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#26 2004-03-28 09:34:20

dicktice
Member
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2002-11-01
Posts: 1,764

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

Personally i dont see why resurrection and miracles should be discussed in the context of finding life on Mars!Jesus of Nazareth story is a political..historical one that belongs to earth...now whether one believes in a divine dimension to this event is something that depends on each individuals beliefs.

Didn't Julius Ceasar proclaim himself a god?

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#27 2004-03-28 09:42:56

dicktice
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From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2002-11-01
Posts: 1,764

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

Conscience lies with the soul, not the brain.  Your soul is that little voice inside of your head that you've been talking to your whole life.

The body is capable of regenerating every cell and actually living forever.  It only dies when the soul departs.  When we seem to die but somehow 'wake' up it just that the soul remained with the body during that time until the body could recover.

There is no gap between science and true religion.  They are one in the same.

Please define what you mean by SOUL--and by the way, whatever happened to the MIND in your after-death scenario?

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#28 2004-03-28 12:00:42

dickbill
Member
Registered: 2002-09-28
Posts: 749

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

Introducing religion here was my mistake, but hey, who doesn't...
On the pure materialistic ground, we can say something that has been repeated many times before, that if life is present on Earth and Mars, then we are not so special here on Earth and we must expect many other cases elsewhere, including probably intelligent beings.   
That might also reinforce the pure materialist/scientific/darwininian point of view that Life is a kind of chemical reaction, nothing more, and could also weakened the spiritual point of view that life is special and has been created by God, weakening the concept of God itself. If this could make religions less extremist in their certitude, that would be good actually.

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#29 2004-03-28 14:35:32

Julius Caeser
Member
From: Malta
Registered: 2004-03-25
Posts: 105

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

dont agree with that dickbill.We havent yet discussed who created the chemical reactions for life..the laws of physics and chemistry in the universe that form the basis for reactions which have developed into what we see today..including possible life on Mars.

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#30 2004-03-28 16:33:37

dickbill
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Registered: 2002-09-28
Posts: 749

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

dont agree with that dickbill.We havent yet discussed who created the chemical reactions for life..the laws of physics and chemistry in the universe that form the basis for reactions which have developed into what we see today..including possible life on Mars.

OK, so, to go even more simple I will ask it like that :

You don't think that finding extra-terrestrial life will reinforce materialism over spirituality ?
If life is discovered, it's a little bit like the Copernician revolution which moved Earth out of the center of the universe, each time, the anthropocentric view of the universe that places Man at a special position is challenged, to say the least. We are not at the center, we are not even the ONE, like the Jews choosen by God to be the Choosen One, or  like Keanu Reeves in the Matrix.
Because of that, I like the idea to find life on Mars.

Regarding "who" created the law of physic and "why", maybe it is also an anthropocentric question. At least finding life on Mars can help answer the "how", probably not the "who".

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#31 2004-03-29 05:30:58

Julius Caeser
Member
From: Malta
Registered: 2004-03-25
Posts: 105

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

Dickbill,that was exactly what i meant in the first place.Since finding Life on Mars wont question WHO created it,then it will still leave space for the church to preach about God as THE CREATOR of everything!The significance of that could have different meaning in the sense that whereas before, God was seen as creator of earth and life here,now GOd will be creator of the Universe including any alien species that might exist! Ofcourse it would be much easier to  accomodate whats written in the book of GENESIS to the new truth about life in the universe then having to interpret all the details in the life of Jesus of Nazareth. :;):

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#32 2004-03-29 10:14:44

lunarmark
Banned
From: UK
Registered: 2004-03-04
Posts: 53

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

You can look into the recent past to an answer to this, when NASA announced it had found a fossilised microbe in a Martian meteorite a few years ago (although this has since proved to be controversial)

what happened? - nothing!

There where no religious outcrys, there was no mass hysteria in fact 99% of the population didnt care, justg carried on 'watching TV and eating Pizza' - as always!

