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#601 2022-06-18 07:56:33

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 10,827

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

For SpaceNut re electrical charges ....

The rate charged has nothing to do with the amount used.

Separation of charges for delivery vs providing electricity complicates the picture but the fact remains, in New Hampshiare, there ** is ** a rate for electricity.

Google came up with a list of rates in nearby states.

The rate charged in your location ** should ** be visible somewhere on the printed bill.

It would be interesting (to me at least) to compare the rate you are seeing with nearby states.

(th)

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#602 2022-06-18 08:57:25

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,969

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

My electricity bill from Shell Energy just came in at £0.34/kWh - that is $0.41/kWh!  Enough to make one's eyes water.  This is what happens when a country closes its coal burning power plants and replaces them with bird blenders.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#603 2022-06-18 10:48:19

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 10,827

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

For Calliban re #602...

Thanks for providing the electricity rate in your area!

When the FluxBB display advances from one page (of 25) to the next, it is no longer possible to easily compare a post with one on the previous page.

Here (again) are the examples from the US:

Electricity (kWh) Prices by State
    STATE
    Sep 2021
    MOVEMENT

    Ohio
    12.64¢ / kWh
    DOWN

    Oklahoma
    10.72¢ / kWh
    UP

    Oregon
    11.02¢ / kWh
    UP

    Pennsylvania
    14.38¢ / kWh
    DOWN

    Electricity Rates (June 2022) - ElectricChoice.com
    www.electricchoice.com › electricity-prices-by-state
    About Featured Snippets

I am now able to understand your assessment in #602.

Update at 13:57 local time ... for Calliban ... could you please check your bill to see if the cost of delivery is included in the price you quoted?

The figures quoted for the States are (I believe) strictly for generation.  As SpaceNut pointed out, in the States, it is common to separate the cost of generation from the cost of delivery.

The reason for this is the introduction of competitive delivery options here.  The cost of delivery is a price agreed upon for the infrastructure that reaches the consumer. it includes hardware and services such as installing meters and other support activities.

Generation is now available from a variety of sources, including all-green sources if the customer is inclined that way.  For that reason, i suspect the prices quoted for the States may be low compared to the price you quoted, if the price you quoted includes deliver. Can you clarify the point?

(th)

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#604 2022-06-18 13:34:23

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,969

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

A tale of two power plants.

The South Koreans have recently completed two new 1400MWe nuclear power reactors at a total cost of $6 billion.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanul_N … ower_Plant

Contrast this to Hinkley Point C, where two 1600MWe power reactors are now projected to cost £26 billion ($30bn).
https://world-nuclear-news.org/Articles … -and-costs

On a per kWe basis, The South Korean plant will produce some of the cheapest electricity in the world.  Hinkley C, some of the most expensive.

Nuclear power is the most efficient energy source, in terms of power density and embedded materials needed per MWh.  When done properly, it is also the cheapest form of energy.  Western countries have somehow managed run it into the ground.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#605 2022-06-18 15:43:21

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 5,860

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

The underlying issue with electrification is that it's insanely expensive, so any attempt to electrify everything will inevitably drastically increase the cost of electricity.  No matter how cheaply a photovoltaic panel or wind turbine can be made using fossil fuels, its embodied energy cost relative to total output is so low that improper siting can result in the device becoming a net energy sink- in other words, it took more energy to create the device than it produced.

Total US electric generating capacity was about 1.15TW at the end of 2021.

Total China electric generating capacity was about 2.38TW at the end of 2021.

To synthesize storable fuels from raw materials, the power required to source the Hydrogen and Carbon alone is 25TW.  That's not for the rest of the transformation process, but source materials equates to scaling-up our total generating capacity by a factor of 25.  All of that generating capacity has to be created for scratch.  That said, I don't see how we maintain our agricultural and manufacturing infrastructure without synthesizing our own fuels.

