Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution

tahanson43206 · 2022-05-26 18:20:13

For SpaceNut re #25

Thanks for the link to that interesting video ... the comments were what caught my eye ... there were a ** lot ** of them.

I got the impression there was some skepticism here and there, but there were also comments with praise for the video creator.

If anyone in the forum takes the time to watch the video, and analysis the situation, I'd be interested in any observations they might post.

In any case, this topic is (hopefully) about large scale (industrial scale) production of hydrogen for heating, transportation, manufacturing and whatever else an energy carrier might be used for.

On the ** other ** hand, production of hydrogen for a household or for a farm (for example) ** would ** be of interest (to me for sure) if solar energy or wind energy is used to make the transformation.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-05-30 08:50:00

I got thinking about the electrolysis video I posted that was used to feed fuel to a power generator and wondered how much water was used for a given level of power being created.

Then I wondered about how much water was falling in a power generation plant to make the power we used again to compare those 2 levels of water that would be used.

If power generators used less water to create the same level of power we would gain a level of water for other uses if we made a commercial product that was safe and not all that expensive to own.

Will need to narrow the scope of where for a water power plant creation for research.

What will happen if the Glen Canyon Dam stops generating power?

Low tide usually arrives every 12 hours on the Colorado River in Grand Canyon National Park.
River runners who pull their rafts onto gently sloping sand beaches to camp may awake to find their boats stranded far above the waterline by morning. Rocks that disappear in certain rapids at high tide become major obstacles when the water is low, and most rafters carry a tide chart in their boats’ dry boxes alongside their map.
Unlike ocean tides, however, the river’s regular fluctuations have nothing to do with the gravitational pull of the moon. They are driven by the power demands of the Southwest.
With 40 million people dependent on water from the Colorado River, power generation isn’t the primary concern for water managers.

SpaceNut · 2022-05-30 13:48:56

https://www.ge.com/content/dam/gepower/ … ration.pdf
POWER TO GAS: HYDROGEN FOR POWER GENERATION
Fuel Flexible Gas Turbines as Enablers for a Low or Reduced Carbon Energy Ecosystem

Data for the dam

http://gcdamp.com/index.php?title=HYDROPOWER

Glen Canyon Dam is the second highest (710 feet) concrete-arch dam in the United States, second only to Hoover Dam which stands at 726 feet. The 26.2 million acre-feet of water storage capacity in Lake Powell, created by Glen Canyon Dam, serves as a ‘bank account’ of water that is drawn on in times of drought. This stored water has made it possible to successfully weather extended dry periods by sustaining the needs of cities, industries, and agriculture throughout the West.
Hydroelectric power produced by the dam’s eight generators helps meet the electrical needs of the West’s rapidly growing population. With a total capacity of 1,320 megawatts, Glen Canyon Powerplant produces around five billion kilowatt-hours of hydroelectric power annually which is distributed by the Western Area Power Administration to Wyoming, Utah, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, and Nebraska.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glen_Canyon_Dam

Because of fluctuating demands on the electrical grid, the dam release into the Colorado River rises and falls dramatically on a daily basis. After the dam was completed in 1964, there were few restrictions on hydro-power generation. The minimum dam release was set at a meager 1,000 cubic feet per second (28 m3/s) (increased to 3,000 cubic feet per second (85 m3/s) during the summer whitewater rafting season), with a maximum of 31,500 cubic feet per second (890 m3/s) during peak times; to respond to changing power demands, river flows could double or even triple in the space of an hour.
The EIS completed March 21, 1995 cemented some restrictions on dam operations, limiting the maximum power release to 25,000 cubic feet per second (710 m3/s), the maximum hourly "ramp-up" (increase in river flow) to 4,000 cubic feet per second (110 m3/s), and the maximum "ramp-down" to 1,500 cubic feet per second (42 m3/s).[137] The minimum dam release was set to 8,000 cubic feet per second (230 m3/s) during the day and 5,000 cubic feet per second (140 m3/s) at night. Flood control releases are allowed to go higher, but must remain constant for the entire month
Between 1980 and 2013, Glen Canyon Dam generated an average of 4,717 gigawatt hours (GWh) per year, enough for about 400,000 homes. The highest was 8,703 GWh in 1984, and the lowest was 3,299 GWh in 2005.

https://www.glencanyon.org/wp-content/u … w-Full.pdf

https://www.usbr.gov/uc/rm/crsp/gc/

The powerplant, consisting of eight hydroelectric generating units with a combined capacity of 1,320 megawatts, is a significant part of the CRSP power resources with 79 percent of the total CRSP capacity.
It would take 2.5 million tons of coal or 11 million barrels of oil each year to generate the same amount of power (based upon an approximate conversion rate of 580 kilowatt-hours per barrel of oil and 1,822 kilowatt-hours per ton of coal).

