Home Heating and Power on Earth using Renewable (Solar) Resources

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-29 12:05:36

For SpaceNut ....

We did not have a topic defined for Home and Heating ...

Recent discussions in other topics show there is some interest in and potential for growth of a topic on home heating.

My intention in starting this topic is to attempt to address the home heating needs of all humans on Earth, and not just a tiny subset of privileged persons.

***
https://afdc.energy.gov/files/pdfs/3229.pdf

The purpose of this post is to attempt to advance the proposition that a supply of vegetable oil can be stored under ground in a residence location, and used to heat and power a home for an entire winter.

I was unable to scrape this pdf...
The article states that soydiesel is a net energy generator.
This article/pdf seems well worth study.

In another search, I found an estimate for soy bean oil production:

Thus the net average yield of soydiesel per acre is 53.4 gallons.
How Much Energy Does It Take to Make a Gallon of Soydiesel
https://afdc.energy.gov › files › pdfs
About featured snippets
•

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tahanson43206 · 2022-12-29 12:07:51

The output of the study reported in Post #1 of this topic indicates that there is potential for a farmer who specializes in production of vegetable oils (as described in the article) may anticipate a small but steady income.

Meanwhile, consumers who need a supply of stored energy for the winter have the potential of a renewable supply that can be stored underground for as long as needed.

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SpaceNut · 2022-12-29 12:12:18

This is the biofuels of the past since diesel got very expensive many are using the fry grease to get their vehicles running. Using it as a heating fuel is about the same as waste oil recovery from automobiles that can be fed into a furnace for heating use.
Its again about ability of scale for use for the resource you have to achieve self-sufficiency.

You still need energy in to make the resource to process into a viable end use product. As for farming many crops are made for additive to fuels from doing so as the undistributed foods otherwise go to waste. Corn to ethanol is one of those.

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-29 12:36:17

For SpaceNut re #3

Thank you for your sturdy support for this new topic!

Your reminder of things to keep in mind is important and helpful.

Humans on Earth need to organize themselves so that needs of citizens of all Nations are met.

This organization includes rising to the challenge of applying discipline to individuals and groups who behave like Neanderthals.

Right now, we have a number of individuals and groups committing armed aggression on various groups of victims.

Your point is important, that oil that might be used for home heating might also be consumed by humans.

I would argue that there is an upper limit to the amount of soybean oil that the human population might reasonably consume.

Accordingly, the farmer who engages in production of soy bean oil (take as a collection of individuals and organizations) clearly needs to produce enough product to meet all reasonable human food needs, while also meeting all reasonable home heating needs.

In other topics, kbd512 has advocated production of hydrocarbon fuels from solar power, and I support this ambition.

Hydrogen is an input feedstock for any of the products that kbd512 might wish to make.

This topic is wide open to any renewable energy source that is practical and might be developed on Earth in the coming year.

Growing soy beans would appear to be a practical idea that has potential to meet both food and heating needs.

What this forum has in abundance are fears and worries about just about anything that comes along.

Post #2 helps to set the stage by pointing out the need for food needs to be kept in mind as home heating needs are addressed.

Something that Post #2 reminds me (just now in fact) that a winter's stash of soy bean oil in a tank under the basement would in fact be a source of food in an emergency. Soy bean oil from the basement storage tank could be used as salad dressing, and a leavening agent for soup.

To all members .... here is an opportunity to contribute all the fear laden worries you might wish to share with other members, and our (hopefully) global audience.

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SpaceNut · 2022-12-29 14:35:10

For areas that are climate limited ythe option for a greenhouse is about all you get to grow within, so having another of any crop is an issue if you do not have the land. That means buying the product to use and that is the issue for those on the energy poor side of the world.

So, heating and power using soybean oil or other forms of biodiesel to burn and consume for power brings up quite the tall order.
If you limit power to 40kwhr a day, then we get an average power for the hour of 1 2/3 kwhr or rounding up 2kw generator target which might not power a furnace plus everything but boosting that to 5kw might be over kill.