There is not enough hydroelectric generating capacity to do storable fuel synthesis.  Nuclear power could be utilized, but fuel reprocessing would have to be near 100% to maintain that system for any significant length of time.  That's why it has to be solar thermal.  You end up with very expensive alternatives that are both costly to create and maintain, but the alternatives are worse.  Silicon-based electronics production and composites production is far worse for both the environment and total energy return than simple metals transforming solar photons into electricity or process heat, when scaled up to the degree required.  Even if that wasn't a consideration, the quantities of Copper, Aluminum, and Lithium are woefully insufficient to meet US, never mind global demand.

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#606 2022-06-20 19:00:31

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,989

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

Dollar late California's gas prices are currently the highest in the U.S

With Biden weighs a gas tax holiday. How much would consumers really save?

Democratic President Joe Biden on Monday said he was contemplating temporarily suspending the federal gas tax, a move that could save drivers 18.4 cents per gallon and 24.4 cents for diesel but states have to also look at the same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxe … ted_States

that is only so of the fuel taxes
https://igentax.com/gas-tax-state/

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#607 2022-06-21 06:35:10

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,969

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

SpaceNut wrote:

Dollar late California's gas prices are currently the highest in the U.S

With Biden weighs a gas tax holiday. How much would consumers really save?

Democratic President Joe Biden on Monday said he was contemplating temporarily suspending the federal gas tax, a move that could save drivers 18.4 cents per gallon and 24.4 cents for diesel but states have to also look at the same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxe … ted_States

that is only so of the fuel taxes
https://igentax.com/gas-tax-state/

Presumably, that tax would be suspended until 10 minutes after the polls for the mid-terms close? :-)  Not so much a solution, as a bribe.

I don't think the US can afford to lower gas taxes with a national debt of $30tn.  And high fuel prices are here to stay because they are rooted in geology.  There is no point trying to shield people from that.  Why not keep the taxes what they are and let consumers adapt by buying more efficient vehicles?  When oil does hit $170/barrel, they will be better prepared.  If Biden really wants to reduce fuel prices, why not renew drilling permits on federal land?

Ultimately, gas taxes can be used to incentivise synthetic fuel production that will ease the crisis.  But there will be no return to the really cheap fuel that was available until about 2007.  Reducing gas tax will result in vehicle purchase decisions that will be unsustainable if taxes rise again or oil prices head higher.  There just isn't any future scenario where liquid fuels are going to be as abundant as they were before peak oil.  Better to be honest with people and let them adapt by buying cars with decent mpg and let the car manufacturers retool for that.  There is nothing worse at this point than providing an effective subsidy for fuel guzzling SUVs, driven by suburbanites that don't really need them.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-06-21 06:44:45)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#608 2022-06-21 16:43:20

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 5,860

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

Calliban,

If the Democrats instituted a national tax holiday on gasoline, then that would be the most tax relief they've actually provided to anyone within my lifetime.  At all other times, their sophomoric "wealth redistribution" schemes have simply cost people such as myself more money, which is why taxes increase every year.  I can make the exact same claim about the Republican Party, but at least they don't lie about what they're actually doing the way the Democrats do.  There are many times when I wish our Republican's anti-social military programs and our Democrats anti-social / anti-welfare programs could be summarily cancelled out of existence by the people giving both of them the single digit salute.

Iraq War II and Afghanistan added about 1/3rd to our national debt.
Republican politicians can keep that.

The Unaffordable Care Act tripled our health care costs from the very moment their crapola went into effect.
Democrat politicians can keep that.

I could go on and on, but that's enough whining for now.  Nothing ever really changes, and that's a fact.  Long story short, stupid people with stupid ideas leads to stupid results.  There's never a shortage of stupid ideas or stupid people, either.

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#609 2022-06-21 19:59:46

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,989

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

Temporary drop of tax on fuels while its good in the short its bad for when we need the money as the rate will go up to make up for the short fall.

Saw an article on Biodiesel plants that are ready to come on line will not produce enough to make cost go down.

