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#26 2015-02-16 09:37:18

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Mercury

Just a continuation of extreme speculation.
Returning to your original solution of a dynamic sun blocker in front of the planet, then utilizing the magnetic field of the planet that I presume will be allowed to expand.  The most valuable asset will be the ability of the magnetic field and surface materials to generate water, for as long as the solar wind and planet Mercury exist.  That is at least a billion years.

For giggles however, I wonder about indeed digging the maximum allowable hole(s) at one or more poles.  While the planet has a very thick rigid crust and no tectonic movements, I read that it would have Mercury quakes from the condition where the planet is shrinking as it cools.

The point being that if you wanted to continue to remove materials from the planet you would not want the average air pressure to become very high, considerably less than that of Mars.  But there would have to be limits on how deep you could dig a hole at the poles.  It is a silly notion I know, but you did speculate on mining the whole planet completely, I would think that for the purposes of having a very long term source of water, it would be better to dig holes at the poles, just maybe deep enough to support some higher atmospheric pressure within.  And to provide materials to build that dynamic sun blocker.

For Mars, which has a similar gravity field:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Mars

Structure[edit]

Pressure comparison


Where

Pressure


Olympus Mons summit
0.03 kilopascals (0.0044 psi)

Mars average
0.6 kilopascals (0.087 psi)

Hellas Planitia bottom
1.16 kilopascals (0.168 psi)

Armstrong limit
6.25 kilopascals (0.906 psi)

Mount Everest summit[11]
33.7 kilopascals (4.89 psi)

Earth sea level
101.3 kilopascals (14.69 psi)

Mars's atmosphere is composed of the following layers:
Lower atmosphere: A warm region affected by heat from airborne dust and from the ground.
Middle atmosphere: The region in which Mars's jetstream flows
Upper atmosphere, or thermosphere: A region with very high temperatures, caused by heating from the Sun. Atmospheric gases start to separate from each other at these altitudes, rather than forming the even mix found in the lower atmospheric layers.
Exosphere: Typically stated to start at 200 km (120 mi) and higher, this region is where the last wisps of atmosphere merge into the vacuum of space. There is no distinct boundary where the atmosphere ends; it just tapers away.

There is also a complicated ionosphere,[12] and a seasonal ozone layer over the south pole.[13]

If the whole of the planet had an

Exosphere: Typically stated to start at 200 km (120 mi) and higher, this region is where the last wisps of atmosphere merge into the vacuum of space. There is no distinct boundary where the atmosphere ends; it just tapers away.

It already has a temporary and I presume on the low end of pressure, Exosphere.  If that were improved to be the highest level for an Exosphere. then the holes would need to be at least

200 km (120 mi)

deep to even think of supporting ice covered water pools.

That's pretty deep.  But if it was like a strip mining operation, maybe.  I simply don't know.  But if you could do it then you would have a location more favorable to humans, with perhaps sufficient radiation protection (Along with the magnetic field?).  And an atmosphere to do aerocapture of arriving spacecraft.  And also most likely a natural collection point for water generated by the incorporation of solar wind into the magnetic field where it the Hydrogen would combine with Oxygen from rocks, or from the puddle of atmosphere you would have at the poles.


Done.

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#27 2015-02-16 11:49:44

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Mercury

I think the obvious thing to make the Sun shade out of is Mercury itself. In the short term, as far as manned habitation is concerned, one can place mirrored sun shades on poles above Mercury's surface. Since most of the light gets reflected back into space, not much is absorbed and reradiated as heat, so the surface under does not become hot enough to melt lead. I would add that mercury has 28,880,441 sq miles (74,800,000 sq km) of surface area, so we would need to make 28,880,441 sq miles (74,800,000 sq km) or mirrored surface, and we can do that on the night side of the planet where machines can operate better, set up the mirrors and move against the rotation of the planet so as to stay on the night side. Do this long enough and you can completely cover the planet with reflective mirrors. The planet is mostly made of iron, so there is plenty of metal for making mirrors out of.

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#28 2023-03-22 06:21:01

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,774

Re: Mercury

The ESA/NASA ESASolarOrbiter captured Mercury's silhouette against some towering gaseous structures in the Sun’s outer atmosphere

https://twitter.com/esa/status/1629526645118828546

Ben Bova, science fiction writer, I read died from Corona virus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vroz5-qTgrQ

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-03-22 06:23:02)

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#29 2023-05-18 06:53:31

Mars_B4_Moon
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Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,774

Re: Mercury

Thermal expansion of oldhamite, CaS: Implication for the surface of Mercury

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3523002063

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#30 2023-06-18 15:03:29

Mars_B4_Moon
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Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,774

Re: Mercury

BepiColombo braces for third Mercury flyby

https://phys.org/news/2023-06-bepicolom … flyby.html

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#31 2023-10-27 00:56:33

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,568

Re: Mercury

Mercury appears to be volatile rich.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DAI0EVQKp44

Who would have thought?


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#32 2023-10-27 08:59:32

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Mercury

It is very interesting. 

I found the mention that Mercury may have formed further out in the solar system to be a very new claim.

I have recently read that there is some suspicion that Mercury was habitable at some point.  That it was wet, and that underground the conditions would have been supportive of life.

All of this is of course new thinking to me.

Mercury of course becomes more interesting because of all of this and the coincidence, that it's gravity is very similar to that of Mars.

A thing that seems to be emerging about terrestrial worlds is very deep water, at least for Eart, but now Mercury might have it as well. And for Venus, I think I have read that the Hydrogen in the atmosphere has to be being replenished from somewhere.  So, maybe very deep water for Venus as well.

Mars is not defined about that, and the Moon, is presumed dry, but I have seen some speculation on deep water for the Moon.

The means of travel Earth/Moon<>Mercury which has been forming in my mind has included very large cycling spaceships, with both nuclear and solar power methods, and likely also electric rocket methods.

Mercury and Earth seem to have a 1 to .24 time period of orbiting the sun.  So, almost 4 orbits of Mercury for 1 of Earth.  But these could be very active cyclers, using the solar wind to match phase to the planets.  But I am not sure.

Smaller Sub-Cyclers could connect up to these during passage around the sun.  These also could have nuclear and solar propulsive methods.  Thess also could do a ballistic capture to Earth if desired, on occasion.

As far as transfer to Mercury, I am thinking that they could match up to Mercury's "L1" or "L2". 

Then ships would connect from Mercury to stations in Mercury's "L1" or "L2".

But I have not done proper rocket science for this.  It is more wishful thinking than proper science.

But, if Mercury is endowed with all these materials, then could be minded for various materials and those could travel outward to other worlds, using the solar photon method or solar wind method, or of course electric rocket methods.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-27 09:23:25)


Done.

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#33 2023-11-18 14:07:37

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Mercury

I am very tired from a workout at the gym, so I have not energy to do anything other than to post at this time.  I like the conversation in this article: https://phys.org/news/2023-11-unveiling … -salt.html
Quote:

NOVEMBER 17, 2023

Editors' notes
Unveiling Mercury's geological mysteries: Salt glaciers, primordial atmosphere, and the new frontiers of astrobiology
by Alan Fischer, Planetary Science Institute

I especially like this text, Quote:

"These findings challenge prevailing theories of VRL formation that traditionally centered on mantle differentiation processes, where minerals separate into different layers within the planet's interior. Instead, the evidence suggests a grand-scale structure, possibly stemming from the collapse of a fleeting, hot primordial atmosphere early in Mercury's history. This atmospheric collapse might have occurred mostly during the extended nighttime periods when the planet's surface was not exposed to the sun's intense heat."

"Underwater deposition could have significantly contributed to the emplacement of a salt dominated Mercurian VRL, marking a significant departure from previous theories about the planet's early geological history. In this scenario, water released through volcanic degassing may have temporarily created pools or shallow seas of liquid or supercritical water (like a dense, highly salty steam), allowing salt deposits to settle."

"Subsequent rapid loss of water into space and trapping of water in hydrated minerals in the crust would have left behind a salt- and clay mineral-dominated layer, which progressively built up into thick deposits," co-author Kargel said.

If that turns out to be true, then the habitability of Mercury would be greatly enhances, I think.

Images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Ha … 177&ch=510

https://onejive.com/one-beautiful-salt-mines-world/
Image Quote: turda-salt-mine2.jpeg

We might want to find salt deposits on Mars also.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-18 14:15:25)


Done.

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#34 2023-11-19 09:19:27

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Mercury

Running with this again: https://phys.org/news/2023-11-unveiling … -salt.html
Quote:

"These findings challenge prevailing theories of VRL formation that traditionally centered on mantle differentiation processes, where minerals separate into different layers within the planet's interior. Instead, the evidence suggests a grand-scale structure, possibly stemming from the collapse of a fleeting, hot primordial atmosphere early in Mercury's history. This atmospheric collapse might have occurred mostly during the extended nighttime periods when the planet's surface was not exposed to the sun's intense heat."

