Rain Energy - the next big leap forward?

louis · 2022-02-20 19:44:46

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee3WW0OnBL0

Seems like collection of rain energy (through triboelectricity rather than hydropower) is an important breakthrough.

Reported it could produce perhaps one third of what solar power produces.

Might be very appropriate for some countries and regions with high rainfall and might counter balance solar power deficits.

Not much use on Mars yet!

SpaceNut · 2022-02-20 20:39:28

I have seen several of these small rain power systems that run off from collected water run off from a roof into a gutter. They can for a short span of time make 500 watts at the most as its all about mass and length of downward movement. Its this potential of energy that is at the roof level that makes the small turbine move until all the water is gone. The power generators are usually home made pelton spoon shaped surfaces fashion around a shaft shaped wheel.

here is another of the rain gutter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6oNxckjEiE

https://www.popsci.com/electricity-gene … invention/

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-20 20:51:13

For Louis and SpaceNut re new topic ....

At first, I was surprised at the thought of (possibly) harnessing rainfall to make power, but (upon reflection) i realized that rainfall is constant in some locations on Earth, and it is reliably abundant during monsoon season in others, so that even a 500 watt generator would be capable of operation for 24 hours a day for substantial periods of time.

For SpaceNut ... thanks for the additional links!

(th)

Calliban · 2022-02-20 23:25:14

Yeah. Up to 50W/m2. That would be OK if it were all the time, or even a large part of the time. But you only get that 50W/m2 during heavy rain. What percentage of the time does that happen? Actually not that much. We like to moan about the weather here in blighty, but we don't get heavy rain as often as we like to pretend. I noted that this new device uses indium foil as well. I have to wonder, what does this do that a PV panel does not? We get sunlight at some intensity every day. We might wait a week or more for rain. Longer in summer. I don't like to be negative, but this sounds like something you hear about once and then never again. A scientific curiosity. Maybe a few niche applications exist?

There is untapped potential for micro-hydro in most countries. But rain water falling on any collection device has pitiful power density. Streams and rivers collect water from a broad water shed, many times larger than the river itself. I have wondered on occasion, if we could exploit differences in ground water levels to generate power. That really would be small scale generation (a few tens of watts). But it could be built in a lot of places and sometimes, a few tens of Watts may be enough. You will never power a national grid with power levels like that. But maybe it would be useful for some off grid applications.

Micro pumped storage has options as well. 1 tonne of water, raised by 10m, stores 98KJ (27Wh) of potential energy. Raise it by 100m, and energy density is a more respectable 0.27kWh/tonne. This is low energy density compared to a battery, but the system will last for decades with very little maintenance, unlike a battery. Hydraulic power has the advantage that mechanical systems using it can be cheaper than electrically driven alternatives. They tend to be lighter as well with higher power density. This is why people use compressed air tools. Hydraulic reservoirs could be charged using simple mechanical wind pumps, with just one or two moving parts, much cheaper and easier to make than a wind turbine equipped with an alternator. A washing machine powered by hydraulic force, would need a simple hydraulic motor made from injection molded plastic, rather than a heavy electric motor with internal magnets and copper coils.

I wonder if the world is taking the wrong course with renewable energy. The advantage of wind power is that it can be exploited by very simple systems, with just a few moving parts, made from low energy materials like stone, wood and a little carbon steel for bearings. It is the sort of system that you can build yourself with basic skills, without a PhD in physics and millions of pounds in development funds. None of that is true for a gas turbine or a nuclear reactor or even a steam plant with a biomass or coal boiler. And with a home made wind turbine, that power can be produced where it is needed, if not always when it is needed. Mechanical power harvested locally can be used directly, without the complication and expense of converting it into electricity. Commercial wind turbines are hugely complex, computer controlled systems. They have hydraulic pitch and yaw control built into the blades, which must be tapered carbon fibre composites to withstand rotational forces. The fatigue life of the blades is about fifteen years. The steel tower might get twenty, depending on the environment. These system appears to build complexity into something whose advantage lies in its simplicity. Just a few things to think about perhaps as we head into an age of energy scarcity.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-02-21 00:15:45)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-02-21 06:13:44

