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#1 2023-02-23 13:27:24

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,312

Radiation Supported Life

I have been sitting on this for a few days.  It is about virtually all worlds not just Mars but we can think about it for Mars.
https://phys.org/news/2023-02-radioacti … rnova.html
Quote:

FEBRUARY 20, 2023

Radioactive isotopes reach Earth by surfing supernova blast waves, scientists discover
by University of Hertfordshire

Quote:

To reach Earth, these isotopes would have rained down from the sky at some point during the last couple of million years. Since deep-sea sediments accumulate layer by layer over time to form rocks, researchers were very puzzled by the fact that these three isotopes, originating from different types of stellar explosions, were found in rock layers of similar depth. Finding them at similar depths means that they must have arrived on Earth together, even though their origin sites are so vastly different.

If we couple that with life that eats air/Hydrogen/CO/Oxygen, then we have a basis for a biosphere, without photosynthesis.
https://newatlas.com/biology/air-eating … her%20life.
Quote:

Bacteria that "eat" only air found in cold deserts around the world
By Michael Irving
August 19, 2020

Actually a similar process driven by radiation works very well in ocean sediments, an in my opinion could produce an excess of Oxygen.

For a cold desert situation the Eating of Hydrogen gives the microbes water as well.

Lichen can be a bit active even at -20 C.

On Mars we can expect such environments under some rocks and soils when in the sunlight.

So, we have an infall of radioactive isotopes, Cosmic Rays and UV that may generated Hydrogen and CO.

We also have the solar wind which may mix Hydrogen directly into the Martian atmosphere.  (Maybe).

Just for the imagination, we could consider a Moon-Planet orbiting a brown dwarf or gas giant planet, and due to siblings, to be heated by tidal force to between that of Europa or Io.

So, maybe even open ocean waters.  Maybe it can retain an atmosphere.  And there is a constant influx of radiation and radioactive materials.  And this then may give the gifts of chemicals that life can live on.  Maybe you could even see stars on occasion.

It is a different notion of what seems to be a hateful nature of the universe.  In fact, abnormal stars from far away giving life to worlds afar.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-23 13:46:58)


Done.

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#2 2023-04-29 11:14:44

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,908

Re: Radiation Supported Life

For Void re new topic....

Please add more insights and links to this topic ....

Photons in the visual range (for humans) might be considered "radiation" for life supporting purposes.

I suspect you were thinking of electromagnetic radiation with more energy than is true for visible light photons.

In a recent post by Mars_B4_Moon, a link was provided that hinted that gamma rays might be refracted.

Gamma rays (apparently) be reflected, because they pass right through the space between atoms in whatever material might be used as a reflector, but apparently gamma rays can be refracted.

I'm not sure how this factoid could relate to your topic, since gamma rays are reported to be destructive of life, but I'll toss this hot potato into your topic to see what happens.

(th)

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#3 2023-04-29 13:45:24

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,312

Re: Radiation Supported Life

Well, thanks for visiting my forgotten topic.  I myself forgot it.

Allow (me to) do some word activity to relabel the definitions of some parts of our perceptions of reality.
1) All life relies on chemical energy.  At least all non-spirit, non-dark matter, non-else life.  Using the elements on the periodic table.  What we think we know about.
2) It relies on disequilibrium, of chemicals which may hold both energy and what is needed to build physical structures.
3) Some life can use energy from its outside to generate disequilibrium internally to itself, some must rely on disequilibrium which occurs outside of itself.
4) For item #3, some organisms can use certain wavelengths of light to create disequilibrium and this it a very large part of organisms that can do it internally and so also catalyze that process.  But nature is often generating disequilibrium in abiotic pathways as well, external to any organism.  Abiotic disequilibrium can also happen inside of an organism from a energy factor entering an organism, but this often causes "Damage" as it is often an unplanned for event.  Example, damage to DNA, which could be a fuel of sorts, but actually requires work from the organism to reset it to a pattern useful or at least not hostile to the survival of the organism.

We are mostly familiar with photosynthesis, but also have understood chemosynthesis, things that can eat and breath chemicals.  We are beginning to associate much of this with the flow of electricity as time passes.

There is an organism that seems to do very well in a nuclear reactor core.

This one lives in more natural conditions deep down:
Quote:

The Strange Species That Lives Off of Nuclear Energy Is Like Alien Life on Earth

https://www.sciencealert.com/bacterium- … ife-europa
Quote:

It lives in complete dark, in groundwater up to 60 degrees Celsius (140 Fahrenheit) - an environment devoid of sunlight, oxygen or organic compounds.

And it has perfectly evolved to derive its energy from the radioactive decay of uranium in the rocks around it - which means it lives off nuclear energy instead of relying on the Sun.

