Could We Colonize Ganymede?

JoshNH4H · 2014-05-09 21:46:41

It's my understanding that, given that there are both positively and negatively charged particles contained within the Jovian magnetic field, the radiation will come from both directions

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-05-10 03:34:07

Electrons are negatively charged particles. I would think protons are the main concern. ions are positively charged because they are missing some electrons from their outer shells. I don't know how an atom can have more electrons than it can hold onto. The ratio between the mass of a proton and that of an electron is about 1836. Its the protons that carry more energy since they have more mass.

JoshNH4H · 2014-05-10 05:51:58

That's incorrect, actually. Because they are in the form of a plasma they do not behave the same and in any case their behavior is dependent more on their charge than their mass.

Quaoar · 2014-05-10 07:39:46

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

Depends on whether you walk in the radiation shadows or not. Radiation has to come a particular direction, a Ganymede day is seven times as long as an Earth day, so that means for 3.5 days you would be protected from radiation from the bulk of Ganymede.

Jovian satellites are in syncronous rotation so the east trailing emipshere will ever take more radiation than the west leading emisphere, because radiation belts rotate faster than moons. But currents in radiation belts are very very complex ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_plasma_torus#Role_of_Io ) and Ganymede has its own magnetosphere with open line in the polar region and closed line on the equator where they generate another radiation belt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganymedian … netosphere

So it may be very difficoult to predict if there are safe even and where they are.

Astrobiologist are very interest in looking for safe evens on Europa, because they hope to find intact biological material coming from subglacial ocean: this work is on the topic http://www.astrobio.net/exclusive/3010/ … -radiation

Last edited by Quaoar (2014-05-10 07:42:12)

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-05-11 05:17:25

Quaoar wrote:

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Depends on whether you walk in the radiation shadows or not. Radiation has to come a particular direction, a Ganymede day is seven times as long as an Earth day, so that means for 3.5 days you would be protected from radiation from the bulk of Ganymede.
Jovian satellites are in syncronous rotation so the east trailing emipshere will ever take more radiation than the west leading emisphere, because radiation belts rotate faster than moons. But currents in radiation belts are very very complex ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_plasma_torus#Role_of_Io ) and Ganymede has its own magnetosphere with open line in the polar region and closed line on the equator where they generate another radiation belt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganymedian … netosphere
So it may be very difficoult to predict if there are safe even and where they are.
Astrobiologist are very interest in looking for safe evens on Europa, because they hope to find intact biological material coming from subglacial ocean: this work is on the topic http://www.astrobio.net/exclusive/3010/ … -radiation

Probably the radiation flows in one direction or the other. So from whatever direction the radiation flows, you always land on the opposite hemisphere to put the Moon between yourself and the direction the radiation is coming in.

GW Johnson · 2014-05-11 09:02:01

I think Quaoar's point was that the radiation does not reliably and predictably flow in one direction only at Ganymede. The risk appears to be (1) not fundamentally well-understood yet, and (2) variable enough not to be predictable in any reliable sense. Based on postings above, I think JoshNH4H would agree with that assessment.

Thus, at this time, it would seem wiser to pick a lower-risk site like Callisto for the first manned visits in Jovian space, while using probes and remote-observations while there to better understand the riskier sites like Ganymede. Although, technologically, we are not ready to fly that far manned yet.

By the time we are technologically ready to handle manned travel to Jupiter, we may also know a lot more about about protecting ourselves from the radiation. If that proves true, what looks very risky today would look far less risky by the time the mission is deemed feasible.

It is very important to understand something about what it is that you don't know, when you attempt something challenging, like manned travel to Jupiter. It's what you don't know that is most likely to kill you. The toughest part is recognizing that there is missing knowledge, so you can go after as much of it as you can, while getting ready to fly the mission.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2014-05-11 09:03:52)

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-05-11 13:14:30

I can think of one export from all three Galilean satellites Europa, Ganymede, and Callisto. Hydrogen. Venus needs hydrogen to make its oceans and reduce its carbon-dioxide atmosphere. Now what happens if we export a lot of hydrogen by splitting water molecules, but leave the oxygen behind? What if we end up with a 1 bar atmosphere of pure oxygen on each of those satellites? We'd get some radiation protection now wouldn't we. A 1 bar oxygen atmosphere around Europa would surely stop the worst of Jupiter's radiation, and probably end up with a glowing sky due to Auroras. We couldn't breath those atmospheres as they'd freeze our lungs, but we could heat up the oxygen and breath it behind masks in insulated thermal suits, such atmospheres would last a long time at prevailing temperatures around Jupiter. Not cold enough to liquefy oxygen, but too cold to breath, but it would stop radiation from those radiation belts, that's for sure. The hydrogen would then be combined with the oxygen in Venus' atmosphere to make water, letting the free carbon settle to the ground as a solid.

