Booze

RobertDyck · 2022-07-05 05:47:30

Calliban wrote:

No one really bothers researching this too far on Earth because grapes and grains are relatively cheap.

Tequila is made from agave. It comes from an arid area of Mexico where grapes and grains don't grow well, but agave is native.

Sake is made from rice.

Cognac is interesting. Grapes grown in a particular area of France produce wine that tastes really bad. I mean horrible. So the local lord distilled the wine in an attempt to make it palatable. Distilled wine is called brandy. However, this particular brandy has a unique flavour. Although the wine is horrible, distilling it produced a brandy with unique and complex flavours. Cognac is now the most expensive brandy.

Bourbon: not less than 51% corn (maize). Yes, it includes barley, but the primary role of barley is to produce amylase that converts corn starch into sugar for fermentation. Corn is a C4 plant. C3 plants have difficulty competing with weeds because the Calvin-Benson cycle, aka dark reaction of photosynthesis, is optimized for an atmosphere with much MUCH more CO2 than we have today. When the ratio of O2:CO2 is too high, oxygen binds instead of CO2. That creates a waste product that must be recycled. C4 plants concentrate CO2 in tissues of their leaves to minimize this. Although concentrating CO2 takes energy, it reduces the waste so much that it's worth it. Most food crops are C3 plants, they can't do this, but corn is a C4 plant. So corn does the same thing that weeds do. This means corn grows plentiful. Technically corn is a grain, but yield is much greater than other grains.

Vodka: can be made from grain, but was traditionally made from potato. Potato produce more starch per acre. A small amount of barley is used to produce amylase, to convert starch to sugar. Potatoes are boiled to produce mashed potato, the potatoes are mashed in the hot water they are boiled, then before the water can cool the amylase is added to convert starch to malt sugar. That is fermented, then distilled to produce vodka. It's distilled to about 70% alcohol, then diluted with water to 40%.

Sweet potato: optimal growing conditions are completely different than for regular potatoes, but comparing sweet potatoes grown in optimal growing conditions to regular potatoes grown in optimal growing conditions for that crop, sweet potatoes produce much more carbohydrate. Although this carbohydrate tastes very sweet, it isn't the right type of sugar for yeast. Yeast cannot consume this sugar, cannot convert to alcohol. Well, most. With regular potatoes, 3 to 17 pounds of potato produce one 750ml bottle of vodka. With sweet potato, 25 pounds produce one bottle. Enzymes can convert the sugar to something yeast can consume; one company found an enzyme that produce a bottle of vodka from 10 to 15 pounds of sweet potato. The problem is the liquor doesn't taste like sweet potato. So needs work.

I have suggested an oxygen generator for life support. It would use in-vitro chloroplasts harvested from leaves of a plant. The easiest plant from which to harvest chloroplasts is a pea. Whether green peas or yellow field peas. That will produce pea starch as a byproduct. That starch can be broken down to sugar using amylase. Beta amylase is produced by grain, but gamma amylase is produced by a type of mould that grows on fruit; it can be commercially produced by growing on sugary left-overs such as sugar cane after all the syrup has been squeezed out. Commercial sugar is made from the syrup, but the left-over pulp can be used to grow the mould for gamma amylase. A different mould can be grown on that pulp to produce citric acid, but this discussion is about booze. Beta amylase from grain produces malt sugar. Gamma amylase from that mould produces dextrose, a form of glucose. You can distill that to produce vodka. This is why I have argued vodka will be a major product for early space exploration.

You can grow that mould on starch, such as pea starch from the oxygen generator. Dextrose can be used as white sugar for cooking, etc, but it's sweeter that sucrose, which is normal white table sugar. Today in Canada and northern states such as North Dakota, sugar beets are grown for sugar. They're processed, produce white sugar. However, if you want golden yellow sugar, or brown sugar, or dark brown sugar, then you have to add molasses to white sugar. Sugar beets can produce molasses, but it tastes horrible. Molasses for golden or brown sugar comes from sugar cane.

One company is engineering algae to produce sugar instead of oil. The purpose is ethanol as fuel. But ethanol is the type of alcohol in beverages, so can be produced in a pure form as a beverage. Will someone produce a distilled alcoholic beverage from algae? Make it strong and cheap and someone will buy it.

