New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: As a reader of NewMars forum, we have opportunities for you to assist with technical discussions in several initiatives underway. NewMars needs volunteers with appropriate education, skills, talent, motivation and generosity of spirit as a highly valued member. Write to newmarsmember * gmail.com to tell us about your ability's to help contribute to NewMars and become a registered member.

#51 2022-02-15 08:33:49

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 9,955

Re: Large ship analog

For SpaceNut ... you can make a model of the proposed Large Ship floor plan for about $15.

I found a roll of contact paper on Amazon:

Zip Tac Black & White Checkers Contact paper--9 ft x 18in
Brand: Tiles
4.5 out of 5 stars    277 ratings
$12.99

The squares are 1 inch on a side, so the width is short by one inch, but if you lay the paper on the floor, you can put masking tape on one side and reach the full 19 inches, so simulate a Large Ship with 1 inch equal to 1 meter.

The roll is 9 feet long, so it is 228 inches long compared to 238 meters in Large Ship.

It would be possible to make a short ten inch extension using ordinary typewriter / printer paper and just trace the needed squares.

Now use 1060 washers to represent the passengers and crew.  Put them where ever you like.

Mark off the spokes and the cabins, and what you have left is "fine dining" and whatever else you can think of that folks might need.

Then imagine yourself as one of those washers.  Move around a bit.  Interact with the other washers.  Sniff the air.

Please report back!

(th)

Online

#52 2022-02-15 10:42:54

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 9,955

Re: Large ship analog

For SpaceNut re home model of Large Ship layout ...

I found another offer on Amazon that looks ** really ** good! It is a bit more expensive, but comes ** very ** close to the mark.
The squares are 1.18 inches, which means there are 20 in the 24 inch width of a roll.  At 117 inches per roll, you need two to reach 234 inches.
That is still a bit short ... You get 198 squares in the long dimensions, so still need to stretch the display. Three rolls would put you over the mark, but now the price is a bit over **  my ** budget... $72 for three rolls, but at least shipping is free.

GLOW4U Self Adhesive Plaid Pattern Decorative Vinyl Contact Paper Drawer Shelf Liner for Cabinets Dresser Counter Wall Arts and Crafts Decor (24" Wx117 L)
Visit the GLOW4U Store
3.5 out of 5 stars    12 ratings
$23.99
Brand    GLOW4U
Material    Polyvinyl Chloride
Size    24" Wx117" L
Number of Pieces    1
About this item
Pvc ,Thickness :0.2 Mm , Heat and Water Resistant
Removable peel and stick plaid contact paper roll.
Water resistant ,Bubble Free ,this decorative contact paper has a peel away backing with measure and grid lines to make it easy for you to create new looks or repairing the appearance of any existing smooth surfaces.

Use our decorative plaid vinyl wallpaper shelf liner to cover Kitchen cabinets ,countertop ,shelves, dresser, drawer, nightstand,bookcase,pantry, rv,appliance ,furniture, arts craft projects. Use in bathroom, kitchens, closets, laundry rooms, school projects, workshops, office, classroom .

This white and black plaid contact paper is easy to cut,instant peel and apply to flat surfaces .
Size : Comes on a 24" x 117" per roll.(60cm x 3m)

New (2) from $23.99 FREE Shipping on orders over $25.00 shipped by Amazon.

The advantage of the 1.18 inch grid is that 1 inch diameter checker pieces representing people are a bit better matched to the floor space. I'm assuming every person is going to want some minimal amount of air around them, most of the time.

(th)

Online

#53 2022-02-15 10:56:25

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 9,955

Re: Large ship analog

For SpaceNut in case you decide to pursue this at-home Large Ship floorplan ...

https://www.etsy.com/ has 1 inch diameter steel disks on offer for 300 for $5.00 (USD) <verifying: 300 confirmed>

You'd need four packages to reach 1060, and have some left over for visiting parents or police in case of a disturbance due to nerves on edge.
At the moment (2022/02/15) there are only 3 packages available but I'm assuming they will restock at some point.
That would give you nine hundred "people" and a package of checker [pieces come in bags of 48], so 3 bags >> 144 + 900 >> 1044.

HappyBugStudios

6,133 sales
|
5 out of 5 stars   
Steel Metal Discs 1" ONE INCH - 300 Discs
$5.00

Low in stock

Quantity

1
Add to cart
Selling fast! Only 3 left, and 10 people have it in their carts.

Highlights
Materials: steel discs 1 inch


Description
These are 1" flat tempered steel discs that you can use for many crafting purposes. For the thickness, a stack of 5 of these equals 1mm (or .2 mm each). Magnets will stick to these.

Meet your sellers
HappyBugStudios
Owner of HappyBugStudios

Message
This seller usually responds within 24 hours.

1,529 shop reviews
5 out of 5 stars   

Sort by: Recommended

(th)

Online

#54 2022-02-15 11:29:18

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 9,955

Re: Large ship analog

Staples carries poster boards in sets of 10 that could serve as the foundation for an at-home model floorplan for Large Ship:

Staples Poster Board, 22" x 28" White, 10/Pack (28126)
756
Final price$5.49

12 of these would be needed to hold the model, if the boards are set in landscape mode.

(th)

Online

#55 2022-02-15 19:34:41

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,311

Re: Large ship analog

this page has the majority of those layouts

There seems to be a false impression of the large ships rotating ring as to how people interact with the inside  surfaces.

This is how a square would appear inside a circle.
RingSquare.png

the equation for a flat floor of which the feet to the head gradient would be different as you traverse the floor.
main-qimg-71496242a8aad20c0ef05484e357b479



Here is the floor and cielings for the station just remove the squares
media%2F7f7%2F7f7cbea6-de72-48f8-ae2d-ff662b19b336%2FphpwVsmKI.png


Here is how one stands within the rotating ship
slide-intro.jpg


This how the ring would look from the inside where the outer circumference is the floor you are standing on. Its curved.
sddefault.jpg

So how would we simulate the curved floor of the ship since its going to be on the edge circumference where its widest.
This is a half circle of which the e to f dimension is all the curve one could have when the A touches the ground when you create the rotating floor area once you place it upside down on the ground so that the flat edge is up.

main-qimg-ce3c9aa1254e57cd2a0c13974f654566

So to get a complete circle circumference we need to stagger more sections until we get the total inside length also this means each room is widest along the arc of the circumference and shorter on the ceiling and the next floor towards the center has less rooms. I am trying to force the design to the form that the large ship takes so as to practice moving on a curve. which means stuff needs to be bolted down and closed to ensure nothing is a drift.

Offline

#56 2022-02-15 20:06:44

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,311

Re: Large ship analog

one way the floors could be designed by cutting the center of the ring in the middle but I think that it is on the circumference side.

How-to-Cut-Cake_Feature-1024x480.jpg.webp


here is another method to create 2 decks.
cake-cutting-diagram-larger-tiers.jpg

The gravity would be this way on earth where the ring would contact the ground
pdgxUPa.png

Offline

#57 2022-02-15 22:44:25

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,241
Website

Re: Large ship analog

I don't think the analog has to simulate the curve. The walls will be vertical. Floor plan is basically a flat, long narrow single deck. I suggested simulating the fact you can walk around the ring by splitting the habitation ring into two decks. With a stairway at the end of each deck. I got this idea from junior high school where I went for grade 7 and the first couple months of grade 8. It had stairways at the ends.

In a real cabin, the ceiling will not be as wide as the floor. Because of the cake sections shown in post #56. But I'm suggesting we don't need that level of fidelity for the analog. A ceiling as wide as the floor is not going to affect how you use the space. The picture of the ship in post #56 gives a good idea; that's Discovery from 2001: A Space Odyssey. The first 22 seconds of the following video clip shows Space Station 5 from the same movie. Notice the floor curved up in the distance. But wherever you stand, it feels like it's a flat floor.
YouTube: life in space from 2001 space odyssey

Another clip, this time from the movie "Passengers". The link starts the clip at the point where the main character enters the command ring. The ship is much larger than our Large Ship, but the command ring is actually smaller. (I think) It's only relevant for the first 20 seconds after the point I tagged. Click the link, it will start at that point. It shows the corridor with a floor curving up.
YouTube: PASSANGERS 2017 - I'M ALL ALONE SCENE

To film these shots, they built a set with a curved floor. Passengers on the real ship will not feel a curved floor, it will feel as if it's flat. But the movie set has a curved floor. Actors walked up the curve. In the case of 2001: A Space Odyssey, there's a scene (not shown) where one character walks from the far end of the lounge to the seating area that is shown. It's obvious the actor started on a level floor, then stepped down onto the curve. He walked to the cluster of seats that is shown in the clip.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2022-02-15 22:45:41)

Offline

#58 2022-02-16 06:10:52

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 9,955

Re: Large ship analog

For all who are contributing to the Analog topic ...;

The idea of SpaceNut, to build a full scale model of the Large Ship on the Earth, with curved features, has been firming up in my thinking over the past hours.  I think there is a ** very ** good case for an engineering model that has the ring stacked on it's side, so all the pieces can be assembled on the Earth as they would be in space.

This model would NOT be for living, since it would be stacked so the floor is vertical.  however, it ** would ** be perfect for engineering students to try out ideas for equipment.

The living test analog needs to be laid out flat, as RobertDyck described in post #57.

The engineering analog does NOT need to move.  The engineering students don't need movement to be able to visualize the structures and the flow of forces.  Their brains are optimized for such visualizations.

The prospective passengers NEED to be able to experience the reality of life in a volume of 19 meters by 238 meters by 3 meters for six to eight months.  Movement of the structure is NOT required.  What is to be tested is the ability of 1060 human beings to endure confinement in such a space.

All discussion of rotation is irrelevant, if human beings cannot tolerate the conditions proposed.

(th)

Online

#59 2022-02-19 21:34:34

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,311

Re: Large ship analog

I have been looking to add to the capability to build and test radiation protection systems as such to get more information on a permanent magnet coil modified system that might be employed on the real deal.
This is also doing the curve piping, electrical tray distribution system, and many other constructions to bring it closer to the real deal for fell.
Of course we will do a simulated greenhouse which will be modeled and other such things that are in the large ship as well.

Offline

#60 2022-04-11 21:17:52

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,311

Re: Large ship analog

Since we are not ready to build for orbit we might as well flesh out some of the ship.

Not on orbit but we can practice for another purpose as we started to talk about simulating for college university levels of education. Simulating dorms, kitchens ect... That is a funding avenue and should be part of the mars society university as it gives real engineering and planning for the large ship from lessons that can be learned in that topic. It is a pseudo simulation of the environment of living and growing food in a large ship. Depending on its sealing we can also get a better ball park for electrical usage, sewage creation tank sizing, water processing, food growth to type, ect....

Offline

#61 2022-04-11 21:26:00

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,311

Re: Large ship analog

If we are using solar we need to calculate out the surface of the ring that would have them and compensate for earth surface difference to provide the baseline value of power for continuous use as if it were a large ship. If the large ship gets a third deck then the surface area of the ring increase.

The journey starts out on orbit with 1300 W/m2 max and fades on the way out to mars to just 590 W/m2. So we can simulate the 6 to 9 month power fade to get people to understand we have power limits.

That same natural lighting can be simulated with greenhouse food growth by shading the light that would come into the area we would use.

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB