Plastic Car Automobile Truck Diamond Carbon No Metals

tahanson43206 · 2023-04-09 21:03:52

This topic is inspired in part by an ongoing conversation between kbd512 and SpaceNut in a topic started by RobertDyck.

Small scale all-plastic transportation devices exist today. Examples are all-plastic wheelbarrows, with metal used only for axles.

This topic is offered in hopes that forum members will be inspired to see how far they can stretch their imaginations to design a vehicle able to carry a family of four 500 miles (800+ kilometers) through rain, snow, darkness or summer heat, while using no metal parts at all.

Ideally, the entire vehicle would be 3D printed, except for a few parts that might be made of diamond, such as bearings for wheels or control devices.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-04-09 21:05:55

This post offers a set of snippets collected by Google on the theme of diamond bearings...

Diamond Bearings 101 | ChampionX
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As a diamond bearing supplier, we are keeping rotary steerable systems, down hole motors, pumps, and turbines running in the most challenging environments.
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Diamond is widely recognized as the hardest known material for unparalleled abrasion resistance. These bearings exhibit very low wear rates, even in the ...
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PCD Bearings - Waukesha Bearings
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Waukesha Bearings has partnered with US Synthetic on polycrystalline diamond (PCD) tilt pad bearing technology, providing superior bearing performance and ...
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Diamond Supply Co. Diamond ABEC 3 BearingsDiamond Supply Company was found in California in 1998 by skateboarder Nicky Diamond. HELLA FAST!
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These are some of our most popular Bearings and Sheaves.
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Precision Jewel Bearings In Sapphire, Agate, Diamond, Tungsten Carbide. Complete Bearing Assemblies. Wire Guides For Matrix Printers.
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kbd512 · 2023-04-10 02:44:21

tahanson43206,

There is no magic in 3D printing. It's not cheaper or faster for making mass-produced parts with simple geometries. If you're going to produce tens of millions of parts, a molded or forged part is the way to go. 3D printing reduces the cost of rocket engines because otherwise very large chunks of very expensive metal need to be carved into very complex shapes using very expensive tooling and time consuming milling processes. This doesn't apply to a piston for a piston engine. Metals are also far less expensive than non-metals for a huge variety of applications.

PCD tools are used for cutting very hard materials, like metals, without galling or chipping the metal. PCD for Aluminum machining is gross overkill. High speed steel and lubricant works fine for that. PCD for cutting ceramics or hardened steel or exotic metal alloys is a near-requirement.

Apart from proving that something can be done if money is no object, what is the end goal behind this thought exercise?

tahanson43206 · 2023-04-10 06:24:47

For kbd512 re #3

Thanks for giving this new topic a counterpoint.

It seems to me that you have somehow missed the point of the exercise. In sentence 4 of paragraph 1 you referred to metal, and in sentence 6 you referred to metals. In Paragraph 2 you referred to metals, and to metal, to aluminum and to steel twice.

The car design this topic is offered to develop would use no metals at all.

A planet where metals are in short supply but where carbon is abundant could make many useful products. In fact, on Earth, many useful products WERE made of wood, and many still are.

Happily, 3D Printing is NOT magic. Otherwise, it would still be a fantasy in the mind of a science fiction writer.

While Post #3 represents a challenge for future contributors to this topic, there may be folks who will find the concept worth considering.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-04-10 06:34:09

kbd512 wrote:

