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#1 2021-12-12 11:19:03

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 4,796

Hyperloops, HighSpeed rail, Maglevs, Capsule Pipelines for Mars.

If you have a space colony build up with more and more people to sizes of villages or towns there could also be a possiblity to use already existing Lava Tubes and Caves for Low Tech transport using basic Trains, one could also look at a local cablecar system between two small space villages or towns, however going out into the cosmic frontier of the planet or space outback, people will need another vehicle or craft we need other wheeled vehicles as discussed in the Nuclear Car or Japanese 'Lunar Cruiser'. Any number of type of combustion engine might be used on Mars or Titan but more options come with a Train with the Lower gravity you might have a Hybrid system of Batteries used to power Train or part of system for powering other things like life support not directly related to movement of the vehicle. As Nuclear Power gets smaller and newer designs arrive it might also be possible economically to have nuclear power pushing the trains on railways, most of France's energy itself comes from Nuclear power so all its trains mostly draw their electricity from the French nuclear powered national grid. Perhaps on Mars or the Moon you could have some system that starts with elevators, conveyor belt robotic track system or robotic escalator truss system to transport items and otrher robots and people and it finally ends up with subway or some undergroudn tunnel system. Some have discussed firing payloads into Low Orbit on the Moon and Mars using some kind of high speed rail system, perhaps the Railgun to orbit would fit into the 'Interplanetary transportation' of the new mars forum.

Transport on Mars has been discussed many times in the past here.
Here are some other newmars threads on the subject, Nuclear Transportation? http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3495
other ways to Low Lunar Orbit or Low Mars Orbit?  'Mountain launch tracks revisited, - Alternative to fuelled rocket boosters.' http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2615 , Nukemobiles on Mars http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7358 ,  Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires? http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3511 'Hyperloop, Earth/Mars' http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7571 'Martian Transportation Infrastructure' http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7038 A previous topic on tunnels and trains inside caves and tubes http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9843Tunnel Transportation on Earth, Mars or Luna


Let this be a discussion of Space Train Overground or Space Subway Underground systems or any type of Trains for the Moon, Titan, Europa and Mars? At one type these types of tube system or trains were once thought to be soemthing of science fiction, now many have become reality. Mars will have requirments Food management, the flows and recyclying of water inside Biodomes and outside duing expedition, there will be needs of energy supply and transport on Mars will sometimes be very different to on Earth, engines could be different than on Earth maybe some LOX/Methane hopper or a NTR-CO2 hoppers, the Moon seems to lack resources, while Europa and Titan might have lots and lots of HydroCarbons . The Pneumatic tubes have bveen used in stores on Earth, to transport cash or capsule pipelines used in types of postal service, they are also known as pneumatic tube transport, these systems send cylindrical containers through networks of tubes by compressed air or by partial vacuum, this system can also be used for transporting solid objects. On Earth Engineers at EPFL’s DESL lab, working in association with EPFL spin-off Swisspod, have built a Hyperloop test track on the Lausanne campus in Switzerland.  https://lenews.ch/2021/08/06/europes-fi … itzerland/ In 2007, a Euroduplex TGV train broke a record of 574.8 km/h (357.2 mph), making it the fastest conventional wheeled train in the world.  https://web.archive.org/web/20110504144 … 42,00.html Also low vacuum tube maglev trains took place in the Shanxi city of Datong http://www.ecns.cn/news/2021-06-04/deta … 1055.shtml At the early stages of colonizationj perhaps the traintracks can double to transport fuel, epople perhaps, double as electric transmission lines, until other tracks and power routes and people routes are laid down.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-12-12 11:21:20)

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#2 2022-05-08 05:03:16

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 4,796

Re: Hyperloops, HighSpeed rail, Maglevs, Capsule Pipelines for Mars.

Physical Transportation across Mars and Moon?

Tunnel engineers excited by boring Moon colonies
Lunar tunnel engineers excited by boring Moon colonies
https://phys.org/news/2019-05-lunar-tun … onies.html

There may be 1,000 people living in outer space by 2050 -- either in orbit or on the Moon -- according to the American United Launch Alliance,
https://www.rfi.fr/en/contenu/20190510- … n-colonies
which estimates this initial space exploration will cost 2.7 trillion dollars.