It is still hard to pin down the water rates to make the turbines power.

SpaceNut · 2022-05-30 14:06:07

hydrogen electrolysis power requirements

https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/h … ectrolysis

Solid oxide electrolyzers must operate at temperatures high enough for the solid oxide membranes to function properly (about 700°–800°C, compared to PEM electrolyzers, which operate at 70°–90°C, and commercial alkaline electrolyzers, which typically operate at less than 100°C). Advanced lab-scale solid oxide electrolyzers based on proton-conducting ceramic electrolytes are showing promise for lowering the operating temperature to 500°–600°C. The solid oxide electrolyzers can effectively use heat available at these elevated temperatures (from various sources, including nuclear energy) to decrease the amount of electrical energy needed to produce hydrogen from water.

The electrolysis process uses between 40-50kWh to generate 1 kg of hydrogen. So, using the lower end of that range, the electric power required for 250 kg of H2 is about 10 mWh, which, when scaled up to the full launch amount, is about 10000mWh, or roughly 415 mw of generating capacity working 24 hrs a day is required to supply the hydrogen for a single launch.

a256b9_3b8e2a4f8b3d493fa3f3b89fca5f3eae~mv2.webp

https://www.fuelcellstore.com/hydrogen- … 10-s20-s40

Water Electrolysis
The water electrolysis processing is highly power intensive because of the energy of the bond strength between the hydrogen and oxygen atoms. The electrolysis of water requires a minimum of 237.13 kilojoules of electrical energy input to dissociate each mole of liquid water. Each mole of water gives you 2 grams of hydrogen and 16 grams of oxygen gases. Put another way, commercially available electrolysis systems require about 50 kilowatt-hours of power to produce one kilogram of hydrogen and eight kilograms of oxygen gas from nine kilograms of liquid water.

https://www.carboncommentary.com/blog/2 … on-economy

https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/h … ectrolysis

it appears that the electrical power is converted to only 80% of it in hydrogen produced.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water

SpaceNut · 2022-05-30 14:48:49

this contains the 4 type and temperature pg 32
https://irena.org/-/media/Files/IRENA/A … t_2020.pdf

Cummins How to build an electrolyser

SpaceNut · 2022-05-31 09:28:20

While we have a total of parts that are free we still need many things that come at a cost to scale of what we are trying to create

tahanson43206 · 2022-08-26 12:28:02

This post is just to note the I saw several Internet news feed headlines indicating that China and India may become major suppliers of Green Hydrogen.

Neither country has a problem with nuclear power, so the advantage of using nuclear power to make Green Hydrogen is available to them.

The market for Green Hydrogen to Europe looks favorable, from impressions I am getting.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-08-26 19:45:37

If the source of the hydrogen is from sea water ok but if it's from land aquafers system, we are in trouble.

tahanson43206 · 2022-08-26 19:54:10

For SpaceNut re #33....

Not ** we ** ... ** they ** .... the US seems (to me at least) highly unlikely to employ nuclear energy for production of Green Hydrogen.

it seems to me the way-of-thinking (to use nuclear energy to make electricity for the retail market) is so well established no American can break out.

As an example .... the people of New Hampshire have a nuclear reactor, near the ocean, and they ** could ** enhance the plant to produce Green Hydrogen for the export market (to Europe). However, it would take a leader of remarkable vision and skill to change the thinking of millions of New Hampshire residents, and that seems to be too much to hope for.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-08-27 10:21:05

Power plants are not in it to make fuels as that is a use of power.

So, what is its cost versus creation.