Calliban · 2022-07-05 17:17:24

Robert, well done for a classic post! I wonder if chloroplast storage life can be improved by chilling the packs?

In previous discussions, you mentioned that food grown in waste water tends to taste like shit. Maybe fermenting and distilling is a solution that will work here? Hopefully, the shit taste will be left behind.

If sugars can be produced by algae (or even by pure chemistry) then it can be used to produce mycoprotein (Quorn). Other ingredients can be added to adjust it's flavour.

I like the idea of distilling from algae glucose. What is interesting is that all sorts of ingredients can be blended into the mash to add flavour to the final product. The room for experimentation would appear to be almost endless.

Bathtub gins are created by soaking different botanicals in pure alchohol post distillation. This is another avenue to explore. Vodka tends to be used for mixers, unless one happens to be an alcoholic. Those people drink it neat.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-07-05 17:26:54)

RobertDyck · 2022-07-06 13:37:12

Calliban wrote:

I wonder if chloroplast storage life can be improved by chilling the packs?

Human semen is stored by freezing in liquid nitrogen. These are whole cells, although single cells and small. A sample is thawed for invito fertilization. Even human embryos can be frozen in liquid nitrogen. Whole humans cannot be frozen in liquid nitrogen, because ice crystals form that slice through cell membranes like a knife. They key is size.

I said bags of chloroplats would have lines sealed with an ultrasonic sealer so the bags look like an air mattress. The channels will direct water flow so an aquarium pump can circulate water within the bag. That will promote oxygen to pass through the semipermeable membrane. Narrow channels should also allow freezing in liquid nitrogen.

BeerMan · 2022-07-09 05:32:18

Even as an owner of a craft brewery, I have to confess that brewing is a wasteful activity. We consume plenty of water and power. There's also the issue of spent grain. Fortunately, we're able to donate it to a local livestock farmer as feed.

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-09 05:44:37

For BeerMan re #104

Thanks for your "Real Universe" experience!

On Mars, ** everything ** would have value.

To try and get the process of NewMars members working with your data, could you (would you?) provide specifics?

I'm hoping that specific data might be published without giving competitors an advantage?

I'm ** also ** hoping that NewMars members will take up the challenge of imagining how ** every ** molecule produced might be utilized.

Thanks (again) for your unique perspective!

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-09 05:49:08

For SpaceNut ...

Is there any reason why BeerMan would be discouraged from offering samples of his company products for distribution to NewMars members for "scientific research". The costs would be covered as a "donation" since this is a non-profit organization.

Each participant would be expected to provide specific data about the sample. The specific data to be collected is open for suggestion, but I would expect at a minimum:

1) Mass of the sample
2) Volume of the sample
3) Evaluation of the sample (consumer assessment)
4) Subjective evaluation of suitability for Mars

(th)

RobertDyck · 2022-07-09 17:32:34

For BeerMan re #104

As previously stated, thank you for real universe experience. However, this is one reason I suggested Vodka would be common on Mars. Chloroplast oxygen generators would produce pure starch. Growing a particular type of mould on starch will produce gamma amylase. That amylase can be used to convert starch to dextrose sugar. Not the same starch, it would have to be fresh starch. Yes, the starch used to grow mould could be used as animal feed. The pure starch mixed with amylase will convert close to 100% to sugar. Nothing is every 100% efficient, but mostly. What can be done is 100% of what's left will be fermented. So any starch that was not converted to sugar will still be part of the "mash" used to make vodka. However, distillation will produce roughly 70% alcohol, which is then diluted with water to 40% alcohol for vodka. The lees will be mostly dead yeast, but anything that didn't convert to alcohol will be included.

I expect red wine will be a major product on Mars. The reason is lees from red wine can be easily processed with hot water to produce cream of tartar. That's an ingredient to make baking powder.

Water: will always be recycled. It takes less power to recycle water than to harvest ice from Mars, melt and filter to remove mud and salt.

SpaceNut · 2022-07-09 18:11:50

You first start out with a beer kit and grow through experience to wanting more in a microbrewery.
https://microbrewery.com/the-beer-brewi … explained/
It's sort of a passion that drives those that make product.

it becomes art to make a given taste from the same base barley, rye, sorghum, wheat, and oats.

