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For SpaceNut re your post about heating oil in Void's topic....
#62 Today 20:55:09
You really took me back in memory, with your post #62 .... In ca 1952, our family lived in a farm house out in the middle of the country. There was a coal furnace in the basement, and occasionally Dad loaded it with coal. What I remember better was the Franklin Stove they installed in the (huge) kitchen. The family gathered around that stove before turning into ice cold beds in the winter.
I did a quick Google search to refresh my memory of oil furnaces, which we had at several homes later on. Those did not operate without electricity, unlike the coal furnace, which powered itself due to the flue draft.
Your suggestion of cutting back the scope of the energy storage system to two weeks is understandable but it misses the mark I am trying to set.
The proposal on offer is to bury a thermal energy storage pod under the surface of the property of a private dwelling, and to size the repository to deliver heat for an entire winter. At this point, we do not have any idea how large such a repository would be, nor do we have more than preliminary ideas what the energy storage media might be. This forum contains posts by Calliban and others about thermal energy storage.
If you give up too soon, nothing new is accomplished, and all you have is same-old/same-old solutions to consider.
Your figures on the amount of oil needed for a winter would definitely be a starting point. Your observation about using diesel as a backup for regular heating oil is new to me and it might be appreciated by other readers as well.
In a power outage situation, oil could heat a boiler to drive a small steam engine to drive a small generator, which would be sized to operate the furnace.
The store of oil needs to include that part of the challenge.
Update a bit later .... The output of the small steam engine is low energy steam .... that is perfect to route through standard steam radiators to contribute to warming the house.
Update later yet .... vegetable oil, unlike fossil deposit sourced ancient oil, is a renewable resource.
A home heating system designed to handle an entire winter based upon a stash of vegetable oil is completely feasible.
The issue at hand is the inability of many citizens to amass the funds to fill the oil tank before winter. It is unfortunate this is the case, but that is reality.
In the real Universe, wealthy individuals band together to fund repositories of commodities, and these are dispensed to citizens in little affordable chunks, based (often) on monthly income.
In these cases, budget planning is provided by the wealthy individuals who (together) provide a buffer for those who cannot budget for themselves.
To become wealthy yourself, you would want to band together with others to create a constant flow of commodities to customers who pay by the month, in return for the small payments they may be able to make.
It is worth remembering that on Mars, ** every ** citizen is going to be engaged in the life-and-death sol-to-sol never-ending effort to keep the lights on, the air clean and warm, and fresh clean water in the supply pipes.
We are not too far from that situation on Earth.
Update next day.... vegetable oil appears to be a viable/feasible/practical substitute for fossil-sourced home heating oil.
If you are inspired to support the present initiative, please see if you can figure out how much vegetable oil (take soy bean oil as a model) might be able to sustain a home in New Hampshire for a winter. Include both power and heating in your projection. The power is needed (at a minimum) to power the furnace and fans to move hot air, so a small steam engine driving a generator would appear to be a reasonable addition to the mix. The output from the steam engine can be fed into steam radiators, so the thermal energy can be thoroughly rung out before the water is returned to the steam engine for another round.
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Your reminiscing of the days of old is just what the other topic needs as it reminds everyone that high tech is not needed.
Step one identifies the day-to-day quantity and then scale up to fore fill the duration. Knowing that anything that requires power is an issue if you make use of those higher tech electrical items that one uses now to control many functions.
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For SpaceNut re six month's worth of soybean oil for heating, power and emergency food supply for a household...
In other topics we've been looking at what it would take to fill a reservoir under a typical home basement with soybean oil to cover all heating and power needs for a typical household for six months.
The fact that soybean oil is edible (in the form before it is converted to soydiesel) is a bonus. If the oil does not need to be converted to diesel for home heating, then it will remain edible and the cost will be less.
If you have time and the subject is of interest, please try to compute the number of gallons of soybean oil you would need to secure the home for six months.
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For SpaceNut re underground storage of home heating oil...
I asked Google for help, and it found a ** lot ** of snippets ... in particular, I noticed warnings about leaks...
Leaks are very rare, but the are a problem if they occur. A solution might be to build an underground storage facility as a subbasement with water impermeable walls, where a fuel tank would reside on pillars, so that any leaks could be found and corrected quickly (and hopefully easily).
Seasonal Holidays 2022
how does the energy value of soybean oil compare to home heating oil from underground reservoirs
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About 9,000,000 results (0.77 seconds)Full article: Soybean-Derived Biofuels and Home Heating Fuelshttps://www.tandfonline.com › ... › Volume 41, Issue 11
by GW MUSHRUSH · 2006 · Cited by 8 — Home fuel oil storage tanks practically always contain some bottom water. This water environment has a pH value that factors into heating fuel stability.
People also ask
Which fuel has the highest energy density?
How does the energy of natural gas compare to the energy of oil?
Which fuel has the highest BTU output by volume?
What is the heating value of fuel oil?
FeedbackAlternative Fuels Data Center Fuel Properties Comparisonhttps://afdc.energy.gov › files › publication › fuel...
by N Gas — Energy. Comparison [2]. 1 gallon of gasoline has. 97%–100% of the energy in 1. GGE. Standard fuel is 90% gasoline, 10% ethanol. 1 gallon of diesel has.
3 pagesAbove Vs. Below Ground Oil Tanks - Tevis Energyhttps://www.tevisenergy.com › Blog
Jul 26, 2021 — Heating Oil Tank Capacity Underground oil tanks usually have a larger capacity than aboveground tanks. The standard residential aboveground ...
Missing: soybean | Must include: soybeanThe Complete Guide to Heating Oil or Heating Oil 101 | Moyerhttps://emoyer.com › the-complete-guide-to-heating-oil...
Nov 13, 2022 — When compared to natural gas heat, oil heat provides 35% more heat per gallon. · Heating oil burns hotter, so it heats your home faster. · Newer, ...facts about home heating oil Archives - Santa Energyhttps://www.santaenergy.com › tag › facts-about-home-...
Old heating oil tanks are prone to breaking down because of oxidation and ... But, the average cost to remove and replace an underground oil tank is $4,500, ...Bulletin No. 95-1B__rev6_2017.pmd - NJ.govhttps://www.nj.gov › publications › pdf_bulletins
Residential Heating Oil Tanks (no limit); and ... that do not want the liability that these underground heating oil tanks may pose whether.
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Missing: energy soybeanUnderground Heating Oil Tank - Marlborough-ma.govhttps://www.marlborough-ma.gov › files › underg...
f your home heating oil storage tank is ... Many underground home heating oil tanks are the ... price are the cost of a replacement tank, sampling and.alaska heating oil tankshttps://dec.alaska.gov › media › hhot-guide
The value of your home can be significantly reduced by a leaking tank. ... O avoid the liability of a leaking tank, underground heating oil tank systems ...
31 pages
Missing: energy soybeanUnderground Home Heating Oil Tanks - A Citizens Guidehttps://www.mecknc.gov › GWS › Pages › HeatingOil
There are two basic types of home heating oil tanks, above ground storage tanks (AST) and underground storage tanks (UST). AST's are visible and when a leak ...
Missing: soybean | Must include: soybeanSTORAGEhttps://phillipsoilandgas.com › index.php › view
study, the chance of a leak from an underground oil tank is less than one-quarter of 1%.* The ... leaks, “often these heating oil tanks do not impact.
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For SpaceNut ....
If you were starting a furnace replacement project from scratch, a furnace capable of burning vegetable oil would seem to be worth investigating.
An earlier search of the Internet revealed that special provisions are needed for preparing oil for combustion in a furnace, and that there may be special issues or concerns when burning vegetable oil as compared to home heating oil that comes from a refinery where it is filtered to the consistency needed for home service.
In the scenario under consideration in another topic, storage of vegetable oil in sufficient quantity to heat a home for an entire winter is under consideration.
It should be possible to estimate the quantity of vegetable oil that would be needed for a home for a six month season, and thus to compute the storage requirements. Just 100 years ago, it was not uncommon to lay up sufficient fire wood to last a winter, and I understand that in Alaska, that is still a common practice. In these more advanced times, the possibility exists to lay up a winter's supply of heating oil and the small extra that might be needed to power the furnace when utility power is out.
it should be possible to compute the cost of the entire package.
Cost of the fuel is a separate issue ... if soy beans are grown for a large market, economies of scale should reduce the cost of each barrel of oil produced.
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For SpaceNut re helping to develop a framework for a project ....
Because you are the first person on Earth to be considered to test the hypothesis of using Soy Bean oil (or similar vegetable oil) to sustain a normal/typical home for a winter heating season, I am hoping you will find time to make some estimates of what would be required.
If you have records of oil consumption vs weather conditions from times when the furnace was working, those could be fed into computations of what it would take to match the ground sourced oil with freshly grown and harvested vegetable oil.
The present cost of vegetable oil for cooking is interesting but it should NOT be considered to be the actual cost of vegetable oil grown for heating. The present cost of vegetable oil for cooking can be used to obtain an outer estimate of cost for a test home.
The costs of such a test home would be borne by a research consortium. The equipment to be used for a test of the concept, as well as any additions to the home that might be needed for storing vegetable oil would all be funded by the (hypothetical) consortium.
For planning a test project, it would be helpful for the funder to know the likely cost of home improvements that would be needed.
There are already potential buyers of such a system. These individuals are wealthy enough to pay for the entire system and a year's supply of fuel without blinking. In order for that market to open, it would be necessary to demonstrate the practicality of the concept with a Real Universe test case.
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This post is for Void to prevent overwriting your username in the new Pond topic.
Thank you for your thoughtful post! A reminder about UV is timely and most definitely helpful.
My hope is that the topic will attract more such thoughtful and helpful posts, so that it will become a guide for a team planning an experimental pond for Mars.
Everything you have shown us so far about sea grass seems quite encouraging to me.
The critical element of the concept is to keep the temperature of the water between 0 degrees Celsius and 10 degrees Celsius, by adding the amount of thermal energy needed to compensate for any/all losses to the regolith and atmosphere of Mars.
Losses to the regolith can be reduced by choosing a liner for the bottom of the pond that resists flows of thermal energy.
At this point, I am reminded that Calliban has often spoken of rock being a poor conductor of thermal energy so there might be a practical way to enlist the regolith of Mars itself to help with reduction of heat flow.
For Void ... please do NOT reply here ... Instead, please continue adding your insights and Internet discoveries to the Pond topic as you may be inspired.
We (the forum) need to attract persons with relevant knowledge and experience, and an interest in the Mars Pond project.
It seems clear to me that there is a limit to how far our existing members can take the topic, because at some point the lack of knowledge leads to hand waving.
I am most definitely interested in keeping hand waving OUT of the Pond topic.
On the ** other ** hand, every member in our membership of over 1000 persons is welcome to contribute links to relevant articles or web sites.
The creation of a successful sea grass pond on Mars does NOT require the creative thinking for which NewMars is famous. It ** does ** require the kind of dedication and discipline that a PhD paper would demonstrate. There is most ** definitely ** a PhD paper about a pond on Mars waiting for someone in years ahead. The NewMars forum is in a position to give that author a running start.
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No worries about voids post covering mine as the content is there for the reader.
Speaking of temperatures as last week we saw temps with near constant rain of 60 F with today finally dropping back down to a normal winter with snow falling. As of the time I got home from work I had possibly 2 inches of that white wet stuff. It just means I have another chore to add to the already planned.
As for plant life to fuels alcohols may be the quickest for all but it does carry its own set of issues.
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For SpaceNut ....
We have an application for membership.
Please note that the applicant is interested in using the forum structure for a high level interaction with peers.
