Pond Life to be Created on Mars by Humans - NO ICE

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-03 12:40:42

This new topic departs a bit from the original concept for the Index Level "Life on Mars"

In the early days, this Index Level appears to have been set up to consider only life (past or present) that might exist on Mars.

However, as humans continue their activities in exploration of Mars, inevitably Earth life is going to show up there.

This new topic is offered in response to the work of Void, who has indicated preference for study of possibilities instead of practical experiment.

This topic is offered for those who might wish to design an experiment to see if Earth Sea Grass can live in a pond on the surface of Mars.

This concept is NOT intended to contemplate the presence of ice in the pond.

Ice on ponds seems to be a favorite distraction for NewMars members.

Please keep ice out of this topic.

Ice is NOT welcome in this topic.

What I am hoping to see over time is prediction of the conditions that will exist for sea grass in a pond of lightly salted water that is kept within the temperature range of 0 degrees Celsius and 10 degrees Celsius, and pressure just slightly above that of the atmosphere of Mars at the densest locations.

In other topics, Void has commented upon the potential impact of solar UV radiation, and other kinds of radiation (solar and cosmic) may have an impact on sea grass in the proposed pond environment.

There would seem to be no doubt that such a pond is possible on Mars. What is NOT clear is whether sea grass would thrive or expire in the conditions described.

I am hoping this topic will attract contributions that would be useful to a researcher assisting a mission planner.

The next Mars launch window is in 2024. A fully equipped sea grass pond could be included in a flight manifest.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-03 12:43:46

https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/s … st29jun_1m

Global Surveyor topography data. A simple version of the model is the basis for daily martian weather forecasts at the Ames Mars Today web site.
"I used the model to look for regions that meet the minimum requirements for liquid water -- above the triple point and below the boiling point," explained Haberle. "According to the model, the highest surface pressure, 12.4 millibars, occurs at the bottom of the Hellas Basin (a low-lying area created by an ancient asteroid strike). The problem is that the boiling temperature there is only +10 °C. It can't get very hot or the water will boil away."
Evaporation of water in contact with Mars' dry atmosphere is also a problem, says Haberle. "Liquid water can be stable against freezing and stable against boiling, but unstable with respect to evaporation. The situation is analogous to Earth's oceans. Liquid water on the surface does not freeze ... or boil, yet it can evaporate if the atmosphere is not saturated with water vapor. [more information]
"There are 5 five distinct regions where we might sometimes find surface water: in the Amazonis, Chryse and Elysium Planitia, in the Hellas Basin and the Argyre Basin. Together they comprise about 30% of the planet's surface. That's not to say that liquid water really does exist in those places, just that it could."

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-03 21:02:15

Somehow a vapor barrier needs to be created such that the water does not evaporate or sublime away from the ponds surface. There is also the aspect of a liner requirement to keep the water once contained at the top surface from dissolving into the soils of mars at the depths of the pond.
A quick google turns up that mars surface has at its lowest point of Hellas Planitia it can get as high as 1,155 pascals (0.1675 psi). Gee units that equal 11.5487185 millibar give or take so if we want life to be bountiful, we know we want to have even higher levels. Not just water pressure but air pressure with it so as to be able to oxygenate that water and add co2 to give it the needed resources to go with sunlight to be able to get food or life to grow within it.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-03 22:16:37

For SpaceNut re #3 ....

Thanks for adding to this new topic. You are right that a plastic tent over the pond is needed to keep water in the pond, and there is need for a liner for the bottom.

One thing that crept into your post was oxygenation of the water. I'm wondering why you added that?

The plant life that I am going for here is Void's Sea Grass.

Sea Grass presumably consumes CO2 and produces oxygen.

Is there a need for humans to add oxygen to the pond water?

It might make sense to find a way to draw it off instead of adding it.

If you have time, please explain your thinking on that point.

(th)

Void · 2023-01-04 12:22:31

Try this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Juan_Pond
Quote:

Don Juan Pond
Frozen No
Settlements Vanda Station
(14 km to the east)
Don Juan Pond is a small and very shallow hypersaline lake in the western end of Wright Valley (South Fork), Victoria Land, Antarctica, 9 kilometres (5.6 mi) west from Lake Vanda. It is wedged between the Asgard Range to the south and the Dais Range to the north. On the west end is a small tributary and a rock glacier. With a salinity level of 33.8%, Don Juan Pond is the saltiest of the Antarctic lakes.[1][2] This salinity causes significant freezing-point depression, allowing the pond to remain liquid even at temperatures as low as −50 °C (−58 °F).
Don Juan Pond was discovered in 1961 by George H. Meyer. It was named for two helicopter pilots, Lt. Don Roe and Lt. John Hickey, who piloted the helicopter involved with the first field party investigating the pond.[2]

Life
Studies of lifeforms in the hypersaline (and/or brine) water of Don Juan Pond have been ambiguous.[7][8]

It is not covered with (The Sin Word)

It seems unlikely that it can support life for the water being so salty and so cold. That is a bit debatable.

It appears to be fed from an aquifer, and that aquifer water appears to be salty. Not unusual in the polar areas.

Chances for something like that on Mars?

Perhaps this will amuse you: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2334

If there are deep water tables on Mars, then two places where I might expect artesian springs would be the Hellas Depression and the Mariner Rift Valley.

https://astrobiology.nasa.gov/news/larg … e-of-mars/
Quote:

Large Reservoir of Liquid Water Found Deep Below the Surface of Mars
A reservoir of what could be water has been spotted beneath the South Pole of Mars.

Image Quote: orosei4hr-1-e1532469530874.jpg__1240x510_q85_subject_location-350%2C247_subsampling-2.jpg

So, it is possible that this would charge an aquifer that might lead to Hellas.

As for the Mariner Rift Valley, sizable Hydrogen deposits are found in Candor Chaos of the Mariner Rift Valley.

I consider one possibility for the existence of such Hydrogen to be intense brine upwelling from cracks in the crust at the rift valley.

If it were essentially a dirty bumpy salt flat into which ground water percolates, then essentially it would be an artesian well(s), or if you like Cryovolcano. Cryovolcanic processes are associated with (The Sin Word), so we can say that it may be an artesian fed salt flat, although it is not really flat.

The problems with Don Juan Pond on Mars would be that even if it did not (The Sin Word), it would fill with air borne sediments, and would look like what the Candor Chaos region looks like.

https://www.cnet.com/science/spacecraft … be%20water.

Quote:

Large Reservoir of Liquid Water Found Deep Below the Surface of Mars
A reservoir of what could be water has been spotted beneath the South Pole of Mars.

Image Quote: valles-marineris-pillars.jpg?auto=webp&fit=crop&height=675&width=1200

There are often night fogs in the canyon, and in part that may be because of emissions of water vapor from such springs, (Maybe).

So, if this is the case, you may place your vapor barrier over the pond(s), and perhaps accumulate a pool of water, where dust does not choke it. Probably if the water is salt from the spring, then you need to put another "Bubble" in the water, and under the surface of the water of the first vapor barrier. Then if you exclude some of the salt from that secondary bubble, you might make conditions that sea life could grow in.

So, I stayed away from (The Sin Word).

If we discover that there is potential artesian water somewhere, perhaps it would be possible to disrupt (The Sin Word), and create and perpetuate artesian springs.

----

Salt springs in the Arctic:
https://nunatsiaq.com/stories/article/h … gh_arctic/

https://www.space.com/18485-mars-cold-s … -life.html
Quote:

Mars Ripe for 'Cold Springs' Akin to Canadian Arctic
By Elizabeth Howell published November 15, 2012

So, there are chances.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-01-04 12:57:32)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-04 13:01:02

For Void re Post #5

Thank you for adding the news (with links) about a naturally occurring 33% salinity open lake on Earth.

This topic is NOT about extreme conditions at all.

This topic is about something that should be possible on Mars.

The antidote to freezing on Earth is thermal energy.

Mars, on it's own, would suck thermal energy out of a pond, if it were set up in Mars as intended, to host sea grass.

Whatever conditions that sea grass needs to thrive on Mars are in the control of humans, with the single exception of gravity.

If Mars sucks thermal energy out of a sea grass pond, then humans must replenish the thermal energy.

There are a great number of ways to do that. I expect that every single method has been explored (and documented) in this forum.

The facts that are needed, for successful management of a sea grass pond on Mars, are the amount of loss of thermal energy to be expected at various points in the Sol where the pond is located, and the availability of suitable low maintenance energy supply.

A typical solution that might appear in the NewMars archive would be Solar Trough system that uses a small solar panel to drive a pump to move water from the pond through the heating tube at the focus of the solar trough.

The amount of flow of fluid needs to be sufficient to add the amount of thermal energy to the pond to keep it between 0 degrees Celsius, and 10 degrees Celsius, so that the evaporation rate of the water in the pond can be kept as low as possible.

In any case, any water that does evaporate will be collected by the plastic greenhouse tent over head, so that it flows back into the pond.

