Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-13 08:21:57

For SpaceNut .... Void has a topic with Hydrogen Peroxide in the title, but the author clearly does not want anyone else intruding.

This topic is set up for discussion (and hopefully gathering of useful information) of the prospect for using hydrogen peroxide in pure form to match the supply of carbon monoxide or other oxygen needed molecule for energy storage/recovery on Mars.

On Mars (as is well known) the supply of atmospheric oxygen is limited, and in any case, whatever oxygen there may be is insufficient for operation of energy transformation systems on Mars.

I am hoping that NewMars members will post their inventions of machines that store fuel and hydrogen peroxide for fuel cells, internal combustion engines, and other devices that might be possible.

The output of the reaction of Hydrogen Peroxide and Carbon Monoxide should be water and CO2. The CO2 can be vented to the atmosphere and the water saved in a collection tank since water is precious on Mars.

I'd like to see practical designs of machinery and processes to use Hydrogen Peroxide as described.

This topic has the potential to become a gold mine ? water mine ? of valuable information for Mars settlers.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-13 08:23:52

Here is a set of Snippets from Google to help start the discussion...

Hydrogen Peroxide is a Powerful Oxidizer - USP Technologies
www.h2o2.com › products-and-services › us-peroxide-technologies › nam...
Hydrogen Peroxide is one of the most powerful oxidizers known -- stronger than chlorine, chlorine dioxide, and potassium permanganate. And through catalysis, ...
People also ask
Can hydrogen peroxide generate electricity?
(Phys.org)—Scientists have used sunlight to turn seawater (H2O) into hydrogen peroxide (H2O2), which can then be used in fuel cells to generate electricity. It is the first photocatalytic method of H2O2 production that achieves a high enough efficiency so that the H2O2 can be used in a fuel cell.
Electricity from seawater: New method efficiently produces hydrogen ...
phys.org › news › 2016-05-electricity-seawater-method-efficiently-hydrogen
More results
Is hydrogen peroxide considered an oxidizer?
Can hydrogen peroxide be an oxidizing agent?
Is oxidizer and hydrogen peroxide the same?
Hydrogen Peroxide as a Sustainable Energy Carrier - NCBI
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › pmc › articles › PMC3584454
Hydrogen peroxide is regarded as an environmentally benign energy carrier because it can be produced by the electrocatalytic two-electron reduction of O2, ...
A promising oxidizer for rocket propulsion and its application in solid ...
www.sciencedirect.com › science › article › pii
This paper discusses the potential use of hydrogen peroxide as oxidizer for solid rocket propulsion. While hydrogen peroxide is a liquid in normal ...
Hydrogen Peroxide - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics
www.sciencedirect.com › topics › earth-and-planetary-sciences › hydrogen...
Hydrogen peroxide has chemical applications, biological function, domestic uses, and therapeutic use, including use as an antimicrobial and oxidizing agent.
Hydrogen peroxide could power future fuel cell - Purdue University
www.purdue.edu › uns › 9912.Rusek.peroxide.html
The cell produces electricity through chemical reactions between hydrogen peroxide and aluminum. If perfected, such an electricity source could one day replace ...
Hydrogen peroxide could be key to future power sources
www.purdue.edu › uns › 991029.Heister.peroxide.html
Oct 29, 1999 · Breaking down peroxide not only would provide oxygen for combustion but also would produce steam, an important byproduct that could be used to ...
Hydrogen Peroxide Production from Solar Water Oxidation
pubs.acs.org › doi › acsenergylett.9b02199
Nov 13, 2019 · Apart from the electricity output, the formed H2O2 can be used as an antibacterial agent and a bleaching agent, and this result clearly ...
Hydrogen peroxide - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Hydrogen_peroxide
Concentrated hydrogen peroxide, or "high-test peroxide", decomposes explosively when heated and has been used as a propellant in rocketry. Hydrogen peroxide ...
Hydrogen peroxide
www.cs.mcgill.ca › ~rwest › wikispeedia › wpcd › Hydrogen_peroxide
Peroxide used as an oxidizer gives a somewhat lower Isp than liquid oxygen, but is dense, storable, noncryogenic and can be more easily used to drive gas ...
Hydrogen peroxide, universal oxidizing agent, | EurekAlert!
www.eurekalert.org › pub_releases › nrco-hpu020921
Feb 16, 2021 · Hydrogen peroxide, universal oxidizing agent, high-efficiency production by simple process ... Hydrogen peroxide is used as a disinfectant, after ...