5185685WBlL.__AC_SX300_SY300_QL70_FMwebp_.jpg

16525124-d499-44f2-bfc2-cf78c0470b12._SR970,300_.png

Engine Type 2 Stroke
Tank Volume 12 Gallons
Runtime 32 hours

well that seems pretty good since we need just 24 and then a second unit to be able to turn on such as to give cool down periods.

Turning Soybeans Into Diesel Fuel Is Costing Us Billions

Marrying Soybeans and Renewable Diesel

Fuel from the Field: Soybean Oil and its Energy Uses

As of January 1, 2021, 75 plants in the United States produced biodiesel, totaling a total capacity of 2,409 million gallons per year. The state with the plurality of biodiesel plants was Iowa, with 10 plants comprising an aggregate production capacity of 460 million gallons annually.

The Relationship between Biodiesel and Soybean Oil Prices

conversion rate of 7.55 pounds of soybean oil per gallon of biodiesel

so how many acres of crop do you need

https://farm-energy.extension.org/soybe … roduction/

Based on a yield of 44 bushels per acre, an acre of soybeans could yield 66 gallons of biodiesel, compared to 69 gallons for a 1,300-lb per acre canola yield, 84 gallons for sunflower and over 600 gallons for palm oil

https://farm-energy.extension.org/rapes … roduction/

roughly 16 acres gets the process to that first 1,000 gallon mark for biodiesel.

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-29 15:10:06

For SpaceNut re #4

It appears that Generac makes diesel fuel generators, but they appear to be on the beefy side:

People also ask
Can Generac run on diesel?
The good news is that should something happen to interrupt the natural gas supply; Generac BI-FUEL™ generators can seamlessly run on 100% diesel fuel. You can end the debate between a natural gas vs. diesel generator.
Bi-Fuel | Generac Industrial Power
https://www.generac.com › Industrial › all-about › bi-fuel
Search for: Can Generac run on diesel?
How long will a Generac generator run on diesel fuel?
Are Generac generators gas or diesel?

We only need a 20 AM generator to keep the furnace going, along with a few lights and the TV.

Please keep looking to see if you can find a low end emergency generator that can run on diesel.

My expectation is that the home owner would top of the soydiesel tank before the onset of winter, and use Utility power until the lights go off, at which point the emergency soydiesel generator would become the mainstay for the furnace.

My earlier thought was that a small steam plant would be a good bet, assuming that a supply of suitable water is available.

Searching further, I have not yet found a diesel generator in the $400 price range that would keep the furnace and a few lights on ...

People also ask
What is the smallest diesel generator available?
Small diesel generators range in size from 2.5kva to 15kva and are portable in nature. Small diesel generators tend to be air cooled and provides an economical backup power source for fixed or mobile applications such as; tradesmen use, mining sites, farming requirements, professional contractors and more.
Small Diesel Generatorhttps://www.mygenerator.com.au › small-diesel-generator
Search for: What is the smallest diesel generator available?

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tahanson43206 · 2022-12-29 15:20:22

For SpaceNut ... here's a steam generator supplier ....

