Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

kbd512 · 2023-02-18 22:18:22

If you want thermal energy from waste, then why not burn it?

It's proven to work. They do it in Africa all the time.

What's wrong with doing this the easy way?

Void · 2023-02-19 06:19:29

Actually, they may indeed burn the methane produced at a treatment plant.

But a sewage system is the flow of fluids, and the existing warming of the soils the piping goes through.

So, there exists the possibility of extracting heat, and also the possibility of intentionally adding excess heat for storage into the system.

A Finnish man once told me a story about body parts arguing who was the most important. I don't quite remember it, but in the end the "Rectum", and that is the more polite word, wone. Refusing to do its job, the whole body declined.

Another way to look it is Plumber's butt. Would you rather see that or experience piles of poo in your house or yard?

The things we tend to think ourselves to be above, are very valuable in the service they provide.

Sewage systems typically already existing also have a thermal characteristic which might just increase our productivity resulting from our actions, if we work on it a little bit. I do not expect giant gains, and certainly if not done wisely, things could go wrong.

But even a .1% increase in gain of results from action, may be worth a little bit of time to consider.

I was trained in industrial instrumentation in one small part of my life, so to me it is simply an industrial process to seek to understand and just maybe to find an opportunity for profit/gain.

It might work somewhere with some systems.

For instance, maybe you could get by with pushing the temperature of the sewer system up 5 degrees, in a temperate summer, and suffer no damage to the system. Maybe that heat could be recovered by a heat pump in the winter.

I hesitated to begin this discussion and stopped posting about it at least one or two times. But then I saw an article indicated in that others had given a type of it consideration.

We should thank our rectums for their service. They are a despised but kind organ when they work correctly. If they don't, then the poor person involved suffers.

So, sewage systems should not be despised. Maybe they could do just a little more for us.

But care needs to be applied in order to not damage the primary function they serve us with.

Done

Something about this stinks!

Last edited by Void (2023-02-19 06:32:28)

Terraformer · 2023-02-19 08:01:14

Sewage heat is sometimes recovered for use in cold district heating systems (shared loop for individual heatpumps), among other waste heat sources. If you're using a heat pump to get 45c heat, raising the source temperature from 5c to 25c halves the amount of electricity you need to use. Don't know how cheap collecting it would be compared to e.g. solar thermal though, and if we already have the source at 30c more 30c water isn't going to add anything.

Void · 2023-02-19 08:44:14

We could simplify the problem.

We have a pipe network in soil we have a fluid flowing though it. It is then a heat sink into which heat can be input or output. Output as you have mentioned could be in the use of heat pumps.

What if we dump off-peak energy into that fluid, up to the tolerance of the piping system?

A utility could install such heaters periodically in the piping to do that.

As for adding more fluid, that is questionable. I guess if you did that may enhance the injection of heat into the piping system as it is a fluid that is to be used to inject the heat.

So far in this simplified model, the Utility company is free to inject heat, or extract heat. Again, this would be an off-peak electric power thermal storage function.

Now, if you might put solar panels on houses roofs, such as the Tesla Roof, Extra energy could be pushed into the system, by pushing electricity into the grid, to increase the off peak power, and so the utility could inject the heat into the system.

But each home might be able to push off peak solar energy into a "Thermal Battery", at the site of the home, they also might input heat to that off peak thermal power storage device from the grid, at a favorable cost.

Here might be such a device: https://www.steffes.com/ets/

If I live at a high latitude and it is summer, I might draw heat from that and push it into the grey water emitted intermittently from my home. How I would be compensated for that service, I do not know. Let's just stick to the fact that it would cause a storage of a greater heat in the sewer system.

In the summer, there should be a lot of such excess energy, particularly if I have solar panels on my roof, either electric or thermal ones.

So, then it might be considered that the sewer system can possibly double as a long-term thermal energy storage system.

--------

I am aware that the machinery for this may cost more than it is worth. But then again for certain sewer systems in some locations, it might be worth looking into.

https://polarnightenergy.fi/ (A thermal storage device)
These people choose to store heat in sand during the summer and use it in the cold seasons, so pushing heat into and pulling it out of a sewage system is not a totally stupid thing to consider, in my opinion.

