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#126 2022-07-29 03:53:02

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 3,360

Re: Booze

Seems like an addiction Booze or Drugs would be a bad thing, but have it go under ground in a colony and why allow a Mars Mafia to sell it?


US Administration Plans for Legal Psychedelic Therapies Within Two Years
https://theintercept.com/2022/07/26/mdm … -fda-ptsd/

Craft Liquor Producers are Thriving in Saskatchewan
https://panow.com/2022/07/28/craft-liqu … katchewan/

NewMarsMember wrote:


A craft brewer that made a brew with THC would seem to be very much in the modern flow of things.

Impact of legalizing THC-infused edibles, drinks
https://www.wxow.com/news/daybreak/impa … b5eac.html
Jones Soda Launches Line of THC-Spiked Drinks
https://www.seattlemet.com/eat-and-drin … drink-line

maybe an addiction is not always good?

and the other side

Use of some cannabis makes you five-times more likely to develop psychosis
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-n … e-24586940

How To Detox From THC: Proven Methods To Detox Quickly
https://washingtoncitypaper.com/article … x-quickly/

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-07-29 03:57:08)

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#127 2022-07-29 07:19:13

BeerMan
Member
From: United States
Registered: 2020-11-05
Posts: 15

Re: Booze

Hops are a very close relative to cannabis.  Hops are used for the bittering of beer.  The wort, or sugar water, from the mash tun and boil kettle is very sweet.  It's a bit like the milk that's left in the bowl after eating Grape Nuts cereal.  There are a lot of other ingredients, other than hops and cannabis, which can be used to bitter beer.  Birch was used in the past, for example.  So, I don't think it's a binary choice of cannabis vs. hops.

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#128 2022-07-29 11:16:56

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,289
Website

Re: Booze

Hello BeerMan,
Over a thousand years ago a group called the Picts lived in what is now Scotland. Picts used heather as a bittering agent for beer. And I mean common heather, not white heather. It grows wild in Scotland, its a common weed. They came up with a recipe for delicious beer. The recipe was kept secret for a long time, the Scots tried to force Picts to reveal their secret. Without going on with gory details, they finally got it. Pict beer was made with heather, yarrow, and sweet gale. There are other names for these herbs. When Scots invented distilling, they adapted this same recipe to make whisky. That's where Scotch whisky came from.

A common bitter agent was dandelion. Not the only one, but very common. Then in the 11th century the Bavarians conducted a formal study to find something that would taste good yet preserve beer the longest. They discovered hops. Technically, hops were cultivated in Bavaria starting 736, but wasn't widely used to make beer until the 11th century.

This website claims ancient brewers used a mixture of herbs (such as sweet gale, yarrow or mugwort) called gruit. But that was phased out in favour of hops between the 11th and 16th centuries.

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#129 2022-07-30 14:16:29

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 3,360

Re: Booze

German breweries may have to stop making beers as Putin's actions threaten Oktoberfest

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-new … s-27617353

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#130 2022-08-01 14:31:06

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 3,360

Re: Booze

In Latin America, synthetic drugs becoming more popular than cocaine and marijuana

https://www.dw.com/en/in-latin-america- … a-62633710

Heineken profits surge as drinkers swallow higher prices

https://news.yahoo.com/heineken-profits … 51013.html

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#131 2022-08-03 06:07:15

BeerMan
Member
From: United States
Registered: 2020-11-05
Posts: 15

Re: Booze

Hey, everyone, thanks for the links and for the history of bittering beer.  I think all of this shows how beer adapts to challenges over time and reflects local and regional conditions.  I wonder if the same will happen for Martian beer.  Brewers have had to improvise in rough conditions.  Steam beer is an example:  https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/styles/132/

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#132 2022-08-03 18:57:08

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,989

Re: Booze

Thanks for coming back BeerMan to not only add content but to also help us gain in the knowledge of brewing...

What do we do with a beer that is not fit for consumption as can it be used to do something else with it as water seems to be becoming an in-demand item these days?

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#133 2022-08-04 06:12:30

BeerMan
Member
From: United States
Registered: 2020-11-05
Posts: 15

Re: Booze

It's my pleasure to be a participant in this very interesting forum.

What to do with "spoiled beer" is a tough issue.  There's really not much that you can do with the product if people can't drink it.  Sadly, most breweries dump their bad beer right down the drain.  I'm not aware of a process that can reclaim the water from spoiled beer, but I'm guessing there must be some way to do it.

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#134 2022-08-04 06:54:24

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,969

Re: Booze

BeerMan wrote:

It's my pleasure to be a participant in this very interesting forum.

What to do with "spoiled beer" is a tough issue.  There's really not much that you can do with the product if people can't drink it.  Sadly, most breweries dump their bad beer right down the drain.  I'm not aware of a process that can reclaim the water from spoiled beer, but I'm guessing there must be some way to do it.

Why not distill it?  In Europe, brandy making originally started as a means of upgrading spoiled or acrid wines.  What remains, could be used to water crops.

On Mars, any waste organic materials will either be input to an anaerobic digester, making methane and fertiliser, or used as direct feedstock for synthetic fuel or plastics production.  It is energetically much easier to start with a reduced carbon containing material if you are making synthetic hydrocarbons.  There will be a strong incentive to integrate processes on Mars, such that wastes from one process become inputs to others.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-08-04 07:02:43)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#135 2022-08-04 06:57:00

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 10,829

Re: Booze

For BeerMan ... thank you for continuing to help this forum by pitching in as you are inspired!

FYI .... SpaceNut is working on (or at least thinking about) recovery of fresh water from liquid mixtures.   I am hoping that SpaceNut's interest in this important field will ultimately lead to discovery of a "universal' water recovery method.  However, recovery of valuable molecules from unsuccessful beer brewing will be especially challenging.

On Mars there won't ** be ** any doubt.  ** Every ** molecule on Mars will be valuable so NONE will be discarded.

If a Mars resident happens to own a nuclear reactor, and is therefore energy rich, ** that ** person may discard waste the way Earth people do, but very few residents will be so energy rich, and for them, recovering ** every ** molecule will provide a low margin way of earning an honest living.

Please encourage SpaceNut to document his investigations as he proceeds.

NewMars now has a permanent data storage solution using DropBox.

If you ever wish to conduct an online meeting to advance some project, NewMars has a Professional Zoom account and two co-hosts who ** should ** be able to set up a meeting at a time that is convenient for you.

(th)

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#136 2022-08-04 10:38:00

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,289
Website

Re: Booze

There are couple primary methods of sewage processing on Earth. A Mars settlement will most likely use one of them. Grey water sewage processing uses microbes to break down sewage into fertilizer. Basically, a septic tank, followed by an algae tank, followed by more biological processing. Another system is a composting toilet. This carefully ensured solid human waste (feces) are never mixed with liquid human waste (urine). By keeping them separate from the beginning, solid waste will compost to become rich fertilizer that can be used in a garden or agricultural field. I have read that composting solid waste smells like wet soil, not like an outhouse. When you mix solid and liquid waste, then it promotes different microbes that smell like an outhouse. When liquid waste is kept separate, again microbes are different than when they're mixed. Liquid waste breaks down to form nitrogen rich fertilizer, however it's extremely rich in nitrogen and very salty. This can be used as fertilizer for hydroponics after about 6 months.

When I was in elementary school, one field trip was to the city sewage processing plant. It started with a large pool about the size of an Olympic swimming pool, but you REALLY don't want to swim in that. Metal rakes across the surface removed toilet paper. Then it was sent to round settling tanks. Solid waste settled to the bottom, liquid waste was drawn off. Solid waste was taken out of the liquid, put in large steel tanks called "digesters" where bacteria broke it down. When the bacteria were finished, the result was called "night soil", which would be spread by a truck on a farm field. To prevent contamination by disease, "night soil" was only used to fertilize crops for livestock. Manure from livestock was used to fertilize crops for humans. The hope was any disease that may have been present in sewage will not be compatible with a different species. The liquid was aerated with oxygen, to promote urea breaking down to CO2 and ammonia. An oxygen plant was part of the city sewage processing plant; it concentrated oxygen from air.

