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#1 2022-11-24 13:18:18

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,067

Geothermal and Geostored Energy

Edit 11/25/2022, I have placed a condensed list of references, (Library) in post #6, for this topic.



OK, with the permission of the high and mighty of this site, I propose the above title for something that has been seeming to emerge.

While Geothermal is discussed, and of great interest, I feel that it has a sibling, which could use some discussion.  If the high power allows it, then I will initiate this.

By the way I seem to have invented a word, but of course not the concept that it might enclose, not all of the versions anyway.

I decided to branch to this from "Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.", from post #96.

The Geostorage could of course involve short term thermal storage, but I am thinking more in terms of seasonal energy storage, of long period transient energy abundances.

My first encounter with this was from the Finns: https://euroweeklynews.com/2022/07/06/f … sing-sand/  (Query: "Finish thermal storage in sand").

Solar and Wind can be of that sort, and perhaps Hydro and others are also similar in being seasonal.  I will start with Solar to begin to make the argument:

I think that this is a US centric article, but perhaps other places will be similar.
Quote:

Average Solar Energy Per Year, Month and Day
By: Anne Lauer

https://shrinkthatfootprint.com/average … 20climates.
Quote:

In general, solar production is higher in the summer months when there is more daylight and solar panels can produce more electricity. Solar production typically decreases in the winter months due to shorter days and less sunlight. However, solar production can still be significant in the winter, especially in sunny climates.

Quote: (You can find this in a tabular form in the article)

Solar panel output per month*    20 solar panel output per month
January    100.02 kWh/m²    24.00 kWh    480.09 kWh
February    112.92 kWh/m²    27.10 kWh    542.04 kWh
March    154.46 kWh/m²    37.07 kWh    741.41 kWh
April    174.70 kWh/m²    41.93 kWh    838.57 kWh
May    192.35 kWh/m²    46.16 kWh    923.27 kWh
June    196.92 kWh/m²    47.26 kWh    945.22 kWh
July    204.58 kWh/m²    49.10 kWh    981.99 kWh
August    192.91 kWh/m²    46.30 kWh    925.98 kWh
September    168.41 kWh/m²    40.42 kWh    808.36 kWh
October    139.07 kWh/m²    33.38 kWh    667.52 kWh
November    106.04 kWh/m²    25.45 kWh    508.98 kWh
December    89.04 kWh/m²    21.37 kWh    427.41 kWh
We assume solar energy conversation is 15% efficient and a solar panel is standard 1.6 m²
Average solar radiation per year for the United States

So, January=0.77 kWh, July=1.58 kWh, apparently per day.

But the higher latitude, you go, more likely this becomes more significant.
I will skip to the next post.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-25 09:38:59)


Done.

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#2 2022-11-24 13:33:19

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,787

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

Yes, a plus for those that face cold winters as the summer's energy supplied are short lived and only possible to some through concentration and then storage for later. Not all areas are equal in that ability to have sufficient solar to make use of due to location of any setup.

Since storage is possible for many working media it's going to be a question of energy input to efficiency of months later being able to have that save thermal energy.

Annual-Sunshine-map.jpg


How much energy do you use to heat your home, and what’s the cost?

How to convert your energy use into kWh
Depending where you live, and the type of fuel you use, you might be calculating your energy use in one of many different units. Just like with measuring water in litres or pints, there are lots of different ways to measure energy.

As we explained above, it’s helpful to convert your energy use into kWh. Find the unit your energy use is measured in – whether that’s therms or gigajoules – and multiply it by these numbers:

For therms – multiply by 29.3
For tons of oil equivalent – multiply by 11,630
For gigajoule – multiply by 278
For kilocalorie – multiply by 0.00116

most everybody uses BTU's

Of course, you can have heat via hot air or by baseboard hot water to heat the air of the home. I think that requires a heat source of 160' F to be able to warm the home.

The average temperature output of a heat pump is 85°F to 92°F in heat mode without auxiliary heat.

The table below compares the output from a heat pump compared to electric and gas furnaces.

Heat Source Output Ranges    Output Temperature
Heat Pump without Aux Heat:    85-92°F
Heat Pump with Aux Heat:           105-125°F
Gas Furnace:                           130-140°F
Electric Furnace:                   105-125°F

How to calculate the right size air source heat pump
Household type                       Recommended ASHP output
2-bed house/flat                            5 kW
3-bed house with poor insulation            9 kW
4-bed house with good insulation    9 kW
4-bed house with poor insulation            16 kW
5-bed house with good insulation    16 kW


Other uses are possible for that stored heat source as you noted hot water comes to mind.

What size hot water cylinder do you need?

Generally speaking, a typical domestic household will use around 35 to 45 litres of water for every person

Water use habits    Needs per person per day
Low use                    20-30 litres
Average use            30-50 litres
High use                    50-70 litres

That means typically, a 4-person household will need a hot water cylinder that can provide around 200 litres daily. That said, you won’t necessarily need a 200-litre capacity hot water cylinder, as some heating systems may partially reheat water throughout the day.

https://inspectapedia.com/heat/Current_ … _Table.php

https://isolarparts.com/blogs/company-p … ole-winter

The generally accepted BTU per square foot heating rule of thumb ranges from 30 BTU to 60 BTU per square foot. BTU or ‘British Thermal Unit’ is a unit of heat. 1 BTU is enough heat to raise the temperature of 1 pound of water by 1°F. US households require anywhere from 20,000 BTU to 300,000 BTU of heating output in the winter.

house sq ft tables for btu calculation
https://www.pickhvac.com/calculator/heating-btu/

https://learnmetrics.com/heating-btu-calculator/

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ener … _1463.html
Energy stored in a 1000-liter water tank heated to 90' C

https://www.contractingbusiness.com/res … asurements

The exiting tank temperature - return temp is equal to the pumping rate x gallons for the tank x temp difference is the number of btu used

The flow rate is the period of time that the hot water is in the systems length.

https://www.advantageengineering.com/fy … FYI288.php

So, it appears for use we need to know the volume and what we are expecting to do with it.