Nuclear seen keeping costs down for ‘green’ hydrogen

“A single 1,000-megawatt nuclear power reactor could produce more than 200,000 tons of hydrogen each year to fuel more than 400,000 fuel cell vehicles or more than 16,000 long haul fuel cell trucks,”

Why other source of power generation is not going to cut it

To generate 436 TWh would require some 26,000, 4.8 MW-wind turbines covering an area of 10.8 million acres, around the size of Denmark.

The dream is low cost but reality

Other country’s hydrogen ambitions have also raised eyebrows, with the U.S.’s Hydrogen Shot Summit earlier in September calling for a “1 1 1” goal – $1 per 1 kilo in 1 decade.
“If we can lower the cost of clean hydrogen to $1 per 1 kilogram, we’ll have the means to decarbonize industrial manufacturing … to refuel hydrogen fuel cell trucks and make alternative, low-carbon fuel for planes … to produce clean ammonia and other chemicals … to create longer.
Current prices of hydrogen from purely renewable sources produced at a grid-connected hydrolyzer are $8.81 per kilo and seen falling to $5.77 per kilo by 2050, according to the study commissioned by the International Council on Clean Transportation, ‘Assessment of Hydrogen Production Costs from Electrolysis: United States and Europe.’

tahanson43206 · 2022-08-27 10:38:45

For SpaceNut re #35

Thank you for your comprehensive search and report on the theme that nuclear power can produce hydrogen at a competitive price!

The cost data you found and posted shows the competitive environment into which advocates of nuclear power to produce useful goods instead of wasting it on electric power is most encouraging.

The idea of wasting nuclear power for electric grid is ** so ** 20th Century!

Value added products are the direction nuclear power advocates (and actual producers) need to be looking.

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-10-11 05:16:25

Scientists retrofit diesel engines to use hydrogen as fuel, increasing efficiency 26%

https://interestingengineering.com/inno … rogen-fuel

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-29 13:49:30

https://www.yahoo.com/news/oklahoma-ark … 06477.html

The Oklahoman
Oklahoma, Arkansas and Louisiana's plan to build hydrogen energy hub draws federal interest
Dale Denwalt, Oklahoman
Thu, December 29, 2022 at 6:45 AM EST
Oklahoma, Arkansas and Louisiana could be one step closer to securing $1.25 billion in federal funding after the U.S. Department of Energy has asked for more information about how the states would use the money to develop regional infrastructure for the production, transportation and storage of hydrogen as a fuel source.
The three states originally launched a partnership this year to create the HALO Hydrogen Hub, which could eventually be part of a network of clean hydrogen producers, consumers and connective infrastructure. The Department of Energy's goal is to to accelerate the use of hydrogen as a clean energy carrier that can deliver or store tremendous amounts of energy, and it plans to spend about $7 billion across the country to create that network.
President Joe Biden has set a goal of building a 100%-clean electrical grid by 2035, and net-zero carbon emissions by 2050. Oklahoma Gov. Kevin Stitt said the state has a "more of everything" approach, and partnering to create the HALO Hydrogen Hub will further diversify the nation's energy portfolio.
"Oklahoma is honored to be included in the DOE invitation to submit a bid for the Regional Clean Hydrogen Hubs Program. We share with Arkansas and Louisiana the same goal for production, use and economic impact that can result from creating a hydrogen economy," Stitt said. "The opportunities and abundant resources in Oklahoma complement our partners, and I am confident that our three state coalition can land this hub and become the nation’s heartland for hydrogen."
Stitt, Arkansas Gov. Asa Hutchinson and Louisiana Gov. John Bel Edwards are banking on their states' extensive history with fuel infrastructure and production as they seek out the $1.25 billion program grant. The HALO Hub concept paper was submitted to the Department of Energy on Nov. 5, and the agency formally asked the states to submit a full application for funds by April 7, 2023.
An agreement signed by the governors in March promised to rely upon, utilize and partner with Historically Black Colleges and Universities, and tribal governments, to grow and cultivate expertise in the field.
According to the Department of Energy, the United States produces about 10 million metric tons of hydrogen each year. Current demand for hydrogen primarily comes from petroleum refining and ammonia production. However, hydrogen can be used across multiple sectors to enable zero or near-zero emissions in other chemical and industrial processes, integrated clean energy systems and transportation.
In 2021, a task force led by Kenneth Wagner, who at the time served as Oklahoma's secretary of energy, produced a report predicting that Oklahoma could add more than 6,000 jobs to its economy if hydrogen efforts were pursued.
The report also predicts hydrogen production could generate an additional annual impact on the state's economy of between $1.5 billion and $2.5 billion, based on demand for the fuel.
This conceptual image shows a liquid hydrogen production facility that Australia-based Woodside aims to build in Ardmore. The project was announced a year ago after the the state issued a report describing the potential of Oklahoma's hydrogen economy. A few months later, Oklahoma partnered with Arkansas and Louisiana to develop a regional hydrogen hub.
This conceptual image shows a liquid hydrogen production facility that Australia-based Woodside aims to build in Ardmore. The project was announced a year ago after the the state issued a report describing the potential of Oklahoma's hydrogen economy. A few months later, Oklahoma partnered with Arkansas and Louisiana to develop a regional hydrogen hub.
More
This article originally appeared on Oklahoman: Oklahoma asked to submit application for hydrogen hub grants