So maybe since we already use for hundreds of years sands and dust in things like hourglass and egg timers with shifting the sands on Mars and Duststroms someone will soon figure out how to make Dust Storm Energy or Sand Energy? There are lots of places on Earth that get little sunshine, the Aleutian islands, Bellingham Washington State, Juneau Alaska, Taipei Taiwan, Edinburgh Scotland, Faroe Islands, Bogota Colombia, 'Cold Bay' comes to mind of some of those places of least sunlight. The futurist dreams have dreamed of concepts like Fusion Reactors powering Martian Colonies and other almost 'scifi' concepts. We do not have fusion power...yet... and you might not get much power from this old method but as a back up it is better than nothing.

Although this board tends to focus on Mars we do look at other areas of science and 'Rain Energy' could be very useful on the Moon Titan which is more like a 'Planet' than a Moon. If we could figure out how to travel greater distances faster and deal with its temperature of 94 K or −290 °F

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-02-21 06:28:10)

kbd512 · 2022-02-21 09:45:35

Louis,

It's an interesting idea, but again, how much power will it generate per square meter, how much does the collection equipment cost, what's the maintenance cost, and how many new infrastructure additions are required to make up for the fact that intermittent power is not a reliable base load electricity source?

Those of us with the most pedestrian engineering knowledge or experience keep asking the same basic questions over and over again, because the answers to those questions determine how feasible the end result is. All I've seen thus far is failure after failure after failure. A power plant that does not produce power at least 50% of the time is an expensive novelty that costs money, consumes energy and resources used to create and maintain it, and doesn't solve any of our existing power provisioning problems. We have real power plants that don't consume fossil fuels, but those power plants are all heat engines (solar thermal / nuclear thermal / geothermal) with one exception- hydroelectric.

Thus far, using intermittent energy requires a photovoltaic array for when the Sun is shining, a wind turbine array for when the wind is blowing, a short term Lithium-ion battery for the incredible power spikes caused by photovoltaics and wind turbines, a long term Iron-air storage battery for periods without significant solar or wind energy (admittedly rare, but they do happen and the power grid can't come to a screeching halt and require months to restart after they do), and now the addition of a rain power device for when it rains- all in a vain attempt to replace reliable 24/7/365 fossil fuel and nuclear energy.

After all of that equipment and its embodied energy fails to overcome the intermittency and storage issue, as it already has everywhere it's been tried, on top of the existing energy consumption problem we will be burning even more fossil fuels to compensate for the fact that all of this new power generating infrastructure still requires a heat engine backup running 24/7/365. Some of us think we should simply cut out all of that costly non-workable infrastructure, and go directly to reliable energy sources. If you have night terrors over nuclear power from Hollyweird movies and can't distinguish performative art from nuclear engineering practices, then go after solar thermal or geothermal and/or tidal power.

SpaceNut · 2022-02-21 10:09:52

Sure damming of streams will make its rain storms last longer but during the summer when rain is at a low level these streams will be still dry and idle for power production.
I am surprised that tidal power is not being developed more as that is constant with its flow in and out of ocean inlets to the ends of these rivers where the water mixes.

louis · 2022-02-21 20:11:57

It's nothing to do with that. Read my post.

SpaceNut wrote:

I have seen several of these small rain power systems that run off from collected water run off from a roof into a gutter. They can for a short span of time make 500 watts at the most as its all about mass and length of downward movement. Its this potential of energy that is at the roof level that makes the small turbine move until all the water is gone. The power generators are usually home made pelton spoon shaped surfaces fashion around a shaft shaped wheel.
here is another of the rain gutter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6oNxckjEiE
https://www.popsci.com/electricity-gene … invention/

louis · 2022-02-21 20:13:45

It's nothing to do with what Spacenut is talking about. It's not a form of micro hydro. It's to do with the electrical charge in rain.

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Louis and SpaceNut re new topic ....
At first, I was surprised at the thought of (possibly) harnessing rainfall to make power, but (upon reflection) i realized that rainfall is constant in some locations on Earth, and it is reliably abundant during monsoon season in others, so that even a 500 watt generator would be capable of operation for 24 hours a day for substantial periods of time.
For SpaceNut ... thanks for the additional links!
(th)

louis · 2022-02-21 20:15:17

Hi - you're back after I'm back. No surprise there. And you're immediately off topic. No surprise there.

