Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

Void · 2019-04-17 12:06:09

You members seem stunned it seems. So I will post this.
https://phys.org/news/2019-04-closer-me … lanet.html
Quote:

It has long been known that Mercury and the Earth have metallic cores. Like Earth, Mercury's outer core is composed of liquid metal, but there have only been hints that Mercury's innermost core is solid. Now, in a new study, scientists from NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland have found evidence that Mercury's inner core is indeed solid and that it is very nearly the same size as Earth's inner core.

So the above is science. Also, I do believe that the Moon still has a liquid part of it's core.
https://wryheat.wordpress.com/2011/01/1 … says-nasa/
Indeed!

So, an object smaller than Mars, the Moon, and an object ~~~the size of Mars, Mercury, each still have liquid cores.

Facts above, and then speculation about Mars follows. Not entirely of Science.

So, then what are the odds that Mars has a liquid core? Well we don't know, but speculation based on claims for liquid cores for Mercury and the Moon suggest that it will, or maybe will have a liquid core.

The three objects can be associated by relative size, as they all are considerably smaller than Earth.
But they each have alternate conditions and qualities, so we cannot be certain of a liquid core for Mars, but to me it is a good bet. I do wonder why they have not been able to do an analysis for Mars from orbit as they did for Mercury?

Anyway, my own opinion is that the three do not have appreciable tectonic activity, because their crusts are too buoyant relative to their lower parts. Earth just happens to be able to cool its crust enough relative to its lower parts that it becomes a sinker and not a floater. That in part could explain the difference, there may be other factors.

Of course some of the lack of tectonic activity on the three can be ascribed to a lesser energy in the cores. I will not dispute that possibility as a real contribution to the realties.

Porosity of the Martian crust relative to that of the Earth, may also contribute to buoyancy which inhibits tectonic activity. It seems that the planet does exhibit a greater porosity in it's crust.
http://www.sci-news.com/space/martian-c … 05227.html

In retrospect, it is not surprising to me that gassy lava emerged to the surface might have more voids in it, and that sandstone creation on Mars would involve a lesser amount of compaction. It seems reasonable to me.

Of course for Mercury and the Moon we do not expect Sandstone, but the Lava voids seem like they would be true, provided that the lava was gassy. Perhaps not as true of Mercury and the Moon. Probably likely for Mars I think.

So in this piece, Mercury and the Moon are of interest, but focusing on Mars, I wonder what is the pressurization inside of the Voids of the porous crust? I suppose potentially anywhere from a maximum of ??? to current ~5.5 mb average. This then says thermos bottle to me. That and also the likelihood that crustal rocks on Mars may be thicker and composed on average of lighter materials, and no significant tectonic convection observed, Thermos insulation perhaps.

That bodes well for the hope that Mars retains a partial liquid core. No proof or guarantee on that but hopes.

So, then hopes for geothermal power for several bodies, Mercury, Earth, Luna, Mars, Ceres, ???, Callisto. I suppose somehow Venus as well, but we are very far from that I suspect.

I like this for geothermal potential. I am getting mad, as my saves go wrong. It seems as though someone is trying to hack while I am trying to post. Paranoia, I suppose.

This:
https://www.teslarati.com/hypersciences … evolution/

Figure it out then.

Ok, this is what they claim. I think geothermal would be great on quite a few objects that humans may inhabit. Your choice how much to buy of this.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Hy … ORM=VRDGAR

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-04-17 13:08:24)

SpaceNut · 2019-04-18 18:46:50

I guess the question is what do you want to do with this heat energy?

Mercury is a strange hot and cold planet that circles ever so close to the sun. The radiation is a killer as well as the surface temperatures for the sun side of the planet; so geothermal would not be needed.

Mercury speeds around the sun every 88 Earth days, traveling through space at nearly 112,000 mph (180,000 km/h), faster than any other planet. Its oval-shaped orbit is highly elliptical, taking Mercury as close as 29 million miles (47 million km) and as far as 43 million miles (70 million km) from the sun. Oddly, due to Mercury's highly elliptical orbit and the 59 Earth-days or so it takes to rotate on its axis, when on the scorching surface of the planet, the sun appears to rise briefly, set, and rise again before it travels westward across the sky. At sunset, the sun appears to set, rise again briefly, and then set again.

Planet Mercury: Facts About the Planet Closest to the Sun

Mercury's surface temperature can reach a scorching 840 degrees Fahrenheit (450 degrees Celsius). However, since this world doesn't have much of a real atmosphere to entrap any heat, at night temperatures can plummet to minus 275 F (minus 170 C),

By contrast, the surface of hazy Venus sits at a sweltering 880 degrees Fahrenheit year-round, making it the hottest planet in our solar system.

www.climate-change-theory.com/Planetary_Core_and_Surface_Temperatures.pdf
Planetary Core and Surface Temperatures

So if you want to create power one might create a steam driven system as you have all the heat you want and a cold sink to cool the steam back down which is all natural. If you are getting to much heat you by pass some of that energy to the cool sink or provide shade to the section that is too hot.