https://claverton-energy.com/mini-steam … nergy.html

Mini Steam Powered Generating Sets
JANUARY 27, 2010 / DAVE ANDREWS / BIOMASS, MICRO-GENERATION, STEAM ENGINE / 100 COMMENTS
10 kw – 3kw power output to run on renewable energy ie wood and other biomass
To see power plant for sale or wanted, press SELECT CATEGORY and choose FOR SALE/WANTED
to place your power plant FOR SALE or WANTED ad, register on the site and wait to be made an author, then post it. Instructions on the menu ” HOW TO”.
This Indian company make mini steam engines they can now despatch in one week only. They appear to be suitable for small biomass chp applications.
IF YOU WANT TO BUY A STEAM ENGINE DON’T only LEAVE A COMMENT BELOW, ALSO SEND AN EMAIL OR CONTACT THE COMPANY DIRECTLY
Quote….”……….
Please study current price list given below and then decide what you want. We manufacture and export the following capacity steam engines and steam power plants. These power plants are not automatic. Continuous manual feeding of wood or biomass to boiler is essential. Moreover, electricity generated in these power plants cannot be fed into grid as steam engine are without governors. But, these steam power plants are highly suitable for agro processing activity by connecting steam engines directly to oil expeller, sugar cane crusher, rice huller, water pump for irrigation etc. Of course, electricity also can be generated and used to drive motors as a captive power plant. Frequency can vary a little bit which does not harm in normal working. But in a grid feeding, frequency variation is not allowed. So, it can work as independent power plant.

3 Kw is the size I'm looking for ... enough to keep the furnace running and a few lights, and possibly the refrigerator.

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SpaceNut · 2022-12-29 15:29:08

20-amp current is not enough to handle the surge currents to start the furnace and the 5000 watts while it seems overrated you use less fuel when you are not drawing as much on the unit. It's not until you have been without that you will want more power to enable more items as you go more than an hour or two into weeks. What saved us was the fact I had a running vehicle when it was that long of a period of time. Not to mention you are going to want to be able to eat the long the days linger on.

The furnace tanks would be the same size as oil for usage and amount is efficiency dependent for the age of the unit.
Of course, the higher the loss rate or the higher you want the homes internal temperatures to be cause a huge rise in what you would use.

The only difference is the desire to stock it once so that means multiple tanks to hold the 1,000 gallons plus of what might be needed.

edit or any lower size common manufactured sizes such as 250, or 200 until you get to the magic number

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-29 15:52:10

For SpaceNut re #8

It is great to have you still working this interesting challenge!

1) When you have time, please explain why a 15 amp circuit breaker does not trip when a furnace comes on the average American home.

I don't doubt for a minute you have experience/knowledge that tells you a 15 AM circuit breaker can't handle the load of a furnace start.

However, I have 30+ experience that says there is something out of whack with the equipment you've been working with.

2) The smallest generator I've been able to find so far seems to offer 3 KW ...

I'm not sure what that translates to in AC 123 VAC power, but it is surely more than 20 amps, and able to handle whatever surge a furnace may impose.

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tahanson43206 · 2022-12-29 15:56:50

For SpaceNut .... your recent post suggests multiple 1000 gallon tanks instead of one gigantic tank! I think is a major improvement over my original idea. The tanks can be installed in a subbasement in the average home, and filled in the fall as crops are harvested.

This is comparable to folks stocking up on wood just a hundred years ago.

It would be ** excellent ** to see the entire world making this transition.

We need to complete estimates for the amount of fuel needed for a home in the Northern Lattitudes to maintain comfort inside the home for six months . From that, given the average productivity of soy bean fields, we can determine how many acres must be allocated for each household.

This is most definitely NOT rocket science! It just requires a bit of accounting to work this out.

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SpaceNut · 2022-12-29 16:05:05

You do not want to under rate the fusing or currents you want to go the other way and add a buffer for the surge currents so you do not burn it out.

How Many Amps Does a Space Heater Use?

For instance, a 120 V space heater that requires 15 A would have 1800 W (120 * 15). Find the total number of watts required for heating purposes from manuals provided by manufacturers or online sources. As mentioned above, our example has 1800 W, so multiply them by 0.83, which will give 1440 BTU/h.

The same holds true for electrical wiring in that while 16 AGW is acceptable for the 15-amp circuit one tends to want to plug more than that into the receptacle and for that reason you wire it with 14 AGW so that you do not burn down the house.

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-29 18:15:47

For SpaceNut re #11

Thanks for your follow up regarding confusion over power requirements for various devices.

An ordinary furnace does NOT require more than 15 amp, to run or to start.

A heavy duty electric heater, on the other hand, might well require over 15 amps.

