Shackleton Dome

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-10-04 19:24:19

Basic parameters for the dome
• Size: 25 miles in diameter/5,000 feet tall
• Main components: ◦ Dome
◦ Anchoring system
◦ Maintenance systems
◦ Catastrophic repair facility

• All assembly is via autonomous robotics
• All glass is manufactured in layers to enable thermal stress control
• Basic unit is a hexagonal pentagonal surface patch of glass with a titanium frame that interlocks with similar units
• Dome is anchored to bedrock
• Shield glass module is two to three meters thick
• Internal and external lattice work along with scaffolding for assembly
http://www.nss.org/settlement/moon/shackleton.html
Suppose we used the Interplanetary Transport System to establish a base on the Moon, a more modest goal than sending one million people to Mars. Lets talk about this Shackleton Crater Dome for instance. The ITS can deliver perhaps 300 tons to the Moon at a shot, this would be mining, refining and construction equipment.

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-10-04 19:32:00

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

http://www.nss.org/settlement/moon/Luna … ngs650.jpg
Basic parameters for the dome
• Size: 25 miles in diameter/5,000 feet tall
• Main components: ◦ Dome
◦ Anchoring system
◦ Maintenance systems
◦ Catastrophic repair facility
• All assembly is via autonomous robotics
• All glass is manufactured in layers to enable thermal stress control
• Basic unit is a hexagonal pentagonal surface patch of glass with a titanium frame that interlocks with similar units
• Dome is anchored to bedrock
• Shield glass module is two to three meters thick
• Internal and external lattice work along with scaffolding for assembly
http://www.nss.org/settlement/moon/shackleton.html
Suppose we used the Interplanetary Transport System to establish a base on the Moon, a more modest goal than sending one million people to Mars. Lets talk about this Shackleton Crater Dome for instance. The ITS can deliver perhaps 300 tons to the Moon at a shot, this would be mining, refining and construction equipment.

An Island Three would by comparison have about 250 square miles of living space, the Shackleton Dome would have 78.5 square miles, still it is a great deal more than the O'Neill Bernal Sphere Island One. So if an Island Three O'Neill Cylinder can hold 10 million, with similar living space, the shackleton Dome could be home to as many as 3 million.

The total mass of silica in the concept of this dome is approximately 1.6 x 10^10 tonnes. Completion of the dome in about 15 years would require mining rates on par with helium-3 production, which involve excavation, processing, and manufacturing rates approaching 250,000 tonnes per hour. For instance, the mining capability for tar sand at a typical facility is about 28,000 tonnes per hour.

Void · 2016-10-04 19:43:52

Tom,

Interesting, but likely beyond my skills to critique. I do like that they came up with a cryogenic way to save 4/5th of the air, if a dome breach occurred.

While I cannot due to my lack of credentials judge the validity of the stated methods to achieve the goals, I am encouraged by the article.

It is a grand design, but if it were me, I would simply build a network of much smaller containments, and would include inside of them methods for synthetic gravity augmentation, but spinning. I think such methods could occur now with the methods of hyperloop. Previously it had been said that spinning habitats could only be built on the smallest of worlds, because of the limitations of bearings.

I think that building on the Moon could be a very good notion.
1) Proximity to Earth.
2) Reduced need for spacecraft, once you got it going.
3) Autonomous robots could be directed by people on Earth with only 3 seconds delay. This would provide jobs on the Earth, and entertainment for people on Earth.
4) The Moon is much wetter than it was supposed after the Apollo missions.
5) I think synthetic gravity could be created effectively on the Moon now with Hyperloop methods.
6) Same surface area as the Americas, so, big.
7) Energy resources significant and rather predictable, more so than for Mars.

Nitrogen is going to be a problem, that's one reason why I would have a habitat within a habitat.
I would have lower pressure domes or spheres at 1/3 bar O2 (Mostly), and synthetic gravity rings at perhaps Skylab mixture levels.

This stated specification, seems to squander or require excessive Nitrogen: Quote;

What it will take to build a 25-mile-diameter, 5,000-foot-tall domed lunar city

That in my opinion is 4990 feet more of a Nitrogen bearing mixture than is needed. But it's their dream.

Honestly I don't trust domes, and would be inclined to choose artificial light for agriculture, especially most places on the Moon, but if they can pull it off, then whoopee!

A very entertaining post Tom.

Last edited by Void (2016-10-04 20:01:29)

karov · 2016-10-05 06:57:52

Why not few dozens to hundreds of meters wide and kilometers long lava tube?

http://www.siliconindia.com/shownews/Af … cid-2.html

http://www.currentscience.ac.in/Volumes/100/04/0524.pdf

thousands of them ...

they can be even illuminated by global system of fiber optics with natural light.

Void · 2016-10-05 07:26:49

Karov,

To me that seems reasonable.

Just one could put a team on the Moon to gather data on human medical reactions to the conditions. Animal studies might also be done, similarly.

Telepresence could be tested, of two types. From the cave to explore the local surface, and from Earth, to test the possibility that real useful work could be done that way.