I really think finding non-intelligent life will have little effect on mankind, we (man) aren't even too bothered at finding new life forms (species) on our own planet!!

No I reckon there will be a few news headlines then, life goes on as normal... :band:


'I'd sooner belive that two Yankee professor's would lie, than that rocks can fall from the sky' - Thomas Jefferson, 1807

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#33 2004-03-29 10:22:13

Bill White
Member
Registered: 2001-09-09
Posts: 2,114

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

Dickbill,that was exactly what i meant in the first place.Since finding Life on Mars wont question WHO created it,then it will still leave space for the church to preach about God as THE CREATOR of everything!The significance of that could have different meaning in the sense that whereas before, God was seen as creator of earth and life here,now GOd will be creator of the Universe including any alien species that might exist! Ofcourse it would be much easier to  accomodate whats written in the book of GENESIS to the new truth about life in the universe then having to interpret all the details in the life of Jesus of Nazareth. :;):

This is interesting:

[http://www.mt.net/~watcher/ufovatican.html]http://www.mt.net/~watcher/ufovatican.html

or this:

Would you baptize an ET? (asked to a Jesuit priest):

[http://www.beliefnet.com/story/35/story_3519_1.html]http://www.beliefnet.com/story/35/story_3519_1.html

We have no data about other, nonhuman civilizations. They may not even exist; or they may be plentiful. (To insist that “God could not have made other worlds” was declared a heresy back in the thirteenth century—so this even covers alternate or parallel universes!) ETs may not be aware of the idea of an Incarnation, or they may have their own experience of the matter. Their experience may be so alien from ours that even though they have experienced God in their own way, it’s an experience that we will never be able to share, nor they share in our experience.

In the 13th century, the Roman Catholic Church declared it a  heresy to deny the POSSIBILITY that God created other worlds and other sentient species. ET won't bother the Catholics.  :;):

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#34 2004-03-29 11:40:06

Julius Caeser
Member
From: Malta
Registered: 2004-03-25
Posts: 105

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

Billwhite,                                                                          AGREED...  I believe consensus has been reached!

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#35 2004-03-29 12:01:07

Byron
Member
From: Florida, USA
Registered: 2002-05-16
Posts: 844

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

I really think finding non-intelligent life will have little effect on mankind, we (man) aren't even too bothered at finding new life forms (species) on our own planet!!

No I reckon there will be a few news headlines then, life goes on as normal... :band:

As much I hate to think it, you might be absolutely right... ???   

Sure, there might be a big hoopla in the media for a while, but like most anything else, people would quickly tire of the news and move on to debating such things about who's going to be our next president, etc.

I think it would take the discovery of intelligent life or irrefutable evidence thereof to really shake people's religious and/or spiritual beliefs...

B

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#36 2004-04-02 17:55:02

Dook
Banned
From: USA
Registered: 2004-01-09
Posts: 1,409

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

Response to Dickbill's question:  I believe the mind and soul are one.  I think that voice inside you head is your soul=mind, not your brain.  The brain is nothing but tissue.  I believe the soul is some kind of sentient energy.  Still trying to figure a lot of this out but so far that's what I believe.

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#37 2004-04-02 19:59:43

Palomar
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

*My speculations on brain-consciousness-soul:  I'm skeptical about the existence of a "soul" [defined as a phenomenon independent of the brain's functions].  I think the "soul" is simply another word for -consciousness- [synonymous with "mind"]...which is dependent upon the brain's chemistry.  Alter the chemistry and you alter consciousness (alcohol, medications/drugs...).  Deprive the brain of blood (which carries the consciousness-maintaining and/or consciousness-stimulating chemicals [either natural biochemicals or chemicals introduced into the blood stream]), the brain dies and consciousness goes with it.

Just my 2 cents'.