I believe that it has been said that for Photosynthesis, handing visible Photons is something like getting energy by catching bullets.  So, I think it is fairly unlikely that these organisms are doing internal disequilibrium, but they may be using the chemicals resulting from the radiation that radioactive decay produces.  It could also be possible that they would facilitate the process eternally by producing some type of catalyst, but I have not seen any report of it.

The chemicals they might work with could include split H20 and CO2, and I thing maybe Sulphur could be involved in some cases.  In many cases the organisms may breathe reduced solid chemicals in the rocks.

In some cases, I would expect free Oxygen to be produced, as split up H20 and CO2 would allow the creatures to make Hydrocarbon materials for their bodies.  But if they could extract energy by Oxidizing rocks, or dissolved materials in water, that would benefit them more.  Otherwise, they would have to release Oxygen to the environment.

So, I anticipate that it just might be possible that Europa might have Free Oxygen in it's water from that, but it would certainly benefit the organisms if they could breath that Oxygen and eat metals.

Another source of Oxidants for that ocean could be chemicals generated on the surface by radiation and the loss of Hydrogen to space.

If both or either of those sources of Oxidants were possible that animal life might be possible in Europa's oceans.

However, I don't think that the plumes for Enceladus contain notable free Oxygen, so for that case it is not seeming to be true.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/satu … d%20silica.  Quote:

The water jets come from relatively warm fractures in the crust, which scientists informally call the “tiger stripes.” Several gases, including water vapor, carbon dioxide, methane, perhaps a little ammonia and either carbon monoxide or nitrogen gas make up the gaseous envelope of the plume, along with salts and silica. And the density of organic materials in the plume was about 20 times denser than scientists expected.

This does not necessarily eliminate the possibility of free Oxygen from life in other worlds, but it seems that if life is involved in the plumes of Encallado's the life it able to dispose of the Oxygen by Oxidizing Metals and such in the ocean bottom or dissolved in the water.  So, it is a fuel rich environment.  And Oxygen rich environment is not impossible.  But I think that Ocean vents will tend to provide an excess of fuels, where radiation will supply an very close amount of Hydrogen, Carbon Compounds, and Oxygen as it was balanced before H20 and CO2 were split by the radiation.

------

So I see this as very interesting per hard radiation, and including GCR.  Outside of our solar envelope the GCR is supposed to be even greater.

So we might consider Rogue Planeta and Moons in this.  Some may have ice covered oceans.  Some might have atmospheres and ice covered oceans.  Some may have Atmospheres and even open water.  For those with an icy shell, they may have plate tectonics in the shells that would convey chemicals and even radioactive materials into the seas and the sea floors.

And those worlds may be periodically reactivated with radioactive materials: https://phys.org/news/2023-02-radioacti … rnova.html  Quote:

FEBRUARY 20, 2023

Editors' notes
Radioactive isotopes reach Earth by surfing supernova blast waves, scientists discover
by University of Hertfordshire

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467- … 203%2C%204.  Quote:

The contribution of water radiolysis to marine sedimentary life

Similar articles here: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Life+in+s … 10a596a76c

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-26
It was earlier considered that Aluminum 26 came only from Nova type explosions.  However, I have seen mention of particles traveling to drop through a deep gravity well and hit so hard that they could generate hard radiation to transmute elements to other unstable states.
Also strange things apparently happen in the magnetic field of Jupiter, even the creation of small amounts of antimatter.

--------------

So, now you may understand why I might promote the detonation of Hydrogen bombs in isolated ice bodies, such as Korolev Crater.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korolev_(Martian_crater)
Image Quote: 250px-Perspective_view_of_Korolev_crater.jpg

If it is possible to keep the solids in the resulting ice covered pool, then only gasses may escape,  (If you don't allow liquids through the permafrost).

Tritium created is then a risk, but will decay into useful Helium 3.  Carbon may have some radioactive isotopes?  I don't know how dangerous.

So, we might hope to simulate Enceladus: https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/satu … d%20silica  Quote:

The water jets come from relatively warm fractures in the crust, which scientists informally call the “tiger stripes.” Several gases, including water vapor, carbon dioxide, methane, perhaps a little ammonia and either carbon monoxide or nitrogen gas make up the gaseous envelope of the plume, along with salts and silica.

But we may have to find a way to keep the Tritium for it to decay into Helium 3.  But we might hope to generate a spectrum of greenhouse gasses that were not TOO radioactive.

And the warm water generated could certainly be exploited by humans.

Kind of tired now.   Bye.

Done.

This showed up, and is somewhat related and may be very important in itself: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets … 75ea&ei=26  Quote:

This so-called ‘Methane Man’ discovered a bacteria that literally eats air pollution: ‘You’ve got to swing for the fences’
Story by Wes Stenzel • 6h ago

So, indeed fuel greenhouse gasses might be pulled out of the atmosphere by microbes.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-29 14:52:50)


Done.

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