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#326 2022-10-13 23:54:55

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,787

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

Key points in the article as smaller lower cost builds that provide for local water use, that saves the environment on land and sea, presents no hazards from brine discharge as its diluted with wastewater plants output. seems like a win win.

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#327 2022-10-18 18:06:31

Steve Stewart
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From: Kansas (USA)
Registered: 2019-09-21
Posts: 17

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

The link below has 12 minutes of audio from the radio program "Science Friday". The segment is about a passive device that has a polymer that can extract water from dry air. The text portion states "...allows the team to extract as much as six liters of water per day from one kilogram of their polymer, even in areas with 15% humidity. That’s drier than the Sahara Desert." Seems like this could be used on Mars as well.

Pulling Water From Thin Air? It’s Materials Science, Not Magic.

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#328 2022-10-18 18:59:50

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,049

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

For Steve Stewart re #327

Thanks for the mention of "Science Friday" !!! There was a time when I caught every episode, but it's been a while, so I'm glad to know they are still broadcasting.  The report you've described sounds really interesting!

The application on Mars seems (to me at least) very similar to the application in space vessels (such as Large Ship) as well as in Mars habitats, where moisture in the air would be valuable as a resource to be captured when humidity is higher than humans (or plants) would find comfortable. 

(th)

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#329 2022-10-22 08:39:24

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,787

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

This is the other shoe that will drop once the water is gone as The West’s biggest source of renewable energy depends on water. Will it survive the drought?
To have the water we will need to lower the power creation which means coming up with alternatives.

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#330 2022-10-22 08:55:57

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,049

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

For SpaceNut re #329

Thanks for keeping an eye on this slowly unfolding disaster .... I caught an interview yesterday that was conducted by a gent from Phoenix.  He was interviewing a resident of a nation in Africa, where the drought has led to countless deaths and dislocation.  The gent from Phoenix mused aloud that the situation in Africa might be a vision of what he and his neighbors will be seeing.

The solution (for Phoenix and possibly elsewhere) has been hammered out at great length and in detail in this topic.

Our contact in Phoenix has given up on the idea of introducing any new ideas into the social situation in that city, or in Arizona.

Minds are made up, and only Ma Nature has the power to change them.

It will be interesting to watch.

(th)

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#331 2022-10-22 10:15:13

Steve Stewart
Member
From: Kansas (USA)
Registered: 2019-09-21
Posts: 17

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

Comment #328 Tahanson43206 wrote:

Thanks for the mention of "Science Friday" !!! There was a time when I caught every episode, but it's been a while, so I'm glad to know they are still broadcasting.

Tahanson43206,
I'm glad you like Science Friday. I can't listen to it live, since I'm always at work when it's on. I usually visit their web-site when I can and download episodes as an MP3 file. I can then listen to the MP3 file when I'm in my car, or mowing with my headphones on, etc. I went through the Science Friday Archive searching for anything Mars related. I went back about a year and found the following (Mars related) segments.


Making A Meal Fit For An Astronaut
12 minutes
10/14/2022

Building A Better Battery… Using Plastic?
11 minutes
06/03/2022

Why Exactly Should We Go Back To The Moon—And Onto Mars?
Books
How should we square pro-space arguments from tech CEOs with the history of imperialism and underinvestment in social equity programs? How to Save the World for Just a Trillion Dollars: The Ten Biggest Problems We Can Actually Fix
04/15/2022

Last Martian Love Fest
17 minutes
04/01/2022

The Case Of Mars’ Missing Water
17 minutes
03/18/2022

Can Meteorites On Earth Point To Ancient Life On Mars?
19 minutes
03/04/2022

Blast Off To The Red Planet With The Spring Book Club
9 minutes
02/25/2022

Get Outta This World With Our Mars Book Club Events
02/21/2022
SCIFRI BOOK CLUB - LIVE EVENT
(Can rewatch past events)

Read ‘The Sirens Of Mars’ With The SciFri Book Club
01/21/2022
Article
Sarah Stewart Johnson explores humanity’s fascination with the Red Planet in ‘The Sirens Of Mars.’ We’ll read it together this spring.

The Importance Of Gathering Samples From Mars Before Humans Arrive
01/21/2022
Article
Scientist Sarah Stewart Johnson makes the case for why we should do as much science as we can on Mars—before humans step foot on the planet. The Sirens Of Mars

NASA Scientist Answers Kids’ Questions About The Mars Rover
09/17/2021
4 minutes

What’s Shaking Below Mars’ Surface?
07/30/2021
17 minutes

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#332 2022-10-22 10:53:35

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,049

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

For Steve Stewart re #331

Thanks for this (to me impressive) list of Science Friday programs that apply (directly or indirectly) to the Mars project!

Would you be interested in setting up a Science Friday topic in the Other Space Advocacy Index?

The Phoenix water problem/challenge topic is fairly narrow in focus, and the topics you've shown seem (to me at least) to fit in many existing topics.

Your call!

See the Space Show topic as a model.

(th)

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#333 2022-10-22 18:32:19

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,787

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

More to the draught that is hitting yes, the Mississippi River and its tributaries have dropped to record lows is an understatement when there were months ago when it looked like a viable method to get water, but it does not look so good now.
More to that story is that The US Army Corps of Engineers is dredging the Mississippi River and racing to keep the sea from contaminating drinking water

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#334 2022-11-17 18:43:55

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,049

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

For SpaceNut re #333

This evening's news (on a local channel) included a long interview with officials involved in dealing with the low-water conditions of the Mississippi River.

The official explained that the US government (and all junior partners) have worked out procedures for dealing with flooding on the Mississippi.  The have almost NOTHING in place to deal with low water, because it has happened so seldom in the past.

The quote below is anther report on the difficulty of living in Arizona right now....

https://www.yahoo.com/news/faucets-pois … 39799.html

NBC News
Faucets poised to run dry for hundreds of Arizona residents by year's end

Deon J. Hampton
Thu, November 17, 2022 at 6:06 PM

RIO VERDE FOOTHILLS, Ariz. — More than 500 homes in this affluent desert community that boasts mountain views, ample trees and ranches hidden in the crooks of scrubby hills will run out of water by year's end as drought tightens its grip on the West.

Residents of Rio Verde Foothills outside Scottsdale have tried for years to resolve the looming crisis to no avail as the deadline to stop their water deliveries draws closer, forcing individual homeowners to find their own sources of water for drinking, bathing, washing dishes or doing their laundry.

“It’s going to be really ugly and terrible for our homeowners and landowners,” said Karen Nabity, who has lived in Rio Verde Foothills for seven years. “Some of us will borrow water from a friend’s well, others will have to pay a water hauler from far away.”

Rio Verde Foothills resident Karen Nabity. (Dean J. Hampton / NBC News)

As climate change makes the Western United States hotter and drier, the looming crisis in Rio Verde Foothills exemplifies how cities and states could be forced to vie for a diminishing amount of the natural resource.

The rural community of about 2,200 homes in unincorporated Maricopa County does not have its own water system, and most residents get their water from private wells on their properties. But more than 500 homeowners rely strictly on truck haulers to deliver water from a standpipe in Scottsdale. Another 200 whose wells are running dry periodically use the water haulers, as well, residents say.

But a year ago, Scottsdale notified Rio Verde homeowners that its water supply would be limited to city residents only starting Jan. 1, 2023, barring trucking companies from purchasing and exporting its water.

The notice came nearly a decade after Scottsdale first asked Rio Verde residents to search for an alternative water source, city officials said.

Scottsdale Water, the municipal utility, said the decision was one element of a larger contingency plan by the Central Arizona Project, which delivers water from the Colorado River to central and southern Arizona, to reduce its consumption. Scottsdale residents also were urged to reduce their usage as a first step toward more stringent restrictions.

The contingency plan was activated after the federal Bureau of Reclamation, which oversees Colorado River operations, declared a "Tier 1" shortage in August 2021 for the first time. The declaration reduces the amount of water Arizona, Nevada and Mexico can get from the river, which supplies water to about 40 million people in the Western U.S. The tier goes up as river levels go down, with Tier 3 being the most severe.

Some Rio Verde Foothills residents said they don't know how such an important issue could have dragged on so long without a resolution.

“It’s a priority because why wouldn’t we want to solve this problem,” said Jennifer Simpson, who was drawn to Rio Verde Foothills 23 years ago by its wide-open spaces.

Rio Verde Foothills resident Jennifer Simpson. (Dean J. Hampton / NBC News)
Rio Verde Foothills resident Jennifer Simpson. (Dean J. Hampton / NBC News)
Maricopa County officials said they can't fix the problem because they're not water providers. Scottsdale officials said they have no other option because their first commitment is to their own residents.

In Rio Verde Foothills, a sprawling community bisected by horse ranches and dusty gravel roads, the impending cutoff is likely to translate into much higher costs to have water shipped in from locations at least 60 miles away.

Some property owners thought they had solved the problem when they banded together to try to create their own water improvement district. But the plan was dashed this year when the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors voted down their petition, saying the majority of residents didn't want the proposed district because it could potentially lead to some of their properties being condemned to build a new water delivery system.

Rio Verde Foothills. (Deon J. Hampton / NBC News)

A Canada-based water company, Epcor Utilities, filed an application in October to supply Rio Verde Foothills with water, said Nick Debus, a spokesman for the Arizona Corporation Commission, a state agency that regulates private water.

If the project were approved, he said, the utility would have to acquire land, construct a standpipe and drill a new well, which could take two to three years.

Though water supply costs vary widely, rates for Rio Verde residents would increase exponentially to $20 for 1,000 gallons of water delivered, according to the application. The average Scottsdale resident pays $1.65 for 1,000 gallons and residents of nearby Glendale pay 33 cents for the same amount, according to KPNX, the NBC affiliate in Phoenix. Collectively, Rio Verde uses 48 million gallons of water a year, according to its residents.

Thomas Loquvam, general counsel for Epcor, said the commission asked the utility to provide water for residents, who would foot the bill for the project, resulting in the higher rates. Only homes built before 2024 would receive water from the proposed district, he added.

Although unfamiliar with the details, Rio Verde Foothills resident Adam Zingg said he prefers Epcor over a water improvement district because the latter would create another layer of government.

“We need as a community to find a solution,” he said. “I’m sure that if there’s no access to water, we’d be up in arms.”

Many Rio Verde Foothills residents say they feel abandoned.

“I’m frustrated and flabbergasted,” said Simpson, the 23-year resident. “We’re sitting here still waiting.”

This article was originally published on NBCNews.com

I've heard from my Phoenix contact since the election settled.

Nothing could be discussed, considered or even thought about until the governorship was determined.

I'm hoping that citizens will begin to think about and to converse about alternatives for the future.

If any news comes my way, I'll pass it along.

Small Modular Nuclear Reactors may get a surprising boost from the Russian invasion of Ukraine ... I'm not sure where I picked up this hint, but the hint was that the US and Ukraine may be thinking about a crash program to roll out SMR's to take the place of the old-style-traditional-Soviet reactors that Vladimir Putin is putting out of business as fast as his rocket crews can light fuses.

A massive rollout of SMR's for Ukraine ** could ** (theoretically) smooth the way for their adoption in the US.

(th)

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#335 2022-11-17 19:28:52

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,787

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

One issue for any nation that has SMR's is that the enemy can use them for terrorism when they invade as its been shown so more of these spread out could cause an even large problem to a nation trying to wage war but that is for other places for discusion.

I saw another topic with that same title with more facts.

faucets-poised-to-run-dry-for-hundreds-of-arizona-residents-by-year-s-end

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#336 2022-11-17 19:47:51

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 6,238

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

SpaceNut,

If all of the SMRs are kept on the same plot of land devoted to a much larger traditional reactor, then I fail to see how terrorism is a major concern.  The reactors could be buried a kilometer underground if there's that much hysteria over them.  I think that's a make-believe problem created by anti-nuclear activists.

If large parts of Arizona no longer receive water, you won't have to worry about any kind of terrorism, enemy action, etc.  Large numbers of people will die anyway.  This is what our mental midgets don't seem to understand.  People die much more quickly without water and power than they do from nuclear radiation from failed or intentionally sabotaged nuclear reactors.

How many people in Ukraine have died from AK-47s vs nuclear reactors?

How about starvation vs nuclear reactors?

If you wanna be afraid of something, then at least be afraid of something with a high probability and near-certain outcome (not too many people shot in the chest with an AK or PKM in the middle of winter survive).

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#337 2022-11-17 19:52:07

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,049

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

For SpaceNut re #335

My guess would be that Ukraine is going to come out of this unpleasant episode as a major power, and they will (I am guessing) be intolerant of further adventures by their neighbors.  Meanwhile, it appears (from little hints that keep popping up) that Putin himself is looking for a cushy nest in an African nation where he's set up an escape bungalow, with a nice $15,000,000 nest egg.

That might work, if folks who have lost confidence in him don't prevent his departure.

***
All that aside, my mention of SMR's for Ukraine was in the context of smoothing the way for their massive rollout in the US, where they could make a difference for such applications as desalinating sea water.   It is in the context of desalinating sea water that they first showed up in this topic.

(th)

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#338 2022-11-17 19:58:10

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,787

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

Kbd512, that is quite deep, and would be sufficient protection but can we construct it without any access point to them for servicing?

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#339 2022-11-17 20:29:02

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 6,238

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

SpaceNut,

The reactors would still require servicing, but the point is that getting direct physical access to the reactor without the say-so of the operator is much more difficult.  NORAD is not utterly impossible to break into, but try doing it sometime to see how well that goes.  If you don't have your own army, a giant crane to lift the reactor out of its hole, your own radiation protection, your own tools to get at the fissile material, etc, then how well does that work in real life?  How many people have successfully used force to break into NORAD or Area 51?

Getting onto a military base is not impossible, either, but walking out with nuclear weapons is an entirely different story.

All the supposedly "stolen" US military weapons have probably been pilfered by our own government and diverted to whatever black ops project they don't want you to know about.

Given the number of angry nutters in this country and every other country, why haven't we seen any successful break-ins?

It must not be so easy when the Police, the US Army, and rednecks with rifles will either shoot you on-sight or hunt you to the ends of the Earth, for the rest of your life.

My surmise is that bribing a ballistic missile officer in the US Air Force is also not an easy thing to get away with.  You may find someone willing to sell out their country, but that's not the issue you'd face under that scenario.  The problem involves bribing all of them at the same time, which is near-impossible, because someone will have a problem with their children potentially being incinerated in a nuclear fireball, so even if one or even both of the officers with the codes and the weapon can be bribed, unless you can bribe everyone else in our military, then you'll be hunted for the rest of your life.

That is the practical explanation as to why nobody has done it.  Getting everyone to look the other way requires a complete societal breakdown, kinda like what happened in Russia after the Cold War.  Under the old Soviet system, that would never happen.

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#340 2022-11-22 16:58:17

SpaceNut
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#341 2022-11-24 18:46:20

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,787

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

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#342 2022-11-30 20:05:32

SpaceNut
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#343 2022-12-01 10:05:43

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,049

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

ForSpaceNut re #342

Thank you for finding and posting this report!

The first thing that jumped out at me was the concern about airborne contamination of the captured water.  That would (or could) be a concern for cloud captured water, as would be the case with the fleet of drones envisioned in one of the "cloud" topics.

The Marine Corps is calling this device an Atmospheric Portable-water Sustainment Unit, APSU for short. Combined with what it calls the Lightweight Water Purification System, it essentially grabs the moisture from humid air and converts it to liquid. From there, it purifies the water to ensure it's drinkable, as even airborne water can contain trace amounts of atmospheric chemicals. It's more than just a proof of concept at this point, too.

The article reports that the Marines are using technology developed by:
https://snowbirdwatertechnologies.com/

Apparently the system is a dehumidifier with a water purifier integrated into the package.

(th)

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#344 2022-12-01 19:46:45

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,787

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

Toxins and other stuff have, always been a problem that has become and even higher levels of these.

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