Global Biodiesel Markets Report 2022-2026 - Depleting Fossil Fuel Resources and Shift Towards Renewable Energy Presents Opportunities

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#610 2022-06-21 20:06:27

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 10,827

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

Both Calliban and kbd512 have offered plans/concepts for replacing ground sourced fossil fuel.

Calliban's plan (of course) uses nuclear fission as the energy source.

kbd512's plan (as I understand it) would use solar power and reliable solar trough energy collection systems.

In both cases massive investment would be needed, but once that investment is made, maintenance costs should be modest.

Both plans envision totally replacing ground sourced hydrocarbon fuels with air/water sourced fuels.

(th)

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#611 2022-06-21 20:28:39

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,989

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

I think a floating solar powered fuel factory as a means to make the long chain that we desire from the ocean is the best option.
Giant Floating Solar Farms Could Extract CO2 From Seawater, Producing Methanol Fuel

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#612 2022-06-27 17:55:09

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 3,360

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

Gas prices could reach ‘apocalyptic’ levels during hurricane season, oil expert warns

https://nypost.com/2022/06/24/gas-price … il-expert/

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#613 2022-06-27 18:37:26

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,989

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

Another way to get gas costs down is work closer to where you live. Son just did this and cut the ride to only 7 miles from home. Bonus is hours are going to be more consistent day to day and at a higher level of pay...
Not everyone can have this solution but where you can take it....

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#614 2022-06-29 14:03:22

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 3,360

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

U.S. emergency oil reserve draws by 6.9 mln barrels to lowest since 1986
https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodi … 022-06-27/
America is depleting its strategic petroleum reserve faster than it looks
https://dentonrc.com/opinion/america-is … f849b.html

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#615 2022-06-29 15:20:36

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 5,860

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

Mars_B4_Moon,

Democrat media is now reporting that their donors have been funding Trump-endorsed candidates during the primaries.  I guess they must think that will cause more of their voters to vote for Democrat candidates, but I don't think they've been paying any attention to the last few elections where Democrats in deep blue areas are getting voted out of office.  The only alternative explanation, which I hope is the correct one, is that even they realize that the Democrat Party doesn't have any candidates who are competent to manage a lemonade stand.

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#616 2022-06-29 22:26:53

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,989

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

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#617 2022-06-30 08:47:11

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 5,860

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

SpaceNut,

Yes, stopping those ignorant serfs from using the energy that belongs to the rich a-holes who fly around the world on their own private jets to tell us how stupid we all are for driving to work in affordable cars, is far preferable to having Americans going to work.

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#618 2022-06-30 09:28:00

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 3,360

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

S&P stocks has worst first half of a year since 1970!

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/29/stock-m … -news.html

CSV follows trend to review nuclear stance

https://delano.lu/article/csv-follows-t … -review-nu

Luxembourg’s Christian democrat opposition party, the CSV, has exited an anti-nuclear committee

'They're paying for this war' Schwarzenegger in furious Europe slapdown over Russia payout

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/16 … Ukraine-VN

I'm not a fan of Arnie politics but I agree Europe's dumb policy must change.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-06-30 09:29:32)

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#619 2022-06-30 19:12:23

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,989

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

What, your feet broken or how about thumbing, taking a taxi, getting to a community bus run, getting with a coworker to cut the cost to go to work or how about moving or getting temporary housing near by the work.

I have done all of these in the last 50 years when my cars were broken or could not pass inspections traveling 30 ish mile each way daily for months.

Apparently, the announcement was only worth a 2 cent drop in fuel cost today at the pump.

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#620 2022-06-30 19:47:28

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 5,860

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

SpaceNut,

No my feet aren't broken, but you're not walking 25+ miles, one way, to work.  I could try riding a bicycle on the highway if I was suicidal, but I'm not.

Thumbing it - A good way to get raped, robbed, and/or murdered (yes, sometimes people do it, but not as an everyday practice).

Taking a taxi - Spending way more money than a car and gasoline?

Community bus - These would have to be available to begin with.

Coworker - We have done this in the past, even without sky-high gas prices, but it's not presently feasible to do.

Moving - Get real.

I have moved within the city to keep our children within a given school district, but not for individual jobs that may not be there six months later.  My wife and I have driven with coworkers and take no issue with doing this whenever it's feasible.

What you're describing is not feasible for everybody in the country to do, merely because the moron you voted for made gasoline more expensive through inexcusably stupid and ideologically-motivated energy policies.

You voted for a dementia patient who can't manage his way out of a wet paper bag, so the rest of us are supposed to hitchhike or move as a result.

How about we just vote out the clown you voted for?

That's what will happen.

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#621 2022-07-01 00:22:18

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,969

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

The latest blog post from natural resource investors Goehring & Rozencwajg
https://blog.gorozen.com/blog/running-o … l-capacity

In summary: The world is running out of spare pumping capacity and oil markets are becoming increasingly tight.  This is leading to both high prices and increasingly more volatile prices.  The tight market is a direct result of under-investment in the industry due to the popular myth that renewables would soon lead to FF obsolescence.

The most important conclusion from this article concerns US tight oil (shale).  Tight oil is concentrated in three large producing basins in the US: The Baken, Eagle Ford and the Permian.  Only Permian production is still growing.  The improved cost effectiveness of shale appears to be due to greater success in identifying sweet spots within fields.  Unfortunately, the high productivity sweet spots are now heavily depleted.  This suggests that further growth in the shale patch is going to be constrained and prices will be higher in the future.

This may pour cold water on the predictions of Peter Zeihan for example, who posits that the US will grow steadily less interested in the Persian Gulf, due to the abundance and low cost of US tight oil.  If that production turns out to be less sustainable than he assumed it will be, then his whole premiss that the US would be disinterested in the outside world will need a rethink.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-07-01 00:28:19)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#622 2022-07-01 10:21:57

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,676

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

I think that those sweet spots were still profitable at $50.00 a year ago.  So, drilling less sweet spots might be profitable at $70, which might be considered a bargain now.

The only part of what you have said I would have concern for is if you query for "Break Even Price for Shale Oil", you can get lots of opinions.  I used to do that a couple of years ago, and most articles were doom and gloom.  And yet apparently companies choose to drill for Shale oil at a loss?  So, I only know what I read.  I have no special knowledge.

I think one reason why American fuel prices are high is we apparently sell a lot of finished products.  So that would have a bearing on self-sufficiency.  Companies in the USA might even be able to turn a buck by importing oil and exporting finished products.

We also have the waste natural gas, which also is used to produce export products.

Then you have to consider that the current party in power considers people who burn fossil fuels as "Sinners", so they do not want us to have low prices.

My understanding is that this administration messed around in the financial area to interfering with shale oil producers.
Also, it has been using executive powers to interfere with Shale Oil.

Most people live on or near the coasts.  If they are importers or exporters by trade, they may make more money by stifling the Oil Shale, getting the prices up and then importing products.  Plus, there are regional jealousies.  The my team your team mentality in politics and perceptions of identity.  And Biden is really old school, probably wants a time machine so we can go back to the 70's.

But I am not 100% of trust in the predictions of Mr. Zeihan.  They are pretty good, but I don't think any human can get,
on a guess more then 50% correct in predictions.  There are too many factors that can creep in and change the flow of things.

I am rather not sure about the projections of the fall of China and Russia.  I am willing to believe that they will have major turmoil, but their situation is much different than that of the so called, (By me), 2 wests.

Notions of west, are, probably not the same.

The ancient notion of East and West was approximately about just north of the Mediterranean Sea, and then going east, it would be a climate approximately similar.   And many would consider ancient Greece or Rome to be where the true West was/is.

I don't feel that way.