It's a tight rope we walk when promoting a business as taste testers.

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-09 19:06:22

For SpaceNut re #108

Thanks for beginning the thought process ....

Mars Society is a non-profit corporation. As such, it is eligible to give "premiums" for membership, and a beer formulated for possible sale on Mars is more likely to appeal to potential Mars Society members than a tote bag.

Please develop your thinking further. I have no idea what you mean by "tight rope" ...

Does a non-profit walk a "tight rope" when it gives premium?

You might be right, but then again, I've never heard of such a thing, so I'm looking forward to your explanation of what you think the problem might be.

In any case, this would be a Mars Society Board of Directors decision. Let's examine the idea thoroughly before it makes its way to a Board meeting.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2022-07-10 04:14:45

In 1902 one beer company thought just throwing out the lees from beer was very wasteful. They thought there must be a way to convert this into nutritious food, which could then be sold for profit. The raw yeast is not digestible by humans. Yeast cell membranes must be burst open, the insides are digestible. They found adding a lot of salt resulted in autolysis, the yeast cells digest themselves with their own enzymes, and burst open. They're heated to complete the breakdown. Because yeast cell walls are thick and can't be digested, the insides of the yeast are separated with a sieve. The result is called Marmite. The beer company that did this research was Guinness. Today Marmite is not made with leftovers from beer, it's purpose made from ingredients just for Marmite. It's very salty, but that's because the salt is used for autolysis.

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-10 05:44:09

For all who might be intrigued by RobertDyck's report on Marmite .... here is something Google found that supports and adds a bit of detail...

Marmite is a brand of savoury food spread from the United Kingdom, based on yeast extract invented by German scientist Justus von Liebig. It is made from by-products of beer brewing and is currently produced by British company Unilever. Wikipedia
Manufacturer: Unilever
Inception: 1902

The word is also associated with a kind of pottery.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2022-07-10 06:14:08

Hmm. So much for company advertising. Advertising from Marmite itself claimed that the inventor was hired by the Guinness brewing company, and that the company that produced Marmite was a spin-off that separated from Guinness. This was part of a campaign with special Guinness flavoured Marmite in Guinness branded bottles. But Wikipedia claims in early years yeast was provided by Bass Brewery, not Guinness. Oh well.

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-10 06:23:41

Following up, with thanks to RobertDyck for ** even more** details!!! Since nothing should be wasted in an enterprise at Mars, it seems to me that production of Marmite (or whatever the appropriate name might be) would be worth including in planning.

The salt content might be a challenge for some folks, depending upon diet, but the product sounds as though it might be an acceptable salt substitute, in situations where a person might add a dash of salt.

This topic is about booze, but clearly products that become available as a result of production of booze are a good fit.

(th)

BeerMan · 2022-07-12 05:33:23

Marmite and Vegemite would be good for the yeast extract. The spent grain could be used to make some sort of cereal bars. I know some mid-sized breweries make dog treats with spent grain...we could rethink them for human consumption as another type of "Mars bar." LOL.

Beer is also very water intensive--it's roughly four gallons of water for a gallon of beer. I think with more advancements, we'll eventually get it down to 2:1.

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-12 06:09:55

For BeerMan re #114

Thanks for picking up on interest in Marmite, and adding detail about potential products.

Your introduction of the waste of water in production of beer is of great interest to members of this group, because on Mars, there can **be** no waste. Water is going to be energy intensive to secure, so every molecule must be recovered.

There is focus on this concern in multiple topics in the forum. However, ** your ** introduction of this issue presents a significant opportunity for the active members of this forum to help ** you ** to think through how to set up a brewery on Mars for zero waste.

Please help us to understand the problem, by describing how water is wasted (discarded) on Earth, during ordinary brewing.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-07-12 17:27:59

wow that's a lot of water being used

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-07-13 08:57:08

The Next Draft: Brewers still barred from farmers markets — push to change law continues
https://www.worcestermag.com/story/life … 805146001/
Count the state barring brewers from farmers' markets as one of those head-scratching legal conundrums

The Middle East might go islamist jihad on Alcohol yet they will smoke their brains out with that hookah shisha pipe. So what kind of stimulants or depressants or psychedelic would Mars allow at its events?

corrupt FIFA should be destroyed?