(th)

Void · 2023-01-04 12:13:55

Here is a chew toy. I don't know how valid it is: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 60fe04c8f8
Quote:

Breakthroughs represent ‘major leap’ towards making energy out of thin air
Story by Andrew Griffin • 31m ago

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-01-04 12:14:58)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-19 11:32:55

Research progress at University of Michigan - artificial photosynthesis to release hydrogen from water

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/scie … 00334.html

Oilprice.com
Scientists Make Major Breakthrough In Sustainable Hydrogen Production
Editor OilPrice.com
Wed, January 18, 2023 at 1:00 PM EST
University of Michigan scientists developed a new kind of solar panel achieving 9% efficiency in converting water into hydrogen and oxygen – mimicking a crucial step in natural photosynthesis. Outdoors, it represents a major leap in the technology, nearly 10 times more efficient than solar water-splitting experiments of its kind.
But the biggest benefit is driving down the cost of sustainable hydrogen. This is enabled by shrinking the semiconductor, typically the most expensive part of the device. The team’s self-healing semiconductor withstands concentrated light equivalent to 160 suns.

Currently, humans primarily produce hydrogen from the fossil fuel methane, using a great deal of fossil energy in the process. However, plants harvest hydrogen atoms from water using sunlight. As humanity tries to reduce its carbon emissions, hydrogen is attractive as both a standalone fuel and as a component in sustainable fuels made with recycled carbon dioxide. Likewise, it is needed for many chemical processes, producing fertilizers for instance.
Zetian Mi, U-M professor of electrical and computer engineering led the study as reported in the journal in Nature. Mi said, “In the end, we believe that artificial photosynthesis devices will be much more efficient than natural photosynthesis, which will provide a path toward carbon neutrality.”
The outstanding result comes from two advances.
The first is the ability to concentrate the sunlight without destroying the semiconductor that harnesses the light.
Peng Zhou, U-M research fellow in electrical and computer engineering and first author of the study said, “We reduced the size of the semiconductor by more than 100 times compared to some semiconductors only working at low light intensity. Hydrogen produced by our technology could be very cheap.”
The second is using both the higher energy part of the solar spectrum to split water and the lower part of the spectrum to provide heat that encourages the reaction. The magic is enabled by a semiconductor catalyst that improves itself with use, resisting the degradation that such catalysts usually experience when they harness sunlight to drive chemical reactions.
In addition to handling high light intensities, it can thrive in high temperatures that are punishing to computer semiconductors. Higher temperatures speed up the water splitting process, and the extra heat also encourages the hydrogen and oxygen to remain separate rather than renewing their bonds and forming water once more. Both of these helped the team to harvest more hydrogen.
For the outdoor experiment, Zhou set up a lens about the size of a house window to focus sunlight onto an experimental panel just a few inches across. Within that panel, the semiconductor catalyst was covered in a layer of water, bubbling with the hydrogen and oxygen gasses it separated.
The catalyst is made of indium gallium nitride nanostructures, grown onto a silicon surface. That semiconductor wafer captures the light, converting it into free electrons and holes – positively charged gaps left behind when electrons are liberated by the light. The nanostructures are peppered with nanoscale balls of metal, 1/2000th of a millimeter across, that use those electrons and holes to help direct the reaction.
A simple insulating layer atop the panel keeps the temperature at a toasty 75° Celsius, or 167° Fahrenheit, warm enough to help encourage the reaction while also being cool enough for the semiconductor catalyst to perform well. The outdoor version of the experiment, with less reliable sunlight and temperature, achieved 6.1% efficiency at turning the energy from the sun into hydrogen fuel. However, indoors, the system achieved 9% efficiency.
The next challenges the team intends to tackle are to further improve the efficiency and to achieve ultrahigh purity hydrogen that can be directly fed into fuel cells.
Some of the intellectual property related to this work has been licensed to NS Nanotech Inc. and NX Fuels Inc., which were co-founded by Mi. The University of Michigan and Mi have a financial interest in both companies.
***
This is quite the improvement! 9% efficiency might be a new record. What is left to answer would be the costs. One would need a lens of some substantial size, likely a lens steering system and a controlled environment to make it “indoor”.
However the economics work out, this plus a super economical means to form up nitrogen fertilizer would be a huge contribution to the world economy. That would save the cost of trying to store the hydrogen thus simplify rapid adoption.
Lets hope the progress continues!
By Brian Westenhaus via New Energy and Fuel
More Top Reads From Oilprice.com:

For whatever reason, these researchers appear to have used a lens to gather light, rather than a mirror.

If anyone can discover the nature of the lens (and why it was chosen) please post an update in this topic.

(th)

Void · 2023-01-19 21:05:58

I am not sure. Maybe one of these Fresnel Lense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_lens

Perhaps this will amuse you, I think it uses such: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=3D … &FORM=VIRE
Image Quote:
Quote:

1: Cross-section of Buffon/Fresnel lens. 2: Cross-section of conventional plano-convex lens of equivalent power. (Buffon's version was biconvex.[6])

Whatever they use it will be wanted on Mars for both reasons.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-19 21:11:32)

SpaceNut · 2023-02-03 19:03:58

tahanson43206 wrote:

This post about improved desalination technique could fit well in several topics ...
I'll start it here:
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/clea … 42411.html
Engadget
Researchers can now pull hydrogen directly from seawater, no filtering required
It could eventually produce cheap, renewable energy for coastal areas.
lingqi xie via Getty Images
Will Shanklin
Will Shanklin·Contributing Reporter
Fri, February 3, 2023 at 4:40 PM EST
Researchers at the University of Adelaide announced this week that they made clean hydrogen fuel from seawater without pre-treatment. Demand for hydrogen fuel, a clean energy source that only produces water when burned, is expected to increase in the coming years as the world (hopefully) continues to pivot away from fossil fuels. The findings could eventually provide cheaper green energy production to coastal areas.
“We have split natural seawater into oxygen and hydrogen with nearly 100 per cent efficiency, to produce green hydrogen by electrolysis, using a non-precious and cheap catalyst in a commercial electrolyser,” said Professor Shizhang Qiao, the team’s co-lead. Seawater typically needs to be purified before electrolysis splits it into hydrogen and oxygen. The team says its results, using cobalt oxide with chromium oxide on its surface as the catalyst, had similar performance to a standard process of applying platinum and iridium catalysts to highly purified and deionized water.
Compared to freshwater, seawater is an abundant resource, and the ability to extract hydrogen fuel from seawater without pre-treatment could save money. However, even if successfully scaled, it would likely only be practical for coastal communities with plenty of seawater — not so much for Iowa or Kansas.
The team’s next step is to scale the system with a larger electrolyzer. Then, although it’s still early in development, the researchers hope to eventually apply the findings to commercial hydrogen production for fuel cells and ammonia synthesis. Co-lead Yao Zheng summarized, “Our work provides a solution to directly utilise seawater without pre-treatment systems and alkali addition, which shows similar performance as that of existing metal-based mature pure water electrolyser.”
(th)

Of course, if the power source is clean then this is only going to work when that power is local to the ocean water.

Void · 2023-02-03 20:10:50

I agree to a large extent. Another ingredient is social structures.

Some cultures have turned their backs on invention and technology. This can perhaps happen in an Alpha driven culture where the structure of society is all about the breeding of Alpha males.

I am confused about California. Seems to me that something that should not be there is there. But not my problem. If it is out of place, it will change.

As per a western/somewhat British heritage, I suspect that at least some parts of Australia will not be Alpha breeding dominated. So, perhaps they might indeed do power to gas at some point.