Some European cities have an artificial swamp as the final stage of sewage processing. The liquid waste is put through this swamp, and plants extract nutrients. Microbes break down any urea that was not broken down by oxygen, also resulting in ammonia. Another species of microbe convert ammonia to nitrite (NO2). Another microbe converts that to nitrate (NO3). Plants absorb nitrate as nitrogen fertilizer. Plants also absorb phosphate. Many cities add orthophosphate to drinking water, which ultimately goes down the drain. Orthophosphate binds with lead in old lead pipes and lead solder, creating lead orthophosphate scale that is supposed to prevent lead dissolving into drinking water. Of course it doesn't completely stop it, only slows it down. When humans drink water with lead orthophosphate, it absorbs into blood more slowly than pure lead. When it's in your blood, it causes lead poisoning more slowly than pure lead. So every step the orthophosphate doesn't stop it, just slows it down. But cities do this instead of digging up lead pipes and replacing them with copper. Orthophosphate is pure phosphate with nothing attached. For plants it's extremely rich phosphate fertilizer. An artificial swamp will absorb the phosphate. When the swamp is finished, water is as clean as a natural stream or river.

On Mars, any bad beer poured down the drain will be processed by the city sewage system. The result will be "river water" that can be further processed to become drinking water. It's a slow process that requires a lot of land, but less energy intensive than harvesting ice and processing that. Realize ice on Mars will have salt, perchlorate, and mud mixed in.

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#137 2022-08-05 07:02:06

BeerMan
Member
From: United States
Registered: 2020-11-05
Posts: 15

Re: Booze

For Caliban--it is possible to distill beer and make whiskey.  However, a brewery is not the same as a distillery.  Unless there is also a distillery on Mars as well, or someone with distillation equipment to match the volume of beer intended to be distilled, there will be wastage.  It makes sense to try to recover the molecules and repurpose them, as tahanson43206 suggests.  That's beyond my ken as a humble craft brewery owner.

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#138 2022-08-05 07:14:22

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 10,829

Re: Booze

For BeerMan,

In order for My Hacienda to succeed in creating a robust community on Mars, it ** must ** have located commercial enterprise able and willing to set up shop on Mars.

You are the ** first ** commercial enterprise to show any serious interest in the proposition.

I would like to remind everyone involved, that BeerMan was recommended to NewMars Forum by Executive Director James Burik.

I am interested in proposing to the Board of Directors of the Mars Society that the BeerMan enterprise be granted a franchise to deliver product to Mars Society members who select an optional premium for membership.

My question to you is: Do you have the brewing capacity to serve such an audience?

What would you be able to offer?

Finally, and most importantly, can you do this in a spirit of building a set of 7800 interacting and mutually supportive commercial enterprises?  The initial configuration would be constructed on Earth, with the intention of moving the entire operation to Mars when the means are available.

(th)

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#139 2022-08-05 18:24:50

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,989

Re: Booze

That is ok Beerman as its more of a question of what we can do with it and not so much what we do in a small-scale brewery.

This would also be a question for all other water-based products as well that are booze as well as those that are not.

As RobertDyck, suggests dump it in with the other waste and process it similar to what is used on the ISS.

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#140 2022-08-06 03:37:43

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 3,360

Re: Booze

400-year-old Ecuadoran beer resurrected from yeast

https://phys.org/news/2022-08-year-old- … yeast.html

not sure if tastes like the original beer...

"Carvajal, who comes from a brewing family, found an article in an industry magazine that vaguely described the formula for the Franciscans' 16th century drink.

Little by little, he pieced together bits of information to revive the brew with cinnamon, fig, clove and sugarcane flavors.

"There were a massive number of holes in the recipe and my job was to fill those holes," said Carvajal."

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#141 2022-08-08 02:08:12

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 3,360

Re: Booze

On Mars the 'person' with Cannabis, Beer for sale might be a Robot?

Researchers Build a Bartending Robot That Can Engage In Personalized Interactions With Humans
https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/22/ … ith-humans

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#142 2022-08-08 06:05:04

BeerMan
Member
From: United States
Registered: 2020-11-05
Posts: 15

Re: Booze

For Mars_B4_Moon--your recommended link reminded me of this piece:  https://www.goodbeerhunting.com/blog/20 … s-we-drink   As with most trends and technology, we are already building the future here in the present.

Just some additional information on beer measurements to help understand a brewery's production capacity.  The standard measurement is a barrel (bbl), which is 31 gallons.  For those who are more visual learners, a bbl is the equivalent to two full size kegs that you may have typically seen in college or in some bars.  There are 8 pints to a gallon, meaning a standard keg will have around 40 pints.  I use "around" because of foam and wastage will reduce the number from 40.