--Cindy


We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#38 2004-04-03 04:00:52

atomoid
Member
From: Santa Cruz, CA
Registered: 2004-02-13
Posts: 252

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

Maybe the brain is more like an evolved system that takes advantage of limited physical processes in perhaps the only way to enable a spirit dimension to be expressed, not that the dimension is *created* by the brain (as if it were a causation), but more in that the brain serves as the net or catalyst or template onto which the existent spirit dimension (or however you see it) precipitates out as conciousness.


"I think it would be a good idea". - [url=http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Mahatma_Gandhi/]Mahatma Gandhi[/url], when asked what he thought of Western civilization.

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#39 2004-04-03 19:27:47

Dook
Banned
From: USA
Registered: 2004-01-09
Posts: 1,409

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

I think your conscience=soul kind of takes a step back when alcohol or drugs are involved that's why sometimes when you are drunk you do things that you wouldn't normally do.  I do believe there is a connection between the mind and soul.  Maybe it's as far down as your sub-conscience, but it's there.

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#40 2004-04-03 22:00:26

dickbill
Member
Registered: 2002-09-28
Posts: 749

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

Response to Dickbill's question:  I believe the mind and soul are one.  I think that voice inside you head is your soul=mind, not your brain.  The brain is nothing but tissue.  I believe the soul is some kind of sentient energy.  Still trying to figure a lot of this out but so far that's what I believe.

"some sort of energy", well, beside the neuronal metabolic energy which is probably not what we are looking for, I think that we should consider the content of information in the brain as an energy equivalent "of some sort" as you said.
Mathematicians have look at that issue. From memory, I think a guy called Kolmodorov or one of his collegue, worked on that issue and proved that it takes energy to erased the information content in a computer. Some energy must be released when the information is killed, then ? I am not sure to interpret correctly his theorem.
I also wonder, all the information and order, or negantropy, created by humankind, must pump out a serious amount of equivalent disorder into the cosmos. And some kind of questions like that : do we really "create" information/order or do we pump it from an invisible pool that would contain all the information possible and imaginable in the universe ?
Pretty much metaphysical issues I know...

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#41 2004-04-04 01:42:10

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,669

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

No diss to Christianity, but how will *other* religions look at Exo-life? Like Buddhism, Judeism, Islam, Bahá'ís... (RobS, question for you, heh...) Hindu...

Are some 'against' the idea or maybe taking it already for granted... etc...

Disclaimer: i hope i didn't offend people by mistyping their religion, i'm non-english, so i sometimes make mistakes

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#42 2004-04-04 01:57:25

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,669

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

I also wonder, all the information and order, or negantropy, created by humankind, must pump out a serious amount of equivalent disorder into the cosmos. And some kind of questions like that : do we really "create" information/order or do we pump it from an invisible pool that would contain all the information possible and imaginable in the universe ?
Pretty much metaphysical issues I know...

Huh? why do you think that? (The pool-idea)
Doesn't information play by the entropy/order rules of the physical world, you mean? Information being order, thus 'requiring' energy to stay ordered, but 'making' chaos to keep the equation in balance? Isn't that 'made' chaos just heat?

I'd think information is a 'higher' order of energy, for it is certainly not entropy, so... Words/information chiseled in stone or stored in our brains, or in computers... it is all the same, no? It requires a non-entropic state, so it requires energy to stay that way... you put in energy to change the chaotic state, (and make chaos/heat-loss by doing so (esp. hammering away frantically at said stone, heh)  and (non-living, i mean physical, not biological) nature tends to go back to a basic entropic/chaotic state... (stone crumbles)

it takes energy to erased the information content in a computer. Some energy must be released when the information is killed, then

Yes, it's because you 'pumped' in energy to store the info... That's like why does our 'modern' metal rusts: we put in a lot of energy (foundry to purify, cast it,... remove the oxygen out of it...) and it 'wants' to go back to its natural state (oxide) likewise memorychips: you put in a 'charge' to change the on/off state, that energy is sometimes 'locked' chemically or magnetically etc, depending on what tech you use, but the essence stays the same... to change it takes energy... either way: to store it or 'lose' it... Always.

