Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Void · 2023-01-29 04:28:51

I am not sure, I anticipate that much higher temperatures could be used. I think that the effort was more as experimental, and also conversion of non-verbal thinking to verbal, often is clumsy at best.

It is a good indicator though.

As it turns out we have a (th) who has a banking background, I believe. So, I see the possibility of a "Thermal Bank". Citizens for instance might have solar or even small wind production mechanisms and could sell their peak electricity to such a bank. The bank must make a profit, so what dispersed entities get paid for power they deposit to the bank, it would be a lower price than the energy they might buy back in a time of need to the dispersed entities. (th) might have special insights as to how such a thing could operate.

Eavor, which is a geothermal company, demonstrates that a temperature of a few hundred degrees might be enough to be able to generate electric power. Eavors "Tubes/Wells" are different from the wells that would be repurposed in the article mentioned.

In the case of a wind power abundance, something similar is possible, but probably much of that wind power would be large scale corporate activities, that might suit your country.

So many new things seem to be on the threshold of being functional and economic. My fear is that some will be discarded, if binary choice governs a survival of the fittest. This would be like having 10 children, and killing 7 of them as they had, so far not shined as well as the other three. We need to avoid the Knuckle Dragging Binary Test method to determine the continuation of research. If possible.

https://www.eavor.com/

They say the core is as hot as the sun. Is it sensible to think of the Earth's core as compressed Plasma? Perhaps with it's heat there is plasma with other phases of water. Not sure.

One way to heat wells to a very high temperature would be to flow electricity directly though it. Simple perhaps, but of course might not be safe in many cases.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-01-29 04:43:06)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-29 10:10:23

Part of the issue for a free thermal bank is one problem as someone that owns the bank will want to make as much money out of the system as possible. This is that whole communism thing that some believe government should be doing for the people to allow for a happier existence of course this is politics so I will end there.

So, lets scale the community down to a homestead or at most 2 with such a storage and available for use system. Which comes back to home size and insulative lose values are going to be all over the map for need. Not all sites where you reside will or can collect energy from the sun as I am finding out to try and solve this problem.

Next is the cost of the system and regulations of property use that one might need to acknowledge along the way to self-energy for use. I may be on the side that faces towards the southwest slope of the ridge but due to trees not on my property I am limited to what and where I can collect with any system to convert the sun to energy captured either ready for use directly or for later depending on the collection means.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-29 11:06:39

For SpaceNut re #102

Reminder ... this is the Geothermal topic, not the Solar Energy topic.

For all ... here is a report of successful drilling in New Mexico... the company has not (apparently) reached commercial break even, but the indicators are positive.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/theres-almos … 00932.html

Report of successful geothermal drilling in New Mexico

"We have over 30 patents covering a lot of technology components, including proprietary software, hardware and system design," Ethier said.