Done.

Since we are mentioning heat pumps, here is a new interesting one, from China: https://techxplore.com/news/2023-02-tea … reuse.html

Quote:

FEBRUARY 17, 2023
Team develops new way to extract thermal energy from waste heat sources and reuse it via pressure control
by Chinese Academy of Sciences

Pressure activated, but it works with solids I believe.

Quote a claim:

The heat released was 11 times greater than the mechanical energy input.

Quote:

As an emerging solution for manipulating heat, barocaloric thermal batteries are expected to play an active role in a variety of applications such as low-temperature industrial waste heat harvesting and reuse, solid-state refrigeration heat transfer systems, smart grids, and residential heat management.

Could it work with a thermally charged sewer system? Well I don't know. Something to ponder, I guess.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-19 09:30:49)

Void · 2023-02-19 09:32:59

Quote:

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,848
Email
For Void ... this topic of yours has certainly taken a surprising turn!
The treatment of human (and other) waste ** is ** important, both for Earth and for Mars, and for everywhere in between.
Combining ** that ** important need with heat storage is an interesting development, for sure!
(th)

Thanks for the considerate encouragement (th).

Done

SpaceNut · 2023-02-19 15:47:59

Seems a rundown of topic subcategories would help to consider dividing up for a better flow of discussion or not if desired by Void.

Today started out with a sunny date and review of where the sun was hitting versus shadow on the best areas that I have to make use of.

The trees along the roads edge do need to go in order to catch the suns rise to the east for additional hours of energy collection.
Cost to have someone come is about 800 plus a tree of which 1 is on my property why the other is the neighbors. I do not believe they will go for it.

There is a electric pole which has ripped the wires down previously so maybe the power company once they come through again will remove it for free?

On a note here is the non human side of the coin to produce energy
How one Mass. farm is transforming waste into energy

Calliban · 2023-02-20 05:43:34

Sabine Hossenfelder discusses geothermal energy.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l6UGpaKnkS0

Using geothermal heat to generate supercritical steam turns out to be quite difficult, because it often means drilling deep and drilling conditions are very harsh. But if the goal is to access heat that can be used to support district heating, then wells need be only a few hundred metres deep. Most countries and regions have exploitable resources and they could be tapped to heat densely populated urban areas.

Void · 2023-02-20 12:58:09

It is good to temper the exuberance with caution and truth.

Maybe I could speculate on something.

First of all, some chances that solar cells will continue to improve: https://newatlas.com/energy/perovskite- … cy-boosted

Also, I am late to the party about Heat Pumps, but here is an interesting article: https://english.worldmagazine.it/301304/

Here is an attempt to describe something that might pay at high latitudes with sunny summers:

At higher latitudes you have more solar hours in the warmer half of the year than the cooler half.

Perhaps in the warm season, the Red Reservoir could be pushed to a high heat. This would be about equivalent to making fuel to burn in the winter.

In warm summer air you could preheat with air and then draw hard on the pink reservoir causing heat conduction from rock to increase.

Then you might push a high heat into the Red Reservoir, perhaps a high enough heat to generate electricity from it.

Size would then determine if it would be year around power.

I notice that the Heat Pumps can draw on some very cold temperatures. That is impressive, but they are doing it with much less sunlight and much less heat in the air.

And if you did use solar cells, you could use the heat pump to draw hot air off of the solar panels perhaps increasing the efficiency of them.

I will grant that I don't know if a heat pump can output a high enough temperature to the Red Reservoir.

Obviously, this could be used to heat, but I am hoping that somehow it can reach into electric production from the Red Reservoir as if it were a thermal battery.

I would not mind some feedback.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-20 13:24:28)

Void · 2023-02-20 14:47:09

Continuing from post #183, can we consider the inclusion of a "Liquid Air Battery"?

https://earthbuddies.net/liquid-air-bat … 0it%20work.

Considering North America and Brittan, then how well might such configurations work?

The UK: https://earthbuddies.net/liquid-air-bat … 0it%20work.
Image Quote: You seem to have a Penguin Rivera in your southern parts.

But the point is that you are situated as far north as parts of Canada, so you must have a lot of summer light, (Through Clouds?).