With this in mind, and as a point of comparison, Budweiser produces 53 MILLION barrels every year.  My little brewery will be lucky to produce around 8000 barrels this year.  Most of our sales are in our taproom.  We do not have a canning line and anything we distribute are in kegs in our local area.  Our capacity to produce or distribute more is quite limited by our resources and by law (for example, we cannot ship out of state).

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#143 2022-08-08 07:45:46

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 10,829

Re: Booze

For Beerman re #142

Thank you for providing a bit more information about your operation.

It sounds (to me at least) as though there are alternative pathways that you (as an entrepreneur) must be evaluating as you proceed.

One option is to stay the course, and that seems (again, to me at least) like a reasonable idea.

You've already made substantial initial investment in the enterprise, and (I'm guessing) you have reinvested in order to grow to your present size.

it may well be that you are content to hold steady at this point, and deal with the many challenges of just keeping going.

However, my proposal that the Mars Society offer a premium for an annual renewal of one of your offerings would require more investment, most notably for the license that would be needed for out of state package sales.

I am pursuing this line of thought with the understanding that the Mars enterprise is going to succeed almost entirely by virtue of the power of the Capitalist system.  In order for the community to succeed on Mars, it ** must ** have a robust, interwoven set of capitalist enterprises, or we will be dealing with government operations.

Most of the folks currently active on the forum would (I suspect) prefer a system of free enterprise to a government run system, but the future is going to be won by the culture that cares more than others to make their vision come to life on Mars.

China is demonstrating a curious mixture of capitalism and government control that looks ** really ** potent.   Whether their system will survive over the long term, and especially when it is attempted on Mars, is not clear.

What ** is ** clear is that a well designed set of free enterprises, gathered to support each other as the My Hacienda topic would propose, ** can ** succeed, because it already has, on Earth.

You are the first member of the forum who might be a candidate for participation in the Mars project.

OF 1939 built a business in the chemical industry, and employed people, so he was a 'Job Creator"

Most of us are "Job Holders", and grateful to be able to achieve at that level.

However, the ** real ** heart of a capitalist society are the "Job Creators", of whom I gather you are one.

So!  If the subject is of interest, please explain what investments would  be required to support the delivery of packaged goods out of state.  There will be licensing expenses, plant expenses and personnel expenses.

Because all this would require borrowing money, the cost of that money would factor into a business plan.

I have no idea what the potential market for premium memberships in the Mars Society might be, but it might be possible for the Mars Society itself to take an internal poll to provide some insight.

The Capitalist system requires taking risk.  Job Holders, by definition, take the risk of learning a skill and seeking employment.  Job Creators take so many more risks, there is almost no comparison.

(th)

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#144 2022-08-08 16:40:54

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 3,360

Re: Booze

Personally I still wonder if Mars should have rules when it comes to 'beer' yet it is bad to be a puritan or zealot, even some ancient monks from the East and West in pure times would enjoy a drink.

However it happens in the difficult environment of South Pole.

'Yes there really is a pub at the Ukrainian Vernadskiy Base'

Thirsty Thursdays: Drinking in Antarctica – Top 6 Places For a Beer
https://dontstopliving.net/thirsty-thur … or-a-beer/
South Pole suds: A glimpse into Antarctica’s unlikely beer culture
https://growlermag.com/south-pole-suds- … r-culture/


Americans aren’t totally at a loss when it comes to enjoying a beer on the ice, though. Beer is available for purchase in the bars at McMurdo Station, the logistics hub for the U.S. Antarctic Program, located on Ross Island. Though once a year, when the annual cargo ship and refueling ship arrive in McMurdo, the bars close for the duration of “ship operations” and McMurdo becomes a dry town, according to U.S. Antarctic Program spokesperson Peter West.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-08-08 16:41:32)

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#145 2022-08-08 19:41:49

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,989

Re: Booze

Beerman is the keg's reused and what process being there for the reuse of them as that would be a critical step on mars for the brewery size.

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#146 2022-08-09 05:23:43

BeerMan
Member
From: United States
Registered: 2020-11-05
Posts: 15

Re: Booze

That's interesting about beer at the South Pole--beer will find a way.

SpaceNut, kegs are made of aluminum and are cleaned then reused.  Our brewery is small, which means we often will either A) wash them by hand or B) ask a larger brewery if we can use its keg washer.

