches (10 cm) thick. In combination with the metal being bonded into the regolith, the pad should be able to hold a fully loaded Starship without groaning.

SpaceNut · 2021-09-26 08:39:36

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite

A thermite reaction is an exothermic oxidation-reduction reaction similar to the ignition of black powder.
The reaction requires a metal oxide and fuel.

Fe2O3 (s) + 2 Al (s) → Al2O3 (s) + 2 Fe (s)

https://chemdemos.uoregon.edu/demos/The … III-oxide#

so it appears the chemistry is well known but the method is in need of altering for mars.

sounds to me that we need the fuel added to a mixed layer of mars soils and then top it with the ignitor chemical so that once we start it to burn that the reaction is sustained until its completely done burning.

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-26 11:18:02

For SpaceNut re #6

Thank you for your follow up on this new topic!

Your in-depth mini-report on Thermite is helpful. Thermite can certainly be made on Mars, since the elements needed are present, and while energy supply is less than on Earth (pending nuclear power), it is ** still ** possible to manufacture the material.

The method of construction (picking up on your post) might be to spread the material thickly over the plot of regolith you want to turn into a landing pad, and then set off the reaction so that it proceeds through to completion. It might make sense to ignite the reaction in multiple locations, to try to ensure an even distribution of energy. The ideal outcome would be to create a pool of molten iron that would cool slowly into a nearly flat surface that is thick enough to sustain the mass of even a fully loaded Starship.

However, I'm inviting you to look again at the falling stardust idea ...

We have a chicken-egg problem.

If we could land Starships, then the human personnel could make Thermite and make durable landing pads wherever they are needed.

But we can't land Starships, so we can't put humans on the ground, whether they use concrete or Thermite.

The idea I offered in Post #2 is to deliver the metal to make a hot molten iron pool at a desired landing site on Mars.

No additional chemical energy is needed!

It is NOT necessary to make Thermite to produce the hot molten surface.

The iron particles arriving from orbit (whether LMO or Earth Transit) will become incandescent as they descend through the atmosphere of Mars.

However, nothing BAD will happen to the iron particles, because mere chemical energy or kinetic thermal activity can't injure them in any way.

They will descend through the atmosphere at whatever velocity the laws of physics allow, achieving a nicely glowing state as they approach the future landing site.

Upon arrival at the future landing site, the first arrivals will contact the regolith and ask (quite politely I'm sure) for admission to the lower layers of the regolith, until the energy of the arriving particles is absorbed by the regolith. There will be no splashing (or very little) because we are talking about tiny particles of iron, and in any case, the volume of hot glowing arriving particles will tend to push any regolith material that ** does ** splash upward, back down into he volume of regolith under "treatement".

If we had someone in the active membership who could perform Flow Analysis with modern software (commercial or OpenSource) then I would welcome their analysis of the potential for this landing pad construction technique.

I would ** also ** appreciate analysis of the effectiveness of delivery of material from the regolith of Phobos for this purpose.

While the atoms would (generally) be lighter, they are likely to resist decomposition due to thermal activity on their way down from LMO.

Quote from Google:

Phobos and Deimos appear to be composed of C-type rock, similar to blackish carbonaceous chondrite asteroids.
In Depth | Phobos – NASA Solar System Exploration
solarsystem.nasa.gov > moons > mars-moons > Phobos > in-depth

I'm working on a system that was state-of-the-art in 2000 or so. It can't see anything Wikipedia offers.

However, it still does ** everything ** it was build to do, so I have no incentive to replace it. What is more, it is practically ** impervious ** to attack by malware, because no hacker would ** believe ** there could be a system this archaic still running on the Internet.

If someone would be willing to add a brief report on the makeup of carbonaceous chondrites, I'd appreciate it.

If there is someone not ** already ** a member who would like to contribute to the development of **this** topic, please read Post #2 of Recruiting.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-09-26 14:39:51

Star dust
https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/are-we-r … rdust.html
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 … 133415.htm
simular to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_dust

All of which due to the grain size burns up on the way down and becomes a part of the atmosphere.