(Ok forget it, i can't discuss this in English, much less on a keyboard...)

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#43 2004-04-05 13:29:11

atomoid
Member
From: Santa Cruz, CA
Registered: 2004-02-13
Posts: 252

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

As an aside, order can be seen in many non-living and non-entropic systems. Hydrophobic membranes form as spheres without any real enegy input other than thermal movement merely due to the properties of the molecules they contain, much like magnets will assemble end to end without losing any energy to the system. Minerals crystalize when they lose heat and assemble into the pattern of least resistance. This doesnt mean that the ordering is active and requires an entropy cost (well, it does lose heat in the process, but thats a cause not an effect), the "information" that crystals or membranes or magnets typify is merely dictated by the natural laws. Not that I think this supports or refutes an argument for a god-ful or god-less universe, just an observation (and needless to say i might not be entirely correct in my understanding of it), i just dont think it necessarily takes energy to create information (order).


"I think it would be a good idea". - [url=http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Mahatma_Gandhi/]Mahatma Gandhi[/url], when asked what he thought of Western civilization.

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#44 2004-04-05 14:54:36

Bill White
Member
Registered: 2001-09-09
Posts: 2,114

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

Given a finite quantity of mass/energy, is there an absolute limit to the quantity of information that can be stored? Rather like asking if matter/energy is infinitely divisible or are there elemental building blocks that cannot be cut further.

Is everything scarce (using the economics meaning of the word)?

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#45 2004-04-05 15:04:54

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,669

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

Uhuh...

I am not a physicist, so just wildly jabbering away...

But that order you talk about, Atomoid... I'd intuitively call it 'random-order' (sounds contraintuitive, not to say contradictory..)

Like say, the beautiful snow christals: while they are all hexagonal in basic shape, they're all diferent, due to random interactions(?)
Hmmm... The only real 'order' is the fact that you could 'compress' the 'data' of a snowflake by only describing one-sixth of it, but that 1/6th compression just lies in the chemical properties of H2O (H-bridges)... Same with other christals... but they have cubic symmetry etc... The only data being 'orderly' is the way they interact-can interact...
So 'random-order'... Xtals are surely ordered more than loose molecules, but not *that* much... Like a very hot vessel containing H and O atoms, when cooling down, they form all nice identical H2O molecules, wich is more ordered than the chaotic atoms, but the water is still a chaotic 'thing,'... if you cool down further you get ice Xtals, wich is, again more orderly, but...
(I definitely am not a physicist! heh)

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#46 2004-04-05 15:11:05

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,669

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

Given a finite quantity of mass/energy, is there an absolute limit to the quantity of information that can be stored? Rather like asking if matter/energy is infinitely divisible or are there elemental building blocks that cannot be cut further.
Is everything scarce (using the economics meaning of the word)?

IIRC that has even been (roughly) calculated... Using all matter and energy in the known universe... But you could always use compression-techniques to get better performance, heh... Imagine a 'zipped' universe...

I think they used binary to calculate this, but it'd guess it was all wildly speculative (well, duh!)

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#47 2004-04-05 15:20:52

Bill White
Member
Registered: 2001-09-09
Posts: 2,114

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

Given a finite quantity of mass/energy, is there an absolute limit to the quantity of information that can be stored? Rather like asking if matter/energy is infinitely divisible or are there elemental building blocks that cannot be cut further.
Is everything scarce (using the economics meaning of the word)?

IIRC that has even been (roughly) calculated... Using all matter and energy in the known universe... But you could always use compression-techniques to get better performance, heh... Imagine a 'zipped' universe...

I think they used binary to calculate this, but it'd guess it was all wildly speculative (well, duh!)

Can you "zip" a "zipped" file? Data compression may be the key to this question. Is there a limit to the hypothetical ability to compress data?