I do see that Bill Gates is into a Solar Concentrating system that is supposed to be able to cook up Hydrogen. I believe it is this: https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/19/business … index.html

Let me make it clear. I am not opposed to men being male. Really contrary to that don't so much care for those who may pander to be shamefully subordinate if they don't have to be. But a culture which honors alpha male breeding as it's center point, does not honor invention or technology. Rather the alphas will steal the wealth created by inventors and technological people and try to breed with their women. This is the path back to apehood. Many cultures suffer from this and therefore they are poor and getting poorer.

Done.
.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-03 20:17:43)

Void · 2023-02-04 08:56:41

This looks interesting: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 30c00b949e

Quote:

Engadget
Engadget
View Profile
Researchers can now pull hydrogen directly from seawater, no filtering required
Story by Will Shanklin • Yesterday 3:40 PM
19 Comments

Actually, if you were in Kansas, I think you could recycle the sea salt.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-02-04 08:58:03)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-03-20 07:14:44

I know there is an aircraft or airplane thread somewhere

Hydrogen-powered planes: the future of travel, or just a fantasy? The arguments of the hydrogen skeptics are difficult to ignore: they’re based on the basic science of how hydrogen works.
https://inews.co.uk/news/hydrogen-power … sy-2213334

Hydrogen-powered long haul aircraft are currently being promoted by some as the solution to decarbonizing air travel. Yet the closer you look at the physics and economics the more dubious it appears for this particular application. Reasons include its low energy density relative to jet fuel, the need for cryogenic storage tanks to keep it cooled to -253 degrees C, complete lack of hydrogen refueling infrastructure at airports and the huge energy costs of making truly green hydrogen.

Hydrogen will have a place in a net-zero economy but unfortunately it is being hyped for many uses that it's not ideal for.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-03-20 07:15:01)

Void · 2023-08-12 15:15:11

Well, this is interesting, "Geological Hydrogen". I just stumbled upon it.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pr … 3d157&ei=6

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsma … 46ad7e61c8

Quote:

Potentially, “it's 150 trillion metric tons,” Wicks said. “One billion tons would power the United States for a full year.”

I am guessing that it comes from interactions of hot rocks and water near the fault lines.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … n%20nature.
Quote:

Hydrogen has been detected at high concentrations, often as the major gas, in all types of geologic environment. A critical evaluation of all the proposed mechanisms regarding the origin of natural hydrogen shows that a deep-seated origin is potentially the most likely explanation for its abundance in nature.

I don't think that life is the major source, but I might be wrong.

We might wonder about Mars for all it "Faults" it to may have Hydrogen.

Done

https://www.usgs.gov/news/featured-stor … ion-energy
So perhaps mostly Abiotic: AAAS%20Image.png?itok=uQ9cZEYV

Not dead Dinosaurs apparently, I don't think they buried their dead that deep.

Hope it's real!

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-12 15:29:40)

Void · 2023-08-13 09:56:04

I am often easily taken in by silly notions, but this one is worth risking being silly about I think.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1dPluA Quote:

Limitless ‘white’ hydrogen under our feet may soon shatter all energy assumptions

The phrases "Geologic Hydrogen" and "White Hydrogen" seem to call up references.

This seems to be Hydrogen generated by the reaction of water to Iron, Heat in Rocks, and radioactive decay. Cracks in the Earth seem to be where it hangs out.

There is the Mariner Rift Valley, and Cerberus Fossae: https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … sumptions/

Image Quote: DAA7D1B9-FFC9-4453-99179899986A30E9_source.jpg?w=590&h=800&FAF97BA6-AFA0-4B8D-87D68505E2B2D565

Of course, back on Earth, the talk is that there is likely to be significant geologic Hydrogen in North America, Australia, and Europe.

I guess we may find out.

Done.

Here is another article about such Hydrogen on Earth: https://energycentral.com/news/white-hy … rce-energy

It is my opinion that it may be possible to frack rock with iron in it and inject hot water into it and so stimulate the creation of such Hydrogen. And this could be a way to store summer heat from concentrating mirrors as well. But I don't know if the productivity would justify the effort, if Natural Hydrogen is in abundance anyway.

Done.