This design works for the moon as well.

Its unknown as to the heat quantity of the core for mars but maybe in time we will know.

For venus its so hot that we for now can not get to use its beautiful planet.

SpaceNut · 2020-03-02 18:00:56

Here is another question in what diameter must a rock be before we start to see internal heat being generated by compression of mass?
Is there a minimum size or materials that lend to being warmer?
Is this just the level at which natural uranium reactors happen at depth?

tahanson43206 · 2021-10-14 12:06:06

This topic was created in 2019, and it has been sitting quietly in the back of the scene for a while.

A recent discussion with Calliban in another topic reminded me that the Earth contains an active nuclear fission reactor (of some considerable size) and we humans are huddling in cold on the surface. If Calliban's projections of a dark and dismal future are correct, more and more humans will be huddling in sod shelters until everyone is reduced to cave dwelling.

Meanwhile, the Earth itself is ridding itself of excess heat by bursting at whatever seams it can find, and making new ones where it needs them.

This topic has potential to be developed into a practical repository of knowledge and insight about how to assist the Earth in it's overheated condition. It's just an act of kindness, after all.

I note with amazement that hot lava is flowing right now into the ocean from several volcanic vents, and NO one is capturing that molten material to make building blocks for shipment around the world.

Would it take bold vision and a bit of robotic effort? Sure it would!

Is there anyone on the planet who has what it takes to capture that natural resource and make something useful?

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-11-18 13:52:09

It is time to bring this topic back into view ...

Recent work in the Gravity topic has led to thinking about drilling vertical shafts into the ground for storage of potential energy in a gravity field.

In another topic, the potential of geothermal energy to serve a household was brought up for study.

It appears (from a Quora post) that the (average) depth on Earth where temperatures are sufficient to boil water is (about) 4 kilometers.

Presumably, any household on Earth (not in a mountainous region) could drop a 4 kilometer shaft to draw power from the Earth's core.

Such power would ** seem ** to have long term potential,. so that costs of energy and water for drinking would be reduced, and the value of the property increased.

Update at 15:16 local time:

https://www.homeadvisor.com/cost/landsc … ll-a-well/

Irrigation or Agricultural
Per foot, expect to pay between $35 and $55 or above for agricultural and commercial uses. These costs are for drilling only but do account for the more complex process.
The borehole must be larger and is often deeper to account for more volume. Water quality regulations vary from state to state and can be very strict, requiring extra purification measures and more.

Converting 4 km to feet:

convert 4 kilometers to feet
Length 4 Kilometer = 13123.4 Foot
Formula
for an approximate result, multiply the length value by 3281

13124 * 55 > 721820

That estimate does not (apparently) include the cost of pipe.

I wonder if the entire job could be done for under $1,000,000 (US) ?

Update at 15:31 local time: Contact form on a local drilling company web site:

Please don't spend to much time on this. I'm working on a topic in the NewMars forum, regarding geothermal energy. I understand that Earth temperatures reach water boiling at about 4 kilometers down (2.5 miles). I found a source indicating that drilling a well to this depth might run $1,000,000 or so. Is that figure in the ballpark?
I noticed that your company mentions geothermal as one of your interests, but I'm assuming ??? this is limited to heat pumps?
Thanks (th)

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-01-17 18:19:39

I guess the earths core is talking to us when the poles are walking the earth temperature is changing.
Earth's Insides Are Cooling Faster Than We Thought, And It Will Mess Things Up

While the surface and atmosphere temperatures fluctuate over the eons (and yes, those external temperatures are currently warming), the molten interior – the beating heart of our planet – has been cooling this entire time. Because Earth's interior is still cooling, and will continue to do so, this means that eventually the interior will solidify, and the geological activity will cease, possibly turning Earth into a barren rock, akin to Mars or Mercury. New research has revealed that may happen sooner than previously thought.

So we are cooling quicker than in the past....

tahanson43206 · 2022-04-17 09:50:35

I am returning this topic to active status in hopes there are members of the forum who will want to study whether it is economically feasible to build a small business around a geothermal power well.

My guess is that this concept is not yet economically feasible, or it would already be happening.

However, advances in drilling technology may permit excavation of material below a drill site at a rate that could be justified for investment.

In this scenario, an individual might be able to obtain funding to drill a geothermal well, and sell the power to enough neighbors to repay the loan.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-05-03 08:17:12

Recent development of a chip able to directly translate thermal energy into electric current at an efficiency of (about) 40% may provide an opportunity. I'm hoping someone in the forum has the time to do an analysis.

The idea I have in mind to work with arises from recent conversation about designing machinery for use on Mars.

The effectiveness of the Seebeck effect (an early example of heat to current technology) depends upon the difference between the hot side and the cold side.

The MIT chip is (reportedly) more capable than ordinary Seebeck devices, but I'm guessing it too is most effective when it has a substantial gap between the hot side and the cold side. I'd appreciate someone studying the MIT work to confirm that expectation.

In any case, ** this ** post is about placing a package of liquid gas (such as nitrogen) at the bottom of a shaft into geothermal regions of the Earth's mantle.

The question I am asking is typical of a banker.

If you lend me $10 for safekeeping, and I lend your $10 to others who need short term loans, and if the borrower agrees to return the original loan with interest, then I can give part of the interest to you, and run my business on what is left.

This is the model I'm thinking about for a deep Earth thermal well...;.

It will take work to keep the stash of liquid nitrogen in a stable condition.

However, the MIT chips can convert thermal energy to electrical energy at about 40% efficiency.

What I'm not clear on, and would appreciate help with, is: Can I keep the nitrogen cold ** and ** deliver a surplus of electricity to the surface?

The Earth itself is pumping thermal energy into itself thanks to long running radioactivity, and it has a massive store in any case accumulated when the planet was formed.

Is there anyone in the forum who can tackle this question?

If not, and if there is someone not already a member who reads this post, we offer an easy way to apply for a membership.

Just read the Recruiting topic.

Possible Topic Title: Solid State Geothermal Power Plant

(th)

Calliban · 2022-05-03 08:27:40

tahanson43206 wrote:

Recent development of a chip able to directly translate thermal energy into electric current at an efficiency of (about) 40% may provide an opportunity. I'm hoping someone in the forum has the time to do an analysis.

TH, do you have a link for that? A solid state generator capable of converting 40% of heat into electricity, is revolutionary. It would make most thermodynamic plant with moving parts obsolete. Quite a big deal so far as new technology goes.

PS. Found it. Thermo-photovoltaics.
https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/ … c-2022-04/

The temperature may be a limitation: 1900 - 2400°C. Steel is liquid at those temperatures.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-05-03 09:11:41)

tahanson43206 · 2022-05-03 10:46:22

For Calliban re #9

Thank you for picking up on this speck of a possibility ...

The temperature you've given is available if we drill far enough into the Mantle of Earth, and I expect something similar is available on Mars, but the depth to drill may be greater.

A heat converter that is going to operate in those depths is going to be in the same league as machines to traipse around on Venus.

They are not in existence on Earth at this point, but if (a) they do not defy the laws of physics and (b) if we can imagine them then I expect they can be built.

I have two questions that I am hoping you (and possibly others) will take up...

(there are other questions - the floor is open ....)

Question 1: how does the MIT invention work? Does it require a cold side to work?

That makes a big difference, because if a probe full of these chips is placed in a hot material, it could generate electricity without the complication of a cold side.

Question 2: Assuming the devices need a cold side (as is true of Seebeck devices) then it is possible to imagine a container of liquid nitrogen at the depth where the chips are happy. It will require some work to keep the cold sink cold, and that can be done by using electricity to pull thermal energy out of the sink and deliver it to the nearby mantle material. The question (in that scenario) is: Is there a net excess of energy that can be delivered to the surface of the planet?

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-06-23 20:53:28

Here is an update on improved drilling technique for deep drilling for geothermal energy harvesting...

The technique (appears) to involve using microwave radiation that is different from that used in industry.

The goal (apparently) is to break up hard rock into nanometer sized particles so the drill does not need mud.

The cost of a hole (of a particular configuration) was estimated at 500,000 (USD) vs $30,000,000 for traditional mechanical methods.

Why This Fusion Tech May Be a Geothermal Energy Breakthrough
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8sjdOjNxIE

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-08-10 11:21:03

For Calliban .... since you are only on the Forum as time permits, and since you were able to free up some time today, I'm offering post #9 of this topic as a question I'm hoping you will consider.

The question I am asking (in summary) is whether it is possible to design an energy extraction system that can operate in the near-molten conditions of a planetary core, to generate electricity, due to the difference in temperature between the location of the probe, and a container of liquid gas.

The efficiency of thermal energy transfer to electricity is increased by the difference of temperature of the hot end and the cold end.

However, thermal energy not converted to electricity necessarily find's it's way into the cold repository.

Thus, the cold repository must be cooled constantly, to remove the thermal energy admitted via the energy collection system.

The question I am asking is: Can a system be devised that has a net positive flow of electricity in this situation?

The energy collection system will certainly generate electricity.

The question at hand is whether the amount of energy generated is sufficient to keep the cold sink cold, and yield a small "profit" to the operator.

The Earth is a gigantic, totally safe fission reactor. At present, humans are at risk of suffering damage due to the uncontrolled expulsion of thermal energy from the core via volcanism.

A system able to pull thermal energy from the core would act to draw excess energy from the core, and thus reduce the risk of volcanic eruption.

Geothermal systems that use water as a working fluid exist, but that is NOT what this question is about.

The ideal flow of energy from the core to the surface is via electric current.

Thus, I am hoping this question is of interest, and that you might have time to give it some thought.

As a reminder for readers .... a cooling system that would operate in the hot mantle of the Earth or other planets would necessarily have to create a working fluid much hotter than the surroundings, in order to deliver that heat energy to the surroundings, and remove it from the cold sink in the device.

An alternative is to employ a stream of fluid (water) to carry thermal energy from the cooling system that keeps the sink cold.

That fluid would be vaporized to steam, but it would NOT be captured for use, because it's purpose is to keep the sink cold.

The ideal solution would be to deliver the heat to the environment, and avoid use of water altogether.

(th)

Calliban · 2022-08-10 16:44:35

Most near Earth asteroids have eliptical orbits that take them out past the orbit of Mars. This makes them potentially useful as cyclers. However, the solar constant fluctuates enormously across their orbital period. This poses a challenge for space solar power. One option would be to use solar concentrators to raise heat that can be stored within the body of the asteroid. If the asteroid is 1km in diameter, has density 2500kg/m3 and specific heat of 1KJ/kg.K; then each degree Kelvin that it is heated, represents a storage of some 350,000MWh of heat. The regolith on the surface of the asteroid is an insulator with a considerably U value than rockwool. Most of it's orbit will be spent too far from the sun for solar power to be effective. However, if the whole rock can be heated to 295K, then that is comfortable room temperature. With a night temperature of 100K, a heat engine could run continuously converting stored heat into 24/7 power. A similar thing could be used on the moon to generate power through its 14-day night period.

tahanson43206 · 2022-08-10 17:05:32

For Calliban re #13

Bravo! This is the first time I've heard/seen such an idea! It's perfect coming from the Mars Society!

SearchTerm:Asteroid heat storage

SearchTerm:Thermal energy asteroid heat storage

An advantage available to an asteroid heat harvester is the ready availability of the deep cold of space, to insure maximum difference between hot and cold .

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-08-11 08:51:03

For Calliban re #9

SearchTerm:www.electronicsweekly.com/
SearchTerm:efficiency near 40%
SearchTerm:mit research on thermo-electric generator

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04473-y

nature articles article
Thermophotovoltaic efficiency of 40%
Download PDF
Article
Open Access
Published: 13 April 2022
Thermophotovoltaic efficiency of 40%
Alina LaPotin, Kevin L. Schulte, Myles A. Steiner, Kyle Buznitsky, Colin C. Kelsall, Daniel J. Friedman, Eric J. Tervo, Ryan M. France, Michelle R. Young, Andrew Rohskopf, Shomik Verma, Evelyn N. Wang & Asegun Henry
Nature volume 604, pages287–291 (2022)Cite this article
53k Accesses
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Abstract
Thermophotovoltaics (TPVs) convert predominantly infrared wavelength light to electricity via the photovoltaic effect, and can enable approaches to energy storage1,2 and conversion3,4,5,6,7,8,9 that use higher temperature heat sources than the turbines that are ubiquitous in electricity production today. Since the first demonstration of 29% efficient TPVs (Fig. 1a) using an integrated back surface reflector and a tungsten emitter at 2,000 °C (ref. 10), TPV fabrication and performance have improved11,12. However, despite predictions that TPV efficiencies can exceed 50% (refs. 11,13,14), the demonstrated efficiencies are still only as high as 32%, albeit at much lower temperatures below 1,300 °C (refs. 13,14,15). Here we report the fabrication and measurement of TPV cells with efficiencies of more than 40% and experimentally demonstrate the efficiency of high-bandgap tandem TPV cells. The TPV cells are two-junction devices comprising III–V materials with bandgaps between 1.0 and 1.4 eV that are optimized for emitter temperatures of 1,900–2,400 °C. The cells exploit the concept of band-edge spectral filtering to obtain high efficiency, using highly reflective back surface reflectors to reject unusable sub-bandgap radiation back to the emitter. A 1.4/1.2 eV device reached a maximum efficiency of (41.1 ± 1)% operating at a power density of 2.39 W cm–2 and an emitter temperature of 2,400 °C. A 1.2/1.0 eV device reached a maximum efficiency of (39.3 ± 1)% operating at a power density of 1.8 W cm–2 and an emitter temperature of 2,127 °C. These cells can be integrated into a TPV system for thermal energy grid storage to enable dispatchable renewable energy. This creates a pathway for thermal energy grid storage to reach sufficiently high efficiency and sufficiently low cost to enable decarbonization of the electricity grid.

The article about the paper mentions disposing of heat not converted out the "back" of the device, but the heat sink is not identified.

