Large scale colonization ship

SpaceNut · 2022-03-04 17:57:47

basically tie 11 starships together in orbit and stuff it with the supplies for surface stay and you end up with the monster we are buiding. That has no support to get it to the surface and no capability to restock or to refuel the large ship for the return home.

SpaceNut · 2022-03-04 18:24:51

Yes I remember the docking plate with holes. The question is we need at a minimum 2 points on each hull to stabilize the ring of them keeping the ring attachment as far apart as possible. Its got to be easy to do as we need to get them apart when approaching mars. The big thing with the plate is its going to stay in orbit with the cargo to return with. I also think we need drop cargo containers to off load some more of that cargo that is eaten and used on the way out. That means each staship must hold the goods for 1/2 the surface stay while 12 ships for cargo already been sent.

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Big Wheel Gyroscope Space Transport topic

RobertDyck · 2022-03-05 00:58:51

SpaceNut wrote:

basically tie 11 starships together in orbit and stuff it with the supplies for surface stay and you end up with the monster we are buiding. That has no support to get it to the surface and no capability to restock or to refuel the large ship for the return home.

Actually no. With 11 Starships you get cylinders, each with one pointy end. That makes interior space very awkward, and you have to add floors. You can't simply stuff it with supplies, because you will never be able to stuff enough supplies to keep 1,000 people alive and breathing for 6 months. No recycling life support, no Mars.

SpaceNut · 2022-03-05 08:48:41

It was for mass and people estimating as you said the pointy nose makes it difficult to utilize as a transport long term.
Starship really does need a super large version of a Cygnus to make it more functional for long duration.

SpaceNut · 2022-03-09 22:04:15

I have been looking back on the use of a greenhouse as a part of life support and have made a couple posts about where nasa is Mars Lunar Greenhouse 5af1cf926598e02b008b45a2?width=1000&format=jpeg&auto=webp

This could be something that we not only can use as a base design onboard the ship but since the level of people that might remain on the large ship continuing to grow food we will want a similar system on the mars surface to give replacement parts and general knowledge for its use.

The buried units on the mars surface will require a sleeve for it to reside within.

Mars-Lunar Greenhouse (M-LGH). Funded by NASA Ralph Steckler Program, our team has designed and constructed a set of four cylindrical innovative 5.5 m (18 ft) long by 1.8 m (7 ft) diameter membrane M-LGHs with a cable-based hydroponic crop production system in a controlled environment that exhibits a high degree of future Lunar and/or Mars mission fidelity.
Bioregenerative Life Support
• Per Person Basis
 0.84 kg/day O2
 3.9 kg/day H2O
 50% of 11.8 MJ/day [BVAD Values, 2006]
•2000 Cal/day diet
•Buried habitat
•Six month crew change duration
•Solar for energy supply
•Autonomous deployment
Average daily water consumption 25.7 L day-1
Average daily CO2 consumption 0.22 kg day-1
Average daily elec. power consumption 100.3 kWh day-1 (361 MJ)
24 ± 4 g biomass (ww) per kWh, or
(83 g biomass (ww) per MJ)
edible + non-edible biomass
35.9 min day-1 labor use for operations

SpaceNut · 2022-03-12 21:02:11

Rather than make the other post to long https://www.omnicalculator.com/math/cylinder-volume

volume of the ring

ship ring is 19m x =

So the question is how much of it will achieve the food growth as the 1000 x 6m x 2m x2m =

Design for a space habitat with artificial gravity that could be enlarged over time to fit more people

Design for a space habitat with artificial gravity that could be enlarged over time to fit more people
occupant of the station would need approximately 300 m2 of farmland to support them. With an expanded habitat growing out to a radius of 224 meters (52 separate 4-meter-high floors with a 20 meter innermost cylinder), there would be enough agricultural and living space to house 8000 people.

SpaceNut · 2022-03-13 13:03:31

That while its a good question to explore

Biggest topic after meeting was safety and emergency procedures.

Since this is a single large ship its fix the issue or bandaid it enough to make it to mars and of course what is an emergency to one may nit be as critical as it might seem to be once all the systems data is analyzed.

Reminder "Apollo 13" for sure but also when we knew the shuttle had taken a hit and still tried to get it back to earth with out taking an additional look.

SpaceNut · 2022-03-13 16:15:07

RobertDyck wrote:

Emergency procedures:
Every pressure sub-compartment will have pressure sensors. I case of pressure lock, an alarm will sound with both sound and flashing strobe light. If pressure is lost, the alarm will not be audible, so the light will be necessary. The common equipment box on the roof of every pressure compartment will include water filtration to convert grey water to potable, compressor for air conditioning, battery to store electricity, and pressurized bottle of oxygen to repressurize in case of pressure loss. If only one sub-compartment loses pressure, alarm will only sound there, and oxygen will be proved in an attempt to maintain pressure long enough for passengers to evacuate. Once pressure cannot be maintained, pressure tight doors along the corridors will automatically close and seal shut. At the base of every spoke there will be a storage closet with emergency equipment. This will include a plastic sheet airlock. Every pressure door will have a seal built into the door frame around the door, on both sides. The floor will have a section that covers the portion of this seal under the door, and will cover the track where the door slides. Pressure tight doors will be sliding pocket doors. When a pressure door closes, the cover that acts as a walking surface will be pushed up and out of the way by the door itself. That cover will be mounted on a hinge, and can be moved further away from the door to expose the pressure seal around the door. The plastic sheet airlock can be affixed and sealed there. When the airlock is decompressed, it will want to collapse, so cords will be built into the plastic sheet airlock to hold it open, and anchors built into walls to attach those cables. A spacesuit will also be in the compartment with emergency equipment. A crewman can don the spacesuit, and go through that temporary airlock to enter the compartment that has decompressed. If any passengers are still inside, the crewman can go in to rescue them. Safety equipment will include NASA rescue balls, two for each safety equipment closet.
Interior of the ship will have a number of security cameras, each the size of a smartphone camera. These cameras will include optical and infrared. Security cameras will feed to a server in the security office. These cameras will give security ability to determine if anyone is still inside a sealed pressure compartment, so they can tell rescue crewmen how many and where passengers are that require rescue.
Although life support is designed to make each pressure compartment independent, power will be shared throughout the ship. And potable water can be moved from one compartment to the next. And oxygen. Several lines between compartments: power, internet data, potable water, oxygen, concentrated starch/water solution, concentrated urine, misc liquid sewage, powdered feces (moved with pressurized air and an auger). Power and internet data lines will be sealed so no air can flow around the lines if the compartment is sealed. All fluid lines will have two valves to seal it closed, one on each side of the pressure bulkhead. All lines will automatically seal closed when the pressure door is sealed, but the bridge can override.
The ship will have Wifi throughout. However, primary data will be via optical cable. Repeaters and switches will be radiation hardened and protected from EMP. The TV in each cabin will be a smart TV, with optical cable connection. The TV can be used for streaming video from a server on the ship (located in an equipment bay on the bridge). A number of other entertainment services. But the TV can also view streaming video from any of the high definition streaming video cameras on the outside of the ship. If a passenger wants to see what's going on outside, they can do so with the TV. Everything the TV can access will also be available to mobile devices via Wifi: smartphones, tablets, laptops. An ethernet port will be available for each bunk, should a passenger wish a cable connection. That outlet will also have USB-A and USB-C, so mobile devices can charge as well as get high speed data.
If a Solar Proton Event (SPE) should occur, all passengers will be required to move to the habitation ring. The zero-G hub at the centre of the ship will be the reception foyer to receive passengers when a Starship docks. It will also be departure foyer. An elevator in each spoke will connect the ring to the zero-G hub. Aft of the zero-G hub will be a zero-G cargo hold. A hatch will connect the two zero-G compartments. Cargo as well as food for the journey will be stored there. Parts of the cargo hold will be dry storage for packaged food, some will be "walk in" (float in) freezer for frozen food. In case of an SPE, the zero-G hub and zero-G cargo hold will be off-limits. The upper level of the ring will have greenhouses, advanced life support such as processing concentrated urine, two observation rooms, and a Mars simulation room. These will all be off-limits in case of an SPE.
Beside the elevator at the base of each spoke, there will be a stairway to the second level. That stairway will lead to either an observation room, or EVA prep area of the Mars simulation room. Three spokes, one stairway to each upper level room. Reminder: the Mars simulation room will have the same pressure, gas mix, and roughly the same gravity as outside on the surface of Mars. The prep room will have storage for real spacesuits, and a real airlock will connect the prep room to the Mars simulation room. The simulation room will have some air pressure, about 7 millibar, so will be sealed so no passengers can fall overboard. Each stairway will have a pressure door built into the floor of the upper level room. The door will close horizontally, creating a pressure seal between the upper level and lower. The lower end of the stairway will have a more conventional pressure door. The stairway itself will act as an airlock. So if an upper level room becomes compromised, it can be sealed off too.
Is said each pressure compartments will have an equipment box on the roof. That will actually be located on the floor of a second level room, so within a pressurized space. A crewman could open the equipment box for maintenance. It could be a sealed box in the middle of an observation room, or EVA prep room, or greenhouse. Each greenhouse will be accessible by pressure tight door to an observation room or EVA prep room. Door to a greenhouse will be locked, only crewman will have access.
Elevator can stop at the second level, opening to an observation room or EVA prep room. Elevators will be sealed, so they can maintain pressure in case an elevator shaft decompresses. A horizontal pressure door can seal off the elevator shaft between the lower and upper level of the ring, and another between the upper level and spoke. At the zero-G hub, another horizontal pressure door can seal the elevator station from the rest of the shaft. Doors to the elevator station, and doors to enter the elevator car will seal pressure tight whenever closed.
The gym will be the only facility that covers two levels of the ring. The upper level will be open to below in the centre, with a stairway between levels. This will give the appearance of a double height ceiling, and individuals standing on the lower level of the gym will be able to see people in the upper level, and vice versa. Due to this open space, floor area of the upper level will be half that of lower. The gym will not have any windows.
Air circulation fans will be able to blow air down corridors, and each cabin will have a vent that can exchange air with the corridor. Public areas will not have dedicated oxygen recycling: gym, restaurants, kitchens, bar, laundry, security, bridge, sick bay. However, air exchanged down corridors will provide fresh air. The gym will exhaust air directly into greenhouses. Air from greenhouses will be exchanged with public areas and corridors. Primary oxygen recycling will be sized to provide all oxygen required for each cabin, with maximum number of passengers in that cabin. However, if a cabin has fewer passengers then that cabin may not have all chloroplast bags installed. However, the zero-G hub will contain replacement chloroplast bags, stored frozen. Additional chloroplast bags can be thawed and installed. Of course this means plants in greenhouses provide backup oxygen generation. Or fewer chloroplast bags installed.
One of the greenhouses could grow pea plants to 14 days after germination. With equipment to harvest leaves, chop them up, and process to isolate chloroplasts. Additional empty plastic bags will be stored, and the old bags of chloroplasts can be emptied, washed out, and loaded with fresh chloroplasts. The greenhouse will also have the ability to "grow out" the special pea plants to produce seed.
Greenhouses will have transparent ceiling to allow sunlight in, reflected by an outside mirror. Observation rooms, and Mars simulation room will have transparent window walls from waist to ceiling, and transparent ceiling. All windows will be two panes of aluminum oxynitride to provide protection from micrometeoroids. Gap between panes filled with air that is lower pressure than interior, but higher pressure than the vacuum of space. Pressure in that gap will be monitored. If pressure drops, then the outside pane has a leak; if it rises then the inside pane is leaking. The EVA prep room and airlock to the Mars simulation room will not have any windows. Rooms on the second level that do not grow plants, for example areas that process concentrated urine, or vats to convert starch to sugar, will not have transparent ceiling.
Every outside cabin will have one porthole window to the outside. Since aft cabins will face the Sun, that means windows pierce the water wall. On this side, porthole windows will be filled with mineral oil. That mineral oil will provide radiation shielding. Radiation "hot cells" from the 1950s used a windows composed of glass with the intervening space filled with mineral oil. It's excellent radiation shielding, carbon in mineral oil is lighter than oxygen in water, so even better for heavy ion radiation. All windows on the habitation level will have a shutter than can close over the window. The shutter will be mounted on a hinge, on the outside of the hull. This shutter will have thick micrometeoroid shielding, to protect the window should something approach. They'll look very similar to the shutters for the cupola on ISS.
The docking hatch will be on the front of the ship, right at the axis of rotation. This will be larger than the APAS docking hatch for ISS. It will have shock absorbers similar to APAS, but sufficient for the mass of Starship, and the hatch large enough to allow cargo to pass through. I think a circular hatch, but diameter equal to the diagonal of a CBM hatch. An arm outside the ship will hold an adapter. This adapter will provide pressure attachment to the main hatch, and the other side compatible with the NASA Docking System (NDS). That smaller hatch will be compatible with SpaceX Dragon, Boeing Starliner, Orion, or Sierra Nevada Dream Chaser. For safety, a protection cover can be closed over the NDS hatch. Of course there will be an airlock between the docking hatch and the zero-G hub.
I am considering a second airlock. This would be in the side of the zero-G cargo hold. This airlock would be sized to allow an entire Dream Chaser to enter. Since the side will rotate at 3 RPM, the same rate as the rest of the ship, there's a procedure for a Dream Chaser to enter there. The airlock would be depressurized and the outside hatch opened. Dream Chaser would orient itself with aft end toward the hull of the zero-G cargo hold, and approach closely. Once rotation of the ship causes the open hatch to pass Dream Chaser, a tray would extend from the airlock. This tray would be mostly an open frame, but with pads that align with tires of Dream Chaser landing gear. Dream Chaser would extend landing gear before approaching. When the ship rotates so the pads of this tray "smack" the tires of Dream Chaser, a clamp would click grab the landing gear, holding Dream Chaser to the tray. The cargo hold is 9 metres diameter, so the hill will be moving past at 28.28 metres per minute = 0.47124 metres per second. The tray a little faster due to increased radius of rotation. Once vibration stabilizes from capture, the tray will retract into the airlock, bringing Dream Chaser in with it. The outer hatch will close, then the "boat bay" repressurize. Note: at this point Dream Chaser will have it's nose pointed away from centre of rotation, so "down" will be towards the windshield, though centrifugal force that close to centre of rotation will be very slight. An inner pressure hatch will allow crew access from the zero-G cargo hold. The inner hatch will be compatible with NDS so crew could transfer even if the "boat bay" is not pressurized.
The ship will carry one space telescope attached to a cradle on the outside of the cargo hold. Hubble has a 2.4 m (7 ft 10 in) mirror, and the forward tube has an inside diameter the same, but the aft equipment bay is larger. This ship's telescope will have a primary mirror the same diameter, but instruments will be modern and smaller, giving the aft part the same diameter. If modern image sensors are better, the telescope could have a primary mirror slightly smaller than Hubble, but image resolution must be the same. Modern solar arrays, so smaller. And this telescope will have ability to detach, free flying beside the ship during transit, but capturing back into the ship's cradle for planetary orbital insertion.
The ship will also have a separate free-flying navigation drone. This drone will have star-sight telescopes for celestial navigation, high resolution digital gyros for inertial navigation, and ability to measure distance and relative position from the ship very precisely. This will be attached to its own cradle on the outside of the zero-G cargo hold. And the ship will carry a number of inspection drones. These inspection drones will each have a camera about the size of a smartphone camera, but very high resolution. Outside of inspection drones covered in soft material (rubber? styrofoam?) so it won't do any damage if it bumps into the ship. And the inspection drones will use cold gas thrusters. Total size of inspection drones about that of a softball. Inspection drones will be stored in a small bay that can pressurize, allowing access to drones by crew from inside the ship. The navigation drone will have solar arrays, but inspection dones won't. All drones and the space telescope can recharge batteries from the Ship when docked, and refill propellant tanks.
The main docking hatch for SpaceX Starship will have fluid transfer quick disconnect couplings outside the docking hatch, integrated with the docking mechanism. The Russian docking hatch on ISS has such a fluid transfer couplings; it can transfer water, oxygen, and propellant from a Progress cargo ship. Soyuz spacecraft dock to the same hatch, but just don't have fluid transfer couplings. The Large Ship will have couplings to accept water, oxygen, nitrogen, propellant for RCS thrusters, and propellant for mid-course correction thrusters.
There will be RCS thruster quads on the outside of the habitation ring. With propellant tanks located outside the pressure hull, adjacent to each thruster quad. Propellant tanks outside the main airlock, close to the docking hatch. Propellant feed lines outside the pressure hull will transfer propellant from those first tanks, along the outside of the zero-G hub to spokes, down spokes to the ring, and outside the pressure hull to propellant tanks at each thruster quad. Propellant transfer lines will also extend along the circumference of the hull to allow transfer of propellant between thruster quads. Propellant lines and tanks will have micrometeoroid shielding.
The ship will take 6 months from Earth to Mars. If something should go wrong, this is a free return trajectory to return to Earth. "The Case For Mars", 1996 soft-cover edition, page 84, lists preferred trajectory. Earth-Mars will take 6 months, but return will take 18 months, so total flight time 2 years. The ship will have food and life support supplies for 6 months. How do you feed 1,000 passengers and 60 crew for that time? The ship will be very well sealed, so very little air leakage, hopefully none. The life support system on ISS must dump toxic gasses in space: CO2 and methane. Some oxygen and water could be lost with those gasses. The Sabatier Reactor consumes half of CO2 scrubbed from cabin air, but the rest is dumped. Various proposals have been made to recover some oxygen from that CO2, all of which produce various other toxic gasses. Whenever dumping anything in space, there's the risk some oxygen or water will be lost. Life support on the Large Ship is based on chloroplasts, so byproduct is starch. Feces are vacuum desiccated then ground to a powder; that powder is stored in a container attached to the outside of the ship. Proposed location: near the docking hatch, so containers can be removed for transport down to Mars. The containers will have vacuum, so air must be recovered from powdered feces. That is a potential for air loss, but very little. Expect negligible atmosphere loss during transit.
Oxygen is recycled. Water is recycled. Pressure is maintained. Air conditioning is run by electricity, so temperature is maintained as long as there's power. Solar panels for electrical power generation, so electricity as long as the Sun shines. Plants in the greenhouse powered by direct sunlight. Chloroplasts powered by sunlight as well, so minimal power requirement for oxygen recycling. Salt, banking soda, and yeast nutrient are extracted from human urine, so they're recycled. Chloroplast oxygen generators produce starch, so that will never run out. A vat will grow a specific species of mould using water and starch, producing amylase. Another vat will convert starch to sugar using amylase, so that will never run out. Another vat will produce microbial oil, equivalent to vegetable oil, using water and sugar and yeast nutrient. That means cooking oil will never run out. Processed human urine will also produce sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide, when added to microbial oil that makes liquid soap. So hand soap will never run out. Liquid soap with a milder pH is shampoo, so shampoo for showers will never run out. Another formulation for laundry soap, and another for dishwasher soap. Waste soap will be added to misc liquid sewage, which is decomposed to fertilizer for hydroponics. So what's left? All passengers need is food.
Fresh salad is grown in greenhouses. If we do develop a microbe that can produce wheat protein, that will be mixed with starch from chloroplasts to make all-purpose flour. Synthetic, but close enough. We can bake bread on the ship. Another microbe can make different wheat protein, when mixed with starch will make semolina flour. Semolina makes pasta. Microbial oil can be processed to make margarine. Some of the oil will have hydrogen bubbled over a platinum catalyst to partially hydrogenate. Regular oil mixed with partially hydrogenated oil will be more firm. Add salt and lemon juice and colour to make margarine. For colour, I suggest turmeric. It's bright, and the plant can be grown in a pot in one of the observation rooms. It makes a pretty decorative plant. We can also make pancakes, waffles, and syrup. Pancake syrup is 2 cups golden yellow sugar (aka light brown sugar), packed, add 1 teaspoon imitation maple extract, and 1 cup boiling water. Yellow sugar is made with white sugar and molasses. So all we need to make syrup is molasses and imitation maple extract. I could explain how to make that extract, but it's best made on Mars (or Earth) rather than the ship. Simple syrup is just white sugar in hot water.
Last resort: dissolve starch in water, cook in a microwave oven to breakup starch. Add a pinch of yeast nutrient, bread yeast, and let ferment for 3 days at room temperature. Then cook again in a microwave oven. Result has consistency of pudding, white and translucent, with the flavour and aroma of freshly baked bread. The yeast adds a little protein, lipids, and all the B vitamins except B12.
For those who like the bar, vodka is just sugar, water, yeast nutrient, and distiller's yeast. Ferment for 5-10 days (depending on temperature) then distill. Vodka is distilled to 60% to 70%, then diluted with clean water. So vodka will never run out. Gin is made with vodka, juniper berries, and various botanicals. We can grow those in pots in one of the observation rooms. There won't be a lot of gin, juniper plants won't produce berries very often, perhaps with an expert gardener once every 6 months. But some.
We can grow dwarf orange trees and dwarf lemon trees in pots in the other observation room. There are current varieties that produce full-size fruit, but trees only grow ~8 feet tall plus the height of the pot.
::Edit:: I didn't mentioned the mini-magnetosphere. Based on work by University of Washington. Expected to reduce radiation to 1/3 that of interplanetary space. That would reduce radiation to equal that of ISS. Because ISS is in Low Earth Orbit so protected by Earth's magnetosphere. However, not the zero-G hub is at the axis of rotation. During a Solar Proton Event, the mini-magnetosphere would concentrate radiation at the magnetic poles, which would be aligned with the ships rotation axis. So the engine section at the aft end and the zero-G hub at the forward end would exposed to concentrated radiation. Another reason the the zero-G hub must be evacuated during an SPE.

RobertDyck · 2022-03-13 17:50:02

I mentioned pancake syrup is made with imitation maple extract. That can be made with fenugreek seeds, gently warm in a frying pan, but don't toast them. Crush, add to vodka, and let sit for 3 months. Then filter out the seeds. Add vanilla extract, and there you go.

To make vanilla extract, the easiest method is start with real vanilla bean. Chop into small pieces, add to vodka, and let sit for 3 months. Filter out the pieces.

Fenugreek is an herb, annual, height 2 feet, spread 5-6 inches, spacing 8-18 inches. Temperature 50-90°F. Time from planting to harvest: 3-5 months.
Gardener's Path: How to Grow Fenugreek

Vanilla is a vine, its flower is an orchid. Needs to be hand pollinated. It's natural pollinator is a bee that's nearly extinct. Takes 3-5 years to bloom. Ready to harvest 8-9 months after pollination. Vanilla vine really doesn't like growing next to beans or peas. Ideal temperature 60-70°F at night, 80-95°F during the day.
Morning Chores: Growing Vanilla: How to Plant, Grow, and Harvest Vanilla Beans Successfully
Plant Instructions: How to Grow Vanilla Beans: Vanilla Bean Plant Info

SpaceNut · 2022-03-13 19:19:58

The post reminds me that we are working a long term greenhouse on the surface of which the journey would not have such a length of season to work with.
That said the diet on mars would be capable of many more foods that we could not have but from processed dried goods brought from earth going to mars and back.

tahanson43206 · 2022-03-13 20:33:18

For RobertDyck ...

Here is a link to the article that David Stuart pointed out:

https://cosmiclog.com/

The image of that starship design is a remarkable ringer for Large Ship

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-03-13 21:01:50

220309-lastexit4.jpg?resize=1200%2C601&ssl=1

Artist concept of a ship capable of a 5,000 year journey...

That leaves the normal nuclear power out of question as we have yet to have anything last more than 50 years....

RobertDyck · 2022-03-19 15:34:59

RobertDyck wrote:

Price comparison: British Airways, 777-200 4-class layout
Economy - pitch 31", width 17.5" = area 542.5
Premium Economy - pitch 38", width 18.5" = area 703
Business - pitch 72", width 20" = area 1440
First - pitch 78", width 22" = area 1716
British Airways, A350-1000
Economy - pitch 31", width 17.6" = area 545.6
Premium Economy - pitch 38", width 18.7" = area 710.6
First - pitch 79", width 27" (closed suite) = area 2133
Pitch is distance from a given point on a seat to the same point on a seat in the next row. Area is square inches.
Ticket price directly from British Airways website, as of today. Flight from London to New York, one way, one person, March 12 (2 weeks from now), Boeing 777.
Economy £1,781 = 3.283 / sq.in.
Premium Economy £2,023 = 2.877667 / sq.in.
Business £7,124 = 4.947 / sq.in.
First £9,509 = 5.54 / sq.in.
For our ship, I suggested a constant price per cabin regardless of furniture or how many passengers. Premium cabins would be based on floor area. Should we increase the price of premium cabins? The only perk I suggested for premium cabins is meals in fine dining room and booze at the bar would be free (included), while they would cost for other passengers.
::Edit:: I should be consistent. I should use the word "luxury" because one of the cabin layouts is called "Premium".

I had suggested a ticket price of $500,000 US dollars for a bunk in an economy cabin, or $2.5 million for a whole standard cabin regardless of furniture. I had suggested we keep the price per floor area the same for luxury cabins. Based on this, should we increase the price for luxury cabins? Remember, for standard cabins, all meals at buffet dining rooms are free, but meals at fine dining cost. And a cash bar. For luxury cabins, meals at fine dining are free as well as booze. So should we increase the price per floor area by 50%? I had originally suggested a club cabin would cost $5 million, premium 1-bedroom suite $10 million, Owner's suite $20 million, and Royal suite $40 million. We could increase those by 50%.

I also said price would drop once we have a settlement on Mars so all parts for repairs and maintenance come from Mars. And food from greenhouses on Mars. And propellant from space: a carbonaceous chondrite asteroid, or moon of Mars, or Mars itself. So a bunk would cost $100,000, a standard cabin $500,000 regardless how furniture is configured or how many passengers.

I raise this again because Tom keeps creating multiple threads where he argues that standard cabins are too small. Economy cabin configuration of a standard cabin is based on 3rd class cabins from the age of steam ships. I included an image of a 3rd class cabin from the Titanic museum. Space per person is the same. In one thread, Tom used a hard-top camper trailer as an example, complete with propane stove. These are ship cabins, not campers. There won't be a kitchen in any cabin. The ship has commercial kitchens supplying dining rooms. "Studio single" configuration of a standard cabin could have a coffee maker, like those in a hotel room. But this is a ship's cabin, not an apartment.

RobertDyck · 2022-03-19 15:48:06

C-SPAN: Pilgrim Story and Mayflower II Tour

Plimoth Patuxet deputy executive director Richard Pickering told the story of the Pilgrims' Atlantic crossing in 1620 from Plymouth, England to Plymouth, Massachusetts and the origins of the Mayflower Compact. On Mayflower II, a reproduction of the original ship, Mr. Pickering and Plimoth Patuxet’s maritime preservation director Whit Perry described the living conditions on the Mayflower for the Pilgrims and crew.

Click link above or image below...

kbd512 · 2022-03-19 20:34:41

SpaceNut,

We have a viable method for repairing metal damaged by radiation:

Self-healing of damage inside metals triggered by electropulsing stimuli

Apart from radiation, the most reactors are damaged through thermal cycling.

If the reactor is of the aqueous-homogeneous variety, then the damage incurred from thermal cycling can be eliminated through continuous operation. The fissile inventory inside an AHR core is fairly low, at any given time, and the neutron poisons can be continuously extracted.

If we can repair metal without fully melting it and keep the lights on at all times, then there's no real reason why a ship can't be operated indefinitely.

The much greater issues are navigation, powerful GCR / particle shielding, and 100% recycling of all consumables.

U233 provides 79,420,000MJ/kg or 22,061MWh/kg. If the plant is 65% efficient, then you get 14,339.7MWh/kg.

If the onboard power supply is 100MW, then each kilo of fuel supplies 5.974875 days of power.

5,000 years is 1,826,250 Earth standard days, so 305,655kg of fuel.

Uranium is about 19,100kg/m^3, so that's about 16m^3 of fuel.

If the 100MW reactor design was based upon the KEMA test reactor, then the core volume would only be 1.83m^3 if reactor power output scaled linearly with core volume (it doesn't). The KEMA reactor used a mixture of 14% HEU (90% enriched) UO2 and 86% ThO2. We could simply send pure U233 so we would not be concerned with conversion of Th232 into U233 in-transit, but taking Thorium would have the advantage of being storable without regard to packing shape and dimensions. In other words, Th232 could be stored indefinitely without worrying about the fuel supply accidentally "going critical" outside of the reactor vessel. That would increase the total mass required, but a much smaller quantity of pure U233 is required, with the much larger quantity of Th232 transmuted into U233 over time, and the storage requirements for Th232 are then reduced to a simple steel tank loaded with ThO2 powder. Some U233 would still have to be stored in special containers outside of the reactor vessel, but then those containers could be much smaller / lighter. The Th232 could also be transported both to / from and around the ship without special equipment or enhanced security.

RobertDyck · 2022-03-21 02:02:03

In today's Zoom session, we talked about emergency procedures. Integrating a rescue ball with each bunk, so everyone has something they can jump into in case of decompression. A light weight ball stored in a container integrated with the bunk. We could use an "oxygen candle" similar to oxygen generators for military safety gear and for oxygen masks for commercial jet airliners, or use potassium superoxide. The advantage to KO2 is it absorbs CO2 and generates oxygen in one step. Used by Soyuz spacecraft as primary life support. Would require a mask like NASA's rescue ball aka personal rescue enclosure.

Question: would we need a full face mask like the NASA rescue ball, or just a breathing mask? Would the breathing system require 7 hours like an Apollo spacesuit, or would 4 hours be enough? Position the KO2 canister directly on the mask, no hoses.

The spacesuit used by rescue workers would also use KO2. Spacesuits for use inside the spacecraft for rescue would not have a cooling system, just breathing. The KO2 canister would be about 1.3 litres and thin metal since the canister is not pressurized any more than the suit. For safety we may want to use steel instead of aluminum alloy, because when KO2 reacts with water it can get very hot. Because it's an oxygen generator, we would use stainless steel. It doesn't need extreme strength; just enough to hold spacesuit pressure, and hold the weight of the KO2.
We have a thread: KO2 oxygen for spacesuits

I mentioned one portable airlock in a locker at the base of each spoke. Each locker will hold emergency equipment including 2 intra-vehicle spacesuits. Elastic spacesuits work great for going outside on the surface of Mars, but are tight so take some time to put on. An intra-vehicle spacesuit may look more like a SpaceX spacesuit, or Boeing's suit for Starliner.

tahanson43206 · 2022-03-21 08:11:36

For RobertDyck ....

With your permission, and hopefully with your support, ** this ** topic is a good place to thrash out decisions regarding details of Large Ship (Prime).

I have introduced a Bill of Material topic, based upon the (surprising to me for sure!) achievement of a ** real live decision ** in Sunday's Zoom.

I have forgotten details of the materials recommended, the name of the design recommended, and probably other aspects of the discussion.

** My ** memory is of no consequence, because we have NewMars database to preserve decisions as they are made.

Please encourage all who are willing (and hopefully able) to assist in the process.

Specifically, I am hoping for assistance with details of:

1) width of the panels for welding on orbit
2) Nature of the material --- there appear to be lots of choices
3) Configuration of material --- there is a particular design that was shown, but I didn't memorize the name
4) Welding method ... two methods were discussed as of greatest interest for the project ... I have no way of knowing which is best for ** this ** application.

(th)

kbd512 · 2022-03-21 11:51:24

If each berthing compartment has its own life support equipment, then we should have a way to hook up the personal rescue enclosure's external oxygen hose directly to that compartment's life support systems, so that instead of spewing O2 out into space, it only provides O2 to the passengers inside their rescue balls who are trapped inside their berthing compartment.

The standalone / self-contained KO2 candle is then supplemented by O2 for rescue enclosure pressurization and CO2 scrubbing using a much more powerful system that does not need to be hand-portable. If you still have electrical power to the berthing compartment after a disaster, then that provides more time for specially-trained personnel in space suits to effect a rescue operation.

The first person to notice a fire or depressurization event immediately activates their KO2 candle, activates an alarm on their personal communicator (Apple iWatch, basically) to notify ship's company of the emergency, helps their spouse and children or friends to don their breathing equipment, the rescue enclosures are removed from their storage canisters, connected to that compartment's life support equipment, everyone seals themselves into their rescue enclosures as the enclosures are inflated, and then they wait for rescue. A fire would normally dictate complete evacuation of affected compartment(s), whereas depressurization likely requires shelter-in-place since you have no way of knowing if the space you would evacuate into was also compromised (you need time you don't have to assess where to go).

Upon notification of the emergency, ship's company will sound general quarters. All personnel will report to their damage control (DC) locker or duty station (CO / OPSO / COMMO report to the bridge, EO to engineering, etc), all air tight doors and hatches are dogged down to prevent further loss of atmosphere to space or spread of fire. The fire / rescue teams will suit up and rig a portable airlock to the nearest hatch(es) in affected compartments. The repair crew will survey the damage and report shipboard systems casualties to their DC locker officer (DCO). The DCO will direct rescue and repair crews to effect rescues or repairs and have his or her communications assistant report damage to the Engineering Officer (EO) and/or Captain (CO). The XO normally makes his or her way to the affected area, confers with the DCOs, and then issues any required orders on behalf of the DCOs, such as telling the other DCOs to supply additional personnel or equipment. Direct requests to other DCOs can also be made, but the XO is there to prioritize rescues or repairs to ensure that the greatest threat(s) to the ship are dealt with first.

Each DCO is assigned someone who communicates on his or her behalf to the rest of the ship so that he or she can focus on issuing orders related to rescue and repair activities. A type of short-hand log related to damages, times that personnel were ordered to light off KO2 candles (so the DCO knows when someone's Oxygen is about to run out and can order a replacement to assume the duties of the person whose O2 is depleted), and orders from the Captain are all kept by that DCO using laminated maps of their assigned spaces with a grease pencil or dry erase marker. I've seen a number of junior officers fail at this task, normally brand new Ensigns or Lieutenants, so the CO or EO may replace them with someone else who can lead effectively and remember the fire hose of information directed at them, typically a Chief Petty Officer but sometimes someone as junior as a Third Class Petty Officer if that person really knows their stuff.

A Corpsman is normally assigned to each DC to provide first aid for casualties. During drills, that man or woman is directed to provide first aid training to the rest of the personnel assigned to each locker. Detailed instructions are provided for quickly assessing injured personnel (knowing your ABCs), especially related to how to move them onto a stretcher to avoid further injury. Other topics taught include recognizing poisoning from the various chemicals used on the ship, compression sickness in our case, personal hygiene, diet / nutrition, avoidance of alcoholism (many sailors are functional drunks), and preventing injuries when lifting heavy objects (nearly everything is hand-carried on a ship). They work for the ship's Medical Officer, but also work with the ship's Safety Officer to identify practices likely to lead to casualties.

Each repair locker contains the following:

* wind-up powered radio for communicating with engineering, the bridge, and other DC lockers; all personnel already have a personal wireless radio in the form of their wristwatch or cell phone, but this is less reliable than a purpose-built and radiation-resistant device
* firefighting and pressure suits to fight fires and effect rescues of personnel trapped in depressurized compartments
* hoses / nozzles / wrenches for fighting fires
* electric submersible pumps in case a compartment is accidentally flooded with water (necessary for de-watering on a ship carrying many tons of water)
* portable electric generator (Lithium-ion "battery backpack" that's easily moved around the ship by a single person, similar to what Husqvarna developed to power their electric outdoor tools)
* wrecking tools (knives, shears, axe, crowbars or pinch bars for prying hatches open)
* metal repair tools (probably a dremel sander and a laser cutter / welder in our case)
* pipe patching equipment (plugs, PTFE tape, kevlar twine to secure the rubber over a pipe, clamps, pipe cutters, etc)
* equipment for repairing electrical wiring and electrical devices such as the life support equipment (rubber gloves, wire cutters / insulation strippers, fuse pullers, multimeter, etc)
* helmets and flashlights for all personnel (light can be mounted to their helmet for hands-free operation)
* fairly comprehensive medical kit with tourniquets, splints, stretchers, defibrillator, etc (drugs like Morphine are stored in medical or carried by the Corpsman to prevent abuse)

All that stuff easily fits inside a walk-in closet-sized space for 25 people. Each DC locker is assigned someone who cleans and cares for the equipment, recharges batteries, and periodically tests the equipment. The ship would have around 40 DC lockers, so 40 Corpsman, 40 DCOs, 40 radio operators / DCO assistants, 5 to 6 people per fire / rescue team (the biggest and strongest men and women in the locker), 2 pipe patchers / general repair technicians (I primarily did this job and was a backup hose team member on the ships I served on, and worked with the assigned electrician), 2 electricians, and the remainder are assigned to provide relief or to babysit life support equipment (these people normally stand single file next to the DC locker and are periodically called upon by the DCO to assist those with preassigned tasks).

A DCO can just as easily be a passenger with excellent organizational skills and multi-tasking capabilities. Staying in that position is dependent upon never missing an order from above and relaying all orders accurately. The EO and XO continuously evaluate these people by watching them during general quarters drills. The important point to remember is that only the Corpsman and electricians have inflexible duty assignments. Everyone else, to include the DCO, can and will be replaced with someone new who learned on-the-job, at any moment. Hose team assignments are semi-fixed due to their additional training requirements, but even those people are periodically cycled in-and-out. Everything you do on a hose team comes with an inflexible time limit. If you take 1 second longer than allocated to complete an assigned task, they will replace you with someone else. For example, we had exactly 45 seconds to don all firefighting equipment.

Normally an independent (from the entire command) evaluator will assess the ship's overall damage control capabilities and then sign off on allowing that crew to execute missions (safe passage to Mars, in this case) for a specified period of time (6 months, roughly). If standards are met, then the Admiral assigned to a fleet will issue sailing orders to assigned ships. The evaluation team makes training recommendations to the command staff CO / XO / OPSO / COMMO / EO, and holds an "all-hands" debriefing after witnessing general quarters drills. They come aboard with a small cadre of subject matter experts who will observe general quarters drills for realism, adherence to established time limits for safety critical tasks like donning firefighting equipment, as well as the quality of the work done (pipe patching, electrical repair, medical treatment and casualty evacuation, etc).

RobertDyck · 2022-03-21 20:32:49

I agreed to make the composite partition walls pressure tight, for walls between cabins within a pressure compartment. The reason is we can use a polymer film for that. Tflon FEP film at 1 mil thickness has a bursting strength of 11 psi. At 2 mil thickness, it's twice that. With nominal cabin pressure of 7.35 psi, 2 mil thick film provides a significant safety margin. Over the width of a wall you also have to worry about tensile strength, because force for the entire width of the wall is carried by the film. However, the film will be contained with fabric, and the wall will have studs within the wall, to stress will be transfered to the fabric, and tensile stress is only for the gap between studs. We could discuss details of construction of the composite wall, but it must be thin (not 4" thick), strong enough to withstand use with people using the cabin, strong enough to mount upper bunks to the wall, and sound insulation.

For a greenhouse I have recommended PCTFE film, because its embrittlement temperature is colder than the coldest location on Mars, and it's highly gas impermeable. It's the most impermeable to moisture of any polymer known to man. It's not the most impermeable to oxygen, but it is highly impermeable, and that can be enhanced by clogging pores of the polymer by applying a thin metal layer, ie aluminize. Telfon FEP is not as gas impermeable, but this is for emergency use, not continuous use. Over a period of hours or days, it's sufficiently gas impermeable. Continuous service temperature for PCTFE is -240°C to +132°C, for Teflon FEP it's -240 to +205°C (-400 to +400°F). And FEP can handle intermittent temperature to +260°C (500°F). However, temperatures for LEO are -150°C to +120°C (-250 to +250°F), and the coldest temperature on the south pole of Mars in winter is -140°C.

https://www.teflon.com/en/-/media/files … bbba7383a6

However, realize life support is within the cabin. If a cabin is decompressed, so will the life support equipment. The oxygen generator is a plastic bag filled with sterile water and chloroplasts. The plastic must be transparent to light, and a semipermeable membrane that will allow oxygen to pass. That's how oxygen gets out. An aquarium pump will circulate water within the bag, and a fan will blow cabin air across the outside of the bag. Multiple bags per cabin, sized one bag per adult passenger. That means when the cabin decompresses, the bags will burst open. They will be damaged and cease functioning. So don't expect to be able to connect a rescue ball.

I described the pressure door across the corridor as a metal pocket door. The floor track for the door will be protected by a walking surface that covers the track. The walking surface over the door track will be on a hinge; when the door closes, the door itself will push the walking surface up out of the way. The air tight seal cannot be damaged by walking on it. And we can't have a raised lip like some navy ships. A seal will surround the door jam on all sides, including below the door track. This additional seal is to attach a portable air lock. It also must not be damaged.

However, cabin doors are simple hinged doors, and light weight. The door will swing into the cabin, with hinge on the opposite side to the washroom. To make cabin doors able to seal pressure tight, a mechanism of some sort must be able to close the door. And the door must be able to be sealed on all 4 sides. The door must be able to handle pressure loss on either side of the door, so that implies some sort of clamp mechanism to hold the door tight against the rubber seal of the door jam. Here in Canada, exterior doors have a threshold plate. This is a plate designed to walk on, that the bottom of the door presses against. This provides a weather seal around all 4 sides. Interior doors don't have that. If you want individual cabins to be able to be sealed, every cabin door will require a threshold plate, and it will require a pressure tight rubber seal, not just weather stripping.

RobertDyck · 2022-03-21 21:03:23

Porthole windows for cabins will have a shutter on a swing arm that can cover the window, like the cupola on ISS. The shutters will have micrometeoroid shielding, like the cupola. The windows on the forward side will have 2 panes of ALON. The gap will have a pressure lower than cabin pressure, but higher than vacuum. A pressure transducer will monitor this pressure. If the pressure drops, that means there's a leak to the outside. If the pressure rises, there's a leak to the inside.

Porthole windows for cabins on the aft side (sunward side) will have 2 panes, the gap will be filled with mineral oil. That provides radiation shielding. Depth of mineral oil will be the same as the water wall. Pressure of the mineral oil will also be monitored.

Most importantly, every cabin will have a pressure transducer to monitor pressure. If pressure drops slowly, the bridge will be notified. If pressure drops suddenly, the alarm will be activated automatically.

As mentioned in our Zoom call, the alarm will be both audible and a flashing light. Like 21st century fire alarms. I believe the strobe light for fire alarms is for people who are deaf, however if pressure drops too much there won't be air to conduct sound. So the strobe light will be imperative. Yes, there will be lights that sequence to provide what appears to be moving lights toward the exit. Follow the lights to evacuate the compromised compartment, to get to a safe one.

There are lots of LED strips available today. Why can't I find a simple animated GIF showing a monochrome LED moving in one direction?

RobertDyck · 2022-03-21 21:57:43

Several current smartphones have the ability to monitor heart rate and blood oxygen. It would be nice to monitor as much as possible, but those are the critical ones anyway. iWatch series 1-3 has an optical sensor to monitor heart rate. Series 4 and later has an electrical sensor for ECG: ElectroCardioGram. German word for cardio starts with 'K' so TV shows call it EKG. Real doctors who speak English call it ECG. iWatch series 6 and later have a blood oxygen sensor. iWatch does not measure body temperature. Fitbit does measure skin temperature as well as blood oxygen and ECG; it also measures stress through an electrodermal scan. There's also Garmin Forerunner, Samsung Galaxy Watch4, TicWatch Pro Series, and others. As time goes on, more smartwatches will be able to do this. Rather than forcing passengers to use one watch, let them pick any watch compatible with the ship's monitoring app. The ship's doctor will be able to monitor passengers from sickbay. And there should be some way to locate a smartwatch or smartphone within the ship, so we can locate passengers.

Of course the storage container that holds rescue balls will have a simple sensor that can tell the ship's computer when one has been removed. We could add oxygen and CO2 sensors to the intake and outlet of the KO2, so a simple microcontroller can estimate rate of oxygen use and remaining time. Lots of commercial chips have built-in wifi. This would identify the unit by serial#, only respond when activated so it doesn't consume power while in storage, and this would give time remaining. It should also have ability to tell the ship's computer where it is within the ship. Could a low power signal use the same signals as GPS? Within the ship it would require a custom app.