It has been a while since we've had activity on that level. Please review the application, and also, please think about the tone you would like to put in place if this inquiry develops into a professional level discussion.
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Some of these are looking for ways to hack into the site so we will tread with caution.
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For SpaceNut re application for membership .... You might have missed the application ... please go back a post in the Recruiting topic to find it.
Please look at the gent's web site.
I've invited the gent to look at NewMars ... it may not be the kind of environment where he would feel comfortable.
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For SpaceNut ... thanks for taking a look at the Australian gent's application!
I received your Vote to Proceed ....
I'm going to use my discretion .... We've brought in five people with high hopes, and none have become active members.
On the other hand, Steve Stewart came back after years away from the forum, and ** he ** is contributing at a high level!
With your approval in hand, I'll attempt to find out how this gent would like to use the site.
One thing I will ask is whether he would be willing to create animation for RobertDyck's Large ship. That would be a worthy addition to the Large Ship topic, which has been hanging in suspension since last year.
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For SpaceNut .... this post is about recruiting, but Housekeeping seems like a better fit....
The purpose of this post is simply to let you know I have made a couple of Hail Mary passes into the Wild Blue Yonder, to attempt to bring specialized skills, talents and interests into the Forum mix. I'm not expecting anything, but on the other hand, one of these note-in-a-bottle outreach attempts might land in the hands of someone who would like to investigate further.
With that in mind, I have written to a non-profit foundation to offer My Hacienda as a way to assemble thousands of people to invest time and energy in working out how to build one of the specializations on Mars (but more importantly, on Earth first).
In the letter to that non-profit, I included mention of the Vegetable Oil Home Heating concept.
You know this, but for someone reading this post out of sequence, the concept is to find a customer with deep pockets who would like to heat a home with vegetable upgraded to biodiesel, for a period of six months, with provision for occasional supply of electric power when utility power fails.
I am estimating the budget for this project at one million USD, but the actual cost of equipment, processing and human services might be less.
In addition, I wrote a contact form inquiry of a major supplier of peanuts to see if there might be some interest in taking a look at the home heating market.
Something I learned while doing research recently, is that Mexico grows peanuts but they are considered less agreeable than US peanuts for consumption as food. I bring this up because inedible peanuts would be ideal for home heating oil production, since the objection of taking food out of circulation would be slightly mollified. I'm sure it will never go away completely.
The solution is to grow enough vegetable material to feed the population AND to provide home heating.
I suppose it is conceivable that agriculture could produce enough oil to replace diesel for transportation, and for food ** and ** for heating, but ** that ** would require desalination on a large scale. it could happen, but presently seems unlikely.
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For SpaceNut ..... this post is about the home heating project, but I'll use Housekeeping to inform you ...
I ** just ** sent an email as part of ongoing correspondence with a gent who lives in Alaska and makes a living sailing in the open ocean between island chains there, as well as by caring for property during the winter, when the owners are down South.
FYI ... the gent recommends the movie "Goodby Oppy" which I've heard about but not yet seen.
I wrote to ask if the gent knows a wealthy person (home or small business) who might be interested in converting from fossil fuel to all-vegetable fuel for heating during the Alaskan winters. I estimated the project cost at $1,000,000, so if there is someone who is interested, they'll have a reasonable idea of the initial cost.
The first test system will cost more than later ones, because so much has to be done for the first time.
***
Void recently tossed out the suggestion to consider growing crops in sea water, and a Dutch farmer has been systematically experimenting with (and documenting) trying to grow traditional plants in sea water.
In connection with the home heating initiative, and specifically peanuts, I'm wondering if there might be a variety of peanut that would grow in sea water.
If such a plant is possible, then all the salt water marshland around the world that we have now and will have in increasing abundance soon might be adapted to growing home heating oil supply plants.
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For SpaceNut re new member application....
Thank you (again) for approving the new member application!
Please see the Recruiting topic for a post showing correspondence with Mr ? Dr Ong ...
I'd like to make clear that any Administrator can give this candidate an account.