It is something that applies to Mars as well since we know that we need that heat to be available for when we are longer able to get it from the conditions that global dust storm happen.

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#3 2022-11-24 13:37:48

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,067

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

Yes, I appreciate the participation Spacenut!

As I see it you can drill wells and stuff heat down them, very high heat possibly.  It all depends on your method.

For solar electric, then of course electric.
For solar thermal then of course thermal or electric.
For wind, likely electric, but you could directly heat water.

For a geothermal well, you might augment it by running an electric current through the water of the well network, and so then store energy from times of abundance, which could be caused by a boost of energy from a "Seasonal" source.  A high current and low voltage, most likely.

But you might push hot water down as well.  It might be that you could have a sort of separation from the geothermal part and have apart for seasonal energy storage.  I am guessing that options will show up.

And as I see it, I am not a purist.  I don't have a problem with doing further heating with Hydrocarbons as needed, with the hope to eventually go to a power to hydrocarbons ability down the way.

If we could sink Carbon literally into the ocean by shining sunlight into certain carefully selected areas, then the stored Carbon in the atmosphere could be reduced, and in my world that gives more permission to burn hydrocarbons.  So, entities that can do that should somehow be paid to do it.  I have recently speculated on heliostats on the Moon to do that into remote areas of the Oceans where there may be a relative lack of threatened species.

I guess I will take a brake now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-24 13:45:58)


Done.

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#4 2022-11-24 18:08:34

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,787

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

Void thanks for giving me a poke to go do research again on whether this is a viable heating solution for my needs.

So, for solar thermal collection and storage
How to Size a Solar Thermal Storage Tank and Collector Array

Calculating_solar_collector_surface_area_in_the_USA_thumb.JPG

Then again you can supplement it as well if the need is higher than what you can collect or store
https://www.lowimpact.org/posts/home-ma … al_store-4

https://www.energy.gov/eere/buildings/t … gy-storage

Of course, proof could be just doing a hot water system
http://diy-alternative-energy.com/build … ater-tank/

In areas where it freezes you will need to change to a different working fluid possibly food glycol or other that are run through a heat exchanger before its stored.

I have 1 location where I could build a sort of vertical trough collector and hide it within a pleasant shape.

barnegat-lighthouse-paul-ward.jpg

I would slice the face open to expose the tubing and place a glass face over it to trap the heat inside the reflective surface. Since the side towards the road would look like a real lighthouse it will not be offensive. The house is about 80 ft away and I could bring the heat inside the house into storage via the heat exchangers. From inside I would do zone baseboard heat from the stored heat.

edit update for location

I have near the road that goes in front of the property on either side of the driveway a pad area of approximate 12 sq ft on one side maximum to work on for the solar tower and on the opposite, it could be larger, but it requires removal of trees that would block the area partially.
It can have an opening that is less that 90' degrees to shine light into and closer to possibly 60' degrees would be its maximum. I can see the opening having a Frenzel Lense shaped glass and an inner glass to seal the thermal chamber and to gather as much solar energy throughout the day without any moving parts.
As night shade might be implied to trap the residual energy so as to not loss any during the night and would open each day if solar energy is present.
Depending on uplift of media to absorb the heat inside we will need to see what can be had as that may be the limiter for how high the tower can be. The riser collector will be similar to the evacuate tubes or the classic base board heating unit in that it's got an absorbing fin to conduct the heat to the tubing.

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#5 2022-11-24 20:16:24

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,067

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

Your ambition is very impressive.

Done


Done.

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#6 2022-11-25 09:24:27

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,067

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

Transplanted materials from "Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power."
I imagine I missed some good stuff from other members, but below is at least a compact library of appropriate items.

From (th) #45:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61mz4vr1EeE

Associated:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtQmGPmyLA0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypDQ4t_lIMo

From Spacenut #90:
https://electrek.co/2022/11/21/heres-ho … ys-future/

From Void #82:
OTEC associated geothermal:
https://www.maritime-executive.com/edit … eat%20sink
Eavor: #82:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=8d … M%3DHDRSC3

From Spacenut, Heat Pump system #91:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/hom … 59ac411c6a

--------

While most articles indicate that the Earth's heat comes from the original accretion of the planet, and from radioactive decay, I am of the opinion that the solar wind has been inducing heat into the Earth and other planets over billions of years also.

This article slightly supports the idea: https://solarsystemwiki.org/solar-wind. … %20density. Quote:

When solar output increases, the Earth grows warmer. Sun spots and the solar wind are both byproducts of the Sun’s internal processes. While a greater solar wind does not mean that the Earth will get hotter, increased activity in the Sun that makes it hotter will warm the Earth while increasing the solar wind’s speed and density.

My opinion is that although the solar wind does not directly reach the Earth itself, it warps the Earth's magnetic field like a punching bag.  Bending and fluctuating the magnetic field lines, should heat molecules deep in the Earth.

As for the Moon and Mars, a tiny bit of that where a fossil field exists, and also, I expect that the magnetics of the magnetic field induced in the collision of the solar wind with the atmosphere, (Mars), or the body itself, (Moon), should be felt internally.

I seem to recall that both the Moon and Mars appear now to be warmer inside than was expected.  I think magnetic field lines could be part of why.

I do recall articles some time ago that suggested that planets around red dwarf flare stars, might have magma oceans underground from very active stellar winds, so the idea is not entirely unthinkable.  Inductive heating would be the situation.

Here is an article on inductive heating: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_heating

So, in modeling the geothermal heat potential for other worlds, I feel that that should be considered.  For instance, it might help to heat oceans for Ceres, maybe Pluto, although Pluto is a bit farfetched.

[Added 11/25/2022 from "Index» Not So Free Chat» When Science becomes perverted by Politics." Post #630:

This seems like a rational opinion.  Some here will like it, perhaps some others will not like it as much.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=%2 … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

“There’s no emergency” – dissident climatologist Dr Judith Curry on climate change
YouTube · 7,000+ views · 11/22/2022 · by BizNewsTv

Done.

Added 11/25/2022 Spacenut has provided very good wind information in post #20 of this topic.


Done

Last edited by Void (2022-11-27 20:38:47)


Done.

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#7 2022-11-25 09:43:49

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,067

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

I did create this topic with the notion of compatibility of Geothermal with intermittent energy sources.

I like the idea of Tesla or similar roof installations with a short-term energy storage at the home, and that then linked to a Geothermal and Geostorage Utility, as a long-term Generation/Battery.

My liking for this, in part is that it then encourages some autonomous individuality and may be compatible with traditional family groupings where well adapted child rearing may happen.

The problem with population is likely to be too few people, at least for robust cultures.  As for large scale mental illness in our cultures, I don't think any number of resources will straiten them out.  Only time, maturation, and "Natural" selection can do that.  The best thing to do is let them go to the side and do what they will do, as long as it does not involve mass rape and murder, or the damaging of the healthy social tissues.  After all, they should be able to do anything they want without us judging them, shouldn't they? smile

Leaving social issues aside, I suppose that geothermal might become so good that other energy sources would be ignored.  But we shall see.  For now, I think that the blending of sources of energy makes sense.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-25 09:57:33)


Done.

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#8 2022-11-25 18:02:19

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,787

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

The storage of thermal energy deals with not only the media type but the temperature as well for that working fluid of choice. This means a wide range of materials can be used to make that possible. With this is the number of hours for the volume of stored heat comes to mind as well.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/buildings/t … gy-storage

https://www.cromcorp.com/services/therm … rage-tank/

Just as important is how you are intending to use that stored energy.

Of course you can buy or build depending on your ability and funding to do so. Since this is indirectly either looking to create a profit or income or is for a cost offset these are all part of the choices that one might make.

Other coices are to have it indoors, above ground and even below the surface in the ground are also cost controlling means for the proct and use.

The we can also get into the flow battery and other means of storing the collected energy for later use as well.

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#9 2022-11-25 18:15:14

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,049

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

For SpaceNut .... your interest in geothermal energy, and the related topic of geothermal energy storage, appears (to me at least) to have some room to grow. Please continue developing your ideas.

Related question: is there a geothermal energy project in New Hampshire?

I assume there must be at least a few geothermal energy exchange installations (heat exchangers for home or business heating and cooling).

A geothermal energy project is a (very) different project .... instead of exchanging energy between the Earth soil and the air, a geothermal energy project would (presumably) seek to pull an excess of energy from the Earth, and sink it into the atmosphere.

Here is a web site that discusses heat pumps ...

https://www.epa.gov/rhc/geothermal-heat … chnologies

I am not talking about heat pumps, attractive as they may be.

They require investment of energy to move liquids around.

A geothermal energy system would ** provide ** excess energy, so that the owner of the system is able to heat and cool the home, ** and ** have excess energy to sell on the open market, to (eventually) pay back the loan needed to build the system.

Investment in a dam on a river is an example of investment that eventually repays the lender, because the system, once built and maintained, is able to generate a steady flow of income.

A well designed and well executed geothermal construction project should be able pay for itself over a period of time, and then sustain the owner (individual or group) for as long as maintenance is performed as needed.

(th)

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#10 2022-11-25 18:25:32

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,049

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

For SpaceNut re geothermal energy investment opportunities ...

Members of this forum do not appear to be (or admit to being) investors....

However, there are many investors in the world of 2022, and a few are looking at geothermal energy as a potential opportunity.

Google came up with this set of snippets when I ask about activity in this area:

All
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About 7,590,000 results (0.50 seconds)
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Energy For The Future - Outlook On Energy
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About 7,590,000 results (0.50 seconds)
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Energy For The Future - Outlook On Energy
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Promoting a Better Understanding Of the Issues Shaping the World’s Energy Needs. Learn More About Our Innovations As A Leader In The Energy Industry....
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New Alternatives Fund - Investing Responsibly
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Geothermal power investments can be defined as investments that are made in companies engaged in the geothermal energy space.
Types of Geothermal Energy... · Top Geothermal Energy...
People also ask
Is geothermal energy a good investment?
How do I start a geothermal energy business?
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Feedback

DOE to Invest Up to $165 Million to Advance Domestic ...https://www.energy.gov › articles › doe-invest-165-mill...
Jul 28, 2022 — The Geothermal Energy from Oil and Gas Demonstrated Engineering (GEODE) initiative will provide $10 million to form a consortium of experts to ...

Geothermal Energy Stocks to Watch - Investment Uhttps://investmentu.com › geothermal-energy-stocks
Aug 5, 2021 — Geothermal Energy Stocks That Could Heat Up · 1. Chevron Corporation (NYSE: CVX) · 2. Eversource Energy (NYSE:ES) · 3. Ormat Technologies (NYSE: ...
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3 Renewable Energy Stocks to Buy If You Are Betting on ...https://investorplace.com › ... › Stocks to Buy
Jun 21, 2021 — 3 Renewable Energy Stocks to Buy If You Are Betting on Geothermal · Geothermal Stocks: Ormat Technologies (ORA) · Polaris Infrastructure (RAMPF).

Investing in Geothermal Energy Stocks | What to Watch in 2022https://www.valuethemarkets.com › Analysis
Feb 28, 2022 — Geothermal energy stocks, along with other renewable energy stocks, are enduring a market sell-off despite surging demand for clean energy. This ...
Ormat Technologies (nyse... · Berkshire Hathaway Energy... · Climeon (sto: Climbe-B)

Why Aren't Investors Interested In Geothermal Energy? - Nasdaqhttps://www.nasdaq.com › articles › why-arent-investor...
Mar 11, 2022 — While some governments and larger energy firms are investing in geothermal energy, it appears to be mainly research centers and startups that ...

Why oil giants like Chevron and BP are investing in ... - CNBChttps://www.cnbc.com › 2021/05/07 › why-oil-giants-li...
May 7, 2021 — Over the last few years, a number of start-ups in the geothermal space have gained traction, such as Eavor Technologies, Fervo Energy, Sage ...

6 Best Geothermal Stocks (2022 Guide)https://www.dontworkanotherday.com › geothermal-sto...
Jun 15, 2022 — The final option for investment into geothermal energy stocks will be buying shares of stock for the company that eventually runs the plant.
Benefits Of Geothermal... · What Are Geothermal Stocks? · How To Invest In Geothermal...

INVESTING IN GEOTHERMAL POWER =https://www.cif.org › files › knowledge-documents
PDF
long-term geothermal energy strategy and investing in ... 3 All CPI/CIF analytical work on public financing for geothermal power, including case studies, ...
4 pages

Geothermal Energy Stocks - Carbon Collectivehttps://www.carboncollective.co › climate-index › geot...
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Geothermal power investments can be defined as investments that are made in companies engaged in the geothermal energy space.
Types of Geothermal Energy... · Top Geothermal Energy...
People also ask
Is geothermal energy a good investment?
How do I start a geothermal energy business?
Why should we invest more on geothermal energy development?
What are challenges and opportunities for geothermal energy?
Feedback

DOE to Invest Up to $165 Million to Advance Domestic ...https://www.energy.gov › articles › doe-invest-165-mill...
Jul 28, 2022 — The Geothermal Energy from Oil and Gas Demonstrated Engineering (GEODE) initiative will provide $10 million to form a consortium of experts to ...

Geothermal Energy Stocks to Watch - Investment Uhttps://investmentu.com › geothermal-energy-stocks
Aug 5, 2021 — Geothermal Energy Stocks That Could Heat Up · 1. Chevron Corporation (NYSE: CVX) · 2. Eversource Energy (NYSE:ES) · 3. Ormat Technologies (NYSE: ...
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3 Renewable Energy Stocks to Buy If You Are Betting on ...https://investorplace.com › ... › Stocks to Buy
Jun 21, 2021 — 3 Renewable Energy Stocks to Buy If You Are Betting on Geothermal · Geothermal Stocks: Ormat Technologies (ORA) · Polaris Infrastructure (RAMPF).

Investing in Geothermal Energy Stocks | What to Watch in 2022https://www.valuethemarkets.com › Analysis
Feb 28, 2022 — Geothermal energy stocks, along with other renewable energy stocks, are enduring a market sell-off despite surging demand for clean energy. This ...
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Why Aren't Investors Interested In Geothermal Energy? - Nasdaqhttps://www.nasdaq.com › articles › why-arent-investor...
Mar 11, 2022 — While some governments and larger energy firms are investing in geothermal energy, it appears to be mainly research centers and startups that ...

Why oil giants like Chevron and BP are investing in ... - CNBChttps://www.cnbc.com › 2021/05/07 › why-oil-giants-li...
May 7, 2021 — Over the last few years, a number of start-ups in the geothermal space have gained traction, such as Eavor Technologies, Fervo Energy, Sage ...

6 Best Geothermal Stocks (2022 Guide)https://www.dontworkanotherday.com › geothermal-sto...
Jun 15, 2022 — The final option for investment into geothermal energy stocks will be buying shares of stock for the company that eventually runs the plant.
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INVESTING IN GEOTHERMAL POWER =https://www.cif.org › files › knowledge-documents
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long-term geothermal energy strategy and investing in ... 3 All CPI/CIF analytical work on public financing for geothermal power, including case studies, ...
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Geothermal Energy Stocks in the Climate Index ; 0.26%. Ormat Technologies, Inc. (ORA) ; 0.24%. AAON, Inc. (AAON).

(th)

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#11 2022-11-25 19:09:44

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,787

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

The issue for geo any thing is that searches return HVAC information.

I found 1 article that called out MIT finding a place for geothermal in New Hampshire, up in the Conway area that they believe it's from radioactive decay.

here are results for that in the search field
If true geothermal arrives here, it’ll have to be around Conway

geothermal-map.jpg

http://news.mit.edu/2007/mit-led-panel- … rgy-source

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environm … ercritical

https://nhenergy.blogspot.com/2013/05/b … n-new.html

There are a good number of locations where we can access this energy, and as the US geothermal heat flow map below shows, these red colored areas lie largely in the western portion of the US. To generate electricity from geothermal sources, one needs rock temperatures in excess of 212oF at reasonable depths. Interestingly, on close examination of the geothermal map below, one can see that there is a hotspot in NH located in the White Mountains area. At depths of 6.5 miles, rock temperatures in this area are in excess of 400oF due to the abnormally high natural radioactivity of the granite in this area. This is a source of energy we might have to tap one day.

US_Geothermal_Map.png

geothermal-potential-map-of-northeast.jpg

A portion of a 2011 analysis of geothermal potential in the U.S., with colors showing estimated temperature 6.5 kilometers below the surface. The orange spot in N.H. is the Conway area

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#12 2022-11-25 20:34:12

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,067

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

My state is not very promising for geothermal and is a cold state, but we have very warm/hot summers with considerable sunlight, so I am very interested in Geostorage, for such heat, from the warm season to the colder season.  And we just don't know what the cost to drill deep will be or how deep they will ultimately be able to drill.

Eavor seems to posture as if eventually it will be geothermal anywhere.  But until then and also perhaps after then I am interested in Geostorage.  But it will be great if they get it geothermal good enough for your state.

Done


Done.

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#13 2022-11-26 00:19:16

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 6,238

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

Void,

The US consumes 4,000,000,000,000,000 Watt-hours of electricity per year.

If half of that had to be stored as thermal energy in water, then we'd need just over 67 cubic kilometers of water to do it.

If we store an equivalent amount of energy in gasoline that we burn in a 50% efficient internal combustion engine, then the storage volume shrinks to 325,190,033 gallons, or 0.001231 cubic kilometers.  We have to make the gasoline, obviously, but enclosing the gasoline in a tank farm is clearly much easier to do.

It's true that hot water is easier to store than gasoline, but not when the total volume is over 54,427X greater and we're talking about storing 5,479,452,054,795 Watt-hours (5.479TWh) of energy for daily use.  This also assumes 100% efficient hot water energy storage.  How likely is that to occur?

If we're synthesizing gasoline from recycled water and CO2, then the size and thus volume of materials required shrinks by orders of magnitude, even if we're using heat from the Sun or the Earth itself.

Closing the loop on CO2 recycling is the easiest and simplest technological challenge to overcome.  CO2 recycling requires no development of nonexistent new technology and only uses existing energy production and storage technology that's been proven capable of powering technologically advanced human civilization over the past century, which also saw the greatest amount of technological and living conditions advancements for all of humanity.

For humanity's sake, we must go "Back To The Future", where everything old is new again.  This assumes that the end goal is to provide energy for everyone and for human civilization to continue advancement.  That may not be the end goal of people who hate other people, but for people who don't hate others or themselves, it should be viewed as a shared opportunity for greater prosperity for our children and future generations of humans.  Recycling is good but poverty is bad, so recycle the most energy-dense stuff we actually know how to make using our Acme Petrochemical Starter Set, and call it a day.

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#14 2022-11-26 09:56:26

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,787

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

The regulation differences of residential and of commercial use is why an individual is not able to do these things on their own property no matter where you live so get in line with the controlling ordinance is a long list of those saying no and that includes the abutter.

Cars running on gasoline have been with us for almost 140 years, and diesels for almost 80 years. More than 1 billion vehicles on the planet use those fuels today.

https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2021/06/ … the-world/

Need to know how many cars there are on Earth in 2023? Here is how many cars there are in the world, including trucks, broken down by world region.

1). Asia: 531 million vehicles on the road
2). Europe: 405.3 million vehicles (282 million in EU plus 123 million in non-EU countries)1
3). North America: 351 million vehicles
4). South America: 83 million vehicles
5). Middle East: 49 million vehicles
6). Africa: 26 million vehicles
7). Antarctica: about 50 vehicles

So each car in America can have a gallon...

America has lots of sources for carbon beside the air and it can be caught before it gets there but its not.

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#15 2022-11-26 12:01:39

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,049

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

For SpaceNut re #14

Are you up for a comparison of localities?

If you are, I'd like to propose we call our respective authorities and ask what rules govern setting up a geothermal well.

I'm assuming the rules for heat exchange systems must be in place in both cities/counties, because those systems are often installed by those who can afford them.

I expect you will turn out to be right in your pessimistic view, but even a dedicated pessimist can occasionally be wrong.

(th)

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#16 2022-11-26 12:12:45

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,067

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

For all three of you: (HOW DARE YOU!!!!) smile

kdb512, in my hypothetical housing project, Randy Redneck drives a gas car, and his wife Greta of Arc, drives an electric.  How the gas is made is not a central part of this issue.  We presume that if we have an energy source like electricity, that is involved in the creation.

And as far as thermal storage, that would be in the rock of the wells for the most part, not primarily in a mass of water.

Spacenut, I see this as a utility holding the geothermal function, while the housing project also includes the distributed solar power panels.
If you are talking about an individual heat pump with geostorage, well I guess you might get trouble from the locals on that.  Depends on where you live.

(th), zoning is not so much a hot issue.  It will impact economics, but there are many places in the world, and I don't think this is the time to obsess about the zoning.

-------

While there are likely many variations of the "Current Main Scheme" that I am promoting, the "Current Main Scheme would involve the better utilization photo electric power method, power distribution methods, and the geowell(s).

It is pretty obvious that if you are operating in a geothermally rich situation, presumably if the technology eventually allows it, you might exclude any other power source for the most part.

In a geothermally lean situation, consideration of what I am presenting for Geostorage, may be valid.  A lean or rich situation will depend on the expense of the drilled wells and the long term value of their output.  Goestorage may or may not be valid for some situations.  Maybe the wells will become so cheap to drill really deep that no one will bother with any solar or wind.  We do not know at this time.

Lets consider Texas and the Great Lakes areas.

For Texas the hot summer also offers solar that could be used for cooling, so that is a good fit, as maximum sunlight matches maximum thermal load.  (I think).

I guess for the great lakes area I could pick Minnesota, as it is of a climate similar to Southern Alberta, so we may then consider them both.
Alberta will have rather good geothermal, Minnesota will require deep, and I presume expensive drilling to get geothermal.

This Query: "geothermal energy map united states"
https://www.energy.gov/eere/geothermal/geothermal-maps
Image Quote: https://www.nrel.gov/gis/assets/images/ … nd-egs.jpg

So, you can see that the situation is different for the various states.

This is the best I have for Canada at this time: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Geo … _277217957

So, south Alberta is likely better for geothermal than is Minnesota, as I interpret it.

I have limited information for seasonal solar but this gives some idea: https://shrinkthatfootprint.com/average … 20climates

Again, from that chart: July=1.58 kWh, January=0.77 kWh
If you live in Texas that looks virtuous.  If Minnesota or Alberta, it says to me that you may not be capturing all the energy available in summer.  In truth some air conditioning can be expected, so it is not as bad as it might seem.

But still, if you have a sink to put that power into, then indeed you might, and so then also draw from it in January the rest of winter.

The Finns seem to think that the idea of storing seasonal energy has merit: https://euroweeklynews.com/2022/07/06/f … sing-sand/

So, I may not be wrong for every situation.

At higher latitudes, the seasonality of solar energy will be more extreme, I expect so this may typically be better for those locations.

There are various grades of stored/obtainable heat.  The lowest grade might ward off frost in a greenhouse, above that might be a central heating scheme, and then the lower efficiency electric generation, and then finally supercritical steam.

If you drill a relatively shallow well and rely on geothermal only then you will get only a low-grade heat at most, which might have a little value, but may very well not justify the cost of the installation.

But if you inject summer energy into it, you may do better.  While you could inject hot water, I would prefer to think of flowing electric currents though the well.

If you flow Direct Current, then you must rely on resistive heating.  If you flow Alternating Current, you may also get inductive heating because of inductive reactance.  If you have some kind of magnetics in your rock you might do fairly well, I am thinking.  This could be true for some locations, presuming you get below sedimentary rock.

In order to heat this block of rock up may take time.  But the natural geothermal may at least reduce or avoid thermal losses over a long period of time.

Now then it may be that this process could be done with well systems that are already very geothermally hot.  It becomes a question of if it is worthwhile?  I guess if you have thousand degrees, you might think no it is not worth it.  But what if you could hear it to 1200 degrees, and you put an extra heavy load on it?  Perhaps then when you are drawing heavy on it, the fluid temps might drop to 800 degrees in the dead of winter.

Randy Redneck works at the geothermal/Geo storage facility making gasoline, his wife Gretta of Arc does not need to know that.  We will just tell Gretta that we think that there are tasty bugs in the fields under the solar collectors and on the lawns that Gretta could eat, to divert the attention from that.

If the winter load is heavy then Randy can burn some Natural Gas at times, but we won't tell Gretta about that.  Perhaps we make the Natural Gas from electricity now, or maybe.....

We are CARBON SINNERS! and get it from shale.  Repent! You wicked Rednecks!

Randy and Gretta can sell electricity to the Utility in the sunny seasons and buy it in the darker seasons.  The Utility will need to charge for energy storage however, so Randy and Gretta get less per watt delivered to the utility than the utility gets for watt delivered back.  That's how it works, or you won't have a utility that is a storage and extraction business.

This reduces the necessary amount of electrical gear needed as the electrical service functions both ways.  While it is possible to sell electricity at this time, it is when the load is already saturated anyway, and your neighbors are likely doing the same thing.  But as geostorage may exist it is a market for the surplus energy that is produced at Randy and Greta's home estate.  A market in the summertime, and maybe spring and fall seasons.

So, perhaps this helps?

As for wind power, say from the high plains, I believe it could make a contribution to Texas, Alberta, and Minnesota also.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-26 13:09:15)


Done.

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#17 2022-11-26 14:42:38

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,067

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

So, now I feel more confident that for high latitude locations solar energy might be enhanced as suitable with inclusion into a geothermal/geostorage facility.

There then comes the question of water.  Recycling water needs energy and other material expenses.

But if we are to have populations on other worlds it will be strongly needed.  And so, to make places like the high plains of North America more habitable, water recycling may be useful.

I am not particularly offering any special new methods, but it can be noted that the Great Plains, has wind energy in abundance, and so that might be used to recycle water.  There is plenty of water for urban living, maybe suburban living, if you don't expend water on lawns.  Instead of lawns perhaps you would have enclosures with north facing windows, and solar panels on top.  I suppose that the solar panels might also be made to double as radiators to capture the night cold, in the warm seasons.

So, then you would have wind, which would possibly be intermittent on both the short term and the seasonal term.  I will see if I can find out.

Well, this is interesting.  Winds are fairly constant at the location tested: https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/@5080200/climate

I think that it is Kerney, Nebraska, USA

I think I see 9-14 mph as monthly wind speeds.

So, that suggests that depending on the windmills used, it could be a variable output.  So, what would you seek?  The lower bound of 9 mph?  or would you want to capitalize on the 12-14 mph available in many months?

If you had Geo storage, you indeed may try to get the max power as you could store excess wind electric as high temperature rock and water, and could draw electricity from such wells when desired.  At that location a fairly high latitude, so then seasonal solar might matter for the Geo storage.

July has about 9 mph
January 11 mph
April 14 mph

That looks pretty good, as you would have more solar power with the low wind speeds, and less when the wind speeds pick up a bit.

What about very high latitude of the North American continent?  Alaska: https://www.alaskasnewssource.com/conte … laska.html

For having oceans, I would think that Alaska would have some wind.  Similar for many locations in Canada.

But the land of the Midnight sun might do both geothermal and Geo storage, probably as a set.

So, perhaps solar makes sense in the far north.  And the recycling of water in those locations might involve greenhouses as part of the condensation process for the electric generation methods.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-26 15:06:38)


Done.

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#18 2022-11-26 15:03:05

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,787

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

Since in my area there were dug wells that can be dug down to a depth if not hitting rock quite easily to 30 ft and at a diameter of 3 of 4 ft of which one can use precast concrete section to make a sealed well from the bottom to the top to give a reservoir for the heat to go into from any source type.