From my perception, West, (Best smile), was set up by people who did not like the "West" that was in Europe.  The Brits, and Canadians have their own concretes.  That's OK, we can all be above average.

I will make this quick.  The people called Slavs, I believe were called that because they were considered good slave material.  So, as development went north, club Med kept its conceits, they do still think of themselves as cultured and probably think they are the mostest above average.  Which means that they don't especially regard the North Sea upstarts with high scores.  Thats fine, we can all be the best.

But we have to be careful that we don't underestimate the emerging capabilities of the Slavic peoples.

The formula for success was expanding populations with good demographics.  But in the apparent emergence of robots, and the dangers of resource exhaustions, (Food?), could that previous method to success be violated?

So far the Russians don't have that going for themselves as far as I can see, but as I have said, I am not sure that you can draw a strait line prediction from the works of Peter Zeihan.  You may though get better approximations.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-07-01 10:48:44)


Done.

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#623 2022-07-01 10:39:20

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,989

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

Back in my day none of those things were happening and I still kept my school choice.
Currently if I wanted to, I could walk the 4 plus to a bus stop and use it most of the way to work on time.
So which clowns are better to vote for as they both got it wrong?

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#624 2022-07-01 10:49:36

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,676

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

Well as someone told me, you get to vote for prostitute #1, #2, #3..........

They will let us know what we need to think.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-01 10:50:31)


Done.

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#625 2022-07-01 12:46:10

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 5,860

Re: Current Gasoline/Petrol Price$

If we synthesize our own gasoline from CO2 and sea water, then we no longer need to care if oil drilling prices go up, down, or sideways.  This will become a "moo point"- much like the opinion of a cow, it just doesn't matter.

Hydrocarbon synthesis - no shortage of input thermal energy from the Sun, CO2, or sea water, nor will there ever be

Iron Nitride permanent magnets - developed here in America, stronger than rare Earth magnets and higher temperature range than NdFeB, made from Iron and Nitrogen only, as the name suggests, don't need to care much about rare Earth elements since magnets are the greatest single use

Re-onshoring of Iron / steel production - no need to rely on China for metals, and Aluminum already comes from Australia

Re-onshoring of pharmaceuticals and medical supplies - no need to rely on China for drugs and we have plentiful natural gas

We already make our own food, and we have no shortage of water if we do desalination in a big way.  Series hybrid combustion engines like Nissan "e-POWER" - no need for gigantic Lithium-ion batteries that we could never make enough of and as I've shown, it's already as energy efficient as a Tesla that costs 3X as much because pure EV requires 3X as much input energy to create cars with equivalent range to that of a combustion engine.  There will never ever be any energy pay-back with a pure EV, especially if 75%+ of our grid energy comes from burning something.  It's a neat accounting trick, but it's also selling a gigantic L-I-E to people who can't count or think beyond what they can see in front of their faces.  The faster we let go of absurdities, the faster we can reduce our energy consumption and emissions at the same time.

Sodium-ion batteries - again, no need for foreign-sourced batteries or materials, it's far more plentiful than Lithium, lasts inordinately longer (50,000 cycles before 80% capacity vs 22,500 cycles tops), and recharges very quickly without destroying the cells to do so (energy density is only about 65% that of Lithium-ion, but improving and 160Wh/kg vs 250Wh/kg)

Solar thermal, not photovoltaics and wind turbines - sunlight is much more plentiful than wind, no horrendous non-recyclable materials consumption or clear-cutting to install short-lived electronic garbage, lasts as long as nuclear, the poorest states in the midwest will see an economic boom, bringing water to the desert so those nitwits in Arizona can grow grass in 115F heat

Nuclear - we have a stockpile of fuel that should last another thousand years or so, and if anybody ever decides to use it, it's all sitting there in Kentucky or underground storage in the deserts of the midwest

Combustion Engines - these machines still breathe life into every economy, can't be entirely done away with using current technology, so be practial and quit trying to force round pegs into square holes

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