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#147 2022-08-10 10:39:19

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 3,360

Re: Booze

Japanese craft brewery and tech company to simulate making beer on Moon and Mars

https://soranews24.com/2022/07/28/japan … -and-mars/

Since it started in 2018, Derailleur has created over 100 types of craft beer, but are now preparing to create varieties that the world has never seen.

Given its role in converting sugar into alcohol, it’s fair to say that yeast is a significant factor in the overall flavor of a beer. But how does gravity effect these microorganisms? We don’t really know, but Derailleur is going to find out with the help of DigitalBlast.

DigitalBlast is the Tokyo-based company that created the AMAZ gravity generator. This machine can be set to simulate a desired gravitational pull using its own centrifugal force. To do this it must first be installed in the microgravity environment of the ISS, a step scheduled for 2024.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-08-10 10:40:18)

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#148 2022-08-10 11:05:40

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 10,829

Re: Booze

For Mars_B4_Moon re #147

Thanks for this particularly interesting (to me for sure) post, with link to work being done by Japanese to test the gravity prescription on yeast.

This experiment is decades over due, and I note that it is happening in a culture other than the United States.

The United States could have done this decades ago, but for whatever reason, the research was either never considered at all, or funded if it was considered.

It's not too late for the United States to make up for lost time.

It would take intervention by a member of Congress to shift priorities to make it happen.

Every Citizen has ** two ** Senators and ** one ** Congressional Representative.

All three would be an ideal combination to launch a bill to encourage NASA to carry out this line of inquiry.

(th)

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#149 2022-08-11 05:33:40

BeerMan
Member
From: United States
Registered: 2020-11-05
Posts: 15

Re: Booze

Mars_B4_Moon, thanks for the interesting article.  Understanding the effects of low gravity on yeast is particularly important for the fermentation process.  Generally speaking, there are two categories of brewing yeast--ale and lager.  Ale yeast is top-fermenting while lager yeast is bottom fermenting and requires colder temperatures.  "Lager" comes from the German word "to store," which is what lager brewers would do--they would store their barrels of beer in colder areas over weeks or months to allow for fermentation.

Regardless of the type of yeast, on Mars, to compensate for low gravity, any type of fermentation vessel will have to incorporate a type of vacuum to get the yeast to fall.  This will create stress on the yeast and will affect the flavor.  The proposed Japanese simulation should provide some interesting data.  But I'd be curious about the flavor profile.

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#150 2022-08-11 06:29:13

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 3,360

Re: Booze

There might also soon be ways to do this by way of Robots and Smaller Sats but maybe they need a 'hands on' presence for experiment on the ISS.

You can launch gravity experiments inside contained satellite vessels with A.I bots today, the Private sector has the ability to build such an experiment.

Past examples of biological experiments were done on Satellites, STS Shuttle, Bion Soviet Russian sats, Foton-M which carried a European payload, successfully tested the ability of lichen to survive 14 days of exposure in space. There was also a simulated gravity experiment pushed by the Mars Society but cut due to lack of funding and shifting priorities at NASA. Many proposals from around the world have pushed new ideas and have incorporated artificial gravity into their design. The artificial gravity experiment on Earth previously sounded like something that would only be done on a falling Vomit-Comet aircraft or with ferromagnetic materials, such as iron, steel, nickel, cobalt, etc. but recently they gave Anti-Gravity or Artificial minus gravity effect to a 'Frog', in January 2022 China was reported by the South China Morning Post to have built a small 60 centimeters 24 in diameter research facility to simulate low lunar gravity with the help of magnets, it was reportedly partly inspired by the work of Andre Geim and Michael Berry both shared the Nobel Prize for the magnetic levitation of a frog. There are also levitation experiments done with Super conductors 'Quantum Locking' or ideas like Optical Levitation used in biology and medicine to grab and hold a single bacterium or blood cell, and acoustic levitation by Levitate Objects With Sound,  perhaps with the Private Sector and other Companies opening up new ideas for designs and exploration these experiments will soon be done. Mars Gravity is only about 38% as strong as it is on Earth, and the long-term effects of such reduced gravity on plant and human are unknown, here are links to the Chinese news.
https://futurism.com/the-byte/china-art … on-magnets
,
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science … conditions

maybe it is more effective and cheaper to still do these kinds of experiments on a station like the ISS.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-08-11 06:46:16)

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