If this turns out to be true then no regreta's.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-13 10:20:57)

Void · 2023-08-13 11:53:26

(th) made a request: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p212478
Quote:

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 14,486
Email
Very recently (2023/08/11-12) Void published a link to a report on geological stores of Hydrogen.
For Void ... please continue looking for news about this re-discovery, and post whatever you find in the topic.
At the bottom of the report, as you would surely have noted, there is discussion of the value proposition for large companies that are invested in their underground stocks of hydrocarbons.
I note that the assumed deposits exist along geological fault lines, but those have moved as the eons have gone by, so that for a modern driller, the deposits might be anywhere.
I would be particularly interested, to take just one example, if a huge deposit were directly under SpaceNut's house in New Hampshire.
(th)

Well, I found a bit of something: Geologic Hydrogen:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=white+hyd … 5F&pc=U531
Quote:

There are at least two major areas of the country that have favorable geology for the generation of significant volumes of hydrogen. These lie along the Atlantic coastal plain and in the central U.S., underlying parts of the Great Plains and the Upper Midwest.
The Atlantic area of interest stretches along most of the East Coast and is associated with a band of iron-rich rock layers buried deep beneath the ocean floor. These rocks were deposited as the Atlantic Ocean basin formed. Geophysical surveys have confirmed that some of the iron in these rocks has reacted with water and produced hydrogen, which most likely escaped from the iron-rich rocks and migrated along sedimentary layers toward the shore.

So, maybe.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-13 12:00:58)

Void · 2023-08-13 17:37:47

Having another look at this: https://www.usgs.gov/news/featured-stor … %20Midwest.

If one high potential place is the East Coast, that would be near offshore wind which could be convenient.

As for the Midwest???

Image Quote: Screenshot%201.png?itok=VmbSPKJX

I believe that the rift continues down to the Southwest as well.

But for up here, what about wind?

https://windexchange.energy.gov/maps-data
This seems like a good map: https://windexchange.energy.gov/maps-data/332

So, that looks rather good.

I expect high latitude solar schemes to improve, along with heat pumps, and maybe even superconductors.

So, not so regretable.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-13 17:49:15)

Void · 2023-08-16 10:49:51

I have a request. I seem to recall, that a very long time ago, Terraformer was in a conversation discussing burning Hydrogen in CO2.

I think it has to be a 400 degrees? (C or F?).

I know that microbes can make a living off of consuming Geologic Hydrogen and Carbon compounds in rocks. This is said to be how some petroleum is produced. (It used to be forbidden to say that, for some reason it was required to believe that old vegetation heated in deep rock was the source of Hydrocarbons).

For the moment I am of course considering Mars: https://www.science.org/content/article … -free-fuel Quote:

The Malian discovery was vivid evidence for what a small group of scientists, studying hints from seeps, mines, and abandoned wells, had been saying for years: Contrary to conventional wisdom, large stores of natural hydrogen may exist all over the world, like oil and gas—but not in the same places. These researchers say water-rock reactions deep within the Earth continuously generate hydrogen, which percolates up through the crust and sometimes accumulates in underground traps. There might be enough natural hydrogen to meet burgeoning global demand for thousands of years, according to a U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) model that was presented in October 2022 at a meeting of the Geological Society of America.

Of course, this could be a "White Elephant" story, sometimes they are, but it seems logical to me.

I am old enough that I recall that at that time of my youth "Experts" said the Baken could never provide much of its oil reserves at all.
And I suppose because no one had tried, and the technology did not exist, the expert was correct, sort of and then not correct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakken_Formation

I am thinking that it would be quite a find to get Geologic/Natural/White Hydrogen from Mars.

If you could burn it, the result might be water and Methane, I think, depending on what the Oxidizer was.

So, yes, I know you could grow microbes with Hydrogen and the Martian Atmosphere. Can you do combustion?

If you added solar heat, could you do better combustion?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-16 11:00:07)

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#26 2022-05-26 18:20:13

Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution

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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution

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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution

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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution

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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution

#32 2022-08-26 12:28:02

Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution

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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution

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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution

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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution

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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution

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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution

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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution

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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution

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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution

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#45 2023-03-20 07:14:44

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#46 2023-08-12 15:15:11

Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution

#47 2023-08-13 09:56:04

Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution

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Re: Hydrogen Production Moving to Mainstream Green solution

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