Albuquerque Journal, N.M.
There's almost unlimited clean, geothermal energy under our feet. New tech could help unleash that potential in New Mexico.
Kevin Robinson-Avila, Albuquerque Journal, N.M.
Sat, January 28, 2023 at 11:01 PM EST
Jan. 28—Canadian company Eavor Inc. drilled an 18,000-foot well bore this past fall in southwest New Mexico to prove it could hammer its way through deep-underground, hard-granite rock to reach previously untapped geothermal energy.
Eavor's well now stands as the deepest hole ever drilled in New Mexico, successfully demonstrating that the company's new technology can potentially crack open access to vast subsurface hot-rock formations that offer massive amounts of clean, renewable energy.
Eavor's success is just the latest achievement in what could soon become a global renaissance in geothermal development that's got both industry experts and public officials hyped about the potential for unleashing a virtually unlimited source of clean energy for electric generation, and for heating and cooling of homes and buildings.
"We have massive geothermal resources sitting below our feet, but it's been elusive to tap into the deep subsurface areas we need to reach to extract that energy economically and use it," Eavor Vice President of Business Development Neil Ethier told the Journal. "... Our drilling project in southwest New Mexico showed that our technology can unlock that geothermal potential, and it's now ready for commercial development."
In fact, the company is preparing to break ground in Nevada on its first 20-megawatt geothermal power plant in the U.S. using its new technology to exploit deep hot-rock formations. The project will supply power to local utility NV Energy, pending approval by state regulators in Nevada.
That project could be the first of many new power plants Eavor expects to build in western states, where geothermal energy is more readily accessible at levels closer to the surface than in other places. Eventually, that could include New Mexico as well, which has the sixth-highest geothermal potential in the nation, according to the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in Colorado.
"New Mexico's geothermal resource is very good," Ethier said. "It's a wonderful opportunity for New Mexico to develop clean, firm, baseload electricity that employs New Mexicans."
Eavor is one of many companies now aggressively pursuing geothermal development with modern drilling technologies that allow them to tap into the deep underground rock formations that eluded the industry in years past.
Texas-based Fervo Technologies, for example, has also signed new power purchase agreements in western states to build modern geothermal power plants, including three separate projects with utilities in California for a combined total of nearly 100 MW of generation. And, as that company perfects its drilling techniques — and as economies of scale kick in to lower costs — Fervo expects to target a lot more places for geothermal development, including New Mexico, said Fervo Senior Associate for Policy and Regulatory Affairs Laura Singer.
"We definitely see New Mexico as an opportunity for the future once we get our drilling costs lower and our techniques fully hammered out," Singer told the Journal.
State legislation
Both Eavor and Fervo met with a geothermal working group last year that state Sen. Gerald Ortiz y Pino, D-Albuquerque, formed to explore local development potential, paving the way for newly proposed legislation in this year's session to promote the industry.
Ortiz y Pino has filed the Geothermal Resources Development Act, Senate Bill 8, to provide $25 million in state money for grants and loans for research and development of geothermal energy projects around New Mexico. And he filed a second bill, SB-173, to offer up to $10 million annually in tax breaks for new geothermal projects.
The legislation could inspire more investment in both geothermal electric generation, and use of geothermal energy to heat and cool homes and buildings.
Heating-and-cooling technology is well developed. But it requires more education and promotional incentives to encourage broad market adoption and deployment.
In contrast, geothermal electric generation based on today's emerging technologies that target deep hot-rock formations is still evolving. But it's nearing the commercial break-out point.
"We're on the cusp of it," Ortiz y Pino told the Journal. "Eavor just drilled a hole nearly 19,000 feet deep to show it can do this. That opens the door to a lot more potential development as other energy companies jump in."
Both of Ortiz y Pino's bills have bipartisan support, with two Republican senators co-sponsoring them. And more bipartisan backing is likely, Ortiz y Pino said.
That's because, apart from offering clean "baseload" energy that can operate 24/7 all year long, today's emerging technology could also create direct employment opportunities for workers in the oil and gas industry as the state diversifies away from fossil fuels.
Drilling for heat, not hydrocarbons
Indeed, it's the modern drilling technologies developed by the oil and gas industry that are opening the gateway to deep underground geothermal energy, making the drilling rigs and skilled workforce that manage today's oil and gas operations essential for companies like Eavor and Fervo to bust through hard, subsurface granite to reach hot-rock formations.
"We're piggybacking off technology advancements in oil and gas drilling," Ethier said. "But instead of drilling for hydrocarbons, we're drilling for heat. Fifteen years ago we couldn't do this."
Modern hydraulic fracturing methods that include hardened drill bits to crack open tough shale beds — plus advanced seismic sensor technology and data analysis to pinpoint and accurately target underground hydrocarbon deposits — all contributed to the shale gas revolution, allowing the industry to exploit previously untapped oil-and-gas reservoirs.
More recently, horizontal drilling technology has pushed oil and gas operations into unprecedented levels of development, permitting operators to penetrate laterally into shale beds stretching in all directions to reach more pockets of hydrocarbons.
Now, those same drilling techniques — combined with further technology development by the geothermal companies themselves — is creating a paradigm shift that, for the first time, lets developers dig far below the shallow hot water aquifers that the geothermal industry has traditionally targeted to instead bore deeper down into hot-rock formations.
That capability opens up access to far more geothermal energy in many more places, because developers are no longer limited to exploring and developing around volcanos and fault lines where natural subsurface fracturing has created pools of relatively shallow, underground reservoirs. Such conditions are relatively rare and are concentrated in certain places, such as the western U.S.
"The industry has been historically limited to conventional wet, steamy reservoirs where developers look for the steam and natural fault lines," Singer said. "We don't need steam now. We look instead for hot rock at reasonable depths. Subsurface heat exists everywhere — it's just a matter of how deep it is."
Nearly 20 years ago, extensive research showed that intense subsurface heat is ubiquitous and basically inexhaustible nearly everywhere below the Earth's crust, with heat level depending on depth, said Shari Kelly, a senior geophysicist and field geologist with the state Bureau of Geology and Mineral Resources.
"We came to realize that no matter where you are in the U.S. — even if it's Connecticut — if you drill deep enough you can reach temperatures that are usable for heat and electricity," Kelly told the Journal. "... That really shifted the perspective on geothermal development."
The challenge, however, has been lack of adequate drilling technology that could slice through hard rock to reach the necessary depths while also withstanding extreme subsurface temperatures that can shut down drilling equipment.
"Today's drilling technology allows developers to reach those deep depths," Kelly said. "It's a game changer."
Advancing the technology
Companies like Fervo and Eavor are now building on oil and gas drilling technology to develop techniques and methods specifically geared toward deep geothermal development.
Fervo, for example, has developed advanced data analytics using down-hole fiber optics to gather and analyze real-time data on flow, temperature and performance of geothermal resources, Singer said. That provides much greater insight into subsurface behavior, allowing the company to precisely identify where the best resources exist and optimize well performance.
Once the hole is drilled and fracked, the company pumps cold water down into the well bore, where it's heated to between 350 and 400 degrees Fahrenheit and then brought back to the surface to create steam to run a turbine generator.
Conventional wells that tap into existing hot water aquifers usually don't penetrate below 3,000 feet down, and those wells generally only produce between 200- and 300-degree heat. In contrast, Fervo is targeting rock formations at 8,000-10,000 feet down, providing much greater heat for more efficient and abundant generating capacity.
"Some companies are looking to drill extremely deep into extremely hot rock," Singer said. "We're not. We're targeting more moderate depths that allow us to use existing oil and gas drill bits and equipment."
Eavor, meanwhile, has created new technology to drill far deeper wells of up to 23,000 feet or more, Ethier said. That requires extreme temperature-resistant equipment with reinforced drill bits to break through hard granite rock.
To do that, it's created proprietary insulated drill pipes and partnered with industry vendors to design new drill bits. It's also developed advanced down-well control technology to precisely place liquid-filled pipes through two well bores that pump water down for heating at the geothermal resource and then bring it back up again.
And the entire process is contained in a novel, closed-loop system where the water being heated never leaves the underground or surface pipes. Rather, it absorbs heat from the hot-rock bed like a radiator, using horizontal drilling to place piping offshoots directly next to the geothermal resource, which then heats up the water inside the tubes before it's brought back to the surface.
"We have over 30 patents covering a lot of technology components, including proprietary software, hardware and system design," Ethier said.
Eavor directly tested most of its technology in the New Mexico Bootheel at a drill site located next to the Lightning Dock geothermal power plant near Lordsburg. That's the only conventional geothermal facility currently operating in the state.
"We met all our technology milestones," Ethier said.
Future employment opportunities
That test operation also demonstrated lucrative future employment potential for oil and gas industry workers. Two conventional drilling rigs were used on the project, which lasted from August to December last year.
"We had more than 50 people employed at the rig site throughout construction," Ethier said. "And that doesn't include local services we used for fuel and water delivery, or for sewage and garbage disposal. It was also a boon for local hotels and restaurants in the area."
As industry development gains momentum and companies begin drilling deeper wells for power plants, and for heating and cooling applications, a lot more employment opportunities could emerge for skilled oil and gas drilling crews, engineers and seasoned industry professionals.
In fact, most companies now pursuing modern geothermal development are largely run by former oil and gas executives and staffed by industry workers. Helmerich & Payne Inc., for example — an oil and gas drilling rig operator — is an investor in Eavor.
Global drilling company Baker Hughes also formed a partnership with two industry giants, Continental Resources and Chesapeake Energy, to test whether they can profitably turn spent natural gas wells into geothermal facilities, according to Politico. And Chevron New Energies, a subsidiary of Chevron Corp., is partnering with Sweden's Baseload Capital to develop new geothermal technologies, starting with a new project in Weepah Hills mountains in Nevada.
"We're not taking away from the oil and gas industry, but adding stability to it," Ethier said. "This can provide a just transition for energy diversification that offers other options for employment."
Forging ahead
Full-scale deployment of emerging geothermal technology — now called enhanced geothermal systems, or ESG — is still a few years off, but it's a lot closer that many think, Singer said.
"We're ready to deploy," she said. "This is not technology that needs to be reinvented, because the technology and skills are there. It's a matter of just starting to drill wells, and we're ready to go."
As momentum accelerates, it will allow drilling and development costs to decline through economies of scale and continuous technology and system efficiency improvement, making ESG more economical compared with fossil fuels like natural gas, Singer added.
"One reason for the shale gas revolution success was continuous drilling and constantly evolving technology and techniques to bring down costs," Singer said. "Geothermal has not yet experienced that, and it's what's needed."
Challenges remain. More temperature-resistant drilling technology, for example, is critical as wells go deeper, and a lot more subsurface research is needed to identify the best places for geothermal development.
Permitting issues could also cause problems, slowing development down the same way transmission projects are routinely held up through local, state and federal regulatory requirements that delay planning and construction for years.
But federal- and state-level investment and incentives can help with all those challenges. The U.S. Department of Energy announced in September a new "Energy Earthshot" to lower the costs for ESG by 90% to $45 per megawatt hour by 2035, which would make it significantly more affordable than today's prices for natural gas.
That includes $44 million in new investment's in ESG through the DOE's Frontier Observatory for Geothermal Energy Research laboratory in Utah, plus $84 million in funding under the federal Bipartisan Infrastructure Investment law to support four ESG demonstration projects in different locations.
State-level initiatives like Ortiz y Pino's bills can also help. And apart from potential bipartisan legislative support, environmental organizations are getting on board, given geothermal's potential to provide clean backup power for intermittent solar and wind facilities as the state transitions from fossil fuels to renewables.
Some environmental activists took leading roles in Ortiz y Pino's working group, and environmental organizations are expected to firmly back the senator's bills in this year's session.
"It's such a great opportunity for us to supplement wind and solar in a sustainable fashion," Ortiz y Pino said. "Geothermal runs 24/7, 365 days a year. It doesn't go away, and it makes freeing ourselves from fossil fuels much more realistic."
Sandia National Laboratories' drilling research, long used by oil and gas firms, is being put to use for clean geothermal energy development
Sandia wants to make those efforts more efficient and less expensive...
January 28, 2023 9:26AM
In the near future, clean geothermal energy could heat and cool the entire University of New Mexico campus — and other institutions
Geothermal makeovers could be gaining ground in New Mexico, thanks to technological advancements....
January 28, 2023 9:39AM