The landing pads unless we need a ton of them can be just a small mission to get one set up for the bigger push to settle mars.

We know how to prospect from orbit for earth so why not for mars as well since we are doing the same thing for water deposits as ice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ore_resources_on_Mars

The solution of aluminum and other ingrediencies for the thermite reaction since we are looking at a one time transport would allow for the first sites starship landing. Its the question of how large do we need the site since not all vehicles will ever leave to return home then to solve for the next landing when only one leaves as we will need more cargo ships to land in the same site for quite a while.

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-27 10:43:29

For SpaceNut re #8

In my first reading of your post, I did not realize the full value. I let the post sit overnight, and with the fresh perspective of a new day, I ** really ** appreciate your contribution!

You are absolutely right, that the atmosphere of Mars will "eat" iron particles arriving from space.

It is doing just exactly that every Sol, and probably every minute of every Sol.

With this improved perspective, I will attempt to think through the optimum elevation for deployment of the particles so they heat up to incandescence, but do NOT dissipate into finer and finer dust until they end up as just more Martian dust.

In the mean time, I thought of a home kitchen experiment you (or any reader of this forum) can perform ...

I found a white plate in the dish tray and set it flat on the table. Then I uncapped a container of ground pepper and gently shook a few dashes onto the plate. If you carry out that experiment (much to the amusement of your family I am sure) you will see (in your mind's eye) what I have in mind.

The pepper particles disperse as they move from the container to the plate. By adjusting the starting point for the particles, I was able to simulate building of a layer of pepper more or less uniformly across the center section of the plate.

Some particles dispersed all the way to the edge of the plate.

***
Returning to your insight ... the particles need to be protected from the upper atmosphere, and released at just the right altitude to heat to incandescence just as they arrive at the target surface.

Mars will take care of cooling soon enough.

If there is someone in the crowd who would be willing to compute the amount of iron particles needed to make a pad 100 meters in diameter and 10 centimeters thick (not counting the fused regolith below the pad), I'd welcome your addition of that data to this topic.

For simplicity (and also for simple practicality) let us assume the pad is circular, and discount the decrease in thickness at the periphery of the pad.

Using SpaceNut's insight as a guide, I deduce the packages of iron particles need to be deployed in a heat shield that burns up on the way in, so that the iron particles are exposed to the atmosphere at just the right altitude to heat to incandescence but not have time to dissipate before they hit the target.

Guidance needs to be precise to the meter.

That implies the heat shield will be augmented by some computer controls to track progress, and to adjust travel vectors as needed.

Does it matter if the guidance package becomes part of the molten mass at the target site?

Simplicity would suggest that is the optimum procedure.

The downside is possible splashing, which we do NOT want.

Perhaps the guidance package can release the payload and then adjust it's own travel vectors to land outside the perimeter of the target.

In ** that ** case, the highly refined materials used to make the guidance package would be available for recovery by the human landing crew.

I'd expect this system of landing pad preparation would be deployed in 2024 for arrival in 2025, ahead of a Starship intending to land. The Starship would need to be designed to hold position in LMO to give the landing pad process time to complete. That should not be a problem, because SpaceX will certainly have solved the refueling in orbit problem by that point.

To repeat for the umpteenth time ... there is ** no ** reason for a ship traveling to Mars to leave with anything else than full tanks.

A Pusher rocket vehicle (similar to a tug in Earthly maritime service) can push the departing vessel so that it has all the momentum it needs for the Earth-Mars transit. The Pusher can return to Earth LEO to prepare for it's next job, just as SpaceX first stages return to Earth today.

With full tanks (less any boiloff) the Mars bound vehicle will have plenty of fuel to match orbit with Mars ** and ** to land when the pad is ready.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-09-27 18:31:36

Mars does have wind at various levels and with the craft angled towards the surface the streak of pepper would not lay evenly let along along the path of the ships direction. The higher up above the ground the wider the dispersement will be making the layer very thin.