Lunar mass driver: Why we should build a space gun on the Moon
https://www.spaceanswers.com/futuretech … -the-moon/

A lunar mass driver is basically a long tube along which a payload is accelerated using electromagnets. Rather than relying on expendable fuel like rocket propellant, a mass driver on the Moon could run on solar power. The idea of a mass driver is that when a payload is accelerated to a speed greater than the escape velocity of the Moon (2.4 kilometres or 1.5 miles per second), it will be released from the tube and travel into lunar orbit, where it can be picked up by a larger cargo spacecraft for use in space or transportation to Earth. Rather than sending large payloads, a lunar mass driver will launch multiple small payloads, possibly several per second depending on its design.

These proposals have been considered for use on Earth, but the lower gravity and lack of atmosphere on the Moon makes it a much more desirable location. Creating a mass driver on Earth that could propel a payload into orbit around our planet would be incredibly difficult. To reach and maintain low Earth orbit, for example, a spacecraft or payload needs to have a velocity of about 7.8 kilometres (4.8 miles) per second, or 28,000 kilometres (17,400 miles) per hour, and it would also have to contend with the Earth’s atmosphere and its relatively strong gravitational pull. By comparison, the Moon has no atmosphere and much lower gravity, meaning a payload can more easily be accelerated to the speed required to escape the Moon.

A lunar mass driver is, of course, something very much still in a concept stage. Few actual experiments have been carried out on the possibility of building any sort of mass driver, but if we are to one day colonise the Moon building such a structure could be imperative for the transportation of useful material to Earth.

Lunar Model Railroad

A kids imagination?
1960s and 70s Drews Basement
Andrew LePage - Physicist
https://www.drewexmachina.com/2015/02/0 … 4e622bf954

'In addition to the usual array of books on various aspects of model railroading, my father also frequently picked up issues of popular magazines on the topic from local newsstands that were filled with projects and inspiration. An article from one of those magazines caught my attention and has stuck with me to this day. In the April 1978 issue of Model Railroader was a four-page article titled “A Lunar Railroad You Can Model”. While the article was meant to be an April Fool’s joke that took advantage of interest in space colonization that had captured the popular imagination at the time, the idea of a lunar model railroad really caught my attention since it combined my interest in model railroading and my far greater interest in space exploration.'

Tunnels and Moon Colonies:
https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/118 … 0a6f09bc3f

Alta Velocidad Española translates to "Spanish High Speed", but the initials are also a play on the word ave, meaning "bird". Too costly and too many political issues, even back down on Earth, Zaragoza–Huesca–Spain French border along Central-Pyrenees corridor? https://ejatlas.org/conflict/trans-pyre … ain-france

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#3 2022-05-08 19:22:33

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 27,185

Re: Hyperloops, HighSpeed rail, Maglevs, Capsule Pipelines for Mars.

One could hope that the ULA is right with the target date with the total people which is believed to be possible by then but they need to do their part to lower cost as a providers.

The lunar tunnels area must if we plan to stay more than a week or two.

But the harsh conditions on the surface of the Moon mean that, once up there, humans need to be shielded from radiation and freezing temperatures in structures which maintain atmospheric pressure in a vacuum.

They also need protection from meteorite strikes.

"Imagine something the size of my fist as a piece of rock coming at 10-12 kilometres (6-7 miles) per second, it can hit anything and would immediately destroy it," Rostami said at the meeting in southern Italy.

the slight issue is

With a four-metre diameter machine needing some 2,000 kilowatts of energy, experts are debating whether it is possible to use small nuclear power plants to fuel a lunar version

the older Hyperloop, Earth/Mars

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#4 2022-07-06 09:37:04

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 4,796

Re: Hyperloops, HighSpeed rail, Maglevs, Capsule Pipelines for Mars.