The whole point of having a hydrocarbon heating system is to avoid non-essential consumption of electricity.

On the other hand, all furnaces (that I know about) require a small amount of electricity to operate the electronic control systems, to operate the fans, and to ignite the gas or oil when starting.

By observation, I can see that almost NO current is consumed when the furnace flame is ignited. The flame is allowed to burn for a while, before the fans start to move air.

Thanks for providing this opportunity to think about how electricity is consumed in a modern furnace.

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tahanson43206 · 2022-12-29 18:20:19

For all ... this topic provides an opportunity for all current members to contribute to development of an all-renewable approach to home heating;

if there is someone not already a member who would like to participate in the discussion, or (even better) to create a business based upon this theme, please review the Recruiting topic for procedure.

I believe there is sufficient sunlight falling on the surface of the Earth to insure everyone has enough energy to provide a comfortable and rewarding life.

It is up to humans alive today to organize ourselves so that the abundant supply of solar energy is distributed as needed, while each person is compensated adequately for time and effort invested.

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kbd512 · 2022-12-29 20:51:43

University of Nebraska at Lincoln - CropWatch - Soybean as a Biofuel Feedstock

Potential Biofuel Yields
Current U.S. production of soybeans in 2009 was 3.4 billion bushels from 77.4 million acres. Average yield per acre for the U.S. was 44 bushels per acre (National Ag Statistics Service). One bushel of soybeans can yield 1.5 gallons of biodiesel (NBB). Using all U.S. soybeans for biodiesel could produce 5.1 billion gallons biofuel. Using all soybean production for biodiesel has not been proposed and is not realistic. In 2009 biodiesel production was 700 million gallons with a production capacity of 1.83 billion gallons (Biodiesel Magazine, 2008). Based on a yield of 44 bushels per acre, an acre of soybeans could yield 66 gallons of biodiesel compared to 69 gallons for a 1300 lb per acre canola yield, 84 gallons for sunflower and over 600 gallons for palm oil (Hill et. al. 2006 and SDSU 2008).

SpaceNut · 2022-12-29 22:59:28

The higher the BTU and sqft of area to heat the higher the electrical will be so sure you might have a less than 15 amp circuit but why plan small.

What size generator do I need to run my oil furnace?

it indicates more than 800 watts to which I have an inverter that is rated at this level, and it would not start mine

https://hvacseer.com/oil-furnace-electricity/

it takes approximately 2,500 watts of electricity to run an oil furnace

depending on boiler type also increase the power requirement.

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-30 08:30:52

For kbd512 re #14

Nice Find! Thanks for this contribution to the topic. The performance of the palm tree is remarkable.

Apparently it originated in Africa and was transplanted to Indonesia, where it has been quite successful, at the price of some other plants (I gather).

What I like about the Palm tree is that the fruit can be harvested (apparently) without destroying the tree, which is a different scenario from all the other crops that produce oil (that I know about). Members are welcome to add to this topic to report other plant types that produce oil.

***
For SpaceNut ... your insistence (based on real life experience) that oil furnaces draw more power than gas ones has inspired me to think more about the technologies involved. my experience is with high efficiency gas furnaces. I can assure you they operate on a 15 Amp circuit. They use DC motors.

My deduction is they do NOT surge in power changes. They DC motors are controlled by computes.

The experience you have reported is more valuable to the present enterprise, because this topic has been looking at use of vegetable oil for home heating, as an alternative to stored deposits of ancient plant life. I am guessing there are fundamental differences between oil burning furnaces and gas powered ones.

for one thing, gas flows into the furnace of it's own accord, because the gas utility pumps gas into the distribution at elevated pressure. That pressure is reduced when the gas enters a home, but it is still sufficient to flow smoothly and effortlessly into the combustion chamber as the computer controlled valve adjusts.