Placing the iron within a carbon ball would allow for the heat shielding effect that pica creates which is a carbon phenolic mixture.

For starship we need a thick plate of which the engines would melt if we are in that profile of hover for to long.

Then again this sound just like a job for a helicopter to pick up a small container and fly it over the landing zone....

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-27 18:57:29

For SpaceNut re #10

Thanks for thinking about the pepper shaker example!

Your idea of packing iron particles into a volume with a carbon cover is quite interesting.

If the carbon burns off at exactly the right altitude, the package of particles would have just enough time to heat up to incandescence before colliding with the future landing site.

Iron solidified into a hard surface might melt if it is subject to hot exhaust for an extended period.

On the other hand, that metal is going to be chilled to the temperature of the surface of Mars, so it will have ** that ** advantage in a contest with an arriving Starship.

How does a surface of solidified iron compare in performance to a surface of concrete, given the same hover?

Is one better than the other?

I assume concrete must erode if it subjected to exhaust for an extended period.

There's no water deluge available on Mars.

Update at 21:51 local time:

https://www.gigacalculator.com/calculat … ulator.php

volume of a cylinder box illustration
Base radius
5000 CM (50 meters)
Height
10 CM (.1 meters)
Metric
cm
Calculation results
Cylinder volume 785,398,163.397448 cm3

Per Google (and by inspection) that pad is 785.4 cubic meters.

Consulting: https://www.aqua-calc.com/calculate/volume-to-weight

Volume:
785.4 in: cubic meter
Search
Select a compound:
Iron
precision:
2
V2W | W2V | Density | Price | Mole | Mass and molar concentration
show all units
Weight of 785.4 cubic meters of Iron
kilogram 6 183 454.2 tonne 6 183.45
How many moles in 785.4 cubic meters of Iron?
There are 110.73 megamoles in 785.4 cubic meters of Iron

The landing pad would be made of 6 183 tons of iron, if it were 100 meters in diameter and 10 cm thick

The reasonable question that might follow is: How much surface does Starship actually need?

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-01-05 07:36:59

Calliban added an interesting concept to the mix today:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 31#p189831

The proposal is to apply the example of Pykrete developed by the British in World War II.

(th)

Void · 2022-01-05 19:34:07

It believe that you have an upstairs version of this. So, I am more willing to intrude. I intend to talk about boxes inside and outside, envelopes, the lower and higher of that. Cheating reality, which I feel is similar to cheating death worthwhile in many cases, if you can do.

Let's start with this, as it may indicate the machine(s) that may actually exist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YpcrY5gTkM

I like the SSTO notion, but rather as a side item am interested in the Stretch-9 starship to be a 1st stage, with a Rocket Lab 2nd stage. Ya, I am dreaming....

I will continue with some cheats.

OK, I have to try hard to avoid pompous behaviors. I do desire to be useful not a burden.

To be inside the box, I guess to me indicates to obey constraints. This is quite proper, unless you can supply method to go outside such orthodoxy.

As for envelops, looking at the Falcon 9, in general, there is the 1st stage use as re-usable, and the 2nd stage as expendable. This then is the typical envelop, driven by the desire to employ some re-usability. But they can extend the envelope by expending the 1st stage. This is only done, where the value of what can be achieved is worthy of that sacrifice of the re-usable mantra.

The Starship can also be presumed to be able to modify to an extended envelope by sacrificing re-usability, for a worthy purpose.

I feel that the Superheavy/Starship system has been designed mostly to allow access to LEO, and to Mars itself, that then being the outer envelope as has been conceived.

It is not a bad measure to use for "What shall we build?" constraints.

I am a deviant; I suppose as I will not try to "Topper" those who have proposed landing pad methods. Hurray for them and please continue.

