Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

Void · 2018-02-13 21:43:07

I have had an eye on this for blocking U.V. spectrum:

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/149 … wer-itself

https://newatlas.com/pv-cell-ultraviole … ght/14708/

Methods to utilize U.V. in solar cells, and infrared as well.

And these are in some cases to be relatively transparent windows.

So for greenhouses on Mars, (Solar Cisterns), ideal.

If you are consuming U.V. to generate electricity, then you are reducing the amount that your gardens receive.

And the Mars spectrum is loaded with U.V.

So, to save costs, of special NASA U.V. blockers, maybe your solar cells mop up a lot of the U.V. and then you reform your ice periodically and when it is reformed, you spray it with a coating of Oils, that may serve as a sacrifice organic materials that will take the cruelty of the remaining U.V. that gets through. (Sunblock).

Or maybe the NASA stuff is the best plan. It is nice to have options.

Last edited by Void (2018-02-13 21:46:37)

Void · 2018-02-13 21:48:01

martienne I will add this as an afterthought. I found it for another topic, but I will explain why it might matter for your topic.

https://www.geekwire.com/2017/arcadia-p … pacex-ice/
Quote:

Arcadia on the map: For future Mars landing sites, SpaceX thinks ice is nice
by Alan Boyle on March 20, 2017 at 7:02 pm
News Brief
SpaceX’s current favorite place to land on Mars is reportedly Arcadia Planitia, which combines flat terrain, potential deposits of water ice and an equatorial region well-suited for solar power. According to Space News, that’s the word from SpaceX’s Paul Wooster, who’s working with NASA to identify potential landing sites for the privately held company’s Red Dragon missions to Mars. The first such mission is now expected no earlier than 2020. SpaceX founder Elon Musk wants to send spaceships full of settlers to the Red Planet, starting as early as the mid-2020s. Will that turn Arcadia into a Martian utopia?
This color-coded elevation map of Mars’ equatorial region shows Arcadia Planitia at upper left, northwest of Olympus Mons and the Tharsis shield volcanoes. (USGS)
Love space and science? Sign up for our GeekWire Space & Science email newsletter for top headlines from Alan Boyle, GeekWire’s aerospace and science editor.
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So, they start out at Arcadia Planitia, but are rather close to 4 major volcanic regions, where I presume lava tubes are a probability.

The target SpaceX has Arcadia Planitia is thought to have water and be a favorable landing zone. On Earth, lava tubes often have ice in them. It may be so on Mars as well possibly.

Last edited by Void (2018-02-13 21:56:24)

Void · 2018-02-14 13:52:17

martienne

Another way to make a underground would be to extract ice from an ice slab at the ground line. These slabs are supposed to be hundreds of feet thick, but not pure ice. Some regolith mixed in. Some porosity (VOIDS) as well.

This article talks about Utopia Planitia, and also mentions Arcadia Planitia as being very similar.
http://www.planetary.org/blogs/guest-bl … -mars.html

So the idea would be to get down to the bedrock, and melt/evaporate water perhaps with an infrared heater. Collect the water, and perhaps make supports for the VOID created in the "ICE". Perhaps roman stone arch type structures could be used.

I was worried that if you heated the interior, it would melt the ice above. That might be O.K. actually. For a time water might drip down to be collected. But the surface is quite sub-freezing, so I would expect the melting to have a limit upwards bound.

When the dripping stopped, then a sealant could be applied to the rock structure down below.

Of course if the ice above is being undermined by melting/evaporation, I suppose there could be collapses. That could be a problem if the arches were not strong enough to take it.

Anyway, something to think about.

Another method would be to simply melt a reservoir above the stone arches. Do it slowly so that regolith drops down on the arches in small amounts over a prolonged period. When there was enough regolith on top of the arches, then you could fully pressurize them as the air pressure would not then be enough to make them explode.

So then you would have arch buildings on the bedrock, and a layer of regolith applying counter pressure against the force of air wanting to float up in water. You would then also have a body of water above that structure. If you added salts, then you could impose thermal stratification. That is the water above the regolith which would be above the arch buildings could be heated to room temperature and it would stay their even though the water on the surface might be quite cold.

There are some potential flaws in the plan however, as the overlying ice with regolith and porosity, might be heavier than water.

But the article indicates that it actually may not be. The porosity may make it lighter than water. Not all of the ice is the same. Some has more regolith some less. So, maybe in some locations this might work.

If the "Reservoir" were melted all the way to the surface, then of course some engineered protective measure could inhibit sublimation of the ice surface. I suggest simple ~ambient Martian pressure "Greenhouses".

Perhaps light could even get in through the greenhouses and ice into the "Reservoir".

Utopia Planitia is about the size of New Mexico. That would be something.

Last edited by Void (2018-02-14 14:18:58)

Void · 2018-05-29 20:10:10

Well, apparently I have been talking to myself here, but so what I think this is an interesting video.

I think that after a first settlement has been established on Mars on a flat location, then it might make sense to explore what potential volcano's may have to provide life support, for another settlement.

This is a very interesting video I feel. It suggests several possibilities to me.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=mo … ORM=VRDGAR

One thing I did not previously anticipate is that for Olympus Mons (And the others perhaps), there may be multiple layers of lava tubes. This would make sense, where previous lava tubes would be covered by subsequent lava flows (With new lava tubes).

So perhaps a vast connectable network of lava tubes. Lava Tubes are expected to be larger on Mars than Earth, in cross section.

Another factor they suggest is minerals which may be available.

I also speculate that indeed perhaps some of the lava tubes may be filled with ice.

It is thought reasonable that certain areas of Olympus Mons are covered in rock glaciers also, and perhaps some ice left there as well.

The volcano appears to have had eruptions relatively recently in geological time, and so perhaps even geothermal energy being available.

.....

And finally of course I like "Mountain Hopping".

It seems to me that eventually a spacecraft like BFS would not go directly to orbit, but would hop up to the top of Olympus Mons and be refilled with Oxygen at least, and perhaps even fuel.

It is something to consider at least.

Not Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-05-29 20:17:48)

louis · 2018-05-30 04:24:39

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=mo … ORM=VDRVRV

Maybe longer term these can be safely be put to use, but enthusiasts for occupying lava tubes often overlook the dangers associated with them...many will be v. precarious structures. I think they would have to be explored by robots and also tested with powered props to see if they were strucurally sound. My guess is they will be v. porous and thus not suitable for pressurisation. You'd either have to line the tubes with a sealant (a huge commitment of labour and resources) or insert an inflatable tube within the lava tube - but that begs the question of why not inflate it on the surface and cover with regolith or an ice structure.

Void wrote:

Well, apparently I have been talking to myself here, but so what I think this is an interesting video.
I think that after a first settlement has been established on Mars on a flat location, then it might make sense to explore what potential volcano's may have to provide life support, for another settlement.
This is a very interesting video I feel. It suggests several possibilities to me.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=mo … ORM=VRDGAR
One thing I did not previously anticipate is that for Olympus Mons (And the others perhaps), there may be multiple layers of lava tubes. This would make sense, where previous lava tubes would be covered by subsequent lava flows (With new lava tubes).
So perhaps a vast connectable network of lava tubes. Lava Tubes are expected to be larger on Mars than Earth, in cross section.
Another factor they suggest is minerals which may be available.
I also speculate that indeed perhaps some of the lava tubes may be filled with ice.
It is thought reasonable that certain areas of Olympus Mons are covered in rock glaciers also, and perhaps some ice left there as well.
The volcano appears to have had eruptions relatively recently in geological time, and so perhaps even geothermal energy being available.
.....
And finally of course I like "Mountain Hopping".
It seems to me that eventually a spacecraft like BFS would not go directly to orbit, but would hop up to the top of Olympus Mons and be refilled with Oxygen at least, and perhaps even fuel.
It is something to consider at least.

Not Done.

Last edited by louis (2018-05-30 04:25:23)

Void · 2018-05-30 12:21:04

Louis Wrote:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=mo … ORM=VDRVRV
Maybe longer term these can be safely be put to use, but enthusiasts for occupying lava tubes often overlook the dangers associated with them...many will be v. precarious structures. I think they would have to be explored by robots and also tested with powered props to see if they were strucurally sound. My guess is they will be v. porous and thus not suitable for pressurisation. You'd either have to line the tubes with a sealant (a huge commitment of labour and resources) or insert an inflatable tube within the lava tube - but that begs the question of why not inflate it on the surface and cover with regolith or an ice structure.

Well, I would not term any of your concerns as being so wrong that they must be dismissed. Lava Tubes on Mars are currently an unexamined item except for orbital viewing.

The potential minerals mentioned would be of interest.

It is also sensible that you would not desire to drive heavy equipment over a near surface lava tube.

However I am thinking of deeply buried lava tubes that may have survived for a very long time. These mountains have been being built for billions of years. It may be that a network of lava tubes are deep into the innards of the mountain.

Using the Boring Company techniques it may be possible to reach them.

If they still exist and have not collapsed, then it would demonstrate that they are built strong. Still, I do agree that special techniques would need to be established to make them trustworthy.

......

I am interested in the geothermal potential of Olympus Mons.

I have a suspicion that how the Tharsis Volcanos work is that they have a time constant.
1) An eruption warms the interior. The heat makes the mountain lighter.
2) The volcano cools down over a very long time, perhaps millions of years. The mountain becomes heavy.
3) The volcano becomes heavy enough to break the crust and fractures appear in the structure that a compressed lava may follow up.
4) A new eruption occurs.

Not the same as on Earth.

I don't know if a useful geothermal potential could be tapped by drilling into the mountain. And if it is true that these volcanos periodically snap the crust, then that event would be expected to shake the ground, very likely helping lava to emerge by fracturing the mountain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympus_Mons

It looks like the air pressure on the top of Olympus Mons is ~12% of the average Martian surface pressure. Of course after terraforming the planet it will be higher. But terraforming of any massive magnitude is likely far off in time.

I know from experience that you (Louis), are capable of thinking of Mars exporting items. I actually feel that the activities of Jeff Bezos, and Ricard Branson, and Neo asteroid miners will really happen, and that there is likely to be a large amount of people in the Earth/Moon system and elsewhere. (Now I am thinking Asteroids, Jupiter system, Pluto system.

Export of materials may be of interest for an economy of Mars. It might be an economic contender, but there will be a lot of competition.

At least its exports to it's own orbit will make sense.

There, I expect to have massive amounts of synthetic gravity machines, synthetic gravities of 1 g down to much lower. .38 for instance, and lower.

While Mars itself may over time become more and more like Earth, still it may make quite a lot of sense to use it as a source of resources for an orbital segment of a system.

Therefore I inquire into "Mountain Hopping" on Mars.

The idea being that a BFS type vehicle instead of being fully loaded with fuel, would have an excess of cargo, and fuel sufficient to do a sub-orbital hop to the top of Olympus Mons. There, the ~12% of the average Martian surface pressure will still be sufficient to provide Oxygen and Carbon for propellants.

It might be necessary to have a robotic Hydrogen tanker that would loft Hydrogen to the base at the top of Olympus Mons. The Hydrogen coming from the main settlement/base on the flatlands with ice. (Or it is distantly possible that the top of Olympus Mons may have ice available on the slopes of the mountain.

From there, of course I would like to consider the "Sky Hook". Maybe it will never be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyhook_%28structure%29

The major concern I would have for it would be damage to the tether from orbital objects. Otherwise for Mars it should be much easier than for Earth, and for Earth, it supposedly does not have to be built from futuristic materials. (Unlike a space elevator).

But I am searching for shortcuts to orbit from the surface of Mars. That would be the maximum benefit of Mars to the human race, is if you would be able to have a somewhat terraformed Mars where the effort to bring materials to orbit would be proportionally small.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-05-30 13:02:37)

SpaceNut · 2019-03-27 19:56:42

Nice under ground habitats for the below ground Sagan city concepts.

Not to meantion this has the plastics for mars with in it.

SpaceNut · 2019-03-28 17:03:59

Another potential use for spray on glass product to seal the walls
https://phys.org/news/2010-02-spray-on- … onize.html

elderflower · 2019-03-29 04:46:55

You also have to seal the floor and insulate all surfaces to prevent melting of groundwater.

Void · 2019-04-24 11:25:43

I have received negative reaction from Louis about lava tubes previously. And I have considered that thinking.

I will agree that these may not be the ideal places for the mass of the propulsion to live. And yet they may represent a gift from Mars to us, that if we work at it, we may prosper in some way to investigate and use them.

So, far, I am thinking of farming in them. I previously had one concept that was pneumatic at it's heart.

But I seems that another member alerted me to the vision of KBD512 concerning Ammonia. So, it could be considered to use chemistry to light these caves using fuel cells. This is sort of a borrowing from the other members.

I will set out to describe both notions and see where we might get.

There is of course a third option where internal lighting and such would be done with wiring, but I run on the presumption that such materials will be rather precious, at least at first. Maybe I will be wrong. If so, then good.

Anyway if we are going to have farms in lava tubes, then we will want pressurization, chemicals, and very likely photons of a type most suitable for the farms.

Pressurization, of course requires that all air leakage in a segment of lava tube be addressed, and corrected. I think of this being a bit like dentistry. fillings, laminations, and perhaps end plugs made of frozen icy berms.

If it then becomes real to pressurize a segment of lava tube, then it may be suitable to grow a crop. The crop may produce food and other organic materials, and of course Oxygen. It might even be a pleasant place to visit for humans in protective gear. I don't plan to get fussy about the makeup of the atmosphere inside them, except that it has to be acceptable to any crop grown. We don't know that much about that yet, so those are questions to answer.

Honestly, I would like to imagine apple trees, but that is quite an investment. First I think it would be annual crops, so that you could get a timely gain. The first inhabitation of Mars will not be able to afford everything we want, but later, perhaps apple trees.

We could go with chemosynthesis in the lava tubes, and grow slimy yuck stuff. And maybe that will be all there is for it.

But I would rather work towards photon driven farming as the dominant theme.

So if we presume we were able to pressurize parts of a lava tube sufficiently we then want necessary chemistry like water and nutrients, and we want photons of a suitable type.

At this stage in our technology I presume that these photons will come from something like LED's. Of course those require electricity.

Sources I can think of would involve:
-Solar with conductive wiring. This will consume valuable copper and/or aluminum I presume.
-Solar to chemical with fuel cells at the photon generation locations. Fuel perhaps, Ammonia.
-Solar-Pneumatic. This would involve fluctuation of the air pressure in the lava tube. When the sun was shining you would pump raw Martian air in, turning local turbines to generate photons, and else you would drain the contents of the lava tube down to a minimum pressure, to likewise turn a turbine. Tolerance of the crops to this activity is a major question.

-And then it just now occurred to me that NASA Kilopower units might serve OK, but they will be precious and with lots of impediments. Later maybe local Martian fission, but that's really down the road I expect. No infrastructure to serve such a need. That would have to be bootstrapped up, and such a process will take time, blood, sweat, and tears.

None of these are ideal. They each require a burden to be lifted, they each have constraints on practicality, where a lot is unknown. Still, a lava tube is a potential asset to a Martian economy. It is worthy of some thinking I feel.

And yet some more thinking I think

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-04-24 11:51:15)

louis · 2019-04-24 12:10:47

Hi Void,

I think my objection was to considering them as an early option for habitation - my point being that you would need to do a lot of survey work and then shoring up work and then lining work etc etc. Just didn't seem like a good candidate for Mission 1, 2 or 3 really, since there are other priorities. But, yes I wouldn't rule them out and they may well be more suitable for highly automated indoor agriculture than habitation.

I thought there was a shortage of nitrogen/ammonia on Mars?

If I am right we will probably want to use nitrogen for fertiliser rather than lighting.

We could burn metals of course:

https://newatlas.com/mcgill-metal-powder-fuel/40869/

The main issue with combustion is of course the need to extract oxygen but it is still useful way of storing energy.

Void wrote:

I have received negative reaction from Louis about lava tubes previously. And I have considered that thinking.
I will agree that these may not be the ideal places for the mass of the propulsion to live. And yet they may represent a gift from Mars to us, that if we work at it, we may prosper in some way to investigate and use them.
So, far, I am thinking of farming in them. I previously had one concept that was pneumatic at it's heart.
But I seems that another member alerted me to the vision of KBD512 concerning Ammonia. So, it could be considered to use chemistry to light these caves using fuel cells. This is sort of a borrowing from the other members.
I will set out to describe both notions and see where we might get.
There is of course a third option where internal lighting and such would be done with wiring, but I run on the presumption that such materials will be rather precious, at least at first. Maybe I will be wrong. If so, then good.
Anyway if we are going to have farms in lava tubes, then we will want pressurization, chemicals, and very likely photons of a type most suitable for the farms.
Pressurization, of course requires that all air leakage in a segment of lava tube be addressed, and corrected. I think of this being a bit like dentistry. fillings, laminations, and perhaps end plugs made of frozen icy berms.

If it then becomes real to pressurize a segment of lava tube, then it may be suitable to grow a crop. The crop may produce food and other organic materials, and of course Oxygen. It might even be a pleasant place to visit for humans in protective gear. I don't plan to get fussy about the makeup of the atmosphere inside them, except that it has to be acceptable to any crop grown. We don't know that much about that yet, so those are questions to answer.
Honestly, I would like to imagine apple trees, but that is quite an investment. First I think it would be annual crops, so that you could get a timely gain. The first inhabitation of Mars will not be able to afford everything we want, but later, perhaps apple trees.
We could go with chemosynthesis in the lava tubes, and grow slimy yuck stuff. And maybe that will be all there is for it.
But I would rather work towards photon driven farming as the dominant theme.
So if we presume we were able to pressurize parts of a lava tube sufficiently we then want necessary chemistry like water and nutrients, and we want photons of a suitable type.
At this stage in our technology I presume that these photons will come from something like LED's. Of course those require electricity.
Sources I can think of would involve:
-Solar with conductive wiring. This will consume valuable copper and/or aluminum I presume.
-Solar to chemical with fuel cells at the photon generation locations. Fuel perhaps, Ammonia.
-Solar-Pneumatic. This would involve fluctuation of the air pressure in the lava tube. When the sun was shining you would pump raw Martian air in, turning local turbines to generate photons, and else you would drain the contents of the lava tube down to a minimum pressure, to likewise turn a turbine. Tolerance of the crops to this activity is a major question.
-And then it just now occurred to me that NASA Kilopower units might serve OK, but they will be precious and with lots of impediments. Later maybe local Martian fission, but that's really down the road I expect. No infrastructure to serve such a need. That would have to be bootstrapped up, and such a process will take time, blood, sweat, and tears.

None of these are ideal. They each require a burden to be lifted, they each have constraints on practicality, where a lot is unknown. Still, a lava tube is a potential asset to a Martian economy. It is worthy of some thinking I feel.
And yet some more thinking I think
Done.

Void · 2019-04-24 18:22:48

Quite reasonable Louis.

Done.

SpaceNut · 2019-04-24 18:37:19

Louis wrote:

I thought there was a shortage of nitrogen/ammonia on Mars?

Its mostly locked up in the rocks of mars...

Void · 2019-04-25 16:00:08

I think that this topic: (Index
» Human missions
» A mission to Mars could make its own oxygen with plasma technology) http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7885
Could be a great partner topic: (Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?)

This in particular is suggestive of something of utility, if it works as advertised, in a practical way.
https://phys.org/news/2017-10-breakthro … fuels.html
Quote:

Breakthrough in direct activation of CO2 and CH4 into liquid fuels and chemicals
In a paper published in chemistry journal Angewandte Chemie they report a very unique plasma synthesis process for the direct, one-step activation of carbon dioxide and methane into higher value liquid fuels and chemicals (e.g. acetic acid, methanol, ethanol and formaldehyde) with high selectivity at ambient conditions (room temperature and atmospheric pressure).

While this one claims to be able to split CO2 into Oxygen and CO.
https://phys.org/news/2017-10-mission-m … ology.html

A mission to Mars could make its own oxygen via plasma technology

So, if this is true, then we have the makings for relatively convenient power systems for Mars, and perhaps some parts of it can carry through a global dust storm, to offer life support options.

Liquid fuels such as "Ethanol" can be stored in tanks for long periods of time. Stockpiled.
Oxygen can also be stored in tanks, but another way is to utilize caves either originally natural or caves totally manufactured, to store Oxygen.

Some of these liquids could be burned in internal combustion engines, or fuel cells and that also could produce electricity inside the caves. The electricity could provide lighting in side of the caves.

The Carbon Monoxide is a gas of course, and a poison to mammals including humans. I am not saying don't use it as a fuel for machinery, but it could also be placed in sections of cave, with water in it. Microbes would then be able to consume it, and also use the water as Oxidizer, and that can release Methane. So, a potential source of Methane, which can loop back to the liquid fuels process.

Of course all of this is likely to be rooted in solar power at it's foundations.

It is quite possible that the CO caves will produce a organic snow of dead microbes over time. This should make "Soil" placed in the caves more usable as it will contain organic materials. It may even be possible to convert Martian soils to clays. Not sure what that takes. I think it may be PH and temperature related. By the way, there are good chances that the "Rusting" of soil materials, such as dune materials in a vat of salt water would produce Hydrogen and perhaps Nitrous Oxide, which could have uses. Nitrous Oxide as a medical gas, and also as a greenhouse gas. And perhaps on a pathway towards producing Nitrogen fertilizer. It should be possible to put plenty of Nitrogen in with the Carbon Monoxide.

So a product to extract from these caves would be soils beneficiated. The soil extracted could then be put into chambers for the growth of Mushrooms. It would already have some organic matter. However vegetative waste and perhaps other wastes could be added. And in addition I think it would be OK to add liquid fuels into the soil, as mushrooms would likely be able to break them down. Probably you would want to dilute something like Ethanol with a significant amount of water, to reduce toxicity to the Mushrooms. The Mushroom chambers would of course need Oxygen.

So, you could get crops of Mushrooms, and the Mushrooms would further beneficiate the soil.

Next step, possibly the soil can be moved to gardens which run on Photons, with green plants. In our case in caves, I think a good plan is to generate electricity local to the gardens and shine photons with LED's. Having local power, diversifies options, and reduces the use of Copper and Aluminum.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-04-25 16:33:35)

SpaceNut · 2019-04-25 21:08:06

Lava tubes, caves, tanks ect... for use as storage or for life are talking all around how to make them when we might not trust a natural formed one.

The word boring comes to mind for verticle means to create. One could use the materials that are churned out for feed stock materials in a 3D printer to creat the sealed walls, floors, tanks, ect that we would want for storage or for our home on Mars.

So when are we going to find more specifics on the equipment energy levels required and size adaptability of them to creat the correct sized chambers that we would want for each useage.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-03-21 09:39:58

Life on ‘Mars’: the strangers pretending to colonize the planet – in Utah
https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 … volunteers

Marcellino added: “I think there’s been an evolution of personality types from extreme type-A people who like to break records” – think Chuck Yeager – “to people with the social and cooperative skills to endure a nine-month space voyage.”
Hence the importance of analog space stations. The Mars Society also maintains a base in the Canadian Arctic, though the one in Utah sees more use, for practical and cost reasons. Nasa and other groups have tried similar projects on a Hawaiian volcano and in a cave in Spain.
Much of what we know about long-term isolation comes from personnel stationed on submarines or in remote outposts in the Arctic or Antarctic. Space advocates believe that such case studies have limited application. Those sailors “were bored”, Zubrin told Business Insider, regarding US navy personnel stationed in Antarctica. “They didn’t want to be there. They wanted to be in San Diego where they can go out on the pier on Friday night and pick up girls.”
By contrast, he argued, scientists and engineers who volunteered for long-term space missions would be highly motivated. Overwork, not boredom, would be a greater risk. The crew members I met at the MDRS seemed to partly bear out that observation; they worked hours each day and told me they were anxious about not finishing their research before leaving.

NASA is training human-like robots to explore caves on Mars
https://www.impactlab.com/2021/08/19/na … s-on-mars/

Boston Dynamics’ Spot robot has proven an extremely viable body for NeBula.
“SPOT is one of the most capable robots that we have and it is amazing to see how it successfully reacts to high-level decisions and commands coming from the robot brain and how it can maintain stability over rough and extreme terrains,” Agha said. “In addition to our capable traditional wheeled rovers, the ability to “walk” is a huge asset when dealing with uneven terrains with no roads and no flat surfaces.”
There are three main factors for the robot’s success:
It needs to be able to carry enough payload for its eyes, ears and brain to be able to traverse the challenging Martian or lunar terrain.
It needs to carry a meaningful amount of science instruments.
It must prove it can maintain a “reasonable” level of stability, speed and endurance on another world.
“We have these multiple mobile robots that can carry different instruments, as opposed to one big robot that’s going to have trouble traversing its terrain,” said deputy project lead Benjamin Morrell, referring to past Martian rovers.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-04-10 09:28:31

'The curse and silver lining of Martian dust storms'

https://www.space.com/hi-seas-valoria-3 … r-report-3

Caves
https://www.usgs.gov/news/caves-mars

SpaceNut · 2022-04-10 12:16:56

Seems we can just fine repost

main-qimg-f1ba0c6204d75a2a4d12d61f604621ea-lq

The image just does go to show that even when all we have are a few resources that man can adapt to a Mars under ground living with near to no issues.
Man's requirements to sustain life are simple
Air, Water, food, shelter and even the smallest amount of power all while salvaging materials from the ship we came in.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-06-27 06:09:25

Artificial photosynthesis can produce food without sunshine

https://www.thesciverse.com/2022/06/art … oduce.html

Turn CO2, H2O water, and electricity into food through a series of catalyzed reactions. Convert the CO2 into CO through an electrolytic process method with a silver catalyst on carbon paper cathode and an IrO2 anode.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-08-16 07:25:17

Mysterious life form discovered in lava caves - and they're been there for centuries

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-new … a-27571719

Want to live on the moon? New research shows parts of it may provide stable temperatures for humans

https://www.wcvb.com/article/parts-of-t … s/40788455

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-08-28 06:08:53

I might come back anotehr day and collect ideas and posts make a new topic on Subterranean Architecture

from other threads -

Void wrote:

Robert,

The only thing I could hope to offer per pressurized glass greenhouses is structural inversion. For instance, a dome could be made upside down, in a crater. Still glass is glass, even so, an inversion, will give more use of compressive methods, than the tensile methods. A glass dome, would then if inverted, (upside down), would involve more compressive imposition on the structure in the "Mega" view of the structure, but still the glass panes individually may suggest a concern on the individual pane level, a desire for inversion as well. That is how I think. I am still a weak sibling for courage on such methods, but I certainly celebrate the courage to think it out. I would always encourage, adventure in this direction. Mastering such methods should be our desire.

and

Palomar wrote:

It'd be interesting to see a vast network of trains on Mars.
--Cindy

and

kbd512 wrote:

Is there some reason why we cannot use vertical tunnel boring, case the shaft the way we do with oil wells, and then put an anchored dome on top?
Mix a finely powdered regolith with water, let it freeze solid, which may take a couple of days at most, and that will be an acceptable substitute for concrete if the walls of the tunnel shaft are well-insulated. RobertDyck said there are places in Canada and Siberia that are permafrost down hundreds of feet, despite the fact that Earth is much warmer than Mars. Mars is an ice cube. There's no telling how far down the permafrost extends, but it could be a mile or more. At a depth of a couple hundred feet at most, maybe as little as 75 feet for sake of practicality, these "ice concrete missile silos" could provide pressurized space without consuming too much steel or glass, while providing natural sunlight via the dome on top. We could do some sort of double-pane construction for the skylight to assure that an accident doesn't depressurize the entire building.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-09-06 04:21:39

Lunar Pit Morphology: Implications for Exploration
https://twitter.com/jgrplanets/status/1 … 7181585409

Speleologists?

Some Earth animals from the Mars needs Cave Divers, spelunking potholing experts

We have discussed the Troglophile and Troglobite creatures before perhaps cloning or engineering or adapting or engineering a creature that would one day live on Mars, move around inside its biosphere adapted to Lava tubes and Caves.
This blog covers many discovered subterranean species
Brachyuran Crabs (Decapoda) in the Limestone Caves of Thailand, with A Checklist of Freshwater Cave-dwelling Crabs in Southeast Asia
https://novataxa.blogspot.com/2022/02/c … iland.html
Ituglanis boticario A New Troglomorphic Catfish (Siluriformes: Trichomycteridae) from Mambaí Karst Area, central Brazil
https://novataxa.blogspot.com/2015/02/i … cario.html
A Most Remarkable Cave-specialized Trechine Beetle (Coleoptera, Carabidae, Trechinae) from southern China
https://novataxa.blogspot.com/2018/01/xuedytes.html
A New Species, the First Cave-dwelling Cyprinid Fish (Cypriniformes: Cyprinidae) in the Philippines, with Redescription of B. montanoi
https://novataxa.blogspot.com/2021/09/b … oleos.html

A New Genus for the Cavernicolous Crab Telphusa austeniana Wood-Mason, 1871 (Decapoda: Brachyura: Potamidae) from Meghalaya State, northeastern India
https://novataxa.blogspot.com/2020/05/krishnamon.html
of course many of these animals have their own rarity and must be protected

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-09-06 04:24:28)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-10-04 00:39:33

6 Incredible Caves You Can Actually Stay in on Your Next Trip
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/6-incre … 27589.html

'caves, which are all available to rent on Airbnb'

Fossil-Filled Australian Caves May Be 500,000 Years Older Than We Thought, Study Finds
https://www.sciencealert.com/fossil-fil … tudy-finds

Amos Rex art museum, Helsinki
https://www.inexhibit.com/mymuseum/amos … -helsinki/

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-10-09 16:12:14

Retro Future New Wave Scifi style Architects'

The Basics of Earth-Sheltered and Underground Homes
https://www.thespruce.com/what-are-unde … es-1821786

What Is an Earth-Sheltered Home?

When you build into the ground, the earth functions as a thermal mass, helping to maintain a comfortable interior temperature year-round. However, you must carefully plan the structure itself to carry the load of the earth.

KRAK Architects imagines subterranean house on Cretan coast
https://www.dezeen.com/2022/01/25/krak- … sa-katana/

Casa Katana's angular form is intended to mimic surrounding rock formations and resemble a "cut from a Katana" – a type of Japanese sword after which the house is named.

Meanwhile, its position underground would help to minimise its visual impact on the site and passively heat and cool its living spaces through thermal mass.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-10-09 16:14:02)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-02-19 12:00:25

2 hrs long talk

Exploring Caves on the Moon and Mars, by Dr. Pascal Lee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9g_Bc1VL3A

Caves have been discovered on the Moon and Mars. Caves on the Moon might contain ice, while caves on Mars might also harbor life. This talk will discuss how robots and humans could soon explore these mysterious underground alien worlds.

Underground dome house stays warm in Omaha winters
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oej6EvxBJkI

The Bewildering Architecture of Indoor Cities
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuOyygDRN-w

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#26 2018-02-13 21:43:07

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#27 2018-02-13 21:48:01

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#28 2018-02-14 13:52:17

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#29 2018-05-29 20:10:10

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#30 2018-05-30 04:24:39

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#31 2018-05-30 12:21:04

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#32 2019-03-27 19:56:42

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#33 2019-03-28 17:03:59

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#34 2019-03-29 04:46:55

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#35 2019-04-24 11:25:43

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#36 2019-04-24 12:10:47

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#37 2019-04-24 18:22:48

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#38 2019-04-24 18:37:19

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#39 2019-04-25 16:00:08

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#40 2019-04-25 21:08:06

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#41 2022-03-21 09:39:58

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#42 2022-04-10 09:28:31

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#43 2022-04-10 12:16:56

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#44 2022-06-27 06:09:25

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#45 2022-08-16 07:25:17

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#46 2022-08-28 06:08:53

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#47 2022-09-06 04:21:39

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#48 2022-10-04 00:39:33

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#49 2022-10-09 16:12:14

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

#50 2023-02-19 12:00:25

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

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