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-29 11:08:07

For RobertDyck....

Would you be willing to investigate this Canadian company, and report what you discover?

Sat, January 28, 2023 at 11:01 PM EST
Jan. 28—Canadian company Eavor Inc. drilled an 18,000-foot well bore this past fall in southwest New Mexico to prove it could hammer its way through deep-underground, hard-granite rock to reach previously untapped geothermal energy.

(th)

Void · 2023-01-29 11:13:51

I don't like clashing and I do like your contributions, but......
https://www.yahoo.com/news/theres-almos … 00932.html

Quote:

State-level initiatives like Ortiz y Pino's bills can also help. And apart from potential bipartisan legislative support, environmental organizations are getting on board, given geothermal's potential to provide clean backup power for intermittent solar and wind facilities as the state transitions from fossil fuels to renewables.

Plus, this topic allows geostorage, which implies energy from various sources.

But good work (th).

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-29 11:15:19)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-29 11:20:41

Actually, first post contains solar derived energy to heat as stored in thermal format via concentrating, geothermal derived source heat from deep in the earth from magma plum, gather thermal containing thermal storage to which the heat could also come from nuclear thermal stores as well if we feed the heat into an oil well or gas field and from renewable fuel source to be set aside for later use for sub topics of heating a home or energy electrical conversion for the said same home use.

It's clear that these maps are not being used.

Energy to derive thermal from solar.

energy derived from deep radiation heating.

energy derived from magma.

So, any location that is not orange to red is an area of need where they do not have the same capability of which those same areas that are orange see elevated times when they need cooling.

edit noting a void post

Solar helistat

Solar energy can be stored thermally but also chemically as well.

Thermal heat storage

Which has features similar to
Flow Battery

Voids follow up post
Of course, that leads to heat pipeline construction and pumping system.
Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Update to post 102

Canadian company Eavor Inc. is preparing to break ground in Nevada on its first 20-megawatt geothermal power plant in the U.S. using its new technology to exploit deep hot-rock formations. The project will supply power to local utility NV Energy, pending approval by state regulators in Nevada.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-29 11:39:50

For SpaceNut...

You are right of course! Thanks for the correction ... this topic (by Void) is about ** both ** energy from the core and energy stored in the mantle.

Nice maps! Recent posts by NewMars members have shown how solar energy can be stored effectively in the form of hot water.

It ** should ** be possible for this topic to continue collecting encouraging news about successful implementations of thermal storage, whether from solar source or wind or something else.

(th)

Void · 2023-01-29 12:00:32

My interest could be whare geothermal is a preheat, and a geostored would be connected in serial fashion. The geostored may receive excess energy from a power grid. And so then renewables could be included into the grid, but to charge the geostored, you might use off peak power as well, even if it was from Hydrocarbon burning.

If people do have solar or wind they might feed that grid at times, and might draw from it as well.

So, running electrical production from the Geothermal+Geostorage serial line might involve geothermal 200 to 400 degrees, and maybe with the geostored, you might bump that up a fair amount. That would give hotter steam, and also you could "Rev" the engine for longer periods before the output temperature dropped.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-29 12:03:36)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-29 18:17:45

The article at the link below is about using small explosions to fracture rock to expedite geothermal drilling...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/sandia-natio … 00484.html

Albuquerque Journal, N.M.
Sandia National Laboratories' drilling research, long used by oil and gas firms, is being put to use for clean geothermal energy development
Kevin Robinson-Avila, Albuquerque Journal, N.M.
Sat, January 28, 2023 at 11:02 PM EST
Jan. 28—Small-scale explosions inside one-foot cubes of plexiglass are helping Sandia National Laboratories scientists evaluate how to best use explosives and propellants to improve deep-underground geothermal energy development.
The lab's Geothermal Research Group is using ultra-high-speed cameras that record the explosions at 1 million frames per second, plus specialized microphones to detect the sounds of tiny fractures as they form inside the plexiglass, which mimics many of the properties in rock.
The experiments are shedding more light on ways to steer and manage geothermal drilling operations that aim to crack open subsurface layers of hard granite, allowing developers to capture heat from underground hot-rock formations that can be used for electric generation, or for heating and cooling buildings and communities.
The current project is one of many research initiatives that Sandia has conducted for decades to improve drilling technology. Its experiments directly contributed in the past to modern industry methods that oil and gas companies use today to extract hydrocarbons from hard shale rock.
Geothermal energy developers are now applying those same methods to penetrate far deeper into the Earth than ever before, and Sandia wants to help make those efforts more efficient and less expensive, said Geothermal Research Group Manager Giorgia Bettin.
"The big issue with geothermal development is cost and risk," Bettin told the Journal. "Geothermal operations require large initial investments with a lot of risk, because it's hard to know subsurface conditions, where to drill, and how to access those deep geothermal resources."
In the controlled-explosions project, Sandia is working with Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, which has extensive computer models of underground explosions based on decades of experiments that started with nuclear testing in the 1960s, said Lawrence Livermore computer model expert Oleg Vorobiev.
"Eventually, the goal is to understand how to create fracture networks in hot, compressed granite at significant depths," Vorobiev said in a statement. "This is very challenging, computationally, because events occur at different timescales. Shockwave propagation is very fast compared with microfracture formation caused by explosive gasses."
Sandia is working with many other national labs as well to advance geothermal technology, with financing from the U.S. Department of Energy's Geothermal Technologies Office.
"It's a group effort across the national lab complex," Bettin said. "We're all working as a team because we understand how important this research is."
That includes development of advanced tools, sensors and methodologies to characterize subsurface conditions, determine temperatures, and pinpoint hot-zone locations.
"It's data fusion, combining different methodologies for new ways to assess conditions and get higher resolutions of what the subsurface looks like," Bettin said. "It includes a lot of software development and data analysis."
New methods and tools can help optimize drilling operations with real-time down-hole data.
"Live data streams can allow drillers to analyze operations on the spot," Bettin said. "It can tell them if they're drilling in optimal zones or if they need to alter the operation."
Past Sandia research paved the way for development of high-temperature-resistant drilling tools, such as a specially designed and lubricated down-hole hammer needed for deep-underground drilling. The lab created a special high operating temperature, or HOT, test facility for that research that includes a 20-foot-tall drill rig, a heating chamber and a process gas heater to simulate underground conditions.
Such research is critical to move modern geothermal energy development forward, something new legislation introduced in this year's session in Santa Fe by Sen. Gerald Ortiz y Pino, D-Albuquerque, aims to increase through local entities.
The bill, SB 8, would establish a $10 million state fund to make grants of up to $250,000 for New Mexico universities, state agencies and tribal governments to study the costs and benefits of geothermal projects, plus $15 million for low-cost loans for public and private entities. It would also authorize $600,000 in annual funding for the Energy, Minerals and Natural Resources Department to oversee grant and loan applications and promote development, plus $500,000 in annual funding for a new "center of excellence" at the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology in Socorro.
The funding will help EMNRD to pursue federal grants for geothermal research and development, said Tom Solomon, an environmentalist who facilitated a geothermal working group that Ortiz y Pino established last year. The group identified more than $600 million in federal assistance available for geothermal development nationwide.
"We need state-level matching funds to obtain federal assistance," Solomon told the Journal. "That's why we put the geothermal funding into the bill to leverage federal dollars."
If approved, the new center of excellence could allow NM Tech to significantly expand its research on New Mexico's subsurface geothermal resource potential, said Shari Kelly, a senior geophysicist with the state Bureau of Geology and Mineral Resources. It would also support new geothermal-related education and training opportunities for students, plus collaborative efforts among state universities and colleges to advance the industry.
New Mexico State University would directly participate in the center of excellence, complimenting NM Tech's geological research with projects to further advance electronics, tools and machinery for deep-underground development, said NMSU Electrical Engineering Associate Professor Olga Larova.
There's almost unlimited clean, geothermal energy under our feet. New tech could help unleash that potential in New Mexico.
Modern drilling capabilities developed by the oil and gas industry are opening the gateway to...
January 28, 2023 9:12AM
In the near future, clean geothermal energy could heat and cool the entire University of New Mexico campus — and other institutions
Geothermal makeovers could be gaining ground in New Mexico, thanks to technological advancements....
January 28, 2023 9:39AM

(th)

Terraformer · 2023-01-30 03:32:13

Certain granites, such as are found in Cornwall, are heated by radioative decay. Essentially we're tapping a natural radioisotope generator. Politically feasible nuclear power

“If you drill a kilometre borehole anywhere in the UK, the typical geothermal gradient or temperature at the bottom will be just over 20˚C – in Cornwall it is close to 40˚C,” explains Shail

The requirements *at the moment* for economical electricity generation are >160C heat sources. Assuming it's rejecting to a heat sink @300K (27C), that 430K water gives a maximum theoretical efficiency of only 30%, and yet is apparently economical. Real world heat engines get ~75% of their theoretical maximum, so they're getting ~23% power conversion, not much different to solar PV.

Now, if we could just get a nice cold heat sink, shallow wells could give us electricity...

kbd512 · 2023-01-30 13:18:25

Terraformer,

You could run a pipe (giant coolant loop) containing supercritical CO2 into the granite, then run the other end into the homes to directly use the thermal energy for water and space heating. This is Calliban's "District Heating" concept combined with geothermal energy, rather than nuclear reactors. It's low-grade heat energy that would otherwise have very low efficiency attempting to convert it into electricity. Providing hot water and clothes drying could be accomplished the same way. That takes care of everything except electric motors, lighting, and electronic devices. To keep the CO2 out of the homes and businesses if a pipe leaks, water could be used as the thermal power transfer medium from the power plant to the powered structures. This system could be incredibly compact and very unobtrusive as compared to giant wind turbines. On top of that, pipes would last much longer than wind turbines. Exploratory and offshore drilling is very expensive, but onshore batch drilling to 1km in depth takes less than a week per well, at most. Normally, we can hit that depth within a few days and case it within a week. We would use non-toxic water-based mud for 40C. We've even recovered water-based mud for re-use. Even if we had to drill several thousand wells, you're looking at two year's worth of drilling activities for 60 land rigs, which provides a very generous buffer between jobs, which shouldn't be required with reasonably good planning.

Terraformer · 2023-01-30 13:38:50

Yes, we can't use 60C temps for effective electricity generation *with such warm heat sinks*.

However, there was a breakthrough in 2014 that I have made a thread about that could change that... I'm honestly quite excited about the sort of temperature reductions they've achieved. 40C drop... from radiating to the sky... in broad daylight.

But yes, we use more low grade heat than we do electricity in appliances. Too often the latter is converted straight into the former -- and even when it isn't, we're burning gas that could be used to generate half as much energy in the form of far more versatile and useful electricity. Just making low grade heat really cheap would go a long way to improving our living standards (long showers, well heated homes, could even extend the growing season in polytunnels and produce some fruits in country we presently fly in).

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-30 15:35:19

For Terraformer re #112

In a recent post (perhaps in another topic) you referred to "the blob" .... I am guessing you are referring to what I might call the "body politic" but I'm not sure.

This is Void's Geothermal topic, so I'll get to the point ... >> the only way to move a blob is leadership. The UK population is (in my opinion) perfectly capable of harnessing geothermal energy as well as nuclear energy, and I'm pretty sure there are examples of achievements by UK citizens in both fields.

There are risks associated with any undertaking, and the fear of failure is strong. Fear of failure can be overwhelming.

Leadership is many things, but I'm ** pretty sure ** that overcoming fear in "the blob" is part of the spectrum of features of leadership.

You've mentioned Prince William as (possibly) capable of providing leadership in the present time. I suspect that Prince William is NOT going to come up with an idea to provide 1 Megawatt of power to every UK citizen on his own.

Someone would have to offer that idea, and then work with the Prince to overcome all the fears that are sure to arise.

(th)

Terraformer · 2023-01-30 15:58:11

We're not getting 1MW, not unless we move Britain to space or build coolant systems under the seas. England has a population density of ~400 per km^2, which is to say there's 2500 m^2 of land per person. Britain as a whole is >250/km^2, so <4000 m^2 a person. A megawatt a person (which would take proton-proton fusion, or a new Empire; Britain would be using about four to five times the current annual energy consumption) adds 400W/m^2, making us far hotter than the Sahara. That's a pentupling of our current insolation...

For now, I'm content to strive for a kilowatt of electricity a person. We come closest to that at times; it's about the limits of what the grid can handle. Obviously this would require appropriately placed power stations: if they were all in one location, the grid there would collapse. But 1kWe each is maybe 60-100% more than we currently use, and since electricity use tracks strongly with GDP it seems worth aiming for.

The other thing, as I said, is low grade heat. Heating is probably the biggest contributor to our living standards. I think if pressed people would rather give up cars than hot showers. If we can get plenty of low grade heat, we can enjoy warm well ventilated homes, long hot showers, and exotic fruits grown in polytunnels, even if liquid fuel is scarce so we have to ride our ebikes everywhere and take the train. Plus, of course, it would dramatically cut gas usage, freeing it up for electricity generation. All in all, we may be able to replace maybe a third of our energy use with cheap hot water.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-31 13:47:45

For Terraformer re #114

Your proposed alternative goal is 1000 times less than the ambitious goal I offered.

your alternative has the distinct advantage of sounding plausible to the average person.

I'm willing to support that lower objective.

The next step is to find a way to move "the blob" to achieve at the required level.

The agent of change must accomplish whatever is to be accomplished with nothing but words.

It is clear that a few figures will help, as well as carefully chosen images.

I suspect that there is NO one in your part of the world who can do the job better than you can.

You've already identified a key player who might have the skills and positive attitude needed.

I am willing to help with composition of a letter, if you are interested in pursuing this windmill.

Perhaps others in the forum would be willing to add encouragement or even technical assistance.

Please keep in mind that there is considerable talent in the small pool of NewMars contributors.

We don't see much evidence, I admit, but here and there in the archive there are little nuggets that I take as encouraging signs.

(th)

Terraformer · 2023-01-31 16:18:42

TH,

Are you familiar with the show Yes Minister? The Civil Service is a large component of the Blob.

https://www.voanews.com/a/europe_britai … 84096.html

The Blob is not something to move, it's something to work around and overrule. Alongside Janet, who reflexively opposes anything anyone wants to build anywhere near her. Trying to persuade them is a lost cause -- and why should I try? They have no moral right to veto anything, if I can work around or overrule or trick them I will happily do so.

Cummings’ "blob" is an eclectic mix of cautious bureaucrats, academics, the mainstream media, judges and the traditional mouthpieces of British business, the Confederation of British Industry, the CBI, and the Institute of Directors.

If anything will work politically it will be getting someone like Truss back into power, this time without a party that stabs her in the front. But they stabbed her in the front. I'd rather make the Blob and their endless frustrating of everything obsolete, as Bucky Fuller would put it. Not going to argue with Buggy whip manufacturers. So if I can find a way to generate power that doesn't have any established opposition I'd like to take it, and take it fast before they realise what's happening.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-31 18:34:37

For Terraformer ... re Yes Minister and Dr. Who....

This first section is a total branch from the topic ... The city where I lived some time ago supported a strong Public Broadcasting Station. They delivered Yes Minister and Dr. Who. I saw every episode of Dr. Who, and many of Yes Minister. I must admit Dr. Who episodes come more easily to mind than those of Yes Minister.

In the context of your question, I'd be willing to go back and review episodes of Yes Minister you might recommend. Dr. Who has kept going, and is venturing into the thought space of the current generation. It was possible to catch up with the series because originally Dr. Who was broadcast as a little 15 minute segment, once a week. The reincarnation of Dr. Who was a clever technique for keeping the series going over the decades.

***
Back to the topic ....

There are many leaders in British history whose records are available for study. I am grateful to the authors and movie makers who've provided glimpses of many of them. My impression is that the great ones were able to deal with the blob, whatever form it took in their time.

You don't have to deal with the blob directly, in any case. That is the role of someone born to the job, don't you think?

Your role, if you decide to accept it, is to offer to support your chosen leader in developing a plan to insure sufficient power/energy flows into the environment so that the per capita total meets or exceeds your chosen goal of 1 Kw.

A leader for a project like this needs to be above party, and your country is lucky enough to have exactly such a person (or two or three).

Party ascendancy comes and goes like the tide. A leader for a project of this magnitude needs to persist for generations.

***
Step one (it seems to me) is to determine the amount of energy flowing in the region, and extend that to a figure per capita. You've made a serious opening move in that direction, but (as I recall the post) there are some ranges that might be constrained a bit with further research.

We have members of the forum who may be able to help pin down figures, if they are willing.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-31 19:42:45

I have just in the past few days covered this radiant energy creation via solar panels to produce energy during the night in this topic Exposed: The smear tactics against wind and solar by Void to which it is being done with a Pellitier device to which the temperature differential is what does this.

A Pellitier device is a thermoelectric generator (TEG), also called a Seebeck generator, is a solid-state device that converts heat flux (temperature differences) directly into electrical energy through a phenomenon called the Seebeck effect (a form of thermoelectric effect).
With the same device attached to power creating the reverse as it will produce a hot and cold side to the device with the power applied.

It is a case of how much difference is required to generate what level of power for each device or meter of these assembled for the purpose.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_generator

Issue is that it's still being made from those same hazardous materials that solar panels contain.

https://scienceimproved.com/how-to-gene … generator/

20 degrees temperature difference: 0.97V and 225 mA. 40 degrees temperature difference: 1.8V and 368 mA. 60 degrees temperature difference: 2.4V and 469 mA. 80 degrees temperature difference: 3.6V

https://phononic.com/resources/the-seeb … ric-cooler

86554_cb072b946d6c43c28ba104ab01b278a6_1531836733.png?ssl=1

https://inbthermoelectric.com/peltier-seebeck/

The INB product line combines high quality thermoelectric ( called also Peltier) products with low cost, and supplies cooling solutions to clients around the world. Thermoelectric modules are small, lightweight and completely silent devices. They use solid state technology and have no moving parts.
The modules serve either as a heat pump or as an electrical power generator.
If the Seebeck effect is used to generate electricity, the module is known as a Thermoelectric Generator (TEG). The Seebeck effect describes the process of converting temperature differences into electricity. The Seebeck effect is commonly used in a device called a thermocouple (because it is made from a coupling or junction of materials, usually metals) to measure a temperature difference directly or to measure an absolute temperature by setting one end to a known temperature.
A metal of unknown composition can be classified by its thermoelectric effect if a metallic probe of known composition, kept at a constant temperature, is held in contact with it. Industrial quality control instruments use this Seebeck effect to identify metal alloys.
Conversely, if the Peltier effect is used to pump heat, the module is known as a Thermoelectric Cooler or TEC. INB specializes in TEC applications.