There are two Administrators (Senior and Junior) and two Moderators (Senior and Junior).
I have explained why I am holding off on granting an ID to this candidate.
I will now attempt to deliver the email from the candidate to the Terraforming topic.
Clearly this candidate has the vision and communications skills to make major contributions to this forum.
I am looking for additional qualifications and I have seen no evidence of them to this point.
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SearchTerm:Imgur technique
This post is offered as a complement to the excellent imgur tutorial by Steve Stewart.
Today I discovered a nice feature that applies if you have multiple images to link to NewMars.
The upload today was of 7 images for Mr ? Dr ? Ong...
What I discovered is that after the first image is linked, there appear large arrows at right and left of the image.
These allow you to advance to the next image and click the BBCode button.
This feature may have been present before this, but since i usually only upload one image at a time, I'd not seen it.
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For SpaceNut .... this post is for the record ... It was created for the new Asteroid Hole on Mars topic, but it ended up containing a discussion of policy...
For Calliban re #6
Thanks for taking time to evaluate the post by the candidate for membership in the forum.
Since you are one of the few current (active) members who has management experience, I would appreciate your evaluation of this candidate to become a member of this forum. You joined at a time when anyone could register without restriction.
We are fortunate you did so!
However, we have 18375 spammer ID's in our display case because at least that many free registrations were NOT productive.
Now we have a mechanism in place to grant admission.
The first five candidates all showed promise, and indeed, they remain enrolled.
However, for whatever reason, they have not contributed to the ongoing life of the forum.
The forum has a 20+ year history, and over a thousand members who have posted at least once.
We have many members who have posted over 1000 times.
What I'm looking for is some sign that applicants for participation in this forum have made a minimal effort to study the accumulated treasure trove of posts.
There are some clinkers in the mix of 200,000+ posts. I understand that.
However, a few members have produced consistently high quality posts which could (potentially) be a source of inspiration to future readers.
A "feature" of a forum like this one is that it provides a place for individuals to "publish" their ideas on the Internet with a decent chance they will be read by at least one person and perhaps by two.
This leads to the possibility that a person will join the forum to post their ideas without regard to anyone else, and without reading the work of anyone else.
SpaceNut has delegated to me the opportunity (and the responsibility) to admit new members.
I have attempted to learn from the first five admissions .... These were all folks who have great potential in their respective disciplines, but the missing element is their having time to contribute to the forum at some level.
From your perspective as a working manager of technical people, I am hoping you will provide me such guidance as you think appropriate for this situation.
We are not "hiring" an employee, but we are admitting a volunteer to a non-profit organization.
I am attempting to improve my performance by admitting persons who are generally regarded as helpful, as well as competent and possibly even creative.
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For Calliban re #6
Thanks for taking time to evaluate the post by the candidate for membership in the forum.
Since you are one of the few current (active) members who has management experience, I would appreciate your evaluation of this candidate to become a member of this forum. You joined at a time when anyone could register without restriction.
We are fortunate you did so!
However, we have 18375 spammer ID's in our display case because at least that many free registrations were NOT productive.
Now we have a mechanism in place to grant admission.
The first five candidates all showed promise, and indeed, they remain enrolled.
However, for whatever reason, they have not contributed to the ongoing life of the forum.
The forum has a 20+ year history, and over a thousand members who have posted at least once.
We have many members who have posted over 1000 times.
What I'm looking for is some sign that applicants for participation in this forum have made a minimal effort to study the accumulated treasure trove of posts.
There are some clinkers in the mix of 200,000+ posts. I understand that.
However, a few members have produced consistently high quality posts which could (potentially) be a source of inspiration to future readers.
A "feature" of a forum like this one is that it provides a place for individuals to "publish" their ideas on the Internet with a decent chance they will be read by at least one person and perhaps by two.
This leads to the possibility that a person will join the forum to post their ideas without regard to anyone else, and without reading the work of anyone else.
SpaceNut has delegated to me the opportunity (and the responsibility) to admit new members.
