Void Postings

tahanson43206 · 2022-01-03 11:45:57

Void has been creating high quality, imaginative posts for years.

We are overdue for a topic dedicated to noting memorable posts with his brand.

I lead off with this one, that is fresh off the digital press as this post goes up:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 60#p189760

What catches my eye in particular is the suggestion we might let go of the 1970's visions of Dr. Gerard O'Neill and friends, and imagine rotating habitats without great amounts of interior space dedicated to agriculture. That vision may well persist into the future, but Void offers an argument for creating interiors based upon human psychological needs, and not agricultural necessity.

Having grown up in a region where farms stretched for many miles in every direction, I can well imagine finding an interior of an O'Neill habitat filled with fields and forests to be psychologically satisfying, but the next person might prefer a sea scape or a desert of sand dunes or something else.

So! Onward, Void!

(th)

Calliban · 2022-01-03 14:31:42

I too have enjoyed reading the many varied contributions of Void.

I would point out that the O'Neil Island One concept, included agriculture within entirely separate torus rings, outside on the main habitation sphere. The same with Island 3. Agricultural areas were not designed for aesthetics and did not need the same level of radiation shielding as the human habitation areas.

I think that any free space colonies in high Earth orbit, are likely to be far more compact than O'Neil's Island One or Island Three, at least initially. Every square metre of the habitat surface will need at least a few tonnes of solid matter for cosmic radiation shielding. Even if lunar mined materials are cheap in HEO compared to the same mass lifted from Earth; habitable volume will still be quite expensive. So the habitat will resemble a giant building, rather than a hollow sphere with individual buildings constructed on its inner surface. It may be quite a long time before habitats are actually constructed in that way. Space stations will not be roomy until the volumes of materials processed annually in HEO are measured in the billions of tonnes and habitats are being churned out like cars on enormous assembly lines. At that point, economies of scale may start to make habitable volume cheap enough that packing density can be relaxed.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-01-03 14:35:34)

Void · 2022-01-03 16:37:57

I am comfortable with the conversation here, it is good to try to contain things within reasonably clarified concepts.

Putting bounds on the materials to make it better understood, is a good thing.

Done.

tahanson43206 · 2022-01-08 11:10:17

Rather than intrude upon a topic created by Void, I would like to highlight this latest post by our resident "master of creative thinking".

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 39#p189939

This post starts off with a reference to Isaac Arthur, who (apparently) suggested it might be possible to heat up a block of basalt on the Moon, and then use that to run a heat engine of some kind.

I recognize that the separate topic created to discuss heat engines like this is not on the main steam of consciousness in the forum

Never-the-less, the hot basalt idea does sound similar to the Molten Silicon idea of Calliban, posted elsewhere in the forum.

In both cases, the "heat engine" is glossed over as a detail so obvious it is not even worth discussing.

However, the fact is, in attempting to work out what kind of heat engine might be of use in this situation, the best I have been able to find so far is a lowly steam engine. Elsewhere in the forum, there are posts about such a steam engine this is (apparently) available from a source in (I think) Great Britain. If I remember the citation correctly, the engine is even offered in a form that drives a generator.

The issue not addressed is how the water to be heated is passed through/near ? the hot mass.

That is an interesting engineering problem that (to the best of my knowledge (admittedly limited)) has not been solved.

If there is a heat engine anywhere on Earth that runs from a hot mass as the energy source, information about such a device would be a worthy addition to the thermal engine topic(s).

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-01-08 18:30:40

The moon does get plenty hot but the issue its a long ways around the moon to get to the cold which you need for the sterling style heat engine.

A ready made to order place seems to be getting Turkmenistan's strongman leader has ordered experts to find a way to finally extinguish a massive five-decade old fire in a giant natural gas crater in the Central Asian country, dubbed the "Gateway to Hell".

Void · 2022-01-13 20:57:16

I will need to dispute that cold is not available on the Moon.

Similar to putting a sunshield to protect a spacecraft from heat, a shadow created by a properly insulating sunshield, will produce a cold shadow that is in communication with the deep cold of the sky of the universe.

Probably not the most efficient method to obtain this to a machine would be to create an Anti-Heliostat. It would simply point a cup shaped well insulated surface away from the sun at all times.