Mars_B4_Moon wrote:

So maybe since we already use for hundreds of years sands and dust in things like hourglass and egg timers with shifting the sands on Mars and Duststroms someone will soon figure out how to make Dust Storm Energy or Sand Energy? There are lots of places on Earth that get little sunshine, the Aleutian islands, Bellingham Washington State, Juneau Alaska, Taipei Taiwan, Edinburgh Scotland, Faroe Islands, Bogota Colombia, 'Cold Bay' comes to mind of some of those places of least sunlight. The futurist dreams have dreamed of concepts like Fusion Reactors powering Martian Colonies and other almost 'scifi' concepts. We do not have fusion power...yet... and you might not get much power from this old method but as a back up it is better than nothing.
Although this board tends to focus on Mars we do look at other areas of science and 'Rain Energy' could be very useful on the Moon Titan which is more like a 'Planet' than a Moon. If we could figure out how to travel greater distances faster and deal with its temperature of 94 K or −290 °F

louis · 2022-02-21 20:21:39

Yep this is not about micro-hydro.

In some countries rainfall is surprisingly regular. I remember on a Caribbean island the rain used to arrive at 2pm pretty much every day.

I am not saying this is a total game changer. It probably has a role to play in countries where rainfall is pretty much guaranteed. I think over the tropics it is pretty much a daily occurrence. It might have a role to play in areas like NW Europe where sunshine tends to alternate with rain.

It's just an interesting technology that is probably worth backing along with others like infrared harvesting, osmosis energy and various technologies that show promise.

Calliban wrote:

Yeah. Up to 50W/m2. That would be OK if it were all the time, or even a large part of the time. But you only get that 50W/m2 during heavy rain. What percentage of the time does that happen? Actually not that much. We like to moan about the weather here in blighty, but we don't get heavy rain as often as we like to pretend. I noted that this new device uses indium foil as well. I have to wonder, what does this do that a PV panel does not? We get sunlight at some intensity every day. We might wait a week or more for rain. Longer in summer. I don't like to be negative, but this sounds like something you hear about once and then never again. A scientific curiosity. Maybe a few niche applications exist?
There is untapped potential for micro-hydro in most countries. But rain water falling on any collection device has pitiful power density. Streams and rivers collect water from a broad water shed, many times larger than the river itself. I have wondered on occasion, if we could exploit differences in ground water levels to generate power. That really would be small scale generation (a few tens of watts). But it could be built in a lot of places and sometimes, a few tens of Watts may be enough. You will never power a national grid with power levels like that. But maybe it would be useful for some off grid applications.
Micro pumped storage has options as well. 1 tonne of water, raised by 10m, stores 98KJ (27Wh) of potential energy. Raise it by 100m, and energy density is a more respectable 0.27kWh/tonne. This is low energy density compared to a battery, but the system will last for decades with very little maintenance, unlike a battery. Hydraulic power has the advantage that mechanical systems using it can be cheaper than electrically driven alternatives. They tend to be lighter as well with higher power density. This is why people use compressed air tools. Hydraulic reservoirs could be charged using simple mechanical wind pumps, with just one or two moving parts, much cheaper and easier to make than a wind turbine equipped with an alternator. A washing machine powered by hydraulic force, would need a simple hydraulic motor made from injection molded plastic, rather than a heavy electric motor with internal magnets and copper coils.
I wonder if the world is taking the wrong course with renewable energy. The advantage of wind power is that it can be exploited by very simple systems, with just a few moving parts, made from low energy materials like stone, wood and a little carbon steel for bearings. It is the sort of system that you can build yourself with basic skills, without a PhD in physics and millions of pounds in development funds. None of that is true for a gas turbine or a nuclear reactor or even a steam plant with a biomass or coal boiler. And with a home made wind turbine, that power can be produced where it is needed, if not always when it is needed. Mechanical power harvested locally can be used directly, without the complication and expense of converting it into electricity. Commercial wind turbines are hugely complex, computer controlled systems. They have hydraulic pitch and yaw control built into the blades, which must be tapered carbon fibre composites to withstand rotational forces. The fatigue life of the blades is about fifteen years. The steel tower might get twenty, depending on the environment. These system appears to build complexity into something whose advantage lies in its simplicity. Just a few things to think about perhaps as we head into an age of energy scarcity.