JoshNH4H · 2014-05-11 21:05:17

GW-

I do agree with your assessment.

Moving radiation fields makes great fodder for science fiction, though.

-Josh

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-05-12 05:17:12

Yep, the crew gets thrown out of their seats during those space storms and some of them even develop God like powers and need to be killed before they grow too powerful. Some space storms have even caused transporter malfunctions and caused people to beam into parallel universes. We got to watch out for those space storms!

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-05-12 05:17:47)

GW Johnson · 2014-05-12 07:48:50

The original was "Mirror, Mirror". Spock-with-a-beard.

GW

RobertDyck · 2014-05-12 08:44:44

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

Yep, the crew gets thrown out of their seats during those space storms and some of them even develop God like powers and need to be killed before they grow too powerful.

Star Trek The-Original-Series second pilot: "Where No Man Has Gone Before"

Ps. I only have two Star Trek costumes in my closet. I hired a seamstress to make the first one after the first movie: Star Trek The Motion Picture. The reason was the local Star Trek fan club made an agreement with the local movie promoter. All members of the Star Trek club got into every science fiction and fantasy movie premier, the invitation only premier that normally you have to win a ticket from a radio station or something like that. But we got in free, every movie. Did even have to line up, they opened a separate door and let is walk past the line. The condition was we had to show up in costume. So my costume paid for it self several times over.

But that was in 1980/81. The first movie was Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, in 1982. I have gained a little weight since. Starting in 2002, I have given a Mars Society presentation every year at the local Science Fiction/Fantasy convention. The Star Trek club still existed, and hosted a convention hospitality suite. They claimed I looked like "Q" from Star Trek. I tried to argue that's the bad guy, but eventually went with it. I ordered a Star Trek shirt over the internet. Just a shirt, worn over a black T-shirt and black slacks. The effect looks just like a uniform from Star Trek: The Next Generation. I got one with captain's pips, the same costume that "Q" wore. So I fit in. It's fun. They do hospitality suites a bit different than any other convention: local fan clubs host a suite they dress up in the theme of their club. The convention has a whole floor of 2 rooms suites. They have presentations, a dance, dinner, start with an ice cream social, art show, and actual authors; but the hospitality suite floor is a weekend-long drinking party for nerds.

The character "Leonard Hofstadter" from "Big Bang Theory" had two Star Trek costumes in his closet. Trekkie and proud of it! "Live Long and Prosper"

RobertDyck · 2014-05-12 08:52:29

I notice the only discussion are about Ganymede/Callisto, or terraforming Venus. Does that mean we worked out how to go to Mars? There's nothing more to work on?

GW Johnson · 2014-05-12 12:31:52

Oops, forgot about "Where No Man Has Gone Before". Age begets forgetfulness.

I was thinking about the mirror universe episodes. There were two, the one I mentioned, and the other one where Capt Kirk gets lost for a while, and the Defiant gets sent to the mirror universe with a dead crew. Same plot idea showed up in Deep Space Nine, and Enterprise. Not so sure about Next Generation. Maybe. Not Voyager, though; different plot scenario.

As to "figured-out-to-go-to-Mars", some of us think so. The arguments are really over how to ensure getting the crew back safe at high probability. That and cost. Actually, we could/would have sent men to Mars in the 1980's, had the space program not been cut in '72.

I rather doubt they would have made it home alive, knowing what we know now about microgravity diseases and radiation exposures. It was a 17 km/s free return, at something like 15 gees. Not something you can survive after 2.5 years' accumulated microgravity disease.

GW

Quaoar · 2014-05-12 13:13:19

GW Johnson wrote:

As to "figured-out-to-go-to-Mars", some of us think so. The arguments are really over how to ensure getting the crew back safe at high probability. That and cost. Actually, we could/would have sent men to Mars in the 1980's, had the space program not been cut in '72.
I rather doubt they would have made it home alive, knowing what we know now about microgravity diseases and radiation exposures. It was a 17 km/s free return, at something like 15 gees. Not something you can survive after 2.5 years' accumulated microgravity disease.
GW

I think artificial gravity is a MUST, untill we will have GM deep space compliant astronauts, microgravity and (possible) radiation reasistant. I'm surprised there are still people who design Mars manned mission without some kind of AG.

Last edited by Quaoar (2014-05-13 02:04:12)

JoshNH4H · 2014-05-12 14:37:35

RobertDyck wrote:

I notice the only discussion are about Ganymede/Callisto, or terraforming Venus. Does that mean we worked out how to go to Mars? There's nothing more to work on?

One of the greatest strengths of Newmars is that we talk about a wide variety of topics from a large variety of perspectives. If you want to talk about Mars, feel free to do so in the appropriate thread. We certainly do talk about Mars more than anything else, but there's no reason to do so exclusively.

Even Zubrin doesn't think that we should remain a two-planet species.

RobertDyck · 2014-05-12 15:33:37

I've posted my ideas to terraform Ganymede. I would like to terraform: Mars, Venus, Ganymede, Callisto. Settle but leave airless: Luna(Earth's Moon), Mercury, and Io. Don't have a recommendation about Europa; we should do some science to deterimine if life exists there before messing with it. Don't want the giant monoliths getting angry. ;-)

Not much discussion about Mars lately.

Terraformer · 2014-05-12 17:08:26

Why leave Io airless?

JoshNH4H · 2014-05-12 22:56:53

I think there's a very good argument to be made that unless the costs are exceedingly low terraforming will not result in a good return on investment.

Edit: And certainly Mars is by no means "solved", but there's a limit to how much we can do here. I'm going to do some work on this over the summer, with the possible intent to publish a book. Would you be interested in taking a look, once I've got some stuff going?

RobertDyck · 2014-05-13 12:59:32

Terraformer wrote:

Why leave Io airless?

Sulphur volcanoes. Forget trying to control them. Instead use them for geothermal power, and use the sulphur and ice for plastics. Great site for industry. All that volcanism is caused by tidal forces from proximity to Jupiter. You can't move the moon farther from Jupiter, so just go with it.

RobertDyck · 2014-05-13 13:04:57

JoshNH4H wrote:

Edit: And certainly Mars is by no means "solved", but there's a limit to how much we can do here. I'm going to do some work on this over the summer, with the possible intent to publish a book. Would you be interested in taking a look, once I've got some stuff going?

Great idea. I've long thought of writing a book. Some local Mars Society members said I should. But writing isn't my forte. The theme I was thinking of was "Survivalist's guide to Mars." With ideas how a survivalist could use some of the techology today on Earth to live off the land.

JoshNH4H · 2014-05-13 13:38:19

I'm thinking of going at it from a more macro scale, looking at Mars' place in the interplanetary economy. I was also thinking I might want to do a more and less technical version, where the technical version was mostly numbers and the less technical one had more of a narrative as well as maybe some short fiction

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-05-13 13:59:50

RobertDyck wrote:

Terraformer wrote:
Why leave Io airless?
Sulphur volcanoes. Forget trying to control them. Instead use them for geothermal power, and use the sulphur and ice for plastics. Great site for industry. All that volcanism is caused by tidal forces from proximity to Jupiter. You can't move the moon farther from Jupiter, so just go with it.

Actually an atmosphere would help carry away heat from those erupting volcanoes, through convection and make it easier to generate energy from them. And a semi-terraformed Io would have a solid surface to stand on unlike those three other ice moons.

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-05-13 14:01:14

JoshNH4H wrote:

I'm thinking of going at it from a more macro scale, looking at Mars' place in the interplanetary economy. I was also thinking I might want to do a more and less technical version, where the technical version was mostly numbers and the less technical one had more of a narrative as well as maybe some short fiction

Ever hear of a book called the Martian, that is a book that is all about survival. Have you read it?

JoshNH4H · 2014-05-13 16:13:46

I haven't, but I think robertdyck and I are talking about survivalism more in the economic sense, e.g. the technologies and systems that will make it possible to establish permanent, self-sustaining colonies on Mars.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-05-03 15:27:24

Ganymede Casts a Massive Shadow Across Jupiter in Spectacular New Image From NASA’s Juno Spacecraft
https://scitechdaily.com/ganymede-casts … pacecraft/

Jupiter Icy Moons Orbiter would have studied Ganymede in detail. However, the Vision for Space Exploration by Bush Jnr seen Budget cuts, the JIMO mission was canceled in 2005
http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050208/ … 207-4.html
Another older proposal was called The Grandeur of Ganymede
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/outerp … f/4065.pdf

A Nasa report recommends that humans should target Europa - one of Jupiter's moons - as a possible destination for a crewed mission, within the next 80 years They say, the moons Titan and Enceladus - that orbit Saturn - and Europa and Callisto - that orbit Jupiter - should be the aim for space exploration within the next 80 years.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/58916959

The Future of Mars colony
https://medium.com/predict/the-future-o … 19e9fa3774

Mars Camp in a Desert
https://www.sciencetimes.com/articles/3 … desert.htm

ESA astronaut Andreas Mogensen and NASA’s Kate Rubins will explore the unique geology of Nusfjord, in Lofoten, from 16 to 22 July 2022.
https://blogs.esa.int/caves/2022/03/21/ … -the-moon/
The new location for ESA’s Pangaea course is the fourth in a series of field training sessions for Andreas and Kate. The two astronauts are already accomplished geology students, and will learn to identify new lunar rock types, interpret their origin and understand the history behind them.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-05-03 15:32:03)

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Re: Could We Colonize Ganymede?

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