In reality with excellent engineering, it might be possible to use Heliostats as radiators in just such a fashion. While they would bounce most photons off of them to a target receiver, their properly insulated "Dark Side" might be at very cold temperatures. Should it be desired to do a fluid method heat engine, then this might work OK.

Not using a heat engine might be fun on the Moon or Mercury or Ceres, for instance. Suppose a brick cube with very thick walls. Put windows on the East and West faces. Thermally insulate the East, West, and Top Faces. Put Anti-Solar Cells on the North and South Faces. The sun is virtually completely in some form or East or West, and between them overhead on the Moon. So, the North and South Faces are always in shadow. Now with Heliostats to the East and West, shine concentrated light into the windows of the East and West Faces. It could be that in the interior of the cube, you would have true solar cells that can endure the concentrated heat. There exist such, we have discussed them.

The Walls of the Cube should be very thick, and perhaps the floor as of a thermally conductive material also rather thick. For the top/ceiling, a thickness that can be endured by the cost of the devices to support it.

Hot Solar Cells: (We have looked at this before).
https://phys.org/news/2016-08-high-temp … solar.html

So now imagine a stone box that gets hot to 800 degrees C....
Quote

In experiments, the new absorbers were shown to operate at a temperature of 800 degrees Celsius and to absorb light of wavelengths ranging from 300 to 1750 nanometers, that is, from ultraviolet (UV) to near-infrared wavelengths.
"MIM resonators absorbing in the spectral region from UV to near-infrared can be directly employed in different applications, such as solar TPV [thermophotovoltaic] /TPV systems and solar thermal systems," Chirumamilla said. "Other potential applications include in so-called tower power plants, where concentrated solar light generates steam to drive a generator."

So, you may have solar cells operating at 1/2 of the orbit time of the Moon, if you are at the Equator. You also have Anti-Solar Cells that operate 24/7 all the time most likely.

And if it seems as though, in the morning and afternoons, one set of heliostats is going to be idle, then consider that you may have a ring of boxes and heliostats around the equator or if you like a higher latitude ring of them. In that manner our original Morning set for the first box, can twist around and become the Afternoon set for another stone box a distance away.

In fact, I believe that there could be many rings at the equator and then all the way up to the poles.

Better not to use water for heat engines on the Moon. Rather this perhaps.

The windows may have both thermal shock resistant windows and also porthole coverings to put over them at night.

I think it is demonstrated that the Moon, Mercury, and Ceres, have vastly better possibilities for solar energy than does Mars, and yet this could be adapted to Mars as well, as long as a backup nuclear method also was in place on the grid(s).

What do you think?

Done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmjS6jNjRNw

Done.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ne … &FORM=VIRE

.....

Last edited by Void (2022-01-14 09:07:24)

tahanson43206 · 2022-01-14 05:51:05

I'd like to put in a plug for Void's post about possible life in the atmosphere of Venus:

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 71#p190171

Recently (within the past year) one of Analog's authors spun quite a tale about possible life in the atmosphere of Venus. The story (of course) was fanciful, but the author spent some time learning about the physics and chemistry of the planet before creating his imaginary world.

The connection to Void's post is that the author imagined there might be a kind of jellyfish floating in the atmosphere of Venus, held in elevation by a sack of gas lighter than CO2. The author extended this idea to imagine the jellyfish might evolve into a kind of hard shelled entity capable of supporting weight.

The post of Void hints at possible discovery of some form of life at Venus.

An expedition to explore the atmosphere of Venus may be inspired by such reports.

(th)

Void · 2022-01-14 08:39:55

Hey! (th),

Rocket Lab is indicating the ambition to make Venus it's project, you can look that up.

The article(s) I posted about and linked to, includes the caution of Science, which is good.

One thing not so much mentioned is that at the base of the clouds the Sulfuric Acid breaks down in the heat, into H20 and Sulfur Oxides.
So, it could be possible to have updrafts with more water vapor in them and possible that upon upwelling the water might condense into droplets.

There is also this from Antarctica, about microbes eating Hydrogen. The atmosphere of Venus is bombarded by the solar wind, and it may be possible that the sun in implanting Protons to the atmosphere to convert to Hydrogen, and then been eaten. What prevents a great buildup?
Well maybe some also leaves when the solar U.V. brakes it down. The Hydrogen in any case can be a source of food and also water. The articles do not directly touch on that.

The solar wind also carries off Oxygen from Venus into a tail. A large reason for this is because Venus is so dry it reportedly has a very strong electric field that levitates the Oxygen out of the atmosphere to be taken by the solar wind. It is also speculated by some that living cells can ride this effect to be implanted onto the Earth and Maybe Mars.

Here it is, but it is 120 km + not miles.

So, interesting another path for panspermia. Granted getting the cells to survive is going to be very hard to suppose, but in say 4.5 billion years, maybe one or two from one planet to another?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/ … -discovery

Here is how spiders on Earth fly by using electric fields:
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/sp … tric-field

And this may indicate that indeed it may be possible for life to levitate in electric fields on Venus.

Here is some fun: (This is about the Earth)
https://phys.org/news/2021-11-strong-po … upper.html
Quote:

Strong winds power electric fields in the upper atmosphere, NASA's ICON finds
by Lina Tran, NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center

I am searching for an article, probably yesterday, phys.org, where it says upper atmosphere winds can blow cells up at least 124 mile above the Earth's surface. Also, that cells have been found outside the ISS.

I have read many speculations/opinions, and some think that Mercury could have supported a biosphere very early on.

Also, I recently read that Ceres the "Dwarf Planet" in the asteroid belt may have had an atmosphere and a surface ocean for a time.

Even the Moon is thought to have possibly been habitable for a brief period of time.

So, just possibly Mercury, Venus, Earth, Luna, Mars, Ceres might have had and shared life. Many places did not persist with it if they ever had it.

But therefore, we should check out Venus for life.

Done.

Here it is:
https://phys.org/news/2022-01-vertical- … 120km.html
Quote:

Model suggests vertical winds could push bacteria to an altitude beyond 120km

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-01-14 09:06:21)

tahanson43206 · 2022-01-14 13:49:34

For Void ...

This topic was set up to give other members an opportunity to shower praise upon your work (when it is deserved).

It seems immodest (to me at least) for you to bask in the limelight by posting in your own favorable reviews.

Your post was in a topic that lent itself to discussion of Venus.

Please be assured that your posts in their own topics are read, even though FluxBB does not appear to contain a count mechanism to show how many ** real ** people have read them, compared to the Internet Search engines and the incessant spammers who are constantly looking for a crack or crevasse in the wall that SpaceNut has tried to put in place against them.

(th)

Void · 2022-01-14 14:02:05

Well then, I will apologize. I was not so much aware of what you speak of. I got excited as I was looking to deposit the materials that I did, somewhere. I will try to comprehend what the offence was. Don't worry, I will be more careful.

Done.

tahanson43206 · 2022-01-14 14:28:05

All is forgiven, Void! This topic is a way for NewMars members to comment upon your work without intruding upon the topics you have created.

You are really the ** only ** member who can do your topics justice, so this is an alternative location for other members.

Hopefully you will find more words of praise here as time goes along.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-01-22 07:28:31

This post is to thank Void for his discovery and linking of the (to me surprising) work by a Finnish professor to define a rotating structure for human habitat to be located at Ceries!

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 00#p190400

Terraformer is notable for having created a Cererean ID on Dr. Dartnell's knowledge Forum.

The Finnish professor has accepted the resource potential of Ceres, and combined it with a variation of the O'Neal habitat concept.

An adaptation for the distance of Ceres is the use of very large solar mirrors to provide enough sunlight for comfortable living in the rotating habitat.

Another wrinkle is the idea of building the rotating habitat as a saucer rather than a cylinder or sphere, as has been done with earlier visions of orbital habitats.

Terraformer has written of using a space elevator at Ceres, and the Finnish professor has indicated such an elevator would be only 630 miles long.

At this point, I'm unsure if the 630 miles is half the total length that would be needed.

A traditional space elevator has a way station midway along the length where activities would occur, while the counterweight would pull the cable taut from a distance further out .

it may be that the Finnish professor is assuming the mass of the habitat is so great, it would serve as the counterweight for the space elevator cable.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-01-22 18:52:45

This post is to thank void for finding and posting a link to a 30+ minute video on artificial gravity.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 16#p190416

It seems to me that both the Unitary design of Robertdyck, and the counter-rotating design of kbd512 are covered in this video.

It includes the O'Neill cylinders and the Stanford Torus, and numerous other proposals for providing artificial gravity in space.

It covers the full range of forces that a person will experience, as well as the range of parameters for the designs that humans can tolerate.

I covers a variety of coriolis effects that passengers and crew will have to deal with.

Of note is a figure for length of a rotating structure, below which instability is guaranteed, but above which stability is possible.

I did not see a specific section on the counter-rotating proposal of kbd512. the two habitat ring design shown had the rings rotating in the same direction.

Edit next day: I watched the San Francisco 49's defeat the Green Bay Packer's last night, with a field goal over a playing field covered with snow.

The video discovered by Void was echoing in the back of my mind, and I compared the long rotation axis recommended in the video to a football.

For the record, and assuming no one will ever read this post, I hearby record the first suggestion on Earth, in the History of Humankind, that the Large Ship should be shaped like an American football, with a long axis 2.4 greater than the diameter at the center, and a covering of solar cells to collect solar energy on the end pointing at the Sun.

SearchTerm:football shape recommended for Large Ship 2022/01/23

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-01-28 09:07:53

This post is to thank Void for another outstanding discovery!

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 16#p190616

The post at the link above contains a link to, and snippet from, an article about the comparative efficiency of use of microwaves to soften soil containing frozen water. While the method may not be productive if water is not present, the results indicate effectiveness up to 140 times greater than conductive heating.

It seems to me this research shows a way forward for numerous proposals for Mars settlement activity involving water.

A heat engine (eg a nuclear fission reactor) can produce electricity to generate microwaves, while dumping waste heat into regolith to maintain it's own stable operation. While the dumping process is inefficient (compared to microwave heating) the energy released ** should ** be 100% captured by humans using the process on Mars.

For SpaceNut re Top Layer of Regolith Water Harvest equipment .... Please continue development of your important (to me for sure) work on the first meter problem. You left off with a plan to use scrapers and scoops to collect regolith so that water mechanically bound to the materials could be released. It may turn out that use of microwaves to soften the soil before scooping would permit greater productivity for a given amount of fission reactor energy in your system.

(th)

GW Johnson · 2022-01-28 09:53:30

The microwave idea is a good way to thaw frozen regolith. As for harvesting the water content of the frozen regolith, there is a maximum of 10 kg (10 L) of water harvestable for every single percent of water content in a metric ton of regolith. And just what is that water content, 3-4%? 30-40 L max per ton processed? You gotta do a lot more to that ton than just scoop it up.

And that assumes all your harvesting processes are 100% efficient (which they will NOT be). Tons to move and process for only liters of water does not sound very promising to me as a viable resource. I guess it's better than no resource at all, but I think drilling into buried glaciers would yield orders of magnitude more water for a whole lot less effort. Steam down the pipe, water comes back up. Coaxially-nested pipes make this a continuous process.

GW

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-10 12:16:21

For Void re Drawings ....

By any chance, would you be willing to assist RobertDyck in his preparations for a presentation to the National Space Society on March 12th?

I have no idea which parts of the Large Ship RobertDyck might wish to upgrade from hand sketches to the kind of impressive images you've shown us, but if you are interested in helping, please drop off a note to RobertDyck in the Large Ship topic.

There is need for drawings of MANY aspects of the Large Ship design. The audience I am thinking about is young folks who might be in elementary school, as well as those in high school. If you do decide to contribute, please be sure you "sign" your work!

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-11 14:56:33

For Void re kind offer to assist RobertDyck with presentation drawings ...

It is possible RobertDyck has missed your offer to assist. Here are links to two images that started out as napkin scrawls ...

I would very much like to see them rendered in the pristine format you have demonstrated!

Here's a rough hand drawing by me. A wheel with one deck as the living quarters
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 64#p169464

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 80#p171280
Floor plan of economy cabins. This is a floor plan, you're looking down at the floor.

Of the two, if you have limited time, the second is the most important, because RobertDyck has created a Blender image of his vision that is the equivalent of his opening drawing of Large Ship.

As you begin the drawing, please note the precise dimensions, published by RobertDyck multiple times in the Large Ship topic.

Also, please prepare for feedback from RobertDyck .... our goal here is to provide his ideas maximum visibility to an audience that will (if all goes well) include persons in elementary school. RobertDyck is building a vision that coincides nicely with that of Elon Musk. I expect Large Ship to capture the imagination of the public who are fortunate enough to encounter it.

RobertDyck may well have corrections or adjustments to fit your work to his vision. That goes with the territory of serving as an artist for another person who may lack skills, but ** is ** able to see if your work is close to their idea or not.