"Underwater deposition could have significantly contributed to the emplacement of a salt-dominated Mercurian VRL, marking a significant departure from previous theories about the planet's early geological history. In this scenario, water released through volcanic degassing may have temporarily created pools or shallow seas of liquid or supercritical water (like a dense, highly salty steam), allowing salt deposits to settle."

"Subsequent rapid loss of water into space and trapping of water in hydrated minerals in the crust would have left behind a salt- and clay mineral-dominated layer, which progressively built up into thick deposits," co-author Kargel said.

And my hope would be that Nitrogen may be included in those "hydrated minerals in the crust would have left behind a salt- and clay mineral-dominated layer" materials.

For the Moon, it is actually thought that there is enough Nitrogen in the regolith for agriculture.  It would have to be extracted however.
Mercury may also have this, but I am hoping that like Ceres it might have enough for a civilization on Mercury.

And this: (My mind struggles): https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/PSJ/acf219

Well, if this stuff proves true then Mercury does hold a lot of promise as a place that could be very useful to humans and robots in a solar "Civilization".

Calliban had a nice post a while back: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 42#p215242
It seems that the atmosphere of Mercury has Oxygen and Hydrogen which if collected might make water.  Of course it is extremely thin.

But if you made a cold spot as cold as the polar shaded craters, and used electrostatic force you might accumulate both and maybe get water ice anywhere on the surface of Mercury, I think.  Probably a capacitor with a plate on the bottom with a (-) charge, with the electrons looted from Mercury itself, and then an electrical insulating layer, and then an open plate on the top that (+) ions could plate onto.  Cool that in the shade, to very low temperatures and you might accumulate water, I think.

It seems possible that water is leaking out of Mercury though, and maybe wells could be drilled.  And then there are ice sheets at the poles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_( … 0sheet.%20
Quote:

At Mercury's poles there are large reservoirs of water ices that are never exposed to direct sunlight, which has an estimated mass of about 0.025–0.25% the Antarctic ice sheet.


Query: "Colonizing Mercury"
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Colonizin … ADA9D8DD97

Isaac Arthur Video: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

More Video: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Co … ORM=HDRSC4

Getting to Mercury would be a problem, but I have considered 'cyclers to get you inside the orbit of Mercury, and then a ship that uses some kind of solar sailing to move from that to Mercury or a L1 or L2 of Mercury.

Mostly you would only be moving humans, not materials in that manner.

But you would have to get some infrastructure started there at first of course.

If you could eject your solar sailing ship from the cycler very near the sun, then it would have a lot of power to get to Mercury's orbit(s).

The solar sailing ship could then fly by automation to be required by the cycler over time.

To get humans to the cycler, you probably want nuclear thermal propulsion.

It is an attempt anyway.  Of course the sailing ship really needs thermal protections and radiation protections.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-19 09:55:22)


Done.

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#35 2023-11-23 09:20:50

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,774

Re: Mercury

Mercury is home to exotic glaciers of salt, and they may host life beneath them

https://www.space.com/mercury-salt-glac … bitability

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#36 2023-12-01 08:05:49

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Mercury

The Angry Astronaut talks about Mercury and life: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheAngryAstron … can_exist/
Quote:

r/TheAngryAstronaut icon
Go to TheAngryAstronaut
r/TheAngryAstronaut

17 hr. ago
TheAngryAstronaut

We were wrong about Mercury!! If life can exist here, it can exist anywhere!!

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-01 08:06:41)


Done.

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#37 2023-12-13 09:23:16

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,774

Re: Mercury

Do Glaciers on Mercury Suggest Such a Planet Could Be Habitable?

https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-n … habitable/

Void wrote:

TheAngryAstronaut

Social media like you tube and reddit have censored a lot these past years, same channel mirrored and backed up?

You might have to copy and paste with that @ symbol in the url

https://odysee.com/@TheAngryAstronaut:a

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-12-13 09:23:31)

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#38 2024-04-12 10:53:47

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,774

Re: Mercury

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#39 2024-05-05 03:16:58

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,774

Re: Mercury

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#40 2024-05-11 16:32:25

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Mercury

So, this is very interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OM-LCbImrs
Quote:

Major Discoveries About Mercury May Rewrite a Few Textbooks

Anton Petrov
1.3M subscribers

So, possibly big ice deposits in some locations, not just the poles.