I am looking for positive feedback in this topic. I would like the topic to be an enjoyable reading experience for future readers.

If a NewMars member feels a powerful impulse to say something unpleasant or hurtful, there are plenty of chat topics available.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-13 09:17:10

Post #2 includes a link to a study of reaction of hydrogen peroxide with aluminum.... the output appears to be aluminum oxide, which would store on a vehicle during travel.

From a strict thermodynamic standpoint, the answer is yes: the reaction between hydrogen peroxide and aluminium, giving origin to aluminium oxide and water, is spontaneous, and involves a decrease in the Gibbs free energy content of the system where it takes place.
Can hydrogen peroxide be used to oxidize aluminum? - ECHEMI
www.echemi.com › community › can-hydrogen-peroxide-be-used-to-oxidi...
About Featured Snippets
People also ask
Does hydrogen peroxide react with metal?
Does hydrogen react with aluminum?
What does aluminum react violently with?
What will oxidize aluminum?
Can hydrogen peroxide be used to oxidize aluminum? - Quora
www.quora.com › Can-hydrogen-peroxide-be-used-to-oxidize-aluminum
Theoretically, yes. In fact hydrogen peroxide/water solution in any concentration will oxidize aluminum 100% of the time. The problem is, ...
Why does peroxide make aluminum burn? - Quora
Does tin foil prevent hydrogen peroxide from naturally decomposing ...
What is the formula for aluminum peroxide? - Quora
What happens when put together hydrogen peroxide and sodium ...
More results from www.quora.com
Any thoughts on possible reactions of H2O2 and Aluminum?
www.researchgate.net › post › Any_thoughts_on_possible_reactions_of_H...
H2O2 is a very strong oxidizer. H2O2 of high purity is incompatible with almost all materials except for pure aluminum and some stainless steels.
Hydrogen Peroxide on Aluminium Surface - IOPscience
iopscience.iop.org › article › pdf
In hydrogen peroxide because of excessive oxygen the reaction is vigorous and the bubble formed explodes. Instead of normal boiling which is observed in water, ...
The corrosion of aluminium in concentrated hydrogen peroxide
onlinelibrary.wiley.com › doi › pdf › jctb.5010111101
Aluminium (99.5%) has long been recognised as the most satisfactory material for the transport and storage of concentrated hydrogen peroxide, but little has ...
[PDF] HYDROGEN PEROXIDE - Solvay
www.solvay.com › sites › files › srpend221 › files › H2O2 Materials ...
The corrosivity of stabilized hydrogen peroxide on aluminum is minimal, ... Different resins react differently and can be degraded by hydrogen peroxide.
NaCl + H2O2 + Aluminum: What are the products?
www.sciencemadness.org › ... › Fundamentals › Beginnings
What happened is that the water reacted with the aluminium, forming aluminium hydroxide. The acidic stabilisers and the H2O2 itself could also ...
The interference of copper, iron and aluminum with hydrogen ...
www.sciencedirect.com › science › article › pii
Jan 15, 2022 · H2O2 was over-consumed due to reactions with Cu, Fe2+ and Fe3+. ... Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) has been a commonly used reducing agent in the ...
The reaction of aluminum with hydrogen and other substances
melscience.com › AU-en › articles › reaction-aluminum-hydrogen-and-oth...
Aluminum does not directly react with hydrogen, although there is a solid polymeric compound, alane, in which so-called three-center bonds exist. At a ...
US2219294A - Aluminum container for hydrogen peroxide
patents.google.com › patent
Commercial hydrogen :peroxide solutions in contact with aluminum surfaces not [treated in accordance with the present invention react therewith and pit the ...
Related searches
Hydrogen peroxide and aluminum foil reaction
Aluminum peroxide formula
Hydrogen peroxide reaction with hydrogen peroxide
al+h2o2
How to oxidize aluminum fast

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-13 09:23:27

If we had a NewMars member with the ability to create images, here is an opportunity ...

It is possible to imagine a vehicle on Mars, powered by stored energy in the form of hydrogen peroxide (a liquid) and compressed CO (a gas).

The output of the reaction of these components would be water and CO2.

A vehicle might contain a set of four tanks:

1) Liquid hydrogen peroxide topped off at start of journey
2) Tank empty to start, to hold liquid water output from reaction during travel
3) Gaseous CO under pressure
4) Tank empty to start, to hold CO2 under pressure from reaction during travel.

A variation on the gas tank theme might be a version with a piston that moves from one end to the other, as CO is pulled from one end, and CO2 is pushed into the other.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-13 09:48:28

Earlier in the forum, there is a discussion of energy storage based upon oxidation of iron. While possible, I came away from the discussion with the impression it is not practical for a power plant.

However, the possibility of using hydrogen peroxide as an oxidizer carrier led to discovery that at least one research group has investigated use of hydrogen peroxide in a battery.

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsenergylett.2c01417

Rechargeable Metal–Hydrogen Peroxide Battery, A Solution to Improve the Metal–Air Battery Performance
Samira Siahrostami*
Cite this: ACS Energy Lett. 2022, 7, 8, 2717–2724
Publication Date:July 25, 2022
https://doi.org/10.1021/acsenergylett.2c01417
Copyright © 2022 American Chemical Society
RIGHTS & PERMISSIONS
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SUBJECTS:Batteries,Catalysts,Electrodes,Materials,
Go to ACS Energy Letters
ACS Energy Letters
Abstract
Abstract Image
Rechargeable metal–air batteries are set to play an important role in electrifying the transportation sector and transitioning to a sustainable energy society with zero carbon footprint. However, their performance is vastly hampered by the sluggish kinetics of oxygen redox reactions at the air electrode. Herein, a rechargeable metal–hydrogen peroxide battery is introduced that is air-free and uses onsite generated and reduced hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) as an oxygen source for charging and discharging. Replacing oxygen redox reactions with H2O2 redox reactions results in a much faster kinetics and a significant improvement in the overall battery performance. Using computationally driven material design with a set of thermodynamic rules, highly stable, active, and selective bifunctional catalyst materials for H2O2 generation and reduction are proposed. This technology has the potential to overcome the long-standing issues with metal–air batteries paving the path for advancing the next-generation rechargeable battery technology based on H2O2 redox chemistry.
Cited By
This article has not yet been cited by other publications.

If I understand the implications of the article correctly, a tank of hydrogen peroxide could be carried in an electric vehicle powered by suitable batteries, so that recharging could be done on the road.

This arrangement would have a great number of benefits, if it is a real possibility.

The pdf of the paper is 4 Mb. If a NewMars member has the time to download and study the paper, a comment in this topic would be appreciated.

While (i'm sure) the author is not thinking about Mars, the technology seems (to me at least) well suited for there.

(th)

kbd512 · 2023-01-13 19:43:01

Why not carry the tank of Hydrogen Peroxide, pump it through a fuel cell, and skip the battery brick?

We keep revisiting this battery energy density problem because it never went away.

These guys only built a computer model of interactions between some materials that could be used for their idea, and then declared that their computer model output has potential. They don't even have a working prototype battery to play with. This is more scientifically interesting stuff with zero short-term potential (1-5 years), and merely the possibility of medium-term potential (5-20 years). After they build a working prototype, not made from scarce materials, and it demonstrates an actual improvement over all existing technology, then we can evaluate what it's good for, if anything at all.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-13 20:23:57

For kbd512 re addition to this topic....

Thanks for picking up on this suggestion for possible application on Mars ...

The reason I'm interested is that the oxidizer is carried in liquid form, at the price of additional mass for the water molecule that is serving as a host. The tradeoff appears to be that the tank for the liquid can be less massive than the tank to hold oxygen under pressure.

However, what I'm hoping you might be willing to think about (and hopefully write about) is the way you might design a vehicle (fuel cell version is fine) and show the flow of materials.

Would you keep the gas output from the fuel cell, or would you release it to the atmosphere.

There might be a business case for doing that.

If you decide to keep the output from the fuel cell, it would be water (possibly as steam (I'm not sure)) and the CO2, then would you store them in a tank combined?