Europe wants a high-speed rail network to replace airplanes
https://panhandle.newschannelnebraska.c … -airplanes
Breakfast in Paris, lunch in Frankfurt and dinner in Vienna -- all without the hassle and frustration of flying.

Imagine a network of modern, super-fast and comfortable trains hurtling between every major city in the European Union, providing a reliable, comfortable and sustainable alternative to air travel.

That was the vision outlined by rail industry leaders in Lyon, France, on June 29, amid ambitious European plans to double high-speed rail use by 2030 and triple current levels by 2050.

Only a massive -- and accelerated -- expansion of the high-speed network can achieve these hugely ambitious targets, but are they a realistic and affordable proposition?

Unlike many parts of the world, Europe already has thousands of kilometers of dedicated high-speed railway.

France's world-famous TGVs, Germany's ICE and Spain's AVE have transformed rail travel over the last 40 years, but they remain largely focused on domestic markets.

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#5 2022-07-06 12:18:59

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,336

Re: Hyperloops, HighSpeed rail, Maglevs, Capsule Pipelines for Mars.

MarsB4Moon, is this not exactly what exists already?  My wife and I got a train from Gravesend in SE England, all the way to Barcelona.  It was high speed and very comfortable and powered by nuclear electricity.

This sort of rail based electric transportation system is a far more achievable vision of the future than attempting to replicate automobile and truck culture using batteries.  We know that it will work because it works already.  But it has the limitation of only being suited to transportation between specific nodes.  We could build a society that works this way.  Long-distance rail transportation between nodes and short distance BEV transportation between nodes and the surrounding area.  It just isn't practical to expect BEVs to do everything that ICE vehicles do today.  The limited energy density makes them an unworkable solution for anything other than short range vehicles.  But a vehicle that can shift a load from a rail depot to a customer 30 miles away can be powered by battery, or compressed air or even stored heat.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-07-06 12:31:56)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#6 2022-07-06 13:05:42

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 6,370

Re: Hyperloops, HighSpeed rail, Maglevs, Capsule Pipelines for Mars.

Calliban,

Since trains already exist and they work so well, they're not being considered as potential solutions.  Everything has to be "new" and "magical" and "battery-powered", or it's not an option.  The end goal here is to spend a bunch of money and consume increasing quantities of scarce hydrocarbon energy on unworkable solutions.  It's obvious from what they're doing.  Everything they've come up with is grossly infeasible at a global scale.  Engineers know how to calculate these things, but the managers aren't paying attention to the bottom line because this isn't about transforming the existing infrastructure in a practical manner.  Ideology-based thinking, rather than adherence to scientific principles, has taken over.

I don't care about taking a train or bus versus driving myself, but nobody is actually building new ones here in America.  They talk about it, they spend a bunch of money on it, and nothing ever gets built.  "Light rail" is almost a dirty word here in Texas and in California as a result.

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#7 2023-01-04 16:37:00

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,336

Re: Hyperloops, HighSpeed rail, Maglevs, Capsule Pipelines for Mars.

A discussion on Hyperloop by physicist Sabine Hossenfelder.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HYrO03vqm4Q

I always find her podcasts to be excellent and informative.  She is also quite hot.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-01-04 16:38:06)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#8 2023-01-04 20:31:06

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,757

Re: Hyperloops, HighSpeed rail, Maglevs, Capsule Pipelines for Mars.

For Calliban re Sabine Hossenfelder's video!

thank you for providing this link.  This is a solid overview of the field of hyperloop development, with plenty of explanation of the daunting challenges faced by engineers who decide to enlist to work the problem.

The vibration reported for the 100 mph test run was a surprise to me, because I'd not heard of that particular problem before.

One thing that I did find surprising is the (apparent) lack of awareness of the well-known magnetic lift effect that allows a rotating permanent magnet to lift above an aluminum plate.

However, instability of magnetic lift systems has been recognized as a problem since Henry Holm and his students worked the problem at MIT, decades ago.

It seems to me (as a first impression) that the students in Dr. Hossenfelder's classes will be well prepared for their careers!

(th)

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