My state in the north of the 48, has about the same summer day plan as southern France. But we are almost as cold as southern Alberta.

So, as squirrels may store food for the winter, we might store summer heat for the winter.

Big reveal: https://shrinkthatfootprint.com/average … esota-usa/

We may not be too.....far from wind power in the winter, and we are rather cold in the winter, so maybe a liquid air battery. UK will have wind power as well, not as cold, but still liquid air battery?

Well, I am curious how an Eavor system would work with liquid air linked to it. We could store some summer heat, and then in the winter have presumed efficiency using wind power to generate liquid air.

So, we have some degree of commonality with you in this. We have similar latitude. We are more continental than you so might try to exploit the seasonal extremes. You also may try similar. We both also have the option to stuff heat into rock heat exchanger geothermal devices.

That does lead to a rather interesting notion. Could places that have sufficient winter energy pipe liquid air south? Probably a reach, but an interesting question.

So, maybe the sunbelt of the USA does not have a monopoly on energy favors. But of course they are blessed.

So, here is some data for the USA which of course is in the Mid-North America: https://shrinkthatfootprint.com/average … 20climates.
You can see this table inside of the above link:

What Is The Average Solar Panel Output Per Month?
We also estimated the numbers for the average solar radiation per month and the average solar panel output per month. This is simply the per day numbers weighted by the number of days in the month.
Average solar radiation per month and solar panel output per month – United States
Month Solar radiation per month Solar panel output per month* 20 solar panel output per month
January 100.02 kWh/m² 24.00 kWh 480.09 kWh
February 112.92 kWh/m² 27.10 kWh 542.04 kWh
March 154.46 kWh/m² 37.07 kWh 741.41 kWh
April 174.70 kWh/m² 41.93 kWh 838.57 kWh
May 192.35 kWh/m² 46.16 kWh 923.27 kWh
June 196.92 kWh/m² 47.26 kWh 945.22 kWh
July 204.58 kWh/m² 49.10 kWh 981.99 kWh
August 192.91 kWh/m² 46.30 kWh 925.98 kWh
September 168.41 kWh/m² 40.42 kWh 808.36 kWh
October 139.07 kWh/m² 33.38 kWh 667.52 kWh
November 106.04 kWh/m² 25.45 kWh 508.98 kWh
December 89.04 kWh/m² 21.37 kWh 427.41 kWh
We assume solar energy conversation is 15% efficient and a solar panel is standard 1.6 m²
Average Solar Radiation Per Year For The United States
The average solar radiation per year is 1831.42 kWh/m². There’s no need to go by month for the average solar production per year. The value is found by adding up the estimated production per month over all months.
Average Solar Production In 50 States
Click on any state below to get the state’s local average solar production over all 12 months and the amount of electricity expected from one or more solar panels. Each state receives a different amount of sunlight over the course of the year.

Alabama Hawaii Massachusetts New Mexico South Dakota
Alaska Idaho Michigan New York Tennessee
Arizona Illinois Minnesota North Carolina Texas
Arkansas Indiana Mississippi North Dakota Utah
California Iowa Missouri Ohio Vermont
Colorado Kansas Montana Oklahoma Virginia
Connecticut Kentucky Nebraska Oregon Washington
Delaware Louisiana Nevada Pennsylvania West Virginia
Florida Maine New Hampshire Rhode Island Wisconsin
Georgia Maryland New Jersey South Carolina Wyoming
Average Solar Production In Each State
Assumptions For Average Solar Panel Output Per Year
The average solar panel output per year is 439.54 kWh. There’s no need to go by month for the average solar production per year. The value is found by adding up the estimated production per month over all month

https://shrinkthatfootprint.com/average … esota-usa/
So July is "208.63 kWh/m²".
And December is "71.92 kWh/m²".

And of course our summers can be hot, our winters can be cold.

So, if I am going to run a heat pump, July is the time to get some heat, which I might even hope to suck our of solar panels or even buildings.

Wind power is not too far away, so we might be facilitated for a liquid air battery in the winter.

How to couple a Liquid Air Battery with an Eavor geothermal?

Well, I think it has potential.