An oil furnace would require a pump to move the oil into position for combustion, and there may be a motor driven atomizer in the mix. Both furnaces use large motors to drive fans to move air into the house, but I would hope that modern oil furnaces also use DC motors, so the home owner no longer sees the surges you have reported.

The design of modern oil furnaces would be a welcome addition to this topic.

In addition, there is a question of how suitable vegetable oil might be for use in an oil furnace. You have reported use of waste oil from cooking operations, so there should be some technical data to review on performance of vegetable oil, and any considerations that must be taken into account when using such oil.

kbd512 showed us a citation that reports on soy bean oil production in the United States, and calls attention to the preparation of biodiesel from the raw oil.

I'm wondering if similar preparation is needed before soy bean oil can be used in an oil furnace.

A post or a series of posts on how to prepare vegetable oil (of various kinds) for use in an oil furnace would be a welcome addition to this topic.

To repeat the scope of the inquiry: I am looking to see if biologically produced oil can be stored ahead of a winter, to provide heating and emergency power for a household in the United States, with a planned duration of six months. If the answer is yes, then the next question is whether it is practical to grow that much plant material in the United States, or if the surface of the Earth outside the United States would need to be enlisted.

Plants grow for free, and the solar energy to assist with their growth is free. Just about everything else requires assistance of people, and that means trade, and that means expense. The prospect of a successful design and implementation of a plant based heating cycle for the United States depends (largely) upon how efficient the human involved processes may be.

Robots are coming along at a favorable time to assist with cost reduction in this endeavor.

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tahanson43206 · 2022-12-30 09:17:28

Google came up with the following snippets when asked about design of a furnace to burn vegetable oil.

The list includes burning of used motor oil, which started out eons ago as vegetable oil...

Converting a Home Heating Oil Furnace to Burn Waste Motor Oilhttps://www.uvm.edu › AltEnergy › convertfurnace
The mixture of hot, atomized waste veg-oil spray is combined with fanned air and ignited where it is swirled through a special retention head that's used to ...
3 pages
SIMPLE Waste Oil Burner guide - by VOGMAN - YouTubehttps://www.youtube.com › watch
12:34
SIMPLE Waste Oil Burner guide built for nothing from spare parts. Want a really simple waste oil burner? Want to power a home furnace or ...
YouTube · VogMan · Oct 5, 2015
10 key moments in this video
People also ask
How to make a vegetable oil heater?
Can you burn vegetable oil in a waste oil furnace?
Can you use vegetable oil in an oil furnace?
How does an oil burner furnace work?
Feedback
Homemade Oil Burner for vegetable oil and waste Oil with Fan ...https://www.youtube.com › watch
8:53
Homemade Oil Burner for vegetable oil and waste Oil with Fan and tankIn this video I show how I build a universal fan burner with tank.
YouTube · Turbo Schneider · Feb 25, 2021
Crafting a used cooking oil burner - super efficient - YouTubehttps://www.youtube.com › watch
15:20
Crafting a used cooking oil burner - super efficientThanks for watching ! ... Garden Design. Garden Design. 643K subscribers. Subscribe.
YouTube · Garden Design · Jul 15, 2022
Atomizing Waste Oil Burners | Living Web Farmshttps://livingwebfarms.org › atomizing_waste_oil_burn...
Oct 26, 2017 — These 'gun-style' burners work by forcing refined oil through a specialized nozzle at high pressure, creating a mist that ignites in the ...
Understanding Atomizing Waste Oil Burners - Living Web Farmshttp://livingwebfarms.org › uploads › 2016/03
Same reason kindling burns brighter and faster than firewood. Disclaimer ... Yellowbiodiesel.com YellowHeat furnace - Designed for vegetable oil.
Home Made WVO WMO Oil Burner - VegOilGuyhttps://www.vegoilguy.co.uk › oil_burner
Throw a lit match in a bucket of veg oil and you'll extinguish the flame. But veg oil vapours burn more easily and that's what these compressor designs were ...
Powered by cooking oil: Ashfield man invents a better burnerhttps://www.recorder.com › Ashfield-man-invents-a-bet...
Aug 24, 2017 — Such unrefined, used cooking grease can clog most burner heads, but Leue has designed a Babington Ball burner head that can be connected to any ...
Design and Fabrication of Oil Burner, Based on Used Engine ...https://www.researchgate.net › publication › 327498671_...
Sep 7, 2018 — changed engine oil, used cooking oil, waste. hydraulic oil. This rejected product has certain ... burner which burns the used engine oil and.
Roger Sanders' Waste Oil Heater - Mother Earthhttps://journeytoforever.org › ethanol_motherearth
Burning vegetable oil. And more – with complete DIY instructions, photographs, design drawings. The Second Edition is available as a downloadable pdf e-book ...
Related searches

the key take-away for me is the need to atomize the oil upon introduction to the burner cavity...

Provision for dealing with clumps is cited as an issue, so it would seem reasonable (to me at least) to perform filtering at the product provider before shipping oil to customers. The customer might include a filter process in accepting oil from the delivery vehicle.

Periodic inspection of the components of the ignition system would seem advisable.

With modern electronics, real-time observation of the burner operation is feasible, as is data collection in real time for computer record keeping.

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tahanson43206 · 2022-12-30 09:29:19

https://hvacseer.com/oil-furnace-electricity/

The article at the link above covers a wide range of subjects related to furnace operation when power is out.

How Much Power Does It Take To Run An Oil Furnace?
Generally, it takes approximately 2,500 watts of electricity to run an oil furnace. This is significantly less than a minimum of 15,000 watts as required for electric furnaces. However, keep in mind that different furnaces and furnace types have different electrical requirements.
Usually, the specific requirements are outlined on the label of the furnace or in the owner's manual. Often, the label is under a cover or panel that can be removed by hand or after taking out a couple of screws. To find the specific requirements of your furnace, look for "watts," which is sometimes abbreviated with a capital "W."

The smallest diesel powered generator i was able to find earlier in this topic was one that delivers 3 Kw. That would appear to be a good match for the average furnace as described by the article above.

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tahanson43206 · 2022-12-30 09:30:16

For SpaceNut ... does you home still contain the oil furnace you used at one time?

Is it still operational?

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SpaceNut · 2022-12-30 09:39:56

My furnace is no longer operational and needs replacing.

A gas furnace does not have the pump required for oil movement from the storage tank that is in a liquid form. Where gas is only liquid in the tank and state changes as pressure is lowered.

That shows how important pressure is.
How much pressure is in a propane tank?

Liquified Petroleum Gas, or LPG, is the result of pressurizing propane gas, which causes it to drop below its boiling point of -44 degrees Fahrenheit.
There are four “Gas Laws” that explain the relationship between gases, pressure, temperature, and volume. Generally, propane pressure should be between 100 and 200 psi ensures that the liquid propane gas remains in a liquid state.

Controlling the outlet pressure is the regulator which is used to custom the pressure for use

Propane Pressure Regulator

Some outdoor gas appliances, such as high heat cast iron burners, require the use of a high pressure regulator because they need more volume of gas than a low pressure regulator will deliver. A high pressure regulator will regulate the output pressure from 1 psi to as high as 60 psi. There are a number of different high pressure regulators available. Some high pressure regulators are “preset”. That is, the propane pressure is fixed at, for example, 10 psi or 20 psi. Further attenuation of the gas delivered to the appliance may be done by use of an inline ball valve or needle control valve located either on the hose or built into the appliance. The other common type of high pressure regulator is an “adjustable” high pressure regulator. Adjustable high pressure regulators are available in 0-20 psi, 0-30 psi, and 0-60 psi versions and have an output pressure adjustment control built directly into the regulator. Depending on the number of btu/hr that the gas appliance(s) require, one chooses the adjustable propane gas regulator which gives the required number of btu/hr. Choose the propane regulator that is the closest match. There is no advantage of having a propane regulator with a lot more btu/hr than you actually need. As you increase the btu/hr output of a propane regulator, the degree of control that the internal propane regulator valve has over the gas output decreases; i.e., turning the valve an 1/8″ in a 0-60 psi adjustable propane regulator has a lot more effect than turning the valve an 1/8″ in a 0-20 psi adjustable propane regulator.