The 2 functions are in the same device.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-31 20:28:34

For SpaceNut ....

Please take a moment to read up on the difference between the Seebeck and the Peltier effects.

The are NOT the same. They are the exact opposite.

If a high school student reads your post they will be misled.

A Pellitier device is a thermoelectric generator (TEG), also called a Seebeck generator, is a solid-state device that converts heat flux (temperature differences) directly into electrical energy through a phenomenon called the Seebeck effect (a form of thermoelectric effect).

(th)

Terraformer · 2023-02-01 12:18:41

Given his ranch in Texas, I suspect GW Johnson will have some experience with boreholes, ranging from deep ones for wells to shallow ones for posts and planting.

GW, if you read this, do you have any experience with the costs of boring boreholes? I've seen figures of £100/m for them in the context of 60m deep shallow geothermal, but it seems off for the shallowest (5-10m) ones.

kbd512 · 2023-02-01 18:26:32

Terraformer,

Drilling a 1km deep geothermal well should cost between $49,000 USD and $130,000 USD. That includes casing the well. Please bear in mind that these are national averages that don't reflect the costs associated with drilling at any old location. If you can reuse the mud for drilling subsequent strings, then you could save quite a bit over the entire project. If you lose a lot of mud during drilling operations, then the sky's the limit on costs associated with adding more mud. If it costs much more than $200K, then you'd probably cap the well and move on to drilling the next one. Knowing when to cut your losses is important. We saved a lot of cost by reconditioning mud, but that has its own costs like centrifuges and chemical property checks. You'll be using water-based mud exclusively, which is pretty cheap and non-toxic. You need a lot of water, salt, and barite. More than anything else, you need to know what you're drilling through so you don't get yourself into a situation that could potentially create a well control issue that forces you to cap the well. Normally, the customers specify what lost circulation materials have to be on-hand, on the drilling rig, or available at the nearest field warehouse. You'll have pallets of nut plug on the rig to prevent loss of mud into the formation. You'll need brine to clean out the well prior to casing it.

More than anything else, your low gravity solids removal efficiency drastically affects drilling costs, because it dictates the total volume of mud you have to keep circulating to maintain appropriate dilution so that your cutting heads aren't grinding up previously removed cuttings. If you have near-perfect LGSRE, then you need very little mud. However, this is also atypical. 85% LGSRE is pretty darned good. Investing in high quality shakers, screens, and/or centrifuges really does help, though.

Beyond that, labor, major equipment transport (the rig itself, trucking for materials supply to land rigs, barges or supply ships for offshore work) and equipment maintenance, fuel, and mud volume are your greatest cost contributors. Normally, you'd mix water-based drilling fluid on-site, so you don't need a liquid mud plant (these are not cheap).

Anyway, I hope that answers your question about what's going to cost you a lot of money.

Terraformer · 2023-02-02 16:58:16

Thinking about storing summer heat some more, I'm leaning towards an air source heat pump.

We'd need the pump anyway to get heat out after a while, so it wouldn't add much to the system. The theoretical CoP for going from 20c to 30c is 30; in reality we might get 20? 20 kWhr of heat stored for every kWhr of power isn't bad, especially if the electricity is cheap because it's summer.

The really big advantage I see to it is that it allows us to use the entire country as the collector, rather than taking up space with collector arrays. In winter we reverse it, and draw from our 30-40c block of mud to heat homes and water. If we did get 40c we could take out half the space heating energy (30c underfloor) without even needing the pump...

Terraformer · 2023-02-03 06:29:33

In Britain, the temperature at 1m depth varies quite a bit through the year, with mean temperatures in England ranging from 12c in the South to 9c in the North. If we could get the soil up to the typical air temperature in the summer months (June, July, August), we could add an extra 10c to this. Call it, oh, seasonally enhanced ground source heat pumps?

tahanson43206 · 2023-02-03 07:49:29

For Terraformer re #123

The trend line for your thinking seems to be an asymptote that approaches but never quite reaches zero.

We started out discussing 30 kilometer deep geothermal wells, and now it appears a 1 meter depth is the focus.

I offered a 1 Megawatt per capita energy flow as a goal, and you cut that back to 1 kilowatt, and now I get the impression we are down to 1 watt and falling.

Perhaps I am merely misinterpreting the text?

How can we put this topic back on track to achieve a Real Universe result for the population of the UK?

(th)

Terraformer · 2023-02-03 07:51:49

What are you on about.

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