RobertDyck · 2022-03-21 22:51:44

kbd512 listed equipment for each repair locker. That looks good, but realize our ship will have 3 repair lockers in the habitat ring: one at the base of each spoke. kbd512 is used to being a crew member on a Nimitz class aircraft carrier, with a ship's complement of 5,000 to 5,200 including air wing. This ship will have 60 to 66 crew plus about 1,000 passengers. And this is a passenger vessel, not a combat ship. Chance of damage is much lower. Space is dangerous, but not as dangerous as combat. And an aircraft carrier has a lot of aircraft; a Nimitz has a displacement of 101,600–106,300 metric tonnes (111,995 to 117,176 short tons), our ship is much smaller. So number of crewmen assigned, and number of lockers will be smaller.

kbd512 · 2022-03-22 03:26:04

Robert,

Don't mount the bunks to a paper thin plastic pressure wall. Mount it to the much stronger top and bottom steel pressure hull instead, and use a shock mount to transfer the load.

I still fail to see the purpose of the cupola windows on something rotating at 3rpm, except for inducing vertigo. Your tangential velocity is something like 26mph. Have someone else drive your car at 26mph, open the door slightly and stare at the ground, and then realize that that's what the outside view will look like as it's whizzing by. It's creating a weak point and another engineering headache, but that's it.

Combat is not required for repair and rescue equipment to be useful. Since the end of WWII, better than half the time serious shipboard casualties occurred in the total absence of enemy action. The chance of a fire is not why you have fire extinguishers all over the place aboard a ship. The chance of fire is obviously quite low, lower still if you consider where fires are most likely to occur, yet chance has nothing to do with the severity of the outcome without appropriate equipment and training.

I'm talking about using miniature or lightweight versions of the equipment we used (a foam and plastic cyclist style helmet vs a kevlar or steel infantry helmet, a pump the size of a large fish tank pump for dewatering vs the 90 pound industrial pumps we used, small headlamps vs 15 pound lanterns, etc), spread throughout the ship so that no matter where you go there is some equipment nearby that's ready for use.

If someone breaks their ankle do you really want to potentially have to walk 1.5 football fields to get that person a stretcher and bring it back to them? Do you understand how many hatches you'll be walking through and how much time it will take if you have to open and close all of them?

The circumference of the habitation ring on your ship is about as long as the first ship I served aboard, USS LCC-19 Blue Ridge. That ship normally had about 850 crew members, up to 1,400 or so including 7th Fleet Staff. It's a communications ship, not intended for combat, but we had more than three damage control lockers.

The idea that anyone aboard a ship tens of millions of miles from Earth will ever be a passive observer is ludicrous. If that's the kind of ship ride you wanted to take, then you could've spent a lot less money to do that in a sunny tropical paradise in the Caribbean. If I understand this cruise ship idea correctly, these passengers are going on a 6 month long drunk while 1 in 15 do real work, and then they will spend the rest of their natural lives in an environment that's almost as dangerous in the exact same ways... I'm calling BS on that.

RobertDyck · 2022-03-22 05:35:25

Chance of a fire in a metal ship is not great. It takes something extreme to set solid steel on fire. I designed a ship separated into pressure compartments for safety. Ships at sea have water tight compartments to prevent sinking. Passenger ships do *NOT* make absolutely every cabin a separate water tight compartment. Compartments are large chunks of the ship. If pandering to an extreme causes furniture to not work, then go back to the original.

But that may not be necessary. Partition walls will not be 4" wide, I'm thinking 5cm (2") wide. Cubicle partition walls are 3" wide, and desk surface is mounted to the partition wall. With sheet steel wall studs embedded within the wall, it should support bunks. And provide sufficient strength and stiffness that passengers leaning against the wall don't cause the wall to move or bow into the next cabin. Acoustic insulation for office cubicle partitions is typically fabric over cardboard with steel frames. Using premium materials (and something non-flammable) could we reduce width? Safe'n'Sound is a brand of sound proof insulation. It comes in 3" and 6" standard thickness. Wooden 2x4 wall studs used to be 2"x4", in the 1920s they were reduced to 1¾"x3¾", and in the 1960s they were reduced again to 1½"x3½". So 3" thick insulation is intended for the 3½" wall cavity. (Why isn't it 3½"?) Sheet steel wall studs are also 1½"x3½" to be compliant with standard dimensions. If we have to use 3" thick walls, that's not a hardship. Safe'n'Sound brand insulation is a stone wool aka mineral wool, manufactured by the Rockwool corporation. It's made by melting stone, extruding as a fibre, formed into a wool with a binder. It's passive fire protection. Facing can be something non-flammable. Traditional drywall for houses is gypsum faced with paper, but Georgia Pacific manufactures drywall faced with fibreglass felt. Various non-flammable materials are available.
Rockwool product: Safe'n'Sound
Composite cabin: Maritime Components - different manufacturer than previously posted. This one uses an "innovative glass core" with fire protection sheet layer and front sheet layer.

You said the circumference of the ship is about the same as the first ship you served on. Did that ship have only one deck? I doubt it. This ship has a second deck, but that second deck is not full width. This ship is 236.87 metres (777 feet 2 inches) circumference, 19 metres (62' 4") wide, but one deck. The gym has a 2nd deck, there are 2 observation rooms, one Mars simulation room, but greenhouses are only 8 metres (26' 3") wide. An Arleigh Burke-class destroyer (flight III) is 510 ft (160 m) long, beam 66 ft (20 m), but draft is 30.5 ft (9.3 m). Then add superstructure.

In space the tangential velocity is irrelevant. What you see out the window is stars, multiple light-years away. There isn't anything adjacent to the hull. What's the purpose of windows of a passenger ship, when the only view is ocean? The purpose is so you don't feel trapped in a tin can.

kbd512 · 2022-03-22 07:34:17

Robert,

Setting the steel on fire was never something we ever worried about. The paint, insulation, electrical lines, and other equipment were another story entirely. The chance of anything bad happening is quite low. No Nimitz class aircraft carrier has ever had a hole in its hull, so that means we can remove the watertight hatches to save weight and make it easier to get around the ship. After all, the probability up to this point has been zero, so the tax payers could save money and the crew could be made more comfortable without all those watertight doors in their way.

Go do a VR simulation so you can see what you're proposing regarding the portholes with your own eyes. If you still feel the same way afterwards, then keep them in the design.

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