tahanson43206,
My response presumes that total cost matters to some degree, so material selections were made based upon them already being used for or suitable for a specific application. The vehicle in question has to be a fully functional passenger vehicle. That means advanced composites or engineering plastics will be used only when cheaper materials have too many undesirable characteristics. Any use of novel materials or fabrication methods is limited by cost.
Chassis / Passenger Compartment / Doors / Hood / Trunk: PET honeycomb panels mixed with chopped Carbon Fiber reinforcement / fiber-filled plastic (not a fiber fabric based composite which uses epoxy resins, which is both very costly and very time-consuming to produce; Chrysler Corporation has proven these bodies can be popped out of an injection mold in less than 3 minutes, ready for assembly)
Windows: Lexan / polycarbonate (already used in cars outside of America, but also for race cars and aircraft) with embedded CNT wiring heating elements for defrosting (American regulations for highway cars requires the use of tempered safety glass with a bonded Copper resistive heating element, but other countries use Lexan and some kind of tough plastic coating to contain shards of Lexan)
Windshield Wipers: Nylon arms and blade holders, rubber blades (as-is conventional design, albeit some wiper arms are still made from coated steel or Aluminum instead of nylon; neither is less functional or less costly to produce, so it seems to come down to manufacturer preference and/or cost to them from their specific supplier, but I've seen both used)
Wiper Motors: A small low-pressure air compressor / air piston connected to the engine which pressurizes a solenoid cylinder that flips the windshield wiper arm back-and-forth (Corvettes from the early 1980s or late 1970s used a vacuum-based system to operate lots of accessory systems on the vehicle, such as the windshield wipers and pop-up headlights)
Light Bodies: Polycarbonate lenses and nylon bodies with a Mylar internal coating to reflect light (as-is solution)
Lights: CNT-based liquid polymer LEDs or OLEDs (not presently used for vehicle lights)
Wiring for Lights: CNT with Tefzel / ETFE insulator (CNT is novel conductor, but Tefzel is a very common insulator for aircraft wiring)
Wheels: CFRP (this is still mostly race car technology slowly making its way into road-legal sports cars and high-end luxury cars), center-lock design using a CF-filled PEEK lock / retainer (to provide the toughness required of the mechanism locking the wheel to the axle)
Suspension: CFRP axles / shock absorber bodies / tie rods / control arms / disc springs (in place of coil springs), PTFE bushings
Tires and Door / Trunk Seals: synthetic rubber mixed with Carbon black (the "as-is" solution)
Brakes: RCC (Reinforced Carbon-Carbon; also still predominantly used in race cars and aircraft, but many sports cars now use them and the price is coming down; superior to Iron for heat dissipation rate and weight, which is why aircraft and race cars use them)
Door / Hood / Trunk Latches: CF-filled PEEK ( instead of having one steel latching stud, we would either use multi-point locking mechanisms or much larger bearing surfaces, meaning a door latching stud might be as big as your thumb and the latch itself would also need to be much larger)
Seats: CFRP for weight reduction, aerogel plastic foam padding, nylon fabric (these are all existing commercial products, sometimes combined into one product and available as aftermarket seats for racing or sports cars)
Seat Belts: Nylon (as-is solution)
Seat Belt Latches: Nylon friction locks instead of metal latches (the seat belt no longer works quite the same way, in that it doesn't latch closed per se, rather it's snugged about your body after wrapping around a stud or cleat secured to the seat itself; this allows for some movement, but then a friction lock restrains the occupant from further movement- same basic concept as a dog leash that chokes the dog if it tries to pull you over, but different execution)
Sound Deadening: polymerized aerogel foam (not presently used in cars, but used in some aircraft)
Bearing Surfaces: PTFE or PEEK
Bearings and Bearing Races: RCC
Bearing Lubricants: PTFE laden greases
Engine (massively de-rated Wankel design or Liquid Piston inverted Wankel, so a Mazda 13b-sized engine that makes 50hp at most):
Polysulfone engine block with RCC liners (the bearing surface)
Rotor: RCC with RCC seals
Eccentric Shaft: CF-filled PEEK
Gearing: CF-filled PEEK (there are gears on the rotors and side plates in the Mazda design)
Spark plugs: RCC body and insulator with a CNT electrode
Intake Manifold: Nylon or polypropylene (as-is solution)
Hoses: EPDM rubber (as-is solution)
Radiator: CF-filled Nylon with free Carbon Fibers embedded into the plastic to transfer heat (NASA's lightweight radiator design)
Oil Pan: CF-filled Nylon (as-is solution from a growing number of automotive manufacturers)
Transmission Casing: CF-filled PEEK
Transmission Gearing: CF-filled PEEK
Shifting: Pneumatic tap-shifter
Fuel Tank: HDPE (as-is solution for nearly all OEMs these days)
Fuel: gasoline (as-is solution)
The engine (at least $50,000 worth of RCC), brakes (about $20,000 per set), and transmission (CF-filled PEEK is very expensive) would each cost as much as an entire car based upon the insistence of not using any metal. The rest of the materials would cost less than an equivalent amount of metal. The chassis, accessory systems, lights, and wiring are all both doable and economically favorable. CFRP wheels cost about $10,000 per set, but they're about half the weight of Aluminum. Your car would be exceptionally light for its size, but it's also using quite a bit of aerospace or racing technology that's still not remotely affordable for the average consumer. Getting rid of the requirement to eliminate all metal from the engine, transmission, and brakes would make the car drastically less expensive.

Now ** here ** is a starting point for someone who likes a challenge.

Everything that exists on Earth is provided for free. The labor and intellectual property that a person invests in making something useful is "cost" in the process of exchange of goods and services.

As time advances, knowledge improves, and intellectual property times out.

It is science fiction today, but at some point, if humans manage to avoid destroying themselves, ** every ** useful product will be made by machines able to work at the atom or molecular level, just as a tree or any plant does today.