Hopefully this question will inspire some of your noted (and well documented) creativity.

Update about an hour later ...

I just spent some time with Google, trying to find any reports of research on combustion of carbon dioxide with hydrogen peroxide.

The results included discussion of fuel cell reactions, but the citations I found did not report anything in current use.

Nothing showed up with the specific conditions of CO mixed with hydrogen peroxide in a piston.

I did find a citation reporting that hydrogen peroxide becomes unstable at elevated temperature.

I deduce that "elevated" may mean above 150 degrees Celsius, but that's just a guess.

150 degrees Celsius is given as the boiling point of hydrogen peroxide, when water boils at 100 degrees Celsius. I presume that these figures are for Standard Temperature and Pressure. The boiling point of hydrogen peroxide would (presumably) be lower on Mars.

On the ** other ** hand, temperatures on Mars would tend to be on the chilly side.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-13 21:22:59

At last ... pay dirt! Google came up with encouraging reports on combustion of hydrogen peroxide with kerosene.

This combination was reported to have been used for many decades in rocketry.

The distinct advantage is that both fuel and oxidizer are liquids at STP.

Search string was: burn kerosene with hydrogen peroxide oxidizer

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-14 08:04:49

The confirmation that hydrogen peroxide can work as an oxidizer (reported in post #8) suggests/encourages investigation to see if there are liquid carbon based fuels that are less energy intensive to make than kerosene.

The simplest fuel to make, that remains liquid at the temperatures likely on Mars, would appear to be alcohol.

The next direction to look (for this topic) is for reports of experiments that might have been done using hydrogen peroxide as the oxidizer and less complex carbon based fuels than kerosene.

The winner in this combination is the one that provides required performance with the least investment of energy, and the optimum configuration of tankage, and the optimum machinery to translate potential energy into kinetic energy.

I don't think anyone on Earth has explored this direction for Mars, but my knowledge is (of course) limited, so NewMars members may discover that some research has been done, or at least that someone has pondered the question in enough depth to have posted something on the Internet that Google can find.

In order for comparisons to be meaningful a standard of work is needed.

Suggestions from NewMars members for a standard of work are welcome.

Once a standard of work is established, all alternative configurations of fuel and oxidizer can be compared....

Compare points would include (but not be limited to)....

1) Energy required to make the fuel to produce the desired result
2) Energy required to make the oxidizer to produce the desired result
3) Tankage required to hold fuel and oxidizer to produce the desired result
4) Tankage required to hold the output of the process (output is most likely to be a gas but may be a solid or perhaps even a liquid)

Whatever I've overlooked...

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-14 10:39:52

The issue for mars is isolation of the peroxide from the soils as that is assumed to be present due to a signature for hydrogen and for life signs as sort of antifreeze for plants or single cell organisms.

Kerosene is a dense fuel for tank size and for keeping as it does not require cryogenic temperatures.

Still for mars it is the energy of creation that is the issue without nuclear reactors.

Here is where it falls on earth production temperature levels.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-14 11:12:16

For SpaceNut re #10

Thanks for a very interesting post! It is helpful in a number of respects.

In particular, I appreciate seeing where kerosene falls out as the distillate ascends the tower.

***
However, I don't think this information is likely to apply to Mars.

It might, because there may turn out to be fossil fuel stores on Mars. That possibility seems unlikely.

However, Titan is reported to contain oceans of hydrocarbon molecules, so the post you found would seem useful there.

***
If you have a bit of time (here or there) please look for comparable information for Mars.

My impression is that ** all ** carbon linked molecules will have to be created on Mars, using CO2 as input and energy (from somewhere) to add complexity to the carbon chains.

Because kerosene is a complex molecule, I am guessing it will not be a popular fuel on Mars. My guess is that lower complexity molecules that are easier to make will be popular, even if the volume of the fuel tank is greater. The hydrogen peroxide tank is going to be much larger, if I understand the Google links correctly.

PS ... perchlorate is the poison in Mars soils

Hydrogen Peroxide is used on Earth as a medical treatment.