No alcohol will be served at stadiums during the jihadi Soccer ISIS supporting world cup?

thousands of mindless yobs will probably get arrested, dozens of women traveling to this event assaulted raped by corrupt police

Latest Psilocybin Microdosing Study, Powered by Quantified Citizen, Finds Improved Mental Health and Psychomotor Performance in Those Over 55 Years of Age
https://www.newswire.com/news/latest-ps … n-21764824

Despite federal warning, Alaska alcohol board says distilleries can keep selling kegged cocktails
https://www.newsminer.com/despite-feder … 95e75.html

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-07-13 08:59:37)

SpaceNut · 2022-07-13 19:21:05

call it a business lunch for the cocktails.

Hope the hookah smoke gives them what they deserve.. a quick exit from life.

Booze once concentrates makes as good antiseptic if needed.

Brewers need cans. California's broken recycling system is making them hard to find

Problem caused by recycling not being done...

BeerMan · 2022-07-22 07:10:03

Water is used in a number of ways when it comes to brewing beer. What all brewers want is the fermentable sugars that come from grains--yeast consumes the sugars for fermentation. When I give brewery tours, I tell people the easiest way to think of fermentation is that the yeast eats sugars, then burps out CO2 and poops out alcohol.

But back to water usage--there's the malting of the grain, which uses water to germinate the grain (for easier access to the sugars). The grain is then dried or roasted. We then add the malted grain to the mash tun where we use more water to produce wort, or sugary water. We keep adding water until we're unable to produce usable wort. We transfer the wort to a boil kettle and add hops. Sometimes more water is added at this stage too. After that, we'll move the hopped wort to a fermentation tank and add the yeast.

And, while we don't "waste" water by discarding it, brewing takes a lot of water to produce beer. Some breweries have been able to extract more wort with less water, but none has been able to figure out a 1:1 ratio.

I hope that helps.

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-22 07:48:44

For BeerMan re #119

Thanks for this helpful review of the processes that use water in beer making.

Water is also needed to grow the grains in the first place.

What the Mars community is going for is a 100% water recycling capability.

On Earth, water can be discarded because it is so abundant, and replacing water used in a process is nearly cost free.

You have hinted that brewers on Earth may be taking steps to try to reuse water.

The goal of 1-1 ratio seems (to me at least) to be difficult to justify on Earth, but it is mandatory on Mars.

Therefore, if a brewery were to take the Mars expectations as a guide, then it might be possible to come closer and closer to the goal.

***
The Admins of this forum are trying to sort out how to blend support by for-profit organizations with the non-profit nature of the Mars Society.

I can see that major non-profits are able to live comfortably with for-profit organizations using the "sponsor" model.

Please consider contacting Executive Director James Burk, to see if he is willing to entertain a proposal that would allow you to offer your products via "sponsor" ads on the Mars Society web site.

In addition, major non-profits often use "premiums" to entice citizens to become paying members.

I'd like to encourage all Admins to think about how we might be able to arrange our policies so that BeerMan can become an "official sponsor" of the Mars Society, and thus eligible to offer products for sale via the web site.

The simple fact is, the Mars Society is going to depend upon for-profit organizations to achieve it's worthy goals. The dependence upon governments is understandable in the past, but it is of diminishing value. The future lies in the realm of for-profit private enterprise.

(th)

Calliban · 2022-07-22 08:13:26

In the UK, wastewater from distillaries and breweries is often spread on pasture fields. A similar thing could work on Mars. Waste water could be used to directly water greenhouse crops, or maybe we put it into the algae tanks.

We have talked about using waste heat from nuclear reactors to heat greenhouses, by having a covered ditch full of warm water running the length of the greenhouse. Water would evaporate from the ditch, condense on the roof and then drip feed the crops. We could use contaminated water to do this, as the contaminants are left behind when the water evaporates. But waste water from breweries could be used to water crops directly, as it is not toxic. Some treated black water can be used in that way as well.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-07-22 08:19:29)

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-22 09:11:41

For Calliban re #121

Your contribution here inspires me to offer the logical follow on suggestion to BeerMan.

On Mars, it seems highly likely (to me at least) that citizens will specialize in complementary disciplines. That is what the My Hacienda topic is about.