In this system, there should be NO loss of water from the pond.

The sea grass ** should ** produce oxygen which could (presumably) be harvested.

I don't see why this concept is difficult to understand.

If the concept is difficult to understand, then I must be overlooking something.

There is nothing new in ** that ** so I'm more than happy to see an explanation of what I've overlooked.

however, on the small chance that what I've proposed is realistic and feasible, i'd like to see it develop into a mission for the 2024 launch window.

To save time, I'm recommending that all components of a demonstration pond should be shipped from Earth, so there is no dependency upon Mars for anything except what we know to be present:

1) sunlight
2) gravity
3) Atmosphere

To give mission planners something to work with, I'll suggest 10 Metric tons of mass delivered to the surface, including machinery to unpack and to deploy the pond.

(th)

Void · 2023-01-04 13:08:09

OK, teach us.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-04 13:09:05)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-04 13:31:39

For Void re #7

Thanks for your request ... I asked Google for assistance, and it came back with a large set of suggestions for study, starting with three entire books:

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(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-04 13:33:15

Call for knowledgeable folks to assist with development of a proposal to deliver and operate a small pond to grow sea grass on Mars...

Please contact us using the Recruiting topic as a guide.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-04 20:40:51

So, for the pond to exist we need dimensions so as to get a volume for the mass number needed for the materials to make the fillable Blatter and with that, we then would understand the amount of water to be processed to fill it.
The Blatter will need to be made of material that can be unrolled and filled in the extreme of the mars surface temperatures, be able to take the seasonal sand blasting, and have an idea of the starter crops size to be grown to seed it sufficiently.
Other content is to make it human enterable in space gear, providing a source to climate control, add nutrients ect
Adding Oxygenation means that it will not become a dead pool since the air above the water will be rich but the co2 needs a means to be dissolved into the water along with some oxygen.
Keeping in mind that we are a long way off from having a starship to land on mars and will need to start within the plausible 20 metric Ton payloads that could be achieve in a ship diameter of 10 meters.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-04 20:55:53

For SpaceNut re #10

Thank you for adding to this new topic, and adding several interesting points to consider ....

The pool might be similar to fish ponds created for home owners on Earth. You mentioned a bladder, but that seems to have the disadvantage that it would prevent light from entering the pond. An alternative is to line the bottom of the pool with a membrane (perhaps the same as for a bladder).

A fish pond on Earth is often constructed with a plastic/rubber/similar tough flexible material that can withstand temperature extremes. These ponds are often emptied during winter, but the liner remains pliable and ready for service the following year.

In the case of the test pond on Mars, a thin, flexible dome should be able to withstand the (relatively gentle) winds on Mars, but that too will be determined by experiment.

I still don't understand why you see a need for oxygen to be introduced into the pond. Does sea grass need oxygen? It definitely needs CO2, and Mars has plenty of that. OK ... your persistence inspired me to ask Google ....

Apparently a small starter supply of oxygen is needed, after which the sea grass produces oxygen which it then uses, with some excess left over for humans to enjoy, if they can find a way to extract it.

I'll post a Google search in the next post.

Regarding human access.... the first pond would be totally automated, and there would be no humans on the scene. However, it would make sense to include a maintenance robot in the package, and to train it to perform some repairs while on Earth, while allowing it to be programmed from Earth to deal with unexpected situations.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-04 20:56:48

In response to SpaceNut's insistence that oxygen should be provided to help a pond of sea grass to get going, ...

About 10,200,000 results (0.48 seconds)
Seagrasses are, like all vascular plants, obligate aerobes, which require a continuous supply of oxygen to sustain aerobic metabolism of both above- and below-ground tissues.
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(th)

Void · 2023-01-05 11:03:17

The question of Vascular plants needing Oxygen? I am not sure what the limits are. They may need to absorb Oxygen at times.

In obedience of your stipulation about solid water, I will continue.

If you have an open topped pond of water, it will obey Henry's law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry%27s_law

Whatever the pressure is at the top of the water, will more or less determine how much of a gas can be absorbed in the water. I presume that this supposes a body of water all at the same temperature. I am not an expert.

I think that under certain conditions a cheat might be done where you could compress gasses into the water to dissolve and place that water at the bottom of the pond where the plants might grow. It might hang around there for a bit, unless the water is turning over thermally.

You might try that trick while distilling water. The atmosphere in your dome above the water may be of gasses including water vapors strongly being emitted by the surface conditions of the pond. If you then compressed the gasses in a compressor, and cooled them, you would get liquid water which would be distilled. You could then compress the gasses into the water down by the seagrass. It might work under some instances, but I think you would have to have a pressure in the dome above the pond which was less than our pressure but higher than that of Mars.