SpaceNut · 2022-02-21 21:39:49

Louis the first 110 seconds or so of the video was exactly that and I stopped watching....

Droplets are not rain in the sense of collecting but are a mass force impact of which the size and mass are not all the same when it is raining. Let alone the droplet density across a square meter of deployed collecting element.

Power that is sub 10,000 watt is indeed micro power.

Any collecting of rain droplets is not going to be what you portray as that is water in an amount.

That said adding water to metal plates is a flow battery as its the water charge which you are collecting via its flow through the elements.

I will need to watch the video on my cellphone in full but that is the gist of what I got without it.

https://journals.ametsoc.org/view/journ … 0_co_2.xml

Simultaneous surface measurements of the sign and magnitude of the free charge on individual raindrops, the electric field and precipitation rate have been made. ... The average measured free charge brought down by positively charged rain was 0.022 esu per drop, and by negatively charged rain was 0.031 esu per drop.

esu is electrostatic system of units or the charge between plates which is a surface area.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10. … v19i3.9811
Electric charge on raindrops grown in warm clouds over the island of Hawaii

vacuum tube amplifier wow

kbd512 · 2022-02-22 01:20:00

Louis,

We could spend money on literally everything that looks interesting, except that little to none of it will ever amount to civilization-level power production within our lifetimes. Sticking a pair of electrodes on either side of a grid for rainwater to fall through will never do anything useful to run any form of technologically advanced society. We already have intermittent power generation galore from photovoltaics and wind turbines. There was never a question about whether or not power from sunlight or wind or running water exists, rather how to extract enough of that power with the efficiency required to perpetuate that technologically advanced society. The real issues are how long those power generation machines last in operation, how much they cost to produce and maintain, the high natural resource consumption associated with manufacturing them both now and in the future, and what humanity actually requires to create stable electric power grids.

There are five pillars of modern technologically advanced societies:

1. Clean running water for human consumption
2. Centralized heating and air conditioning to create a comfortable environment, if only to allow for a good night's sleep
3. The thermal and electrical power to run the machinery that makes and distributes food / clothing / other essentials like medicine
4. Sufficient education and health care to permit society's membership to thrive
5. Sufficient excess capacity or wealth (in all its forms) to perpetuate that system into the foreseeable future

What does electric power from rainfall add to any of this?

Not a thing. Triboelectric power a scientific curiosity and nothing more.

Calliban · 2022-02-22 03:21:33

Maybe it will have niche applications in specific locations? Things like off grid power. I am inclined to doubt it, as I don't see how a rain energy device can outperform bog standard PV panels that are now heavily commercialised.

The world is running into serious energy supply problems now. Conventional oil and gas production no longer meet demand. There just aren't that many conventional deposits left that aren't already producing. Discoveries of offshore oil and gas have been shrinking for decades - it is getting more and more difficult to discover sizable new deposits that can be extracted profitably. Unconventional oil and gas are expensive to develop and refiners are either unable or are unwilling to pay the prices that allow this to be developed profitably. Oil and gas companies are caught between a rock and a hard place. Rising oil development costs on the one hand and the limited affordable price of oil by consumers on the other. Activist investors and stupid government policies make it even more difficult for these companies to develop new supplies. Somewhere along the line, people lost sight of the fact that their lives and prosperity depend upon the supply of abundant hydrocarbon fuels.

Alternative energy sources like coal, nuclear or the various renewable energy schemes, are either hamstrung by regulation (coal and nuclear), effected by depletion (coal), weak and intermittent (renewables) and are generally not suitable as transportation energy sources. Hydrogen is often cited as an alternative to fossil fuels in mobile applications. It's physical properties, low energy density and the energy cost of producing it, make it wholly impractical in most application. All of the same limitations apply to batteries as both stationary and mobile energy stores.