And! Best wishes for success with your explorations of solar power in the Solar System, at all the locations your imagination takes you (and us as ** your ** public!).

(th)

Void · 2022-02-11 20:18:41

(th) I will violate the prohibition for me to post here just for your request.

Please indicate the time requirement.

I will attempt to do my best interpretation in paint for the drawings you have indicated. I will do my best to not interfere with Robert's vision.
I will put the results here, if it works out. I may like a few days to get the mood and time.

Done.

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-11 21:00:47

For Void re #18

Thank you (very much) for considering this request!

The due date for the presentation is March 12th. I think the habitat interior drawing is the one most needed.

RobertDyck has prepared a very nice Blender rendering of the Large ship.

Something to keep in mind as you proceed, is that the drawing you create will (or may) feed into discussion of construction of an On-Earth Large Ship Analog facility.

Regarding prohibition on your posting in this topic ... I recognize the incongruity of the request, and will go back to the original post to reconsider it, in light of subsequent developments.

That review is tentatively scheduled for this weekend.

Thanks again for your kind offer of assistance.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-17 18:43:12

In his most recent post, in another topic, Void showed a link to a YouTube video about using flat mirrors to increase the performance of ordinary solar panels.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 50#p191150

The presentation seems (to me for sure) to be well enough done so that quite a few folks might imagine themselves able to replicate the performance he demonstrated.

Void made a prediction that this technique might improve the performance of solar panels on Mars by 8 times, instead of the 4 times demonstrated on Earth.

I confess that I have difficulty imagining how the 8 times improvement in performance would work, but there must be a reason why Void made the prediction.

In any case, NewMars forum readers can watch the video and decide for themselves.

(th)

Void · 2022-03-01 12:22:24

(th) Sort of a bad boy, but I have decided to try to do some of your request today:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 80#p171280

Is post #180 most of what you had in mind, as I seem to recall?

Is it still desired?

I would attempt to do it in paint.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-03-01 12:22:59)

tahanson43206 · 2022-10-27 19:03:48

I would like to call attention to another innovation by Void .... this is one of many, and perhaps on the less grand side than some, but sturdy as a brick, and as likely to find it's way into future English discourse ...

This should not be confused with "Ballistic Delivery" of supplies to the surface of a world, which can also be called "Lithobraking", I believe.

Since Void is responsible for invention of the concept of "Lithobraking", it is altogether fitting that he should come up with a name for it.

For those who may have arrived (or who ** will ** arrive) after the main event, it has been established that Lithobraking is a practical shipment method for use on Mars. There is a topic devoted to working out the procedures, for anyone who might be interested in funding a business venture to supply suitable materials to customers on Mars.

(th)

Void · 2022-10-27 20:42:05

That is very kind of you, but "Lithobraking" was a term I picked up from an Isaac Arthur presentation. But it does not hurt to add it to the vocabulary of the web site.

Have a good night.

Done.

tahanson43206 · 2022-10-28 05:37:18

For Void re #23

Thank you for adding detail about invention of the term "lithobraking"

The term itself may have been invented by Isaac Arthur, the term was "introduced" to NewMars by Void!

SearchTerm:lithobraking ... Term used by Isaac Arthur in an online presentation, and introduced to NewMars by Void

The topic dedicated to showing the practical nature of this deceleration method for commercial purposes is:

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9802

Index» Interplanetary transportation» Ballistic Delivery of Supplies to Mars

The topic title was updated to include the word: Lithobraking

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-02-04 13:05:07

Here is another of Void's many "stretch" ideas ....

Void wrote:

This is an interruption, so you may ignore it. But.......The other members are talking salts for storing heat just now.
Louis had this notion of power to gas on Ships.
I am wondering about a supertanker. Could you insulate it and fill it with molten salts. Then heat the salts at a place of renewable energy. Float the ship to a city, and power the city?
I don't know how practical that can be.
It is containerized thermal storage which is mobile and will allow heating at a place of advantage and can then move to a place of market for the energy.
Done.

It is possible the amount of energy storable in molten salt does not compare well to what is stored in bunker fuel, but Void's post caused me to wonder if a sufficiently large vehicle might be powered by thermal stored energy.

I don't have a good feel for the relative energy storage capacity, and hope that a NewMars member might be able to put some numbers up.

The insulation would have to be pretty good, for sure!

(th)

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