There is no Chlorine in Hydrogen Peroxide.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-14 12:41:04

Reaction chambers still have the starting high temperatures and with the distillation comes the catalysts to transform the lengths of the changes of hydrocarbons into the fuels we desire and that is the cooling and temperature control part of the equipment that is not designed as off the shelf, but custom based for deep pockets of money.
How many of the different chambers are ready for use on the commercial market for the size we desire for throughput....

Trace amounts are found with the remaining trace being higher in the atmosphere as reactions of water and co2 via UV.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 1X06008715

Freshly ground basaltic minerals produce sufficient quantities of hydrogen peroxide (H 2 O 2) when immersed in solution to explain the oxidizing characteristics of Martian soil samples collected by the Viking landers.

https://spaceref.com/press-release/hydr … tmosphere/

Viking and other searches
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3311001061

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-21 07:46:25

Hydrogen peroxide is attractive as an oxidizer because it can be stored in space as a liquid for an extended period of time.

This makes the oxidizer attractive as an oxidizer for a Space Tug, which will remain always in space and which must be resupplied between trips.

Here are some snippets that Google came up with ...

Specific impulse sea level: 273 s. Location: 1665.
Propellant Formulation: H2O2-98%/RP-1. Optimum Oxidizer to Fuel Ratio: 7.07.
H2O2/Kerosene
www.astronautix.com › h2o2kerosene
About Featured Snippets
Can a mixture of kerosene and hydrogen peroxide result in a rocket ...
www.quora.com › Can-a-mixture-of-kerosene-and-hydrogen-peroxide-res...
Yes, hydrogen peroxide as an oxidizer and kerosene as a fuel is a possible and reasonable combination. If you want to learn way more, look around on the ...
Is Hydrogen Peroxide mixed with RP-1 a good rocket fuel? - Quora
How effective would hydrogen peroxide/water/nitromethane ... - Quora
How to make a hydrogen peroxide rocket - Quora
Is it possible to create rocket fuel using hydrogen peroxide ... - Quora
More results from www.quora.com
Design specifications of H2O2/kerosene bipropellant rocket system ...
www.sciencedirect.com › science › article › abs › pii
Traditionally nitrogen tetroxide and hydrazine derivatives have been used as the oxidizer and the fuel for the 1000- and 10-N-class bipropellant rocket system.
People also ask
Is kerosene and hydrogen peroxide hypergolic?
Can hydrogen peroxide be used as a propellant?
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[PDF] 1 Hydrogen Peroxide / Kerosene, Liquid-Oxygen / Kerosene, and ...
propulsion-skrishnan.com › pdf
hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) - kerosene (RP1), 2) liquid oxygen (LOX) - RP1, and 3) LOX - liquid methane (LCH4).
Study on Kerosene Based Fuel with Hydrogen Peroxide for ...
adsabs.harvard.edu › full
Hydrogen peroxide and kerosene have been proposed as one of the best potential alternatives for replacing the toxic nitrogen tetroxide and unsymmetrical ...
Bristol Siddeley Gamma - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Bristol_Siddeley_Gamma
They burned kerosene fuel and hydrogen peroxide. Their construction was based on a common combustion chamber design, used either singly or in clusters of up ...
[PDF] Investigation of Hyperbolic Fuels with Hydrogen Peroxide - OSTI.GOV
www.osti.gov › servlets › purl
Peroxide and ethanolamine have a calculated specific impulse of 245 seconds compared to 284 seconds for NTO and monomethyl hydrazine. Introduction. Many ...
Self-Ignition of Fuel Consisting of Hydrogen Peroxide, Kerosene ...
www.researchgate.net › ... › Fossil Fuels › Physics › Kerosene
Jul 5, 2022 · Abstract and Figures ; releasing a droplet into an open vessel. Tests are also conducted in the combustion · - ; engine at pressures of 0.6 and 1 ...
[PDF] HYDROGEN PEROXIDE BASED GREEN PROPELLANTS FOR ...
www.politesi.polimi.it › bitstream › GreenPropulsion_Sharon_Srilochan
temperature and specific impulse values at different O/F ratios of 2,4,6,8,10 and ... Pure hydrogen peroxide to ethanol, RP-1 (Kerosene), and liquid methane.
LH2/H2O2 and CH4/H2O2 rockets ? - NASA Spaceflight Forum
forum.nasaspaceflight.com › ...
Sep 10, 2019 · We know that H2O2/kerosene works since Black Arrow or even before. ... with peroxide rather than oxygen is that the specific impulse takes a ...
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(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-21 09:29:08

A space tug typically is an ION drive stye engine and not a rocket engine to which you want heavy atoms to be the fuel of choice.
Thrusters already have a storable fuel, but it has date limitations and using large would put you into using other fuel types that are not as storable due to either cooling or heating requirements for long term use.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-21 09:43:31

For SpaceNut re #14

You may have missed the work of GW Johnson...

He has produced multiple papers and there are videos of his presentations to North Houston and to the Mars Society.

This has ** nothing ** to do with ion drives, wonderful as they are.

If you do a bit of searching, (and assuming you have the time which I understand is limited) you would find that Dr. Johnson laid out a plan for RobertDyck's Large Ship of 5000 metric tons, to receive a powerful shove away from Earth.

The Space Tug of GW Johnson is a massive machine.

You'll discover, again (if you can ever find the time) that Dr. Johnson has evaluated options for space tugs at Earth, at Mars, for departure and for capture upon return to avoid the dangerous use of aerobraking.

I am investigating Hydrogen Peroxide as the oxidizer because Hydrogen Peroxide can remain liquid in storage in space.

Storage in space is needed because these Space Tugs are huge machines, requiring many tons of propellant, so many refueling flights will be required.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-21 11:06:45

Those are not the normal tug but are velocity boosters to move the mass of the ship from local speed of orbit to interplanetary delta. These are not a throttled engine that can start out full force and lessen its fuel delivery to lessen required force to move the mass but are full power pulsed by design in these are the standard burn duration control.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-21 11:15:27

For SpaceNut re definition of "space tug"

The concept of a marine tugboat seems well established. Most English users would (hopefully) know the general characteristics of tug boats, as used around the world for a great variety of tasks.

There are small tugboats that operate in the Panama Canal, for example, and there are huge ocean going tugboats that move oil platforms for hundreds or thousands of miles.

It appears to be time to enlarge our understanding of what a Space Tug might be. The vessels designed/envisioned by GW Johnson most certainly ** ARE ** Space Tugs, for the simple reason that that's what he calls them.

To my knowledge (admitted limited) no "space tugs" exist in the Solar System today.

It is time to set the scope of the term "Space Tug".

Please cite any examples you can find of an officially designated "Space Tug".

In the mean time, GW Johnson is a member of the forum.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-21 12:52:18

One of the issues for the fuel is the use of it to create power and that means a fuel cell or an internal combustion engine. I know that hydrogen oxygen fuels cell, methane and oxygen and while the peroxide fuel cell might be possible it's not normally something that we would look at for mars.

Space Tug - Departure - Arrival - Orbit changes by tahanson43206

We have several topics and yes, they do contain ion drive engines.
ION Engines
Ion to Mars
Space Tug
Space Tugs
ATV as a tug
SEP mission to Mars

This covers existing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_tug

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-21 13:07:25

For SpaceNut re #18

Thanks for a very NICE follow up and collection of links for study about space tugs.

The Wikipedia entry specifically mentioned rocket pusher implementations such as the one proposed by GW Johnson, but the Wikipedia editor begged off dealing with those at this time, because they do not yet (appear to) exist.

This topic is about Hydrogen Peroxide as an oxidizer, so I'm hoping our forum members will help to develop this into a robust topic.

This particular oxidizer is particularly suitable for a huge Solar System spanning space tug, because it can be maintained indefinitely in space.

The low ISP of a rocket engine using this oxidizer is easily compensated for by employing as many engines as the customer needs for their application.

There is NO need to be limited to a single rocket design such as is needed to launch from Earth, because there is no limit to the size of the mounting frame that can be used for this purpose in space.

There is NO need for streamlining or any other aspect of rocket design that is required for launch from Earth.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-04-23 06:51:12

This quote is from a topic originally created by RobertDyck to discuss the possibility of "burning" CO2 at Mars with a suitable stored liquid.