I wish to violate the envelope(s), and benefit for it.

I feel I have learned significant things from the members here and do wish to try to use that education.

I have already proposed expendable landing gear for the Moon landings. The logic there is to compose such a structure from materials most wanted on the Moon. Therefore, you leave the landing gear behind to be "Recycled" to Lunar economic purposes.

I was sad that such could not be done for Mars. But I have reconsidered.

Someone here has shown that for heat shielding we may consider, re-usable, expendable, heat sink, and active cooling methods.

For Mars, if we can build good landing pads by whatever works bestest..:), then we may very happily use them for cargo deliveries.

But for initial deliveries where landing pads do not exist, or for humans as that to deliver, we want rough service methods if we can afford them.

So, I suggest landing gear attached to the engine bell appropriately to survive the rocket plumes, and aerobraking, to allow for a rough service landing. The materials of the landing gear to be useful to the inhabitation process for Mars, as it would be for the inhabitation of the Moon.

This will skew the skydiver process for going into the Martial dive, so that has to be delt with.

But basically, I suggest that this landing gear be attached to the Starship's engine bell, in LEO, prior to launch to Mars. Likely it should be including materials desired on Mars, and to use one time heat shielding. And perhaps heat sinking and active cooling by liquids to vaporize, in order to ensure the survival of the landing structures used.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-06 09:26:10)

Void · 2022-01-06 18:45:40

In the previous post, I used "Bell" where I intended "Skirt". That is, I see value in supporting an option to attach an optional landing structure to facilitate rough landing situations.

The landing structure would be intended to have the equivalent of legs, and the ability to survive, even if somewhat crushed/bent. Optimally it would be composed of materials most useful to promote needs on the Moon or Mars or whatever world.

Done.

Calliban · 2023-05-21 17:03:24

I was on the road earlier and I noticed that a quite common way of producing road embankments now is to pack loose rocks into a galvalised steel cage. I wonder if this technique could be used to produce landing pads on Mars? The steel mesh would prevent individual rocks from flying off when the exhaust hits them. It also provides a frame allowing rocks to lock together. On Mars, we woukd assemble the cage and then stack regolith rocks within it like a dry stone wall, before closing the lid. Loose regolith coukd be added in layers to provide stabilisation.

kbd512 · 2023-05-21 17:22:59

Calliban,

What if we used alternating layers of steel mesh and pulverized regolith, and then refilled any regolith blasted away during launches?

SpaceNut · 2023-05-21 19:42:08

This one of those chicken or egg problems as the starship requires it to be able to land but what lands to allow the pad to be created.

here is the other topic Starship concrete Mars landing pad

Calliban · 2023-05-22 06:18:05

kbd512 wrote:

Calliban,
What if we used alternating layers of steel mesh and pulverized regolith, and then refilled any regolith blasted away during launches?

I think that would would work. Maybe a steel mesh that is placed on top of an upper layer of large stone blocks that are set within compressed clay. The weight of the blocks and their bonding will help prevent the dynamic forces of the rocket backwash from tearing them loose. The steel mesh will then hold in place any fragments that do come loose. I am put in mind of the structure of a roman road.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_roads

The steel mesh could consist of layers of chicken wire, which are secured at the edges by burying the ends in a trench that runs around the landing pad.

Another option that might be easier to build, would be a thick layer of compacted regolith stones, overlain by a layer of compressed clay. On top of the clay, we put a steel sheet, which we then anchor into the clay using long, barbed stakes, which would be nailed through the steel sheet into the clay. This ensures that the dynamic load imposed by the rocket exhaust is distributed across the entire surface of the pad through the stakes.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-05-22 06:36:01)

SpaceNut · 2023-05-22 18:49:20

I agree that once completed a starship could land undamaged by the sand and rock storm that the engines would kick up but until one lands something small and actually makes the pad there is no safe wat to land a starship without adding the Falcon or longer legs to the vehicle.

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Landing Pad Construction on Mars

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