I have attempted to learn from the first five admissions .... These were all folks who have great potential in their respective disciplines, but the missing element is their having time to contribute to the forum at some level.
From your perspective as a working manager of technical people, I am hoping you will provide me such guidance as you think appropriate for this situation.
We are not "hiring" an employee, but we are admitting a volunteer to a non-profit organization.
I am attempting to improve my performance by admitting persons who are generally regarded as helpful, as well as competent and possibly even creative.
(th)
TH, from what I can deduce from the correspondance that was posted, David is a Mars Society member. He has taken the time to approach you with an interesting idea. I think he would make a useful addition to our forum.
From what I understand, open access to this forum was suspended because it was bombarded by spammers who had no interest in contributing. There never has been a problem with having too many contributors who actually wanted to contribute to topics. If someone wishes to contribute and has a real idea, I don't think we need any special vetting. Some members here are engineers and technicians, others are eagre amateurs. Interesting ideas have come from all quarters. If someone is a Mars Society member, then that alone demonstrates sufficient commitment for a pkace on this forum.
Last edited by Calliban (2023-01-10 09:06:17)
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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For Calliban re #2718
Your argument in favor of inviting David Ong into the forum is persuasive.
I have decided to take a chance.
Risk analysis:
Upside... significant
Downside...
No participation after initial flurry
Explanation:
I have accepted responsibility for bringing five new members into the forum, and while each is highly qualified and has significant upside potential, their life situations have called them away from the forum.
My performance rating at this point is five attempts and zero successful admissions.
I am not looking for Void or SpaceNut level participation.
The occasional posts by Steve Steward are well thought out, interesting and often helpful.
I'll notify Dr ? Mr ? Ong .... the next available TestID is in line for a new owner.
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This post is by NewMarsMember using the new PhotonBytes ID ....
The password change feature did not work for David Ong, so I'm testing a temporary password.
If this post succeeds, I'll notify Mr. Ong by email, and with any luck he'll be able to log in over the next day or so.
(th)
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For all ... please welcome PhotonBytes.
More importantly, please see what ** you ** can do to make his venture into this tiny part of the Mars Society infrastructure worth while.
PhotonBytes is here by accident ... he was looking for a pathway to contact Dr. Zubrin, and we are not that.
However, we ** do ** have a 20+ year history, with many useful posts, and many more that are interesting even if they are not useful
We have an opportunity to find out what someone in the early part of his career is trying to do, then see if there is anything ** we ** can do to help.
(th)
Recruiting High Value members for NewMars.com/forums, in association with the Mars Society
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PhotonByte can log in with that password and then go to the user profile to change the password to whatever is wanted to ensure that no one else will know it.
Yes, hopefully we will gain a member that will remain active after the initial exposure.
I did see that I received an outreach emailer for the forum this morning so it might be going into the trash set up for other email users.
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For SpaceNut .... This is a Preview of Coming Attractions!
PhotonBytes sent an email to NewMarsMember, indicating that he is thinking about creating a new topic about the space plane concept he is working on.
Naturally, this will be a topic of great interest to some members of the forum, and of general interest to everyone.
The technical problems are exceeded only by the social ones, for a challenge of this magnitude.
The members of this forum will (hopefully) have an opportunity to provide encouragement, and perhaps an exposure opportunity.
Funding in the millions of (monetary units) will be required, so hopefully a topic about the project will enhance prospects to win supporters and (hopefully) investors.
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If it's a taxi to orbit and back it would fall in the human folder, between planets inter planetary and for use on mars its world fall in the planetary folder topic groupings.
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For SpaceNut .... please choose one or the other ....
Large Ship is in Interplanetary Transportation
A space plane like the X37B does ** not ** carry humans.
The Shuttle ** did ** carry humans
The Buran did ** not ** carry humans...
I would like to encourage you to make life easier for PhotonBytes, by giving him clear direction instead of a choice.
It's hard enough trying to learn how to work with FluxBB and with the group.
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