So the line size also contributes to that matching.

What is the pressure of propane in a home?

Propane is a gas that is used to fuel cooking appliances, stoves and furnaces in homes. The most common pressure for propane ranges from 4-10 pounds per square inch (psi). There are different types of home storage tanks with varying psi ratings. Tanks range from 8 lb/in2 to 18 lbs/in2.
A typical working pressure for liquid petroleum or LP gas appliances is 10″ – 11″ of water column (WC), or 27.4 millibars or 2491 – 2739 Pascals or Pa, or around 0.36 – 0.40 psi, or about 5.78 to 6.36 ounces of pressure per square inch.
What is the usual propane pressure in this case?
Unlike natural gas appliances, which operate at pressures of around 7 inches of water column (WC) or 14.9 millibars, 1743 Pa, or about 0.25 psi (pounds per square inch), propane (liquid petroleum or LP gas) appliances typically operate at pressures of 10 – 11 inches WC or 27.4 millibars, 2491 – 2739 Pa, or about 0.36 psi (pounds per square inch).

In the end biological oils can be produced if you have the land and farming equipment.

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-30 11:16:57

For SpaceNut re #20

First, thanks for this thorough/detailed report on propane home heating and related facts about propane.

Second, this topic is NOT about propane or natural gas. This topic is NOT about petroleum extracted from deep wells, or even from shallow ones.

This topic is ENTIRELY about renewable energy supply.

kbd512 has talked/written about artificial manufacture of hydrocarbon fuels. If kbd512 succeeds in finding a backer, and then succeeds in finding an engineering team to create the design for a plant able to make hydrocarbon fuel using Solar Power and sourcing from air (CO2) and water, ** then ** it would be reasonable to talk about using (green) propane in home heating applications.

I would guess it will take kbd512 at least another Earth year to begin producing propane for sale to customers in any quantity. It might take longer.

In the mean time, ** this ** topic is about consuming already available renewable energy carriers for home heating.

Hydrogen is already becoming increasingly available, and it might be stored in a set of home storage containers.

However, naturally occurring oils are far safer, store for much longer periods at ordinary temperatures, and produce non-toxic chemicals when burned properly.

In your closing line, you pointed to the agricultural community in the United States and around the world. Most of these folks are already engaged in converting sunlight into useful products. The principle of Division of Labor combines with the Principle of Specialization, to suggest that it makes most sense for farmers to produce vegetable oil for consumers, and for consumers to do what they are best able to do.

Very few ordinary persons have a clue how to run a farm, or the time or patience or most any other quality that a successful farmer inherits from ancestors.

My recommendation is to stay as far away from farming as you possibly can, except to encourage real farmers to produce products you need, and to pay them fairly for their management of solar energy on your behalf.

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tahanson43206 · 2022-12-30 11:38:09

For SpaceNut ... just FYI ...

I dropped off an inquiry at the United Soy Bean Board...https://www.unitedsoybean.org/contact-us/

This question would probably fit a research department. In discussion with other members of an organization affiliated with the Mars Society, the question of renewable home heating came up. The practices of living on Earth are of great interest to those thinking about the even greater challenges of life on Mars. The proposal at hand is to store soy bean oil in tanks under a home, in sufficient quantity to provide home heating for a winter. While power supply is NOT part of this proposal, the ability to provide emergency power sufficient to operate an oil furnace is included as a small but necessary part of the fuel allocation. It is not at all clear how many homes could be heated with soy bean oil, but it seems clear that any planting for home heating should be in addition to any existing planting, so as to avoid that conflict that has happened with corn. The discussion is under way in the NewMars.com/forum, and I serve as a junior moderator with the id: tahanson43206. In that role, I manage admission to the forum, and would welcome anyone with a serious interest in developing the idea further.
Best wishes to everyone who comes into contact with this inquiry, for 2023 and beyond.
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SpaceNut · 2022-12-30 11:47:30