A Brewery on Mars will depend upon several specializations, of which the consumer of your liquid byproduct would be one.

I have no way of knowing how interested you might be in helping to model on Earth the interactions that will be needed on Mars.

However, for the purposes of ** this ** post, I'll assume you ** are ** interested.

In that case, you will need collaborators to help with the modeling. Someone who wants to try growing grain that you need for your product in a greenhouse is the logical next step, if we follow Calliban's lead.

It's not likely that a greenhouse to grow grain on Earth would be cost competitive with the growers in open fields on Earth, so an educational/research institution would be the best bet for making the long term investments needed.

In some parts of the world, a greenhouse that can produce grain might well be cost effective, as conditions on the planet worsen.

We already have entire Nations that cannot grow their own grain in sufficient quantity to feed their populations, so a research institution might find incentive in the opportunity to show how an indoors grain growing facility might work.

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-07-26 14:24:21

Pushing any kind of Addiction is dangerous however restriction might give power to a Mafia which in the long term could be equally as dangerous for the public

So the Spice must flow?

and certain words could more offensive than Booze in your Mars colony?

Microdoses of psychedelic mushrooms may improve mood and mental health
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl … tal-health

Alcohol brand Jameson had to put a sticker over the word “smooth” on Thailand cans

https://bk.asia-city.com/nightlife/news … iland-cans

Best Buds: How the Brewing Industry is Tapping into the Cannabis Market

https://hightimes.com/sponsored/best-bu … is-market/

From a legal perspective, the only difference between the two plants is the content of delta-9 tetrahydrocannabinol, more commonly known as THC. If a cannabis plant is at or below 0.3% THC by weight, it is hemp. If it’s above 0.3% THC by weight, it is marijuana. Both are cannabis. Both plants are varieties of Cannabis sativa L. under the Linnaean classification system; therefore, despite common misconceptions, both hemp and marijuana are regarded by botanists as the same species. Over the course of a couple of generations in the wild, marijuana plants can become hemp and hemp plants can become marijuana.
What Koenigs came to discover was that hemp has a lot of interesting qualities and should be of great interest to brewers. When describing what hops are to their brewery tour guests, most brewers cite as a piece of trivia that hops and cannabis are botanical cousins. The vast amount of research that has gone into understanding hops in the last 100 years gives us the perfect lens through which to study cannabis.
Brewers are uniquely suited to understanding and promoting this newly legalized plant. Many of the processing technologies used for hop products are applicable to hemp; brewers have expertise in analyzing related biochemical constituents commonly found in hops and hemp; brewers have a shared expertise turning agricultural products into useful consumer products, and they understand and respect the power of intoxicants and can communicate the responsibility required to consume them in a safe and legal manner.

Girly Drinks: A World History of Women and Alcohol by Mallory O’Meara review

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/aac2 … 03b4c21a0d

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-07-26 14:32:29)

BeerMan · 2022-07-27 06:47:53

Mars_b4_Moon raises an interesting point about the power of the big brewing companies. Although Budweiser declared it would be the first brewery on Mars, Belgian AB Imbev owns Budweiser. AB Imbev is a massive global company--it also owns Beck's, Corona, Stella Artois, Modelo, Michelob, among others. It will be able to make the type of capital investment for brewing equipment needed for Mars' unique environment.

Another advantage AB Imbev enjoys is access to ingredients. With the climate crisis upon us, ingredients for beer will become scarcer. Only a large corporation like AB Imbev will likely be able to corner the market. Craft brewers, like me, will not be able to compete.

Sadly, this may lead to beer becoming a premium beverage. Prices for the consumer will soar. The future image of Joe Sixpack will look more like Jeff Bezos than Homer Simpson.

So, for now, please "be vocal and drink local."

NewMarsMember · 2022-07-27 07:10:46

For BeerMan ...

(With thanks to Mars_B4_Moon for #123)

My guess would be that individual producers of beverages (or very small "companies") will be the most likely source on Mars for many years. The large brewers might invest as a lark, ot to enjoy the tax write-off benefit of "scientific" research, but the market won't be present for quite some time.

Please comment upon the article that Mars_B4_Moon found, suggesting that hemp might be useful/interesting as a substitute for hops.

A craft brewer that made a brew with THC would seem to be very much in the modern flow of things.

(th)

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