I would think that with a tractor/trailer, apparatus, a small nuclear reactor, a habitat, and lab could be pulled into one of those lava tubes.

With that you would be able to answer many questions of what it would take to establish a population on the Moon, and also detailed study of the locality might occur.

Later, if for some reason it makes sense to make settlements of humans, then that could be done using whatever methods available are required. Such as synthetic gravity, or fiber optic transfer of light.

Last edited by Void (2016-10-05 07:27:21)

SpaceNut · 2016-10-05 19:48:47

I like the opening post Tom Kalbfus and have wondered why we are not there yet, Oh I know its not Nasa's Idea and all they are about is what is a jobs fare program and not really about anything other than going around in circles for science.....
So how do we get a space x interested or some one with enough cash to plant the seed of so much more in this image of the Shackleton Crater Dome.
We can do the science but we are also giving mankind a location for the future.....

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-10-05 21:41:23

It is literally a Lunar Analog to an orbiting O'Neill colony. the dome actually saves on mass because we don't need to build the ground, as in an O'Neill colony, so it should be easier to build, much of the material comes right from the Moon itself. the main enabling technology I would say is robotics, and of course cheaper transportation to get those robots there. The 3 second delay could be managed with some semi-smart robots. the controller on he ground, for instance indicates which rock to pick up, and the robot itself figures how to pick it up, and if it drops it, so what, there are plenty of other rocks on the Moon? You probably would need lots of robots on the Moon, as building a structure that size, even on Earth is unprecedented. I don't know of any 25-mile wide domes we have ever built on Earth. I think if the robots are semi-smart, they need not all be individually operated by a remote operator from Earth. Part of this technology might be found in the autonomous cars Google is developing. the robots need to be able to move around without bumping into things and getting stuck.

Void · 2016-10-06 07:15:34

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/3099-ah … s-grasp-or

“Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp,
Or what's a heaven for?”

Good.

I think everything posted here is in harmony. Start small, work your way up to the fantastic.

Last edited by Void (2016-10-06 07:17:45)

Void · 2016-10-06 07:31:15

Spacenut said:

I like the opening post Tom Kalbfus and have wondered why we are not there yet, Oh I know its not Nasa's Idea and all they are about is what is a jobs fare program and not really about anything other than going around in circles for science.....
So how do we get a space x interested or some one with enough cash to plant the seed of so much more in this image of the Shackleton Crater Dome.
We can do the science but we are also giving mankind a location for the future.....

There is some thought that the New Glen Rocket could re-acquire Moon capability.
http://www.themanufacturer.com/articles … ket-plans/
A-comparison-of-the-New-Glenn-rocket-alongside-other-current-and-historic-craft.-Image-courtesy-of-Blue-Origin..jpg

SpaceX and others may or may not choose to compete.

And,
I am quite sure that if China/Russia/Etc. start offering rides to the Moon for science, our National/Cohort community will not rest easy sitting on the sidelines.

So the Moon whether they like it or not I think.

https://www.wired.com/2015/04/jeff-bezo … ip-rocket/

To the Moon?
http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/09/ … -the-moon/

His style seems to be more careful, and quiet.

Granted orbital capabilities will be far more challenging, but I like this, 2 or 3 entities trying to get some version of re-usable hardware to reduce costs.

Last edited by Void (2016-10-06 07:52:01)

Antius · 2016-10-06 14:00:10

If the dome is 5000' high and air density is Earth sea level, then column density is 1.8tonnes of air per square m. That is sufficient cosmic ray shielding. No need for shield glass. If the dome is a counterweighted steel frame structure, it could be relatively thin and therefore affordable. A simple structure made from mass-produced sections bolted together. You can do that on the moon because it has gravity. In a purely tensile free-space structure, the required thickness of steel members goes up very rapidly as radius of curvature increases. Glass panes can be thin and can be replaced quickly is holed.

Last edited by Antius (2016-10-06 14:03:56)

Void · 2016-10-06 15:56:11

Nice.

SpaceNut · 2016-10-06 19:15:29

Will be interesting to see the New Glen rocket as it will most likely make use of the new engines that they are working on that could be used for the Atlas V or in the next generation rocket for Boeing....

Void · 2016-10-06 22:18:29

It is encouraging that somehow it appears that things that seem good can happen against all expectations (As provided to us ).

SpaceNut · 2016-10-07 20:28:04

I am reminded of the old Moon Direct topics to aid in filling in lots of thoughts but what they did not have as part of the discussion where the commercial industry flyers to make use of in Space X and others that are coming along fast to reaching orbit.
So lets say we did start small with a clasic 1 to 2 ton modified rover that is capable of attachments for being a dozer, a buckerloader ect... to allow for moving of materials as well as processing them into what we need. So robotics that can test the elemental composition of what is scooped up is a first step in building with insitu materials. So we do not build a 25 dome right away but attempt a feat that we can do here on earth for scale of a first project.

This would allow for a first manned base location to build the larger dome around the first and then the next an so forth making each larger than the first as we steadily increment the amount of equipment to make all of this possible.

Void · 2016-10-07 23:48:19

Well then we are talking humble seeds I think.

For my part, manufacture of Oxygen would be the primary desire on the material side, study of the history of the Moon, being the value from the intellectual/spiritual side.

If someone could go to the Moon, and expect to be given Oxygen, then they can reduce what they must take with them. I would be thinking this would be the early motions of humans returning to the Moon for brief visits. And of course to accomplish this they would be on the Moon on a permanent basis through telepresence. Not a bad accomplishment.

That then could lead to some kind of a potential to stay over during a full day/night cycle on the Moon, which no human has ever done, but that is what would next in a progression towards your giant dome/machine.

And I would not dismiss lava tubes as a vehicle to get you there.

Baby Steps.

Void · 2016-10-08 00:12:24

And then beyond that we have Ceres.

In a solar system without Mars, perhaps humans would have already considered that our Moon and Ceres have an abundance of what is needed.

Nitrogen? Ceres, if not the Moon.

Water, well the Moon appears to have some, but Ceres has much. Solar Cells can be used on both of these worlds. The Moon, with infrastructure, and mated with Earth based telepresence on the Moon, could provide needed structured materials generated on the Moon.

Of course, just a proposed snapshot, of a proposed episode in the future history of the human race (If not dead).

I choose to think that alive is better than dead, and motion, is a demonstration of life.

If we are not dead, then lets do something. What we might do after we are dead is another matter.

karov · 2016-10-08 03:12:38

The dome could be a mosaic of water bags.

Void · 2016-10-08 08:10:04

Well, I feel that perhaps I am stepping on Tom's show, but I guess I will do it anyway.

I am more in the GW camp, (If he can tolerate it), I feel we should always think in terms of small starts, but of course our aim is towards greater accomplishments. Baby Steps, until we are not a baby anymore.

Some people here have a Mars obsession. All else must be canceled so that we can have a flag dance/prance on Mars someday. They also hope that some offshoot could somehow survive on it's own, strait from the start, on figurative soil which is not even at it's best, in any way kind. Inflated notions off human abilities, ignoring what favors nature might be offering, however meager they are. But, the potential for the benefit is great. But the pathways to those goals seem treacherous to me.

The reason I favor multiple directions in space are similar to how you get a good fire going. A one log fire? See how that works out. But the reflection from a number of pieces of wood, onto each other and the flow of Oxygen, give a better effect.

But back to the Moon, Ceres, and it seems, water bags.

Water bag implies plastic bags filled with water.

Such a use on the Moon would imply imports from Ceres, otherwise, the meager supply on the Moon should not be used in such a way. Imports from Ceres would follow an establishment of a solar economy which should really require some time passage before it becomes real.

So, to get to the place where you can have water bags on the Moon, and giant domes, you first must have a starter technology. I do think you mentioned lava tubes.

And Tom and I have mentioned telepresence on the Moon of various types involving humans coupled to "Robots" with sufficient ability to do short time routines, to hopefully do useful work.

Ceres might be a great place to see what one could do with water bags.

But before I would do that I would still build a protecting structure, made of metal and glass, in a vacuum, to protect your waterbag method. The space environment is too harsh to expose water bags to directly. A protective epidermis of metal and glass should be desired, to even think of doing it.

Last edited by Void (2016-10-08 08:29:48)

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-10-08 15:28:18

The Moon has silicon and lots of it. I wonder if its possible to make a silicon based plastic instead of a carbon based one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicone
The Moon lacks carbon, but has plenty of silicon I think we can use silicone based plastic for construction on the Moon. What do you think of that?

Void · 2016-10-08 16:39:02

Good notions, I think Tom. I would think something might be done. I am not qualified to say how or what though.

SpaceNut · 2016-10-08 20:10:51

Here is a page on insitu https://ninesights.ninesigma.com/web/na … -materials

http://www.frc.ri.cmu.edu/project/lri/scarab/isru.pdf

http://www.asi.org/adb/02/08/solar-cell-production.html Which include Synthesis of Silane

electrical power http://www.spaceagepub.com/pdfs/Ignatiev.pdf

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-08-08 06:30:18

Using already existing craters might be a quick way to start a Biodome or Biosphere, many think we will still dig in due to the lack of atmosphere and dangers of micrometeorites.

His name was the Apollo-13 of its time.

The crater has also been proposed as a future site for a large infrared telescope.

Shackleton was also the site of the first lunar base in the fictional Mass Effect a video game animated movie franchise, it was chosen as a location due to its habitability and hypothesised water ice deposits inside the xbox playstation video game universe.

Maybe in the future he will become a thing of folklore you could drop a broke cargo ship on his head, smash him with an iceberg and then have mystical creature like some space Zeus hit him with a thunder bolt and the guy would just keep going.

Shackleton’s Legendary Endurance Expedition 1914-1917
https://www.sunjournal.com/2022/08/05/s … 1914-1917/

Endless Ice
https://bostonreview.net/articles/endless-ice/

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-08-08 06:39:55)

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#1 2016-10-04 19:24:19

Shackleton Dome

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