So, there may be a path. I don't know how practical.

If you did a double dome, then it would work, as the submerged and water filled dome would be able to keep gasses better dissolved into the water within it.

You may also have to produce a method to protect the seagrass and the dome from UV radiation.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-06 20:03:45)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-06 19:48:16

It's one of the reasons for why a fish tank has a bubbler to keep the water from becoming stagnant.

But back to construction sure a shallow dip or bowl shape would lend to the pond's creation and with a material to prevent puncturing the material of what will hold the water and providing the right size exit for the growth to be brought out through to make us of it. The automation can only go just so far to making it a reality for what we want out of its use.

Since we are trying to use natural lighting that means plastic that is UV resistant as well as clear. It most likely with have a couple of coating layers as protectant from abrasion as well.

https://plasticranger.com/best-uv-resistant-plastics/

Each will standup to these conditions for usually less than a decade of exposure and I know that RobertDyck does has a favorite that will do just that.
Rubbers for a bottom part of the pond still will deteriorate over time.

So, the unit will be collapsed such that you make the location, bring it to it to be rolled out, then filled with the water and other contents as we require for its use.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-06 21:15:55

For SpaceNut re #14 .... Thanks for continuing to advance this topic!

I would like to focus on the research project if possible. The long term use of these ponds is certainly important to think about, but this pond is intended to land in the 2014 Mars Launch cycle, and humans will be nowhere around for many years.

The purpose of the pond is to demonstrate that the theory of Void is valid, that Sea Grass can survive and perhaps even thrive in a purpose-built test pond on Mars. The facility needs to be supported by auxiliary heating subsystems, able to collect solar energy and store it under the pond to help to keep the temperature of the water between 0 degrees Celsius and 10 degrees Celsius.

As a reminder for someone who might be reading this post without having read earlier parts of the topic, the boiling point of water on Mars, at the location where the air pressure is greatest, is given as 10 Degrees Celsius. The proposal for this test pond is to operate without ice on the surface.

***
For SpaceNut ... the pond will produce oxygen, once the sea grass is doing well. However, your suggestion of bubbling gas seems to me perfect, if the gas you decide to bubble is CO2. The sea grass NEEDS CO2 to make cells, and it produces oxygen. For the experiment to succeed, it might even turn out that the experiment computer might need to keep oxygen levels down.

A concern which might well be addressed by some of the books and articles cited in an earlier post is what additional nutrients are needed for success with the sea grass.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-07 17:24:48

To theorize you need mars conditions and that means designing like you are going to be on mars. We already know that it works here on earth so what can you research if you do not do the build for research based on a mars usage for the action of building a pond?

You will not know how to get the water from mars, no low pressure, wicking of cold through conduction, ect....the list is huge for making a design that will function as intended for mars sites.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-07 18:46:01

For SpaceNut re #16

Thanks for your leadership! You've listed some of the challenges facing the team that will design the first test pond for Mars!

My recommendation is to build the pond on Earth and test it in a cold high altitude environment. After working through the challenges there, the entire pond, and all it's parts and pieces can be packaged for shipment, and then for automated deployment and operation.

The ONLY variable that I am aware of that is different between Mars and Earth is gravity, and I'm betting the gravity will be sufficient for the sea grass to thrive.

Even the low light level can be created on Earth, by applying the exact amount of shade that is needed.

Please continue thinking of any other variables that need to be considered.

This topic appears to be off to a solid start!

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-07 19:07:06

Devon Island near winter would be a good practice since the sunlight and how frozen the ground would be also a good test. Antartica would also be another good location as we need to test out the cold unfolding of the pond from the shipping method and filling process of water that will not be as easy to control on mars for temperature.
Some of these things could be part of the chamber that we ship it in as ride along automation and deployment depending on size of ships diameter delivering it.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-07 19:39:17

For SpaceNut re #18

Thanks for adding additional perspective to the topic...

Both suggestions for test sites make a lot of sense!

On the ** other ** hand, if we ignore atmospheric pressure in early testing, then New Hampshire in the dead of winter would be as good a place as any to test the experiment apparatus. It seems to me that testing on Earth will necessarily bring more stress than would be the case on Mars! The gravity is stronger. The winds are more severe. There may well be other factors that would act to ruin the experiment on Earth.

To test with authentic atmosphere, deploying the experiment on (or near) the top of a tall mountain would be useful.

If the experiment equipment is built to survive a winter on Earth, and then another winter on the top of a tall mountain, deployment to Mars should seem like a picnic in comparison.

I'm intrigued by your mention of the ship's diameter as a factor in designing the package. It should be possible to design equipment that folds to fit inside any ship selected for the flight.

(th)

Void · 2023-01-08 11:20:36

Leaning how to work with salt water might be of great value. So, if you could figure out how to do that and grow specialty items inland, just maybe you could find a special market. In reality ponds near the shore, on desert lands, or tundra may be obtainable at a reasonable price. But environmentalism could be an impediment. In part they satisfy a power fetish, just by impeding an action by other people, so you have to deal with their psychology as well.

Done.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-08 11:49:12

For Void re #20

This is a remarkably good idea!

It is on a par with other remarkable ideas you have recorded in this forum.

Thank you !!!!

I am tempted to create a new topic just for this branch, because I'd like this topic to remain tightly focused on the Mars problem.

Before I do, I'm hoping you or perhaps other members will give some thought to the implications of Void's idea.

we (humans) are most certainly going to be giving up land area to the oceans for the next thousand years or so.

Void's idea ** could ** allow humans to take advantage of the encroaching sea, by planning ahead and building suitable environments.

All posts that depart from the Mars focus are eligible to be moved to a new Earth pointing topic, if one becomes attractive to members.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-08 15:41:04

One of the void topics does have a post by me with data on the salt concentrating to temperature. It shows how as temperature drops dissolving into the water as the temperature drops as more salt is added.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-08 18:43:05

Following up on the conversation between Void and SpaceNut, Google found these snippets about salt water agriculture.

Sea grass is 100% salt water acclimated, as is kelp ....

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Dutch Experiment Shows Farming With Salty Water Possible
https://www.voanews.com › farming-with-salty-water-is-p...
Search for: Could a farmer near the sea coast use salt water to water crops Why or why not?

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-08 18:44:34

https://www.voanews.com/a/farming-with- … 10044.html

Dutch Experiment Shows Farming With Salty Water Possible
November 05, 2014 6:59 PM
George Putic
Farming With Salty Water Is Possible
One of the many adverse effects of global climate change is the rise of sea levels, which scientists say can increase the salinity level of fresh water reserves. As saline water cannot be used for irrigation, farm fields close to the seashore are lost to agriculture. But a farm in Netherlands has managed to grow healthy and tasty vegetables in soil irrigated with salt water.
Salinization is reducing the world’s irrigated lands by 1 to 2 percent annually, according to the U.N.'s Food and Agriculture Organization.
But that doesn't faze Dutch farmer Marc Van Rijsselberghe, who has used saline water to kill some plants in order to identify which ones are able to thrive.
“We put a lot of plants in the field and then we put them in fresh water and in sea water and all varieties between it, and then we see which variety is surviving and which variety is dying,” he said.
Working with scientists from the Free University of Amsterdam, Van Rijsselberghe and his team divided a farm into eight plots covered with a network of irrigation pipes.
Separate pipes bring fresh water and sea water to a distribution center where a computer-controlled system mixes irrigation water with eight different degrees of salinity.
“And then computer says 'go' and then it goes to the fields and dripping irrigation starts to work and we are going to kill plants. That's it,” said Van Rijsselberghe.
Numerous sensors continuously control soil salinity and moisture. Van Rijsselberghe said they were able to harvest vegetables from most of the test plots. Although they were smaller than normal, he said they contain more sugar and salt, so they taste better.
“It's a miracle. It shouldn't be a carrot, it should be dying if we look at the data that are available in the world at the moment,” he said.
The farm managed to grow carrots, cabbage, onions and beetroot, but potatoes proved to be the most tolerant to saline water. Van Rijsselberghe said four varieties of salt-tolerant potatoes recently were shipped to Pakistan where thousands of hectares of land damaged by salinization are being prepared for testing the Dutch potatoes.

This is an impressive example of the scientific method in practical use!

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-08 18:53:28

But to keep mars near earths ocean temperatures may prove to energy consuming and that is why the saline salt level is important.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saline_water

Seawater has a salinity of roughly 35,000 ppm, equivalent to 35 grams of salt per one liter (or kilogram) of water. The saturation level is only nominally dependent on the temperature of the water. At 20 °C (68 °F) one liter of

https://www.usgs.gov/special-topics/wat … d-salinity

We also have more than just a sodium base for what is in the oceans as well and mars will possibly have others as well as feed water once collected.

here is the term for why we add aeration
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brackish_water

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