Physicist Kip Thorne, IIRC, likes to do thought experiments starting with an infinitely advanced civilization - - the difference between the Ten Commandments carved on stone and a DVD is merely one of data compression, correct?

= = =

A "zipped" universe? Given the multi-verse hypothesis, why not?

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#48 2004-04-05 15:47:51

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,669

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

You can't 're-zip' indefinitely... At least not with information-loss. Otherwise we could get away with harddisks of very small sizes...
DVD vs 10 commandments is *not* a matter of mathematical compression, just a matter of physical 'compression' ie the 'letters' (ok, it's bits and bytes, of course) are just very much smaller on a DVD...

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#49 2022-08-15 12:56:16

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,774

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

Maybe they would be shocked or curious for a while but the religiously mad would continue to preach the crazy?

Haim Eshed alternatively romanized as Chaim Eshed a professor of aeronautics and astronautics at various space technology researchwas director of space programs for Israel Ministry of Defense former chair of the Space Committee of the National Council for Research and Development for the Ministry of Science, Technology and Space. Eshed did he lose his mind or make a joke or was he serious? he became notable for promoting a UFO conspiracy theory claiming that world governments were secretly working with aliens.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl … 68777.html
,
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/weird-news … s-n1250333

old news story
Iran Says 'Tall, White' Space Aliens Control America
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpec … l-america/

vid - What Do Scientologists Actually Believe?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC_6IlGR1wU

Scientology claims that it is fully compatible with all existing major world religions and that it does not conflict with them or their religious practices. There are, however, major differences in the beliefs and practices between Scientology and most religions, especially the major monotheistic religions. Members are not allowed to engage in other treatments or mental therapies (even if religious). However, some ministers from other churches have adopted some Scientology secular programs.
https://religion.fandom.com/wiki/Scient … _religions

Does the alien life have to be intelligent for it to impact religion?

How Will Religion React to Aliens? NASA Turned to Theologians to Find Out
https://www.themonastery.org/blog/how-w … o-find-out

NASA Research Gives Guideline for Future Alien Life Search
https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/na … ife-search

Astronomers detect molecules in exoplanet atmospheres by measuring the colors of light from the star the exoplanet is orbiting. As this light passes through the exoplanet's atmosphere, some of it is absorbed by atmospheric molecules. Different molecules absorb different colors of light, so astronomers use these absorption features as unique "signatures" of the type and quantity of molecules present.

“One of the main challenges in identifying life signatures is to distinguish between the products of life and those compounds generated by geological processes or chemical reactions in the atmosphere. For that we need to understand not only how life may change a planet but how planets work and the characteristics of the stars that host such worlds”, said Segura.

If we made contact with aliens, how would religions react?
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2016 … ions-react

With few exceptions, most of the discussions about Seti (the Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence) tend to stay in the domain of the hard sciences. But the implications of Seti extend well beyond biology and physics, reaching to the humanities and philosophy and even theology. As Carl Sagan has pointed out in (the now out-of-print book) The Cosmic Question, “space exploration leads directly to religious and philosophical questions”. We would need to consider whether our faiths could accommodate these new beings – or if it should shake our beliefs to the core.

Working out these questions might be called exotheology or astro-theology, terms defined by Ted Peters, Professor Emeritus in Theology at Pacific Lutheran Theological Seminary, to refer to “speculation on the theological significance of extraterrestrial life”. As he notes, Peters isn’t the first or only one to use the term, which dates back at least 300 years, to a 1714 publication titled ‘Astro-theology, or a Demonstration of the Being and Attributes of God From a Survey of the Heavens’.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-08-15 13:02:34)

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#50 2023-02-24 06:52:12

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,774

Re: If life really was discovered on Mars - how would people react?

Signs of Mars life may be too elusive for rovers to detect
https://www.space.com/mars-life-hunt-di … ple-return

Will an AI be the first to discover alien life?
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-00258-z

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