A defeatist attitude is guaranteed to lead to defeat.

This topic is provided for those who can imagine success and are interested in posting notes that might lead in that direction.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-04-10 07:48:41

Wooden wheels have been in use for thousands of years.

Chariots achieved a peak of performance for this concept.

A web site that Google found contains a history of wooden wheels, and the techniques used to make them.

https://ethw.org/Wheels

The dependence upon dried leather, along with glued joints, created an assembly that could exist best in a dry climate. It is interesting to speculate upon how long a wheel of this kind would retain its integrity if it were soaked.
During the Exodus, around the 13th or 14th century B.C., crossing the Red Sea compelled the pursuing Egyptians to operate in marshland. The Biblical account states that the wheels fell off the pursuing chariots. The use of dried leather and glues that were probably water soluble might be an explanation for this.
Some of the linchpins were also made of dried leather. Getting the pins wet might very well cause the wheels to fall off.
The same dry, hot (and dusty) environment that abetted the Pharaoh's rolling stock is the greatest enemy of today's war machines. Ambient desert conditions place stringent demands on engines, transmissions, and suspensions. Bearings in particular must now operate in an isolated world of their own.
Modern wheels turn faster than ancient ones, the power train drives them farther than horses can go, and the wheels seldom fall off - even when wet. But although technology has come a long way since the Exodus, a war wagon will. still. stand or fall depending upon how intelligently the mechanical problems have been solved.

(th)

kbd512 · 2023-04-10 08:29:26

tahanson43206,

The plot devices for this Star Trek movie are that we arrived somewhere with machines equivalent to Star Trek Replicators and a planet that contains lots of Carbon, but no metals. If we can truly manipulate matter at an atomic level using our 3D printer, then we can also rearrange the nuclei of various different atoms to produce metals. The primary plot device essentially bypasses the rest of the plot of this movie.

If everything on Earth is free, then the metals present are also free.

Question:
How much Iron is left in the world?
Answer from Steve Baker (senior software engineer):
Iron is about 5% of the Earth’s crust - down to a depth of at least a dozen kilometers.
With a surface area of about half a billion square kilometers - that means that there is about 5% of 6 billion cubic kilometers of iron lying around…so let’s say we have 300 million cubic kilometers of iron. Iron weighs about 8 tonnes per cubic meter - so the amount of the stuff that we could reasonably reach would weigh about 2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 tonnes.
World iron production is around a billion tonnes per year.
So we have enough iron to last about 2,000,000,000,000 years. Since the sun will blow up and consume the Earth in about 5 billion years - we could increase iron production by a factor of 400 and still never run out.
Of course we have to ask where all of that iron would be going! There would come a point where the entire surface of the Earth would be covered to maybe a kilometer deep in waste iron scrap - and hopefully it would occur to someone to start recycling it!
No - we’re NEVER going to run out of either Iron or Aluminium.
The metal most at risk is copper. We’re very close to running out of that extremely useful metal - and you can see the price of it is now increasing steeply as it gets harder to find. Already, it’s starting to become too expensive to use for household plumbing - and new houses are being built with plastic pipe instead.
Answer from c.z. (studied at UC Berkeley):
35% of the Earth’s mass is iron. That’s 2 sextillion tons of iron.
Even if we had a population of 2 trillion people, that’s one billion tons of iron per person.
For our purposes, we will never run out. Of course, at one point it will be uneconomical to extract more iron from the Earth, but by that time I’m confident we will have the technology to live among the stars so there’s no point in caring about the Earth running out of iron.

kbd512 · 2023-04-10 08:48:04

tahanson43206,

Plot twist...

We use all the energy and matter available on Earth, in conjunction with our Star Trek Replicators, to make the Earth flat. We put everyone inside their very own diamond billiard ball, and then we use the motion of our now "Flat Earth" for propulsion. Pac Man problem solved.

Edit:
"Pinball Wizard" plays in the background

Last edited by kbd512 (2023-04-10 08:50:20)

tahanson43206 · 2023-04-10 11:01:32

In conversation with ChatGPT today, this exchange reminded us all that quite practical applications of the theme of this topic are possible...

We have discussed a variety of examples of carbon based materials that have a variety of properties. I opened with the question of whether anyone had considered making an entire automobile out of carbon based materials. Your observations about safety are certainly valid if the intended application is to travel on the same roads with metal based automobiles. However, if an automobile is designed for use by the Amish, then the motive power would be a horse, and the velocity achieved would be quite modest.
You make a good point that the intended use of the automobile would be an important factor in considering the feasibility of using carbon-based materials for its construction. If an automobile were designed for use in a specific context, such as by the Amish, and its speed and operating conditions were limited accordingly, then it might be possible to construct the entire vehicle from carbon-based materials.
In this case, the emphasis would be on achieving a balance between the weight, strength, and flexibility of the materials used, rather than trying to meet more stringent safety requirements for use

(th)

kbd512 · 2023-04-11 10:50:51

tahanson43206,

If you can figure out how to reduce the energy cost of RCC and PEEK plastic production, then we could have all-plastic / all-rubber / all-Carbon Fiber cars made from existing materials and easy to mass-manufacture without invoking any new technology. 3D printing could help make parts cheaper if they have complex geometry. For example, plastic suspension arms could be much lighter using 3D printing. There it makes no sense to use traditional methods if you can get a much lighter but equally strong part.

These vehicles would never rust, they should be quite a bit lighter than steel, and they should last for multiple generations of people, with cars passed down from parents to children. When they do break, their parts can be crushed and ground back into plastic powder, and then put back into a mold to pop out a new car.

There is no serious argument to be made over the superiority of RCC over Iron brake rotors. RCC is just lighter and longer lasting and more powerful for stopping the car by quite a lot. All very high performance race cars use RCC or a similar CMC material for that purpose. F1 racing teams still use metals for engines and transmissions, though. Similarly CFRP wheels are half the weight of Aluminum and tend not to crack as often if properly designed. We could also mix in some chopped CNT into the epoxy resin to make them even stronger. The tire would then become the heaviest part of the unsprung weight on the vehicle.

If we can halve the weight of a family car, then by definition it requires half as much engine power for equal performance. I think this concept would reduce the weight to 1/3 or even 1/4, though. 1/4 is very doable, especially if we can work out affordable "Carbon Forging" methods (used by Lamborghini for their CFRP tub or chassis; doesn't require hand-layup of CF fabric, uses "chopped" CF plus intense heat and pressure in a "forging press") for the passenger compartment. For those who don't know, chopped CF fabric is considerably more affordable than woven CF fabric, and the "Carbon Forging" process is done and over with in less than a minute, very similar to plastic injection molding.

SpaceNut · 2023-04-11 19:13:37

Not a new concept.

repost

1997 Chrysler CCV Concept - American Citroen 2CV youtube video

Twenty years before the FCA-PSA merger, Chrysler tried to build its own Citroen 2CV

When completed atop its front-wheel-drive 101-inch-wheelbase chassis, the CCV weighed in at just under 1,200 pounds, returned 50 miles per gallon, topped out at 70 mph, and would have cost around $6,000. At the time a basic, no-frills Neon weighed about twice the CCV and cost about $11,000.

Looks like the PT cruiser that I had....

SpaceNut · 2023-04-11 21:18:19

SpaceNut wrote:

kbd512 wrote:
SpaceNut,
I would like to tweak Chrysler's CCV concept just a bit, by making the vehicle approximately twice as wide as Chrysler's CCV was, and equipping it with a 57hp opposed two-cylinder Pegasus O-100 engine. While this obviously won't provide the same fuel economy as the Briggs & Stratton engine, it also produces about 4X as much torque at less than half that lawn mower engine's peak power rpm figure. It won't win any drag races, but it will at least accelerate well enough to get out of its own way, unlike the original CCV's anemic 23 second 0-60mph performance. That would likely be slow enough to be dangerous on Houston highways.
The Pegasus O-100 is a custom-built part aviation / part automotive, half Continental O-200 engine. It's not a Continental Motors product, though, and is the work of a Mr. Pete Plumb. He created it for his single-seat "Crackerjack" trainer-type aircraft after the supply of suitable Rotax 2-stroke engines dried up. The O-100 uses a pair of O-200 cylinders / "jugs", CP Carillo forged pistons and connecting rods, custom austentitic ductile iron crankshaft, custom cast Aluminum crankcase, chopped-off O-200 camshaft, and Continental's O-200 / O-300 accessory case that normally mounts dual magnetos, an alternator, and an electric starter. There are no timing belts or chains in these engines, as everything is gear-driven. An opposed or "boxer-type" engine will be smoother in operation than any V-twin without balance shafts. The engine can use a throttle body fuel injector or direct injection into the jugs. An electronic ignition will be provided via a self-powered CDI accessory in lieu of the pair of 1930s vintage Bendix magnetos. We'll also add a catalytic converter to reduce emissions and a proper muffler to reduce noise. The unused pad on the engine's accessory case that was previously home to one of the magnetos, will instead mount an AC compressor for cabin cooling. Cabin heat will be provided via a thermal transfer loop that extracts heat from the engine's oil tank.
The use of dual plugs is primarily to assure reliable ignition after plug fouling from the Lead in AVGAS messes with the spark, as well as counteracting the general reliability issues associated with magnetos. That's something which is not typically a serious problem for engines that use unleaded gasoline and CDI, but we will retain the dual-plug feature to reduce emissions by promoting prompt combustion.
Similar to the O-200 and O-300, the O-100 makes its power at low rpm. All 57hp / 103ft-lbs of torque comes in at only 2900rpm. That's a lot of usable power without revving the engine to the moon. O-100 weighs about 105lbs to 110lbs, all-up weight. We can mount it to a 3-speed Jeep CJ manual transmission, and those weigh about 75lbs. I figure on another 15lbs or so for a good Aluminum bellhousing, although it should be possible to integrate this into the crankcase for less weight. Add another 20lbs for the flywheel and clutch. With engine and transmission mounting hardware, and a full exhaust system, I expect total weight to be 220lbs or so. That does not include the rear diff or axles, which I expect will add another 60lbs or so.
Anyhow...
600lbs for my CCV2 plastic chassis, 280lbs for the drive train, 200lbs for the suspension components and steel chassis stiffeners, 160lbs for the wheels, 100lbs for the automotive glass mandated here in America, 60lbs for 10 gallons of fuel, and we have a fully functional 1,400lbs highway car that comfortably seats 4 American-sized people. With four 200 pound passengers we're still at 2,200lbs. Most of the time we'll be well under that weight figure. The Dodge Neon's curb weight fell somewhere in that range, so its all-steel construction made it considerably heavier than my CCV2 concept.
This is my "commuter car concept", fully capable of taking the kids to school and the parents to work, without spending crazy money on electronic gadgetry that will inevitably require total replacement, being so costly to replace that the vehicle is not economically repairable. When the gadget repairs end up costing more money than the vehicle's Blue Book value, that is precisely how otherwise repairable durable goods end up in junk yards, where much of the embodied energy is subsequently lost to recycling and manufacture of more expensive and energy-intensive "next-generation trash" that never manages to reduce energy consumption. The energy saved in terms of manufacture, operation, and total replacement will enable our working men or women to transport themselves to where they need to go without bankrupting themselves or our nation, which will inevitably lead to the downfall of our technologically advanced civilization. More importantly, with only 1/3 the fuel consumption of our modern behemoths, we can feasibly extend our existing fossil fuel energy supplies and affordably use intermittent solar or wind energy to synthesize the transportation fuels required make our society function as well as it does.

SpaceNut · 2023-04-11 21:18:34

SpaceNut wrote:

kbd512, Of course the upgrades for performance means that price tag just went over that $20,000 dollar value and then some. Of course before we were talking about those with little or bad credit and low income ability to purchase a vehicle.
kbd512 wrote:
SpaceNut,
If the average American was a little smaller then we wouldn't need the upgrades. Even burger flippers are making $15/hr now, so hopefully they have the money for a quality car. It's a 20 year purchase, rather than a 2 to 5 year purchase. We're talking about a $6,000 engine, $250 worth of plastic for the chassis, $250 for glass, $1,500 worth of drivetrain components, plus another $1,500 worth of misc parts (head lights, seats) and labor for assembly. With a 10% profit margin, that's $10,425.
If GM can afford to sell their Chevy Spark for $13,600, a vehicle that's a good 800 pounds heavier, then there's no reason why mass production of a much lighter and lower technology vehicle wouldn't fetch a lower price. We're choosing to put money into the plastic molding machines and a high-quality and durable engine / transmission combo.
This car is so simple that assembly and disassembly can happen in one hour. We can disassemble them for recycling, instead of crushing and then chopping them up into little bits. The engines should last for decades with routine maintenance, even if periodic rebuilds are required.
These are the features NOT present:
* power steering
* power brakes
* power windows
* power door locks
* power mirrors
* power seats
* radio
* electronic transmission
* electronic dash instruments
* electrical fuel pump
What we DO have:
* user-adjustable bucket seats with 5-point harnesses in lieu of air bags
* speedometer with mileage readout
* engine tach
* engine and oil temp
* fuel quantity gauge
* turn signal indicators
* windshield wipers and washer
* cabin air conditioner
* cabin heater
* catalytic converter
* USB ports for charging user-supplied electronic gadgets like a cell phone or iPad
If you've ever seen all the electronic silliness inside a Chevy Spark, there's simply no way this car could ever be as expensive as a Spark.

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Plastic Car Automobile Truck Diamond Carbon No Metals

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