The agriculture is getting paid slightly more for the nonfood use of the crops than for food use. As seen above its going to take 16 acres of land to farm for soybean oil use or more to achieve just winter fuel use. That is not sustainable for mars let alone on earth in a seasonal climate area.

Of course, there is the equipment and its energy to provide the necessary bean oil from as well as that to grow and harvest it before processing. Not to mention all the other acreage to feed oneself with.

Something else to consider when making use of AC power is that voltage is not always as stable as we think in that we have voltage sag or browning where the power drops in voltage to as low as 85-Volts under heavy demand. With that we need more current to provide the devices we are running as they want to get the power that they need to function as to why you need to make sure that the circuit has enough to take that into account.

SpaceNut · 2022-12-30 18:32:43

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut ....
If you were starting a furnace replacement project from scratch, a furnace capable of burning vegetable oil would seem to be worth investigating.
An earlier search of the Internet revealed that special provisions are needed for preparing oil for combustion in a furnace, and that there may be special issues or concerns when burning vegetable oil as compared to home heating oil that comes from a refinery where it is filtered to the consistency needed for home service.
In the scenario under consideration in another topic, storage of vegetable oil in sufficient quantity to heat a home for an entire winter is under consideration.
It should be possible to estimate the quantity of vegetable oil that would be needed for a home for a six month season, and thus to compute the storage requirements. Just 100 years ago, it was not uncommon to lay up sufficient fire wood to last a winter, and I understand that in Alaska, that is still a common practice. In these more advanced times, the possibility exists to lay up a winter's supply of heating oil and the small extra that might be needed to power the furnace when utility power is out.
it should be possible to compute the cost of the entire package.
Cost of the fuel is a separate issue ... if soy beans are grown for a large market, economies of scale should reduce the cost of each barrel of oil produced.
(th)

Its to costly to think about as I would not heat with oil let alone use forced hot air to do the heating as the total system would cost near to 10k and then you still have the annual costs of now that the oil is over 4 a gallon of spending 4k a year to do what heat a basement that is the largest of loss factors in the home.

SpaceNut · 2022-12-30 18:35:52

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut re helping to develop a framework for a project ....
Because you are the first person on Earth to be considered to test the hypothesis of using Soy Bean oil (or similar vegetable oil) to sustain a normal/typical home for a winter heating season, I am hoping you will find time to make some estimates of what would be required.
If you have records of oil consumption vs weather conditions from times when the furnace was working, those could be fed into computations of what it would take to match the ground sourced oil with freshly grown and harvested vegetable oil.
The present cost of vegetable oil for cooking is interesting but it should NOT be considered to be the actual cost of vegetable oil grown for heating. The present cost of vegetable oil for cooking can be used to obtain an outer estimate of cost for a test home.
The costs of such a test home would be borne by a research consortium. The equipment to be used for a test of the concept, as well as any additions to the home that might be needed for storing vegetable oil would all be funded by the (hypothetical) consortium.
For planning a test project, it would be helpful for the funder to know the likely cost of home improvements that would be needed.
There are already potential buyers of such a system. These individuals are wealthy enough to pay for the entire system and a year's supply of fuel without blinking. In order for that market to open, it would be necessary to demonstrate the practicality of the concept with a Real Universe test case.
(th)

I took a look at the cost on the store which I buy food at which happens to be the lowest costing in the area and found that food oil in vegetable and canola were the cheapest for 3 quarts and these were close to $9 each. Which means you are spending quite a bit more than you would if you did farm these for this intended use.

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