I don't know it it would be wise to run liquid air through the Eavor tubes, but you could cool it's heat exchanger, and possibly run two turbine systems. One that Eavor would already use with some hydrocarbon liquids, and then one that boils liquid air.

Done.

We still have the possible option of also storing heat into a "Ground Heat Exchanger", such as a sewage system. This might involve flowing electric currents though the sewage system, or just using heliostats to heat fluids to put into the system.

Or you could do the same with a old oil well perhaps.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-20 15:22:12)

SpaceNut · 2023-02-20 19:35:21

Remember that each site location is affected by the levels of how cloudy your location is usually. My research for NH was for a month's less than 100% each week and that if you were looking for the total sum of the weeks to be 400% you would be disappointed to know you would only see 200% for the solar energy that you might receive.

Yes, a mixed collection of energy sources that are seasonal means planning to hold that total collection with some doubt as to if it's going to be enough for later is part of the issue.

Since each type of media used for a working fluid has limits on the volume we collect for how and in total the quantity will be of that energy level.

Of course, the other variable is how well insulated the place is in which we want to use that energy later as I am finding with my situation of no heating system other than an electric dryer to provide in a poorly out of condition home.

I have learned that the level of heat is only one of the facts for use later as well since the retain the higher level means a different system such as sand or sodium tanks.

Today I did look again at the site location for the vertical solar concentrating system and while I get 6 hours of sun sweep total for each of the 3 locations that run parallel to the roads edge, they are only going to have a reflective surface for just a 10ft diameter at best. I also must overcome the shape desired to make them aesthetic in appearance as well as for the over height of the simulated Lighthouse shape that would enclose the reflector. The approximate aperture of the reflector is just 135' of the totals for its opening with only a need to rotate just 90' of it. Over that period of receiving light, I will need to have the collector tilt in order to increase the tracked energy level to its max no matter how high I make the tower assembly.

As a lawn ornament hiding the real reason for it possibly 10Ft tall would keep others at bay for causing me to require permits to build but any taller would need to gather approvals from the town for sure. Of course, the trees around the line of sight would also improve the system as well.

I am also looking at making use of trash plus wood to allow for additional heating for the storage as well. Now if I can generate steam then we can look at a turbine to make electrical as well.

Hot water fro wood

https://youtu.be/NmNtwsJIpqo

Void · 2023-02-21 21:05:39

I really wish we could "Pull a Rabit" out of a hat for your situation.

But in the end if the energy is not available to your location the best, we might hope to do is find better energy sources and hope that a utility would then be able to offer energy to us at a lower rate.

So, I return to this, and hope that adding ice harvesting might also work.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 94#p206394

Quote:

Here is an attempt to describe something that might pay at high latitudes with sunny summers:

Query: "Ice Harvesting"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Ice+Harve … da529c2d98

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_cutting

Ice typically freezes on a body of water and then insulates it so that the rate of additional freezing slows down.

But what if you had ice chomping robots to make slush, as a slurry?

Is there a chance to collect ice in a mine pit or specially constructed barn?

Could it be assistive in making liquid air?

How they stored it in summer: https://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0311/p18 … %20markets.
Quote:

Farmers stored blocks of ice in special ice houses made of wood and insulated with hay and sawdust. The ice was used during the warm months to cool milk and cream so that it wouldn't spoil on its way to city markets.

So, now in the north, you might chop ice from lakes make it into a slurry, and pipe it into a storage location.

Else, you might have a heat pump that pulls the heat out and makes ice for that purpose.

So, then link that with an Eavor geothermal well.

Tie that together with wind and solar, maybe other, and make the ice at convenience, and then use the ice to make liquid air even in the summer.

Use the liquid air to run a turbine by cooling an Eavor process, and the Eavor process can as well run a turbine also.

Guaranteed? No. But you have to try if you want to get to something new.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-22 15:37:19)

Calliban · 2023-02-21 22:48:14

Liquid air has a potential energy 194kWh per cubic metre. If you could find a large pit or abandoned quarry, perhaps it could be lined with an impermeable membrane? A roof would be needed to prevent rain water ingress. Any water in the surrounding rock would tend to freeze, which would ultimately form an impermeable permafrost layer.

A cubic pit 100m aside, would contain 1 million cubic metres of liquid air. That is enough to store 194,000MWh. That is enough stored energy to power the UK for about 1 week, or the US for just under a day. Liquid air would seem to offer a potential affordable long-term energy storage option. We could store months of electrical energy in covered pits containing liquefied air. As the air is stored as liquid at atmospheric pressure, the container needs to withstand hydrostatic forces, but need not be a pressure vessel. Some kind of underground storage tank, lined with concrete and a ductile inner liner, would appear to provide a cost optimum solution.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-02-21 22:52:52)

kbd512 · 2023-02-22 04:19:19

Calliban,

The US consumed 3,930TWh of electricity in 2021, or 10.767TWh per day, on average.

194,000MWh = 194,000,000,000Wh

1TWh = 1,000,000,000,000Wh

10,767,000,000,000 / 194,000,000,000 = 55.5

We'd need at least 56 of those 100m^3 LAES to deliver 24 hours of electricity to America.

tahanson43206 · 2023-02-22 07:44:42

For Calliban re #187, with a nod to kbd512 for #188

A storage container for liquid air would need a corresponding container for molten salt (or equivalent) heat storage, to complete the storage system.

The work done by renewable resources to cool the air and to heat the salt can be intermittent, and the output can be adjusted to meet demand by flowing heat from the salt container to the liquid air container to feed power to machinery.

It seems to me that this concept has been explored in the forum previously.

It would be good/helpful if the concept for energy storage in this form could be described in a single compact post which could then be made easy to find.

It seems to me that the energy storage system would be (could be) implemented in smaller increments than the huge systems described in the two posts 187 and 188. Is there any way to estimate today system cost compared to competitive ideas such as flow batteries, at a smaller scale?

While 56 storage/retrieval systems might supply the entire US, it may be commercially feasible to build smaller systems as opportunity occurs.

If I understand the discussion correctly (never guaranteed of course) it would ** seem ** as though the materials needed to implement one of these systems might be more available than some of the competing concepts.

I'm hoping one or both of you might be willing to describe the complete system in more detail, as might be appropriate for an investor group to consider for an actual project.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-02-22 13:42:53

For Terraformer ... noted your posts in other topics, so decided to ask about your outreach to the local council person...

Is it permissible for you to make a follow up telephone inquiry, if your email is ignored?

(th)

Void · 2023-02-22 14:29:19

Calliban and kbd512, I like your materials.

(th) you are free to extract to put into your archives. We are keeping multiple components isolated in conversation would be a very big impediment to finding a successful combination of assets, which I hope can be linked together.

And here I have the attention of Calliban and kbd512, which can be very useful.

The type of reservoir of large size that could store large amounts of liquid air probably goes beyond the scope of existing craft, so it needs experiments and innovations.

And by the way I am going to hope to conceive of a network of energy components, which together will be better than the sum of parts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy
Quote:

Synergy is an interaction or cooperation giving rise to a whole that is greater than the simple sum of its parts. The term synergy comes from the Attic Greek word συνεργία synergia[1] from synergos, συνεργός, meaning "working together".

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-22 14:33:27)

Void · 2023-02-22 14:35:28

I may back up and try to start with a synergy of:
1) Norwegian Heat Pump.
2) Reservoir of water.
3) Liquid Air Battery.

https://ammonia21.com/norwegian-researc … heat-pump/
Quote:

Researchers from Sintef Energy Research in Norway, the Norwegian University of Science & Technology (NTNU), and industrial partner ToCircle, have developed a new high-temperature water-based heat pump suitable for many industrial processes, and capable of producing temperatures of up to 180°C (356°F).
Sintef is calling this the “world’s hottest heat pump” and the first to reach temperatures of up to 180°C.
The new heat pump is “perfect” for the (roughly) 20% of Europe’s industries that require temperatures between 100°C (212°F) and 180°C, according to Sintef. Suitable industries would include “foodstuffs, fisheries and aquaculture, paper, oil and gas and metallurgy sectors,” Sintef said on its website.
The technology is not yet commercially ready, but is available for prototype and proof-of- concept projects, according to Michael Bantle, Senior Research Scientist at Sintef.
The new heat pump is designed to use water as the refrigerant. “However, you can mix in some ammonia as well so you have a refrigerant mixture to match temperature glides in the heat sink and heat source,” Bantle explained. “However, at 180°C the amount of ammonia is marginal.”
The compressor in the heat pump — built by Norwegian manufacturer ToCircle — uses steam technology in a rotary vane machine. “The vane machine is a type of compressor equipped with vanes that rotates such that it changes the compressor volume with each revolution,” Bantle explained. “The secret behind Tocircle’s compressor is that all the moving parts in contact with the work medium are lubricated using water.”
Using injected liquid water together with with steam compression promotes lubrication and also reduces the thermal stress on the system. The liquid water is used to de-superheat the steam during compression. Without the injected water there is a danger of overheating the compressor.
“All these factors combined in a single machine offer a very promising platform for the development of a high-temperature heat pump with pure water as its work medium, and not least because many industrial processes already use steam as an energy carrier in the first place,” Bantle said.
Cutting energy consumption
In addition to being able to produce very high temperatures, the researchers expect the new technology to reduce energy consumption by 40 to 70% by using the low-temperature waste heat that is readily available in many industrial manufacturing processes.
“This means that we no longer have to waste any heat, but can keep the heat we generate all to ourselves,” Bantle said. “This in turn will drastically reduce our greenhouse gas emissions because it will be possible to retain the surplus heat generated by the industrial process, feed it into the heat pump, and so increase the process temperature.”
“Investment in a heat pump costs money, but this technology will guarantee big savings that will enable us to recover our investment costs relatively quickly,” Bantle added.
The heat pump is a further development of a technology originally developed for TINE, a Norwegian dairy located in the western city of Bergen. The original technology produces temperatures around 100°C and enabled TINE to become the world’s first zero-emission dairy, according to Sintef. The series of heat pumps used by TINE include both ammonia-water and propane-butane units.
“In order to achieve temperatures of up to 180 degrees, we had to identify a refrigeration agent with somewhat different thermal properties, and we finally ended up with the most natural of them all – water,” said Bantle.
“All these factors combined in a single machine offer a very promising platform for the development of a high-temperature heat pump with pure water as its work medium, and not least because many industrial processes already use steam as an energy carrier in the first place,”
Michael Bantle, Sintef.

So, if they get the above up to speed, then heat from a Liquid Air Battery could be dumped into a reservoir of water and this heat pump could use it as low temperature waste heat.

We may connect a Lake to the reservoir, and may also include a sewage system as a low grade heat storage system.

Lets pick two states to consider for this. North Dakota, and Texas. (North Dakota may be similar to the south prairie provinces in Canada)

That is a stretch of the interior of the continent, that has some solar of value and a lot of wind.
Here is the solar resources: https://www.nrel.gov/gis/solar-resource-maps.html
Quote Febuary: https://www.nrel.gov/gis/assets/images/ … ale-01.jpg
Quote August: https://www.nrel.gov/gis/assets/images/ … ale-01.jpg

Wind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_powe … ted_States
Something for coastal people as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_powe … States.jpg
https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/un … -potential
Wind%20Vision%20v7-01.jpeg?itok=_CwaePKL

So far we have not drilled heat sinks/reservoirs.

We could dump excess heat from the heat pump into the sewage thermal storage system. It could be retrieved by the heat pump as well.

Our lake in association with the linking reservoir can store cold as ice and water. In the cold of winter, it might be possible to enhance the buildup of ice on the lake.

Our Liquid Air Battery might be constructed like a water reservoir but with a roof over it.
-An insulated bottom could be used, and the roof could be insulated as well.

Air boil off could be used as a coolant in the warm months, even routed into houses.

An Earthen dam turned to permafrost may work OK to create the reservoir of liquid air.
Liquid air is only a little heavier than water and will freeze water on contact, so it should be possible to make and maintain impoundments for it.

So, the question is, if the heat pump can make temperatures of 180 degrees C stored in thermal reservoirs, and we can also have liquid air, can there be sufficient thermal span to have a good electric generation system?

I am starting to feel good about it.

Now a review of Eavor in the next post.

To continue in next post.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-22 15:14:56)

Void · 2023-02-22 15:18:16

https://www.eavor.com/

They may or may not reach all of their goals, but they can certainly create a useful heat sink underground.

I think it would be possible to have one and run electric currents though its fluids to store very hot temperatures, and not that far down.

--------------------------------------------

I will try this again:

Quote:

Here is an attempt to describe something that might pay at high latitudes with sunny summers:

So, if the Norwegian heat pump is the highest temperature, then I guess the red reservoir cannot be more than 180 degrees C.

But the two reservoirs don't need deep drilling to be created.

I would hope for a heat pump that could use 180 degrees C water and push the heat up even more.

As you can see, a collection of such devices would be intended to flatten our the peaks and valleys of energy availability.

As I have said, I think that heating with electric currents would not be out of the question.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule_heating
I am inclined to pass a current though the liquid filled tubes.

I guess I will let it rest now for a bit.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-22 15:44:49)

SpaceNut · 2023-02-22 19:44:30

Cheap energy is available to the power companies through the net metering and yet the prices from the electric companies still continue upward.

The total energy only matters when we know how many are being supplied and at what kwhr rates that all of them are utilizing.
Heat pumps can save energy in both direction of creation and use but the unit puts out 1 of those into the home when its needed. The cooling of the home in the summer would save heat and then for winter it would draw heat from the store and move it to where it is cold.

Current heat pumps only have the 1 storage when in use such that when you design for a 2 separate storage system then it's a differential system rather than a single ended system which is what is currently being built.

The second version of a 2-storage tank is that the heat pump is active only in 1 direct while the other is passive such as its just being pumped and creates a radiator effect with the fan of cooling via the cold tank stores. For the extra cooling one turns on the heat pump to create home cooling while storing the heat in its tank which is similar to an AC unit, but we are dumping the heat which is normally radiated into air we move it to storage instead.

Of course, to provide heat we would do just the opposite drawing the heat from its stored tank passively to blow thrown a radiator and if more heat is required, we would turn the heat pump on for creating heat and store the cold for later.

Void · 2023-02-23 10:59:53

I am very encouraged by what I have learned from this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryogenic_energy_storage

Quote:

Efficiency
In isolation the process is only 25% efficient, but this is increased to around 50% when used with a low-grade cold store, such as a large gravel bed, to capture the cold generated by evaporating the cryogen. The cold is re-used during the next refrigeration cycle.[3]
Efficiency is further increased when used in conjunction with a power plant or other source of low-grade heat that would otherwise be lost to the atmosphere. Highview Power claims an AC to AC round-trip efficiency of 70%, by using an otherwise waste heat source at 115 °C.[4] The IMechE (Institution of Mechanical Engineers) agrees that these estimates for a commercial-scale plant are realistic.[5] However this number was not checked or confirmed by independent professional institutions.

So, I would think as has been said by others a 70% efficiency for the liquid air system, subpart might be attainable when included into a geothermal or geo storage system.

Quote:

Advantages
The system is based on proven technology, used safely in many industrial processes, and does not require any particularly rare elements or expensive components to manufacture. Dr Tim Fox, the head of Energy at the IMechE says "It uses standard industrial components - which reduces commercial risk; it will last for decades and it can be fixed with a spanner."[6]

Quote:

Applications
Economics
The technology is only economic where there is large variation in the wholesale price of electricity over time. Typically this will be where it is difficult to vary generation in response to changing demand. The technology thus complements growing energy sources like wind and solar, and allows a greater penetration of such renewables into the energy mix. It is less useful where electricity is mostly provided by dispatchable generation, like coal or gas-fired thermal plants, or hydro-electricity.
Cryogenic plants can also provide grid services, including grid balancing, voltage support, frequency response and synchronous inertia.[7]

This article is also good: https://energystorage.org/why-energy-st … y-storage/

I was surprised that they use a gravel bed to store and recover some of the cold or heat. In the case of liquid air some of the cold is stored this way.

I would imagine that Liquid Air Storage might be somewhat cheaper in the winter, at higher latitudes. The possibility of damming up a ravine, and putting a roof over it to store liquid air in the winter, seems a bit of a reach, but never say never.

If you did one thing that might be of interest would be using the boiloff and cold passing into the roof, to condense water from the atmosphere in the warmer months. That also is a bit futuristic, but water has a value also.

A liquid air tank being of a dammed ravine, I would expect that it might keep itself sealed by way of permafrost of water ice. But you might line the reservoir with something. I suppose you would want some insulation as well, but the permafrost itself should have some insulating characteristics.

Geothermal is said to be very synergistic with solar and wind, well adding a liquid air system may also be assistive, as you would be able to generate liquid air when the electric load was low.

I think I will park it there.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-23 11:35:10)

Terraformer · 2023-02-23 12:07:51

Ooh. Something being built. In England. In *Northern* England. I like it.

Wait, how did we manage to lure a company over here from the US? Usually they go the other way.

Do economies of scale mandate 100MW+ facilities, or could this be integrated closer to the end user? It would be neat to have some kind of local energy company that buys cheap power and sells it to the town when it's needed, connected directly to the local grid to even out demand on the national transmission infrastructure. *mentally makes note of another thing for getting my town off the gaseus gold*

Void · 2023-02-23 14:58:31

I can understand your sentiments Terraformer. I am not sure what the limits of scale are.

I am getting interested in a version for desert places. On a large scale. It is true that desert nights are cool, even cold.

I suppose North Dakota and the Canadian parries might qualify as semi-arid, so perhaps it could be applied there.

A very large reservoir of liquid air, and you could do pumped Hydro to store energy from the day into the night as per solar, and perhaps wind.

There are large water reservoirs there so it might be done.

And if the roof was double you could push chilled air through it to hope to condense water, which would run off of the roof.

I suppose something of this type might be done in Namibia, and of course other places.

Throw in geothermal or geo storage of some type for heat then.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-02-23 15:04:55)

Terraformer · 2023-02-28 13:34:51

Analysis for the economics of heat pump vs gas in Massachussets (2021).

They predict that air source heat pumps will become cheaper than gas at some point in the second half of this decade. But the graph also shows ground source as being significantly cheaper than gas already, *and shared networks for ground source significantly cheaper than that*.

And for those of us in Britain, this was the economics back in 2021, before gas became massively more expensive...

Shared networks definitely seem to be the way to go. Properly built hopefully, so we can put plenty of heat in when we have it to really get those CoPs up to 10, or 15.

tahanson43206 · 2023-02-28 14:15:45

For Terraformer re #198

Recently you reported a surprising response from an official in your community.

Then SpaceNut raised the specter of this being a robot response.

I think it is unlikely that a community as old as (I imagine) yours must be would have anything as modern as a robot answering emails, but I suppose it is possible.

Please follow up to be sure that was a message from a real person. While you're at it, you might have an opportunity to learn if there are any openings for citizen advisors in this decision making process.

There may be a small compensation for service as an advisor to the community. While volunteer service is generally unpaid here, I understand that occasionally individuals drawn into advisory positions are given modest compensation.

(th)

Calliban · 2023-02-28 14:25:10

Terraformer wrote:

Analysis for the economics of heat pump vs gas in Massachussets (2021).
They predict that air source heat pumps will become cheaper than gas at some point in the second half of this decade. But the graph also shows ground source as being significantly cheaper than gas already, *and shared networks for ground source significantly cheaper than that*.
And for those of us in Britain, this was the economics back in 2021, before gas became massively more expensive...
Shared networks definitely seem to be the way to go. Properly built hopefully, so we can put plenty of heat in when we have it to really get those CoPs up to 10, or 15.

Britain does have some advantages. Wind is strong enough to provide a source of power if no other is available. We have a long standing nuclear industry and enough nuclear engineers to develop new reactor designs. Enough plutonium and depleted uranium to power our country for centuries. Geographically, nowhere is very far from the coast. Freight can be shipped around very cheaply by water. The rail network can get you to most places. It could transport a large part of our freight if we needed to to press it into that use. Our cities are high population density. That makes them suitable for district heat networks. If cars disappeared tomorrow, our urban areas are compact enough to be walkable, or at least cyclable. Cars make this option dangerous. Car culture has been a net negative for quality of life in Britain. Our towns and cities are mostly crappy places to live. But in a world with less fossil fuels we could get by better than most countries. Without fossil fuels the US would be screwed. But the UK could get by reasonably on wind power alone.

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