Maybe did not form where it is but near Mars.

Done

We know that lots of Carbon are on Mercury as Graphite on the surface.  If the underground ice was there, wouldn't it be
strange to turn Mercury into a garden planet!

You could split the light and pipe it into greenhouses perhaps.

Nitrogen?  We Venus has a lot of it, maybe Mercury has some.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-05-11 16:40:54)


Done.

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#41 2024-05-13 04:05:22

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,568

Re: Mercury

Mercury is a volatile rich planet.  There are even speculations that life could exist beneath its surface.  Who would have guessed that even a few years ago?

This will be a tough place for humans to visit, partly because it is so deep in the sun's gravity well.  Any ship entering orbit of Mercury would need to rely on numerous gravity assists with Earth and Venus to dissipate sufficient orbital energy such that relative speed to the planet is low enough to enter orbit.  Landing on the planet won't be easy.  Mercury has substantial gravity and no atmosphere at all to brake a spacecraft.  So all dV must be propulsive.

That being said, the planet could offer opportunities for human settlement.  The lack of atmosphere is actually a bonus so close to the sun.  There is nothing to distribute heat, allowing areas close to the poles to remain temperate or cold.  The planet has virtually no axial tilt, so does not experience seasons.  That is an advantage as well, as it allows for predictable temperature ranges that never get too hot at high latitudes.  Closer to the equator, patches of the planet can be kept cool by suspending reflective mirrors above the surface.  These mirrors would be aluminised foil suspended on steel cables running between towers or pillars.  Solar energy provides all of the energy that human colonies will ever need.

Without any sensible atmosphere, mass drivers would work efficiently on the surface.  These would need to be housed in tubes and covered with a metre of regolith to keep the structure cool.  But export of materials from Mercury surface into solar orbit will be much easier than from Earth or Venus.  Mercury would be a good place for optical and infrared astronomy during its long night.  After sundown, the surface begins to cool, reaching temperatures of around 100K.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-05-13 04:16:34)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#42 2024-05-19 21:28:27

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Mercury

I definitely want to reference your last post Calliban, but this came into my head while preparing to do that, and it needs to be put here I feel.

l2mOXQT.png

The idea is to shoot fine materials from the surface of Mercury, to impact the cup-trough of the inner surface of the ring.

At first the surface will be abraded, but once you put a layer of dust or regolith or sintered tiles over it the metal would be protected.

If the axis of a world were not very tilted, this ring may also make shade on the equator of a world.  This could be the case for Mercury or a moon like Callisto or Ganymede.  Although shade would not be so wanted in the two moons.

Of course, building such a ring would be a giant project so methods such as you have proposed would have humans and robots start by inhabiting the surface and subsurface of Mercury itself.

After the ring was built it might be that most humans would spend most of their time on and inside of the ring.

Done

Neumann Drives only exist on a small scale at this point and are being tested, if I understand.  They can project a wide array of elements, but not all elements.

A Mass Driver could project magnetite dust.  That has Iron and Oxygen in it.  It might also project some other substances with magnetic properties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetite

Another way to project other materials with a mass driver would be to coat the magnetite dust with the substance you wanted to send.  Not necessarily easy, but perhaps possible.

Done

The angle and speed of the projections could alter the spin rate of the ring, but I think it could be kept at a desirable value.  But maybe some other spin method such as magnetism would be needed, now that I visualize it further.  Treat Mercury as a Stator and the ring as a Rotor.  Mercury already does have a magnetic field, and that could be worked with, using Electrodynamic Tethers, perhaps.  You also could tap the inertia of photons to drive the ring, using sail that pivot appropriately.

Done

It might be possible to have a rather low orbit for the ring, provided you could insure it would not bump Mercury, ever.

Done

I collected these prior to the idea forming.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

This is a subpart of the above video, so then a quote I suppose:
https://youtu.be/P4aXmnQzJ0o?t=278

Done for the night.

Last edited by Void (2024-05-19 21:50:28)


Done.

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#43 2024-05-20 09:45:46

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Mercury

The materials of the just prior post are rather, more advanced than anything we could think to do as Earthlings now.  But it was fun to try.  But I would like now to respond to Calliban's materials.


Done.

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#44 2024-05-20 09:48:06

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Mercury

I would like to respond to Callibans materials, Quote:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,483
Email
Mercury is a volatile rich planet.  There are even speculations that life could exist beneath its surface.  Who would have guessed that even a few years ago?

This will be a tough place for humans to visit, partly because it is so deep in the sun's gravity well.  Any ship entering orbit of Mercury would need to rely on numerous gravity assists with Earth and Venus to dissipate sufficient orbital energy such that relative speed to the planet is low enough to enter orbit.  Landing on the planet won't be easy.  Mercury has substantial gravity and no atmosphere at all to brake a spacecraft.  So all dV must be propulsive.

That being said, the planet could offer opportunities for human settlement.  The lack of atmosphere is actually a bonus so close to the sun.  There is nothing to distribute heat, allowing areas close to the poles to remain temperate or cold.  The planet has virtually no axial tilt, so does not experience seasons.  That is an advantage as well, as it allows for predictable temperature ranges that never get too hot at high latitudes.  Closer to the equator, patches of the planet can be kept cool by suspending reflective mirrors above the surface.  These mirrors would be aluminised foil suspended on steel cables running between towers or pillars.  Solar energy provides all of the energy that human colonies will ever need.

Without any sensible atmosphere, mass drivers would work efficiently on the surface.  These would need to be housed in tubes and covered with a metre of regolith to keep the structure cool.  But export of materials from Mercury surface into solar orbit will be much easier than from Earth or Venus.  Mercury would be a good place for optical and infrared astronomy during its long night.  After sundown, the surface begins to cool, reaching temperatures of around 100K.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-05-13 05:16:34)

"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Your materials presented make a lot of sense.  The mirrors you mention could relatively easily be sun following on one axis, the North/South, as Mercury is said to have an axis tilt of 2% relative to the Plane of the Elliptic of the sun.

I think that Mass Drivers could be a benefit in the manner you have suggested.  I would suppose that some type of hot side of a heat engine may receive the focus of such mirrors.

If we think down the lines of robots, the mirrors might offer a lot of protection for them working in the shadows in the daytimes.
I would think to add some method of the storage of cold under the mirrors.  But also, as others have mentioned, the poles could offer a short path to encircle part of the planet.  This possibly could have some merit: vOhYtDG.png

Mercury appears to have lots of Carbon on its surface, and of course Oxygen bound to minerals: https://theconversation.com/discovery-o … past-55940

So, then CO2 as the working fluid.  The heat sink could be of sintered surface materials to make blocks, and I suppose some type of piping, to more heat from the concentration point through a heat engine and then to flow though the heat sink.  Because of day/night fluctuations, expansion and contraction of the components of the heat sink would be needed.

Supposing that Mercury was flat as a cue ball then a heat sink wall could encircle a polar area.  And power lines could distribute electric power from active solar portions to other portions.  Because Mercury is not flat, then that has to be modified for a rugged terrain.

So, this may have merit for a "Robot" colony, with just a few humans involved as labor, and almost all labor being robotic.

Then some method desired to export materials from Mercury.

The mirrored surface would be on standoffs from the heat sink and insulation would be employed to keep the heat on the mirror from heating the heat sink.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-05-20 10:33:55)


Done.

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#45 2024-05-20 12:18:41

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,378

Re: Mercury

I had wanted to mention a Neumann Drive again.

https://neumannspace.com/

Here again are the potential propellants: https://neumannspace.com/metal-propellants/

I do not know if the thrusters could be sized up for what I want, a "matter transmitter(s)".

But if they can then perhaps various methods could be used to collect the output to orbit.

A centrifugal collector device, magnetics, and electrostatics come to mind.

But also, it just might be possible to make some substances stick to a surface.  Maybe Aluminum would where its impact speed would be enough to just melt the metal for the moment of impact, presuming that it could stick.  I don't know if that can work for any substance, but maybe.

--------

An earlier effort to project matter into orbit would simply be a chemical rocket system.  Over time mass driver methods and skyhook methods could be attached to it to help support some of the launch load.

n9yiXPV.png

So, you have to start from a practical process scaled down, in order to eventually build up to making something massive like a world ring.

Some companies are creating 3D printers to actually build rockets.  So, the payload stage could be mass produced in that manner, perhaps.

And as I have said over time you could integrate greater and greater amounts of assistance from Mass Drivers and Skyhooks, I think.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-05-20 12:42:02)


Done.

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