The quote is from GW Johnson, who went a bit off topic. The presentation by GW is appropriate for ** this ** topic, since the oxidizer is hydrogen peroxide.

tahanson43206 wrote:

Having just re-read the topic from the top, thanks for kbd512 post #43, here is a snip from one of GW's posts:
The closest thing I know to a practical piston engine system independent of atmospheric oxygen was attempted for submarines decades ago. Diesel fuel plus hydrogen peroxide actually did work from storable liquids while submerged. It's somewhat similar to the propulsion of the torpedoes, but more suited to a reusable vehicle. There were great difficulties with it, and it was superseded by atomic power in submarines, then forgotten.
Given some sort of fuel that could replace the diesel, and some way to make hydrogen peroxide on Mars, that technology might lead to practical internal combustion or gas turbine power plants on Mars. The storable liquids are pressurized at around 1 atm, like here. Hydrogen peroxide decomposes to oxygen and steam. Steam is the diluent gas that reduces stream temperatures to something you can confine with cooled steel.
It can be done, but needs some development before we take it to Mars and count on it at the risk of lives.
GW
GW Johnson
McGregor, Texas
While the topic (created by RobertDyck) is about "air breathing engines", the snippet above is about liquids for energy storage.
In the past on this forum, members have invested considerable time and thought evaluating options for gas state fuel and oxidizer systems for Mars.
I'll take a look to see if we have a topic for liquid energy storage systems for Mars.
It's fun seeing RobertDyck's original topic back in view again.

(th)

Calliban · 2023-04-23 16:09:17

An aqueous hydrogen peroxide solution can remain liquid down to -56°C. Vapour pressure will be very low at typical Martian temperatures. The meagre atmospheric pressure of Mars woukd be enough to suppress boiling. So you could keep peroxide solution in a non-pressurised tank. A steel tank would work.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide

Interestingly, methanol doesn't freeze until -97°C. It's vapour pressure would also be negligible at Martian temperatures. So both fuel and oxidiser coukd be non-pressurised.

SpaceNut · 2023-04-23 16:46:36

That would mean daytime shading of tanks would keep them from warming under the mars sun.

tahanson43206 · 2023-04-23 17:52:01

For Calliban re #21, and SpaceNut re #22

Thanks both for helping to build this topic!

In another topic, we have established that an all-gas solution is CO as fuel and oxygen as oxidizer. This solution would appear to be the least energy intensive for preparation of fuel and oxidizer, and the most practical for stored energy as long as the mass of pressure tanks remains below some breakeven point.

The all liquid discussion underway in this topic would appear (subject to correction/adjustment as we go) to have potential value for long range trips on Mars.

The effluent from the CO/O2 solution is CO2 which can be vented to the atmosphere, so there is no need to keep the output.

On the other hand, the output from the methanol/hydrogen peroxide combination would include water vapor, which would seem (to me at least) worth saving, since water will be hard to come by on Mars.

Is there anyone in the group who can compare the system performance of the two methods?

A measure of the two methods should include every aspect of implementation of each, so it may well be beyond the capabilities of members of the existing forum to arrive at an accurate set of figures.

A ball park estimate for comparison of the two systems would be valuable for planners of systems to be implemented on Mars.

(th)

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#1 2023-01-13 08:21:57

Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

#2 2023-01-13 08:23:52

Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

#3 2023-01-13 09:17:10

Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

#4 2023-01-13 09:23:27

Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

#5 2023-01-13 09:48:28

Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

#6 2023-01-13 19:43:01

Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

#7 2023-01-13 20:23:57

Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

#8 2023-01-13 21:22:59

Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

#9 2023-01-14 08:04:49

Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

#10 2023-01-14 10:39:52

Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

#11 2023-01-14 11:12:16

Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

#12 2023-01-14 12:41:04

Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

#13 2023-01-21 07:46:25

Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

#14 2023-01-21 09:29:08

Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

#15 2023-01-21 09:43:31

Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

#16 2023-01-21 11:06:45

Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

#17 2023-01-21 11:15:27

Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

#18 2023-01-21 12:52:18

Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

#19 2023-01-21 13:07:25

Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

#20 2023-04-23 06:51:12

Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

#21 2023-04-23 16:09:17

Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

#22 2023-04-23 16:46:36

Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

#23 2023-04-23 17:52:01

Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Liquid Oxidizer on Mars vs free Oxygen

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