Asking Google about the temperatures inside the Earth:

1,900–2,400 °C.

9.2 The Temperature of Earth's Interior – Physical Geologyhttps://opentextbc.ca › geology › chapter › 9-2-the-tem...
The temperature is around 1000°C at the base of the crust, around 3500°C at the base of the mantle, and around 5,000°C at Earth's centre. The temperature ...

So a bore to reach the temperature of interest would have to pass through the crust into the mantle.

Asking Google about volcano temperatures, we have:

About 6,010,000 results (0.45 seconds)
How hot is a Hawaiian volcano? | U.S. Geological Surveyhttps://www.usgs.gov › faqs › how-hot-hawaiian-volcano
The eruption temperature of Kīlauea lava is about 1,170 degrees Celsius (2,140 degrees Fahrenheit). The temperature of the lava in the tubes is about 1,250 ...

From National Geographic:https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/magma

There are three basic types of magma: basaltic, andesitic, and rhyolitic, each of which has a different mineral composition. All types of magma have a significant percentage of silicon dioxide. Basaltic magma is high in iron, magnesium, and calcium but low in potassium and sodium. It ranges in temperature from about 1000oC to 1200oC (1832oF to 2192oF). Andesitic magma has moderate amounts of these minerals, with a temperature range from about 800oC to 1000oC (1472oF to 1832oF). Rhyolitic magma is high in potassium and sodium but low in iron, magnesium, and calcium. It occurs in the temperature range of about 650oC to 800oC (1202oF to 1472oF). Both the temperature and mineral content of magma affect how easily it flows.

None of these reach the temperatures needed by the MIT thermo-electric generator

The article from 2012 at the link below indicates a project to drill to the mantle would cost about $1 bn (USD)
https://www.cnn.com/2012/10/01/tech/man … index.html

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-08-14 08:17:06

Here is a teaser to try to entice folks to subscribe to the publication ...

I'm wondering if this is another look at using microwave energy to ? melt ? rock as a more efficient drilling method than traditional rotating pipe drills?

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg … o-access-d

Millimetre-wave beams could give us access to deep geothermal energy
Optimised for fusion research, millimetre-wave beam technology could be adapted to access the heat that lies several kilometres below Earth's surface, says Eugene Linden
This article has been viewed 5102 times in the last 24 hours.
ENVIRONMENT | COMMENT 10 August 2022
By Eugene Linden
New Scientist Default Image
FOR years, those looking to generate electricity without using fossil fuels have dreamed of tapping the virtually unlimited heat source that lies 8 kilometres or more beneath Earth’s surface. Prior efforts have been stymied because getting to that heat entails drilling into rock that is too hard for conventional techniques. Now, one tantalising possibility involves repurposing an existing technology to tap into this source and produce electricity at a lower cost than any existing form of power generation.
This isn’t, however, simply a matter of economics. Even if all nations were to meet the pledges that were made under the Paris Agreement on climate change, temperatures …
Existing subscribers, please log in with your email address to link your account access.
MORE FROM NEW SCIENTIST

(th)

Void · 2022-08-14 20:47:30

I think that this is a similar article (th): https://www.treehugger.com/geothermal-d … gy-5219924
Quote:

You Can Have Geothermal Power Everywhere If You Drill Deep Enough
A new technology drills with microwaves and can go down 12 miles to where the real heat is.
By
Lloyd Alter
Published February 23, 2022 09:00AM EST
Fact checked by
Katherine Martinko

I think it may not be out of the question for this to be a good thing for Mars.

My thinking about Mars, is what I have read, and that says that Mars has not had that much tectonics, and so I am guessing that sediments have been building up for billions of years. That alternately seems to be covered in lava flows.

The crust of Mars is supposed to be more porous than that of Earth, and it appears that the hot core is stratified. To me that indicates that although small, Mars may have conserved its heat, while Earth has been pumping it out through the spreading plates of the oceans.

I also wonder about that drilling technology, to go sideways, as it may serve humans well to have honeycombs of undergrounds for extensive habitable areas.

And as I believe I have seen Calliban suggest an ice-covered lake as a radiator.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-14 20:55:06)

tahanson43206 · 2022-08-15 11:44:36

For Void re #17

Thank you for the link you provided and for your additional commentary.

I'd like to see this topic evolve to include detail that a wealthy individual, or (more likely) a group could employ to create a financially reliable and productive entity. Production of energy is a time honored way to earn a living for an individual, or generate income for a group.

The initial investment in equipment to drill and to operate a facility is significant, but maintenance costs ** should ** be low compared to other industries, so the prospect of eventually repaying the investment and securing a steady return should be favorable.

Investments in oil and coal extraction facilities appear to have generated favorable returns for investors in the past, but (as Calliban keeps pointing out) eventually those resources laid up by Ma Nature over millions of years are not going to be replaced.

On the ** other ** hand, the fission reactor at the center of the Earth is in the early stage of a very long run indeed.

By drawing thermal energy from the core of the Earth, humans can (or could) reduce the need for Ma Nature to create volcanoes to let pressure release.

This is certainly not a new idea. I've seen it in articles before, and expect to see more in the future.

What seems (from my perspective) to be lacking is a concerted effort to turn vision into working facilities around the world.

The new drilling technique you have shown us may provide a way to reduce costs so that payback can be achieved sooner than presently is the case.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-09-09 14:17:18

For Void... this is your topic, so I hope this post by Calliban is a good fit for your intentions:

Calliban wrote:

In terms of actions that may help everyone, in Europe at least...
Most of the population of the UK live in densely populated towns and cities. It should be feasible to use district heating to meet the heating requirements of a large fraction of homes and businesses in urban areas. District heating has traditionally made use of combined heat and power plants, which dump their waste heat into the heating network. Unfortunately, traditional fossil fuels are increasingly unavailable in Europe, so a CHP system based on coal or gas offers limited utility. Nuclear powerplants are large units producing 1500 - 5000MW of low grade heat, with a temperature of 30°C. The present fleet is poorly suited to provide bulk heat for heating purposes, because they produce huge quantities of low grade heat a long way from its demand centres.
I propose we build district heating networks supplied with pumped geothermal heat, stored in large tanks. Outside of every significant town we drill bore holes, deep into the water table. The water that is withdrawn from these wells will have temperature of 10-30°C, depending on location. When excess electricity is available from wind farms (mostly autumn and winter), we pump this water out of a source well, pass it through the heat exchanger of a heat pump and into a return well. The heat pump produces hot water with temperature 70°C. This can be stored in a buffer tank, storing days or weeks of peak heat demand for the town, prior to entering the district heating network.
A heat pump with a cold source at 300K and a hot outlet of 340K, would have a theoretical Carnot efficiency of 7.5. For a large heat pump, producing several tens of MW of heat, irreversibilities will be minimised and achieving 2/3 to 3/4 of Carnot efficiency should be possible. So a coefficient of performance of 5 or more should be achievable. Total space and water heat demand for the UK is something like 500TWh per year. If 2/3 of this heat can ultimately be met using district heating supplied using geothermal heat pumps, then we need an extra 70TWh of electric generation, mostly in autumn, winter and early spring. Offshore wind power is well suited to this task, as its output is seasonal and concentrated in the colder months. That would require about 20GWe of wind power capacity with an average capacity factor of 40%. That would imply building wind farms covering 3200km2 of UK land and seabed. This is about as much wind capacity as the UK has already.
The amount of steel and concrete embedded in the wind power infrastructure per unit heat will be modest. This is because we get five units of heat for each unit of electricity input to the heat pump and the electricity received by the heat pumps does need to be buffered, because the heat storage tank provides all the energy storage needed. So the system is designed to absorb excess electricity from the grid, storing it as heat and distributing it as heat. In unusual lull periods, where wind power is insufficient to provide heat for a week of more, a boiler burning stored biomass or coal could supply the heating network. But this would be lightly used, supplying maybe 10% of the total heat load over a long term average.
The most expensive thing would be the hot water distribution pipe network. This would consist of insulated concrete pipes running under every street. Installing this would be a huge project. It would require digging up every street and installing large diameter pipes. One way or another, building a sustainable heating solution for a nation is an expensive and time consuming endeavour. If you want the goodies in life, you have to cough up the cash.

(th)

Void · 2022-09-09 19:08:55

I have a lot of faith in what Calliban contrives. I think he is on to a rather good plan.

I might say that in the warm seasons perhaps the reverse could be done to pull cold out of the underground water and so then heat the water below, and the rocks associated with them.

Of course, for Brittan, that need for cold in the summer is much less than for most places in the USA. But if it is scrap electricity, during wind surges perhaps it could heat swimming pools if nothing else. Just a thought.

I viewed a video on Utube, about Danish wind. I know that the British may have more wind....:)

Anyway, the notion is that over time they expect to produce a lot of Hydrogen for Export, in addition to satisfying their own energy needs.

Of course, it will be a long time coming up to speed. This is a video about it but not the one I watched: https://www.businessinsider.com/germany … gas-2022-8

I will dare to speak on an issue. The Roman cities have always been against the peoples of the north. You need to not misunderstand me. I do not propose a crusade against Dublin, London, Paris, Rome, Athens, Cairo, >>
But these large agricultural centers, do not particularly favor industrial activities, and in some cases, they despise such.

You have to understand that the south elites, only want plantation structure culture. We have our own on this continent and are dealing with similar problems.

The objective is balance. They are on one end of the scale and in the case of Europe, north is the other. In the case of North America, north-west is the other.

The problem is that these vertical power structures simply cannot comprehend a reality where common people are not their servants. And they become jealous of power, should the industrious prosper.

I hated Ronald Reagan, until I liked him. But he gave us the Service Industry to replace rust belt industrial (Actual Industry). Do you think that the root word of Service is Servant? I understand why, in the geopolitical scheme of things. It was important to counterbalance China against something else. And truth be known, it would have been a terrible waste to not put China to useful work.

But we are supposed to be moving back into the other half of the cycle, and the vertical rulers are jealous of power, and have done much to try to destroy the industrial possibilities.

Thankfully we have rednecks and not just pencil necks here. They saved us with Shale to some degree, when the evil morons pretending to be gracious givers of wealth that they take from blue collar workers, to try to make sure that there are masses of poorly developed people who they can easily bend to their will.

So, I understand that the coal mines of Brittan were purposely flooded. There may have been a reason for it.

I do believe that green and blue energy eventually will become more and more practical. But the correct plan should have been to hold the coal in reserve against a rainy day. But the actual plan was probably to hobble the common people and teach them to be tolerant of having less.

Now they have pissed off the Russians, and many others, and now the North Koreans are getting involved on the Russian side, and the South Koreans on the Ukraine side. The Romans knew to not bother what was north of Hadrian's wall.

In the USA, we solved this balance with our prior methods. Of course, now we also have these spoiled morons pressing on the Continent and irritating the undesirables. I think you know what us undesirables think of them.

And so now hell is breaking loose. I hope it can be stabilized. I believe that our problem here is that the people who live around our old capital buildings are just not representative of the USA's average population. And they keep trying to Americanize us, although I don't actually think that the apointocracy is really that American. It is partly American in my opinion.

But enough of that. We know who they are and what they do when they can. The trick is to fix the situation if possible and I am very happy Calliban is around.

Wind is of course the trick for some parts of Europe at least.

For North American wind can be good in several places, and solar as well. I think that in a curious way, the original dreams of Thomas Edison and Henry Ford might work out well, but instead of wind in many places then Solar with a heat pump.

In that dream long ago, the idea was for people to have windmills to charge their cars which were to be electric. Then too the power in the battery would be available for the home as well at times. It's a long story, but Edisons labs were sabotaged, and the batteries were tested wrong on purpose (They did not charge them before testing, and then said that they were no good). Edison was too old to start again, they had burned down his labs.

But now, enter Elon Musk and Tesla with solar technology and batteries. Also consider what I think will come is heat pumps on Solar panels. This could well, make solar useful in much more of the country. Perhaps it would also be possible to cool a home with radiators in a solar panel, using a heat pump. In a way this is like what Calliban has suggested.

But this also has a National Security feature. When the power grids are down, (If they are down), then home owners will be happy to have power and heat/cold, even if it is only parts of the time.

It would be much easier to survive and would accelerate recovery in a disaster situation, most likely.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-10 09:19:03)

Void · 2022-09-10 09:22:37

I realize that I sometimes have a Brain-OldFart39, but I do try.

kdb512 challenges solar quite often, and he is not so wrong about the now, I feel.

Some things I believe he has criticized are:
-We don't recycle solar panels very well.
-Solar Panels very likely currently involve burning fossil fuels even coal, and I believe they are not re-shored very well yet.
-Powering homes and cars with solar electric or other electric will require a much more robust power grid system(s).

And those are legitimate concerns.

I see that perhaps Tesla and other providers may provide a reasonable path, at least in some of the climate zones of the USA/North America/World.

Ideally, I would like solar panels to become heat exchangers as well, for the roofs of homes. Those to be used with Heat Pumps. What's in that for the British? Well, if other solar people can be weaned more off of combustion methods, then those who live in places where it is still needed, get a lower price, and have more liberty to burn things.

The more solar panels, the more likely that a form of recycling them or repurposing their remains after death can emerge as economic.

I am very fond of solar thermal, but in the above scheme, there will be less load on the power grids.

So, that may address some of the concerns of the anti-solar crowd.

------

In case people think I hate the line of cities that I mentioned in the previous post, and also their children emerging on the North American Continent, no, I just don't want them to keep repeating the same stupid things and causing turmoil in places which should not be in their jurisdiction.

As an example, the fascism of WWII is advertised as a Northern European instigated activity. In reality they hoped to emulate the Roman Empire. And so, they as usual assumed that the people of the North were inferiors. But they found a way to convince many of the northerners that they were some super races and should be happy to go and fight the enemy. That worked rather well because certain entities, had demanded vast reparations. So then how stupid to find a super race and kill them off in wars?

I have read that historically the agricultural cities of the Mediterranean basin were regarded as whores in one case and as a female to marry in another. The Hebrews to Canan, the Greeks to Greece. In the case of the Greeks, it was considered a marriage of cultures. That is supposedly indicated by artifacts of art.

I don't think that the line of cities is unique, it may occur in other flavors in other parts of the world.

My own analysis, (Which could be wrong), is that it involves a small group of alpha males breeding excessively, and a large number of subservient females (But not subservient), and the bulk of the males are held under this social pyramid. I think it lends itself to degeneracy over time. Because it is mostly about the manipulation of people with words and crude violence in the end.

So, this becomes Hierarchal in structure.

The vast open places to the north can be places where people, including common men can at times have some power.

Not too long ago genetically such people lived in the Mammoth Steppe. So, they may tend to be more horizontal in their thinking. Perhaps more likely to make a living by manipulating objects more than manipulating people.

Hell in the south is dungeons and gallows, so vertical. Hell in the north is to be engulfed by another tribe, so horizontal.

In America, the Natives were rather horizontal, in nature, so I consider that the collision between Europeans and them, did create an environment where the vertical could not get so far out of control. So, a representative republic was possible.

After WWII influences from more horizontal cultures allowed some form of unity to arise. But now Brussels.

That does not have to be a death blow, it remains to be seen if the north can temper the dictatorial inclinations of such an entity. It will be tough in my opinion. We are having severe problems here with our cities more towards the east where corruption is trying to lead us as well to a pseudo-Roman dictatorship.

I don't think the American people are going to put up with it.

But I may have to revise my thinking.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-10 10:02:59)

tahanson43206 · 2022-09-11 06:48:28

For Void,

This post is about your topic.

It is also about how you want to manage the topic.

SpaceNut is thinking about my request to create a separate topic about Geothermal power, in order to save this topic for posts you may wish to create.

I have noticed that most posts by persons not named Void are unwelcome in topics created and managed by Void.

For that reason, I generally resist the temptation to intrude on any topic created and managed by Void.

I am faced with a dilemma due to the reluctance of SpaceNut to open a new topic when yours would do perfectly well.

Please clarify your position.

We have an opportunity to enlist the talents and interests of Callban to design a Geothermal system for customers from private individuals to villages, towns or even small cities.

However, these activities would necessarily clutter the topic and might cause distress for the topic manager.

If you would prefer that SpaceNut open a new topic, please say so clearly.

(th)

Void · 2022-09-11 09:29:48

Well, you both can do as you like as far as I am concerned.

I would welcome any materials from Calliban at least.

I am going on an old guy fishing trip. Not what we were, Our ambitions appropriate for our ages. So, I will be gone for 3 days perhaps.

Done.

tahanson43206 · 2022-09-11 10:12:09

For Void re #23

Best wishes for safe travels and enjoyable times in your adventures!

For Calliban re #23

It appears you have a green light from Topic Manager Void to post about geothermal power.

In the absence of a specific topic that might be approved by SpaceNut at some time in the future, please develop a vision of how geothermal power might be harnessed by these potential customers:

1) Wealthy home/property owner in Canada or Northern latitudes generally
2) The same for Southern latitudes, including Antarctica
3) Village seeking independence from a regional or national grid
4) Town as above
5) City as above

I am making the assumption, based upon the massive power estimated to release with volcanic eruptions on Earth, that there is plenty of thermal power waiting to be tapped inside the Earth.

The potential market opportunities seem to me inversely proportional to the size of the customer.

In other words, the fewer people you have to convince, the better.

If you can develop a plan for a Geothermal power supply that could interest ** one ** suitably wealthy family, then you have the opportunity to turn an idea into Real Universe reality. And ** that ** would be so unusual that media outlets around the world would gather to collect information.

For reference, from FriendOfQuark1, we have on record an estimate of cost of $12.000 to build a geothermal system in Texas.

To be sure there is no confusion, this is NOT a heat pump. A heat pump only goes a short distance down under the surface.

A Geothermal system would go kilometers down.

To be sure I am quoting FriendOfQuark1 correctly, I'll write today to make sure.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-09-11 12:47:21

Special for Calliban re Geothermal Energy Solution for Royal properties....

The UK is one of the few nations that still have a working Monarchy.

I just watched a report on the tradition of signing over the Royal properties to the Nation for safekeeping and management, in return for a generous stipend.

Please consider the possibility of creating a Geothermal Energy Solution for one of those properties.

The land area of the properties (or at least some of them) appears to be generous, but I am not talking about wind or solar power, so that the beautifully maintained grounds can stay that way.

Instead, I am hoping you will be inspired by this opportunity, to develop a plan for a Geothermal power and heating supply that draws energy from the center of the Earth, for centuries to come.

No need to grow and burn wood, except for traditional occasions.

If you develop a practical system that the King can afford, then you will have created a demonstration project that can be replicated (at lower cost) by hundreds if not thousands of wealthy families around the planet.

This would (presumably) lead to ever decreasing costs, because bright people (in the UK to start with) would figure out how to drill to depth for less and less money, and how to make and set pipes for less and less money.

(th)

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