The world needs to start paying serious attention to these problems. There are no easily identifiable alternatives to oil derived liquid fuels as a transportation fuels as things stand. Low power density scientific curiosities really aren't going to power industries and haul freight around the country.

One thing I suspect the US will ultimately fall back on is its rail transportation system. The US has an extensive rail network that is freight oriented (see link below).
http://www.destination360.com/travel/ra … ad-map.jpg

Direct fuel consumption of rail freight per tonne-km is about one 1/12th that of heavy truck transportation. The US railway network has links to most major cities. I think this is an obvious part of any sustainable energy solution. Trains could be fuelled with diesel, or even converted to run on gasoline, LPG, biofuels, biomass derived liquid fuels, liquefied natural gas, or even hydrogen. Electric using catenary systems is an option for rail as well. Third rail systems aren't really powerful enough for this application.

None of this addresses the problems we are running into with electricity supply. But a restructuring of American industry to a more rail based transportation solution, would go a long way to reducing the impact of declining liquid fuel supply. Battery electric powered heavy trucks have a critical range problem and charging them would strain and already overloaded grid. If rail can be relied upon for long range freight transportation, trucks powered by batteries, gasoline, LPG or compressed natural gas, begin to look more practical as local distribution options between customers and the rail freight yard.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-02-22 04:29:11)

tahanson43206 · 2024-08-26 05:16:48

This topic popped up when I was looking for topics that contain the word "rain". I read it from the top. Louis sure was (and may still be) an optimist. He took a drubbing from almost everyone who took the time to comment.

I'm hoping a NewMars member might find this curious topic worth an update. I would be surprised if anything came of the discovery that Louis brought to our attention, but a couple of years have gone by, and there are folks in this world who are willing to take the risk of investigating aspects of nature that are not familiar.

(th)

Calliban · 2024-08-26 13:54:02

The original youtube video is gone, but here is another discussing the same thing.
https://youtu.be/NPEomzHgtvo?si=dckgCCryEXboWzDP

The main problem with this idea is the very low average power output per square metre - 50W/m2 and only when its raining. Even in the UK, it is actually only raining a few percent of the time. So time-average power density is miniscule.

With these sort of inventions I often wonder if there are niche applcations. In this case, applications where we want very small amounts of power, offgrid, where this could make a contribution. The problem is that even in the UK on a dark and rainy winters day, a PV panel will produce more electrical energy per square metre than a triboelectric rain panel. And at all other times of the year it will generate considerably more. So it is hard to see what niche this invention could actually fill that a PV panel could not do better.

Slightly off topic, I do think rainwater is an under-utilised resource. In the US and UK, we wash and flush our toilets with drinking water. This water must be treated, piped and flourinated at considerable expense. If your water supply is metered, catching and using rainwater for some of your household water needs could save money. My father has a grey water recycling scheme in his house. Shower and dishwater, is either used to water garden plants or recycled into toilets. He captures and stores rainwater from his roof and uses it for garden water and toilet water. Since implimenting this his water bill has gone down considerably. Rainwater may not be a very effective energy source, but storing and using it could reduce our societal energy requirements, albeit only slightly.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-08-26 14:06:23)

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#1 2022-02-20 19:44:46

Rain Energy - the next big leap forward?

#2 2022-02-20 20:39:28

Re: Rain Energy - the next big leap forward?

#3 2022-02-20 20:51:13

Re: Rain Energy - the next big leap forward?

#4 2022-02-20 23:25:14

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#5 2022-02-21 06:13:44

Re: Rain Energy - the next big leap forward?

#6 2022-02-21 09:45:35

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#7 2022-02-21 10:09:52

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#8 2022-02-21 20:11:57

Re: Rain Energy - the next big leap forward?

#9 2022-02-21 20:13:45

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#10 2022-02-21 20:15:17

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#11 2022-02-21 20:21:39

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#12 2022-02-21 21:39:49

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#13 2022-02-22 01:20:00

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#14 2022-02-22 03:21:33

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#15 2024-08-26 05:16:48

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