Concrete-ring-well-step-by-step-construction-1.jpg

Concrete-ring-well-step-by-step-construction-3.jpg


Concrete-ring-well-step-by-step-construction-4.jpg

In looking at the issue of storage there is no reason not to do a horizontal storage if you have the property to do so with and it can still be a combination of plastics for a liner and prefab concrete tub in whatever diameter that is reasonable.

There is also no reason to keep it round at all if you are good at foundation style pouring

Build a 6500-gallon concrete water tank for $1500

ainsworth101-03.jpg

Of course, which ever method you will need to insulate the outer wall from the ground to keep it from sinking into the ground's natural cooler temperature.


All of this is based on volumes and money available to achieve any sort of goal.

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#19 2022-11-26 15:08:32

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,067

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

Indeed, very good.  The way I see it is it could be likely that homeowners and such would have some local storage, and possibly export some energy from solar, and then as backup have a collective (Capitalistic) utility.

Done.


Done.

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#20 2022-11-26 15:17:51

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,787

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

Lets see if I can get the wind into this post

State wind installed capacity

data for different altitudes
https://windexchange.energy.gov/maps-data

database of what is installed where
https://eerscmap.usgs.gov/uswtdb/

live wind flow pattern
https://zoom.earth/maps/wind-speed/

The way I see it is if you know, what is around you; then a good choice can be made on wind construction to energy.
https://www.nrel.gov/gis/wind.html

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#21 2022-11-26 15:46:41

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,067

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

I really liked that wind data Spacenut.  I have made a note of your post #20 in the notes of post #6.  Although not a perfect method, I sort of like having that index to note the really good stuff.  It will not cover everything but will beat searching all posts for something recalled faintly months later.

It sort of looks like everyone has something good or almost all locations.

I would like to jump to Mars with the notions about this, and of course wind is not much for that, but if you have any more to say about wind, please jump in.

A geothermal and geostorage method should do well for Mars as you have already mentioned, I believe.

To satiate our nuclear crowd, I will also suggest that being able to run a nuclear plant at its best efficiency could be a thing of value.  That is if the geothermal and geostorage can work with it, then together they could handle the load.  The load may be variable, so, being able to adjust power availability with geothermal/geostorage, may give more flexibility in the running of the nuclear facility, as to get the maximum benefit from it.  At least that is what I think at this time.

We can expect that energy loads and solar availability will be variable.  For the solar, that will include seasonality, which is more of an effect on Mars than it is on Earth, and of course dust storms.

If we look at the planed method for Eavor, it can be seen that they already plan to use a fluid other than water for their turbines.  This may suit Mars well.

I am going to review this video about their product, and then talk about radiators on Mars which could involve greenhouses, and also plastic tubing in ice as a radiator.  This would allow the tapping of the low temperatures perhaps.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=8d … M%3DHDRSC3

So, I am satisfied that even their pilot plant which is not too great for generating electricity from geothermal would likely be just fine for Geostorage, or so I think.

If SpaceX does make Starship 2.0, then it may be able to deliver the equipment to do such drilling on Mars.  Geothermal may require much deeper drilling on Mars, but Geostorage should work with much shallower drilling.

So, starting in the Mariner Rift Valley perhaps, the seasons would almost be the same length of Earth, as the sun going to each tropical line would be the equivalent of winter, and of course the sun overhead would be the mid-summer.

But then going to the icy north or south, we could make giant radiators by laying down pipe and flooding those carefully with water to freeze.  Then covering the surface of the ice with some kind of reflective vapor barrier perhaps.

So, then if you had a fluid that would condense at those temperatures you could exploit that depth of cold on the condensation side.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-26 16:35:21)


Done.

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#22 2022-11-26 17:11:56

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,067

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

Well this showed up on Utube.  It has some interesting up to date features such as water under the Martian pole, and probable volcanic activity in another location.  I don't quite feel comfortable with everything in it though, but most of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjJfc0mGAp8

I think that as others have pondered, it may be possible to build various surface structures so it would not all be cave living.

I also think that although you may use lava tubes, it is likely that boring company tubes, and vaults in soft rock or salt domes might be helpful.

You would also have the possibility of Geothermal and/or Geostored energy.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-26 17:13:45)


Done.

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#23 2022-11-26 17:41:16

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 6,238

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

Void,

I think what I'm getting at is that all the energy to do the things everyone here wants to do has to come from somewhere.  Despite the fact that demonstrator projects exist, I've yet to see a solar powered smelter, or a battery powered mining truck that run up and down the strip mine all day without stopping every few minutes to recharge, or trains that run on solar power, or battery-powered semi-trucks, or wind-powered cargo ships.  We could potentially build all that stuff, but not without the energy to do it, none of which is coming from solar panels or wind turbines or geothermal wells, on account of the overall reliability of such energy systems.  We have a tiny quantity of that intermittent energy integrated in our electricity grids, at breathtaking cost, because it's supplanted nothing whatsoever, merely added to the mass of materials necessary to meet present demands.

From my perspective, there's a steadfast refusal to acknowledge where all the energy to do this stuff is actually coming from.  In the world that presently exists, which is starkly different from our escapist futurism fantasies, the smelters run on coal and natural gas.  The mining trucks run on diesel, as do the semi-trucks, trains, and ships.  We have a literal handful of, "Hey, look at me, I'm so green" vanity projects that make no mention of the vast quantities of coal and gas and oil burned to create them.

In this futurism world we claim we want to build, we require orders of magnitude more metals and concrete to store energy in other forms that are tens to hundreds to thousands of times less energy-dense than liquid hyrocarbons, which either means burning orders of magnitude more coal and gas to account for the energy density deficits of batteries or a mass of material storing sensible heat, or slipping back into the energy poverty and slavery associated with the pre-industrialized world, which I thought was the antithesis of the "cleaner and greener" technologically advanced human civilization that we wanted.  Those giant Starship interplanetary rockets run on LOX and LNG (thousands of tons of the stuff), not "hopes and dreams".

On average, Randy and Greta are both city-urban liberal types who think food comes from the super market, electricity comes from outlets, and electric cars run on "battery magic".  Their exceptionally narrow understanding of the world comes from never having left their own little roach motel.  Whenever you do take them out into the countryside and show them that humans don't have to live on top of each other like cockroaches, for some strange reason they don't want to leave.

Steve, their "Sanitation Engineer", knows that the only "green thing" to ever come from Randy and Greta is the color of their excrement from all the avocado kale salad they eat that constantly stops up their toilets, plus all the money that flies out of their wallets buying things of questionable value, which Steve no longer has much of because now Steve's being forced to pay for Greta's lesbian interpretive dance degree and Randy's non-binary social climate justice degree (which never taught Randy any basic math, for whatever reason).

While Greta is busy complaining to Steve about the wage gap between the genders, she refuses to touch her icky toilet, because that's a job only fit for all those redneck cretins she despises, who still earn more money than she does with her college degree.  Randy can't figure out which hole the dipstick goes into, so at least they're in no danger of reproducing, but both of them are still consuming resources at an alarming rate, producing very little of lasting value to humanity, and Steve is always there to clean up after these two adult children who think the world revolves around them.

Both Randy and Greta are very worried about climate change, so they recently bought a timeshare at a beachfront condo and hopped a ride on their friend's private jet to go there on vacation.  They decide to spend some of their vacation time throwing used motor oil on traffic lights to protest the "climate injustice".  That's okay, though, because the Democrat Mayor knows they're not adults and will release them from jail and the Democrat DA would never charge them with vandalizing public property.  All that matters is how they vote and what they believe.  The end results don't amount to a hill of beans, much like their protests.  They're never going to stop using their mememePhones or do any real work, so how can it?  Anyway, it's a great way to perpetuate their animosity towards Steve, who drives an old gas-powered beater because that's what he can afford, while accomplishing nothing apart from distracting everyone so that the politicians can rob everyone blind.

Anyway, that's the big and small of it.  From where I sit, there's a complete refusal to deal with reality from all involved parties, the proposed solutions gloss over the important details, and hence nothing of greater utility ever gets done.

As far as "photo electric power" and "battery energy storage" is concerned, we already have that.  We're the only house in the neighborhood, or indeed for several neighborhoods, who do.  We have 76 photovoltaic panels and 2 Tesla Power Walls.  That stuff cost about $100,000 to purchase and install.

How many people do you know who can afford to add an extra $100,000 to the price of their home?

Go ask which of your working age neighbors can tack on another $100,000 to their mortgage and still make ends meet.

Mind you, all 76 of those panels cannot run a single AC unit, of which we have 3.

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#24 2022-11-26 18:20:12

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,787

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

The 76 PV panels need quite a bit more stuff to be able to make use of them for AC connected items. While we use what the grid supplies is there any reason not to use DC directly for items that you want to power? The just need to be designed to make use of whatever voltage you have designed the system to create.

I do not think that Void intends this to be on scale of a city or a country let alone for world production but rather something that is much smaller and targets what we might use with some ability to control and make use of excess for later.

So mars came up as a starting point for use as well as earth and while the first mission will land possibly 2 cargo ship and an unmanned fuel factory that is a crew capable ship, we will do this again in a mars cycle without considering that once 4 cargo ships are totally empty what to do next for a sustainable mars' future.

This topic brings forward how one might make them into a geothermal heating system for the future by converting them into what we know works.

Here is another solar reflective heat creation topic Trough Solar Collector- Design- Construction- Operation- Maintenance

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#25 2022-11-26 18:28:49

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,067

Re: Geothermal and Geostored Energy

In the process of struggling to find methods, it should not be expected that universality and perfection are the immediate necessary mandate to continue exploring.

If the whole notion is useless and we should just give up and burn fossil fuels, then do that, and wrestle with the consequences.

If Nuclear is the only solution, you will notice that I have included it into an option, at least for Mars, and probably for Earth.

I feel rather good in that I think I have seen now to make solar power more profitable at higher latitudes, perhaps.  It is an item of conversation at least.

Yoda is wrong, there is a try.  Star Wars was rather stupid anyway, people slicing each other up with light sabers, when a good old sword would do just fine to butcher people. 

A model "T" would not be acceptable now as a real car, other than for its value as a relic.  So, should they have just stuck with buggies?

We cannot expect a new development to be now what it may be in the future.

Even if only 1% of the people do it, that is a start.

And we cannot burn stuff on Mars, unless we burn it in Perchlorates, and I don't know if there is significant natural gas to burn.  I have allowed for Nuclear.

As far as solar and wind, I would let the market decide.  Try is allowed.

Query: "how much power can a tesla roof provide?"
https://www.solarproguide.com/how-much- … gy%20usage.
Quote:

Tesla estimated that the 9.09 kW Solar Roof installation would produce 8,609 kWh annually, which should be able to cancel out a good chunk of the homes energy usage.

Now that is not all that attractive to me, but if I was a bit better off I might look into it.

But it is very disturbing to me that I pointed out something that I feel is very important.  With Geostorage, it may be possible that more of the summer harvested energy can be utilized, at least at higher latitudes, and the owner of the roof may be able to sell that power to a storage utility.

I have noticed that you will not respond to new items but will simply circle back to things said before elsewhere, as if to throw the whole notion in the trash, without consideration.

What I have presented may not be universally worthwhile over the whole of the country or the world, but there are chances that in some places it would be suitable.

I would prefer a discussion.  I do think that solar and wind may improve over time.  You may be justified to point out true weaknesses, however.  